Yamaha 354 or JPRath 231

icaro · by **icaro** » 2020-12-29 7:09 p.m.

Hi any advice? Am very much a beginner, have a student Bach and an old B&H, (and a ridiculously old Courtois which if didn't have a sawbone slide exudes quality and has a really clear tone). See myself as playing mainly jazz, cannot see myself in an orchestra, possibly a wind band to improve. (Ideally would love to have King 3B...), but hear good things about both the JPR and the Yammy. Of course I realise that I could probably do just as well putting a mouthpiece on a hosepipe for now ...but I am sure having a decent horn makes learning the more rewarding /pleasurable though and maybe motivating though the doldrums.

Cotboneman · by **Cotboneman** » 2020-12-29 7:44 p.m.

They are both in the same price range, I believe, but the Yamaha 354 has a much longer track record. You couldn't go wrong with it. I'm a fan of the JP/Rath brand though, and own a 3320, which has been an outstanding large bore horn for me. The Yamaha is likely more readily available, so I'd explore that first to see how you like it.

Posaunus · by **Posaunus** » 2020-12-29 7:45 p.m.

For a beginner, it's more important to have an instrument that is easy to play / does not hold you back.

For a trombone, this pretty much means that you want an excellent, smooth slide, and a halfway decent (appropriately-sized) mouthpiece.

This can be achieved with a "student" Yamaha trombone (such as the YSL-354), King (606), or Bach (TB300) just as well as a ("professional") King 3B.

If your slide is not good, you will not enjoy playing the instrument. Then you should take the trombone to a good tech for slide alignment, etc. – or acquire a trombone with a good slide.

I have a "student" King 606 that plays as well as most "professional" trombones, and would not hesitate to play it on a paying gig. Others say the same about the Yamaha 354.

Neo_Bri · by **Neo_Bri** » 2020-12-29 8:25 p.m.

Pick up a used 354. They can be had for not too much and are great horns.

Hobart · by **Hobart** » 2020-12-29 8:55 p.m.

The Yamaha 354, like a Toyota, combines the best of both worlds: Good and cheap. It will certainly serve you well, they're very easy to find used because everybody and their brother starts on them, and they aren't difficult to sell either because Yamaha is a quality brand. You could possibly get away with the older 351 and 352 as well, but early Yamaha horns have issues with the quality of chrome plating on the slides.

It is worth saying, however, to make sure that the slide is good on the 354 before you buy it. A fifth grader who quit band isn't as inclined to take care of his slide as much as a professional seller. It is not hard to find a 354 with a good slide, and it is a lot of horn for a small amount of money.

Neo_Bri · by **Neo_Bri** » 2020-12-29 8:58 p.m.

[quote="icaro"]Hi any advice? Am very much a beginner, have a student Bach and an old B&H, (and a ridiculously old Courtois which if didn't have a sawbone slide exudes quality and has a really clear tone). See myself as playing mainly jazz, cannot see myself in an orchestra, possibly a wind band to improve. (Ideally would love to have King 3B...), but hear good things about both the JPR and the Yammy. Of course I realise that I could probably do just as well putting a mouthpiece on a hosepipe for now ...but I am sure having a decent horn makes learning the more rewarding /pleasurable though and maybe motivating though the doldrums.[/quote]

Also, the JPRath horns are quite good, but don't come up as often used and for not as good a price.

brumpone · by **brumpone** » 2020-12-30 12:51 a.m.

If it’s a straight up choice between the 354 (.500) and the 231 (.525), would the bore size influence anyone’s decision? JP Rath’s .500 is the 230.

Hobart · by **Hobart** » 2020-12-30 1:25 a.m.

[quote="brumpone"]If it’s a straight up choice between the 354 (.500) and the 231 (.525), would the bore size influence anyone’s decision? JP Rath’s .500 is the 230.[/quote]

If you mainly play jazz, the Yamaha is still a better bet. Although the 231 has a bore size for more classical repertoire and may be more versatile, the Yamaha 354 (and its identical twin, the 200), despite being a student horn, is often used by players at jazz gigs where they don't want a nicer horn being damaged. There are members on this forum who have won auditions on a 354.

I'm no professional, but I own one myself. I would make the argument it's one of the best student horns ever made (along with certain Conn Directors). It plays way better than the price would have you believe, is easy to sell, and is easy to find parts for. It's been the student horn for years now, they're easy to find, they play great, and they have the Yamaha consistency to them. It might not be a King 3B, it's not a Cadillac of a horn, but you're paying a tenth of the price for a horn that's 99% as good. I'd recommend the Yamaha 354 to anybody. You simply can't go wrong for $200.

TLDR: For jazz, the bore size makes me pick the Yamaha even more. It's a fantastic horn for the price and easy to sell if you don't like it. If you're going to play more classical repertoire, consider the 231, but if your main focus is jazz the 354 will serve you well.

Doug_Elliott · by **Doug_Elliott** » 2020-12-30 1:55 a.m.

Get the Yamaha.

icaro · by **icaro** » 2020-12-30 4:04 a.m.

Looks like pretty much 50:50 but Yamaha wins out. You can't look for a second hand entry horn without tripping over 354's. (One factor maybe also that I live v close to the John Packer HQ and shop). That point about bore size has set me thinking also. Thank you so much.

ithinknot · by **ithinknot** » 2020-12-30 5:34 a.m.

Used 354. Inexpensive, available, equally easy to sell on as/if/when.

If you decide you want a .525, then the price of a new JPR would easily get you a used Bach 36, or Yamaha 630 (or, for even less, the 'intermediate' 445).

Just like the smaller Yamaha, used examples of these are essentially free to own, whereas anything new and Chinese means you're taking a relatively substantial depreciation hit as soon as the return window closes. Absolutely no criticism of the Packer instrument - I haven't tried it - just a procedural point, especially at the moment when 'trying before you buy' may be less feasible.

spencercarran · by **spencercarran** » 2020-12-31 12:57 a.m.

Yamaha, no question. The 354 has extremely good build quality and plays unreasonably well for something marketed as a "student" instrument.

[quote="Hobart"]Although the 231 has a bore size for more classical repertoire and may be more versatile...

[snip]

If you're going to play more classical repertoire, consider the 231, but if your main focus is jazz the 354 will serve you well.[/quote]
I'd go even further than this - if your classical playing is primarily in a community wind band setting, the Yamaha with a medium sized mouthpiece can get a big enough sound to fit properly. Bigger trombone might be necessary in an orchestral setting, but OP said they wanted to play jazz and maybe some wind band and for that purpose a 354 is completely fine.

icaro · by **icaro** » 2020-12-31 4:11 a.m.

The overwhelming opinion is for the Y354 I would be fool to ignore it! (Have been reading around though and found one teacherwho prefers Holton TR602 over Y 354 - https://norlanbewley.com/ . Must say have never heard of the Holton, not at all common, but there is one s/h going at a low price...).

BGuttman · by **BGuttman** » 2020-12-31 9:22 a.m.

Holton TR-602 is a competent student grade horn. Comparable to the King 606. Very good first horn.

deanmccarty · by **deanmccarty** » 2020-12-31 3:47 p.m.

For a beginner I would go with the Yamaha... it is a .500 bore. The JPRath is a .525 bore. The entire instrument will be more comfortable for the student... the airflow, the hand grip, and the weight.

icaro · by **icaro** » 2021-01-02 6:38 a.m.

Anyone know what a Yammy 'M1' is? Looks like another name for the 354? Can't tell.

Vegasbound · by **Vegasbound** » 2021-01-02 6:53 a.m.

Try them both, buy the one you like the best

icaro · by **icaro** » 2021-01-02 7:02 a.m.

Will be for sure buying s/h remotely - not ideal - always a risk...but opportunities to test play so limited with COVID too

Vegasbound · by **Vegasbound** » 2021-01-02 9:34 a.m.

I would chat to DJ he may have a 3b in your price range, and he is the trombone whisperer

icaro · by **icaro** » 2021-01-02 9:57 a.m.

How do I find DJ? Thanks!

Vegasbound · by **Vegasbound** » 2021-01-02 10:01 a.m.

DJ Kennedy members list

djkennedy · by **djkennedy** » 2021-01-02 10:24 a.m.

Ssssssshhhhhh

Do you hear what I hear?????????

A horn a horn sleeping thru the night

With a slide that’s shiny and bright!!!!!

Live the Dream

Oh listen to the tone so full and familiar

The sound of classic JJ

Make it so!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

djkennedy · by **djkennedy** » 2021-01-02 10:50 a.m.

Did I post here or ???????t

Okokokkklklooo

Yamaha does not consider the 354 as a

“Student “ Horn the MSRP

certainly suggests not however the 606

Nickle slide has a similar MSRP

—-/—///////—////

Both are great as are many other clones

Of the 6H 8”flare 500/500

—————

Jazz is more about the music and musician

The instrument is the means of communication of ideas

djkennedy · by **djkennedy** » 2021-01-02 11:41 a.m.

3B Menu

djkennedy · by **djkennedy** » 2021-01-02 11:43 a.m.

Menu There are addditions now

Posaunus · by **Posaunus** » 2021-01-02 11:52 a.m.

[quote="djkennedy"]3B Menu[/quote]

DJ,

Thanks. You have just made a lot of trombonists salivate!

CharlieB · by **CharlieB** » 2021-01-02 12:09 p.m.

Yikes !!!!!

DJ doing pictures now ????

A new world order is upon us.

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Yamaha 354 or JPRath 231