Embochure fatigue
- Crazytrombonist505
- Posts: 236
- Joined: Mar 27, 2018
Hey fellow chatters! So for the past week and a half or so my embochure has been feeling more fatigued than normal very early on while practicing. My playing in general hasn't been as good either because of it and it's starting to become very frustrating. I contacted my professor about it and explained the situation to him, and he suggested being careful and doing a few 20 min sessions with large breaks in between and breaks within the 20 mins. I've also tried using an ice pack periodically on my lips (for short periods of time obviously) and putting a muscle reliever cream on the muscles around my lips. I've been doing this for the last day or two and haven't noticed any major changes for better or worse.
I plan on trying to keep practicing to a minimum for now and see if anything improves, but my question is has anyone else experienced this issue at some point? Are there any other things I should be doing or doing differently? I've heard of the embochure overdose syndrome, but what I'm experiencing doesn't seem as bad as the symptoms of that. Any insight would be most welcome!
I plan on trying to keep practicing to a minimum for now and see if anything improves, but my question is has anyone else experienced this issue at some point? Are there any other things I should be doing or doing differently? I've heard of the embochure overdose syndrome, but what I'm experiencing doesn't seem as bad as the symptoms of that. Any insight would be most welcome!
- LeTromboniste
- Posts: 1634
- Joined: Apr 11, 2018
What is your usual practice regimen like?
Did you play more than usual on one or several days recently, and how much more?
Did you play less over the holidays than usual?
Did you play more than usual on one or several days recently, and how much more?
Did you play less over the holidays than usual?
- Crazytrombonist505
- Posts: 236
- Joined: Mar 27, 2018
[quote="LeTromboniste"]What is your usual practice regimen like?
Did you play more than usual on one or several days recently, and how much more?
Did you play less over the holidays than usual?[/quote]
This past semester I was playing anywhere from an hour and a half to two and a half hours every day except sundays. That inculdes group playing and individual practice. I don't think I played that much more than normal. In fact, I remember taking several days off over the past few weeks. So yes, this year I played much less over the holidays than I had been doing for several months.
Did you play more than usual on one or several days recently, and how much more?
Did you play less over the holidays than usual?[/quote]
This past semester I was playing anywhere from an hour and a half to two and a half hours every day except sundays. That inculdes group playing and individual practice. I don't think I played that much more than normal. In fact, I remember taking several days off over the past few weeks. So yes, this year I played much less over the holidays than I had been doing for several months.
- Doug_Elliott
- Posts: 4155
- Joined: Mar 22, 2018
The one most likely cause is your mouth is too open. Sometimes that happens if you're doing a different kind of playing, or in a different room, or on different equipment, or if you are trying to open up your sound and that's the wrong way to do it.
But it could be other things too.
I do Skype lessons if you're interested
But it could be other things too.
I do Skype lessons if you're interested
- harrisonreed
- Posts: 6479
- Joined: Aug 17, 2018
[quote="Doug Elliott"]The one most likely cause is your mouth is too open. Sometimes that happens if you're doing a different kind of playing, or in a different room, or on different equipment, or if you are trying to open up your sound and that's the wrong way to do it.
But it could be other things too.
I do Skype lessons if you're interested[/quote]
I have heard for decades that having your teeth too close together is a bad thing. I am tied of hearing teachers say this. Doug is 100% correct.
When I moved to a larger mouthpiece diameter, this counterintuitively allowed me to play with my jaw higher and teeth slightly more together. So much more relaxed.
But it could be other things too.
I do Skype lessons if you're interested[/quote]
I have heard for decades that having your teeth too close together is a bad thing. I am tied of hearing teachers say this. Doug is 100% correct.
When I moved to a larger mouthpiece diameter, this counterintuitively allowed me to play with my jaw higher and teeth slightly more together. So much more relaxed.
- Basbasun
- Posts: 496
- Joined: Mar 26, 2018
How open is to much? How close is to little? I have hade many students with both to close and to open mouth. I have meet and played with fantastic players with very close mouth, other with very open mouth, sometimes more open than I thought was possible, And, playing very good! When teachers say it is a bad thing to have your teeth to close, what do they mean by that? To much space between the teeth? Or between the lips? Who is saying that? I have not heard that very much.
I have a frieand who do exercises called "whisper tones", playing with the teeth completely closed. I tried that, I found that I can play three octaves that way, but that sound would not be much payed for though. I heard some stories about some teacher asking the student to play with a space of 2 cm between the teeth, that maybe a rumor that I can not count for, I tried that (the corona make me try lots of stupid things) tha is absolutely imposible for me. But I have meet a trombone player who could do that beautifully.
I think the face muscles, lip size, teeth size and the space i n the mouth make very big differences.
To practise 20 minute sets is a very good idea I think, and rest as much as you practise is also a good idea.
If you have a cold or other bad health it will absolutely give you an embouchure faique. How do you sleep?
I have a frieand who do exercises called "whisper tones", playing with the teeth completely closed. I tried that, I found that I can play three octaves that way, but that sound would not be much payed for though. I heard some stories about some teacher asking the student to play with a space of 2 cm between the teeth, that maybe a rumor that I can not count for, I tried that (the corona make me try lots of stupid things) tha is absolutely imposible for me. But I have meet a trombone player who could do that beautifully.
I think the face muscles, lip size, teeth size and the space i n the mouth make very big differences.
To practise 20 minute sets is a very good idea I think, and rest as much as you practise is also a good idea.
If you have a cold or other bad health it will absolutely give you an embouchure faique. How do you sleep?
- slideman
- Posts: 11
- Joined: Jan 13, 2021
[quote="harrisonreed"]
When I moved to a larger mouthpiece diameter, this counterintuitively allowed me to play with my jaw higher and teeth slightly more together. So much more relaxed.[/quote]
To get my desired sound from a small mouthpiece requires my teeth to be relatively far apart. A smaller mouthpiece makes articulation easier for me.
When I moved to a larger mouthpiece diameter, this counterintuitively allowed me to play with my jaw higher and teeth slightly more together. So much more relaxed.[/quote]
To get my desired sound from a small mouthpiece requires my teeth to be relatively far apart. A smaller mouthpiece makes articulation easier for me.
- baileyman
- Posts: 1169
- Joined: Mar 24, 2018
Wonderful thread illustrating how what works for on may not work for another.
- BGuttman
- Posts: 7368
- Joined: Mar 22, 2018
[quote="baileyman"]Wonderful thread illustrating how what works for on may not work for another.[/quote]
To quote Sam Burtis (Sabutin): Try everything. Use what works -- for you.
To quote Sam Burtis (Sabutin): Try everything. Use what works -- for you.
- Kbiggs
- Posts: 1768
- Joined: Mar 24, 2018
Progress in any endeavour—art, athletics, mental health, economic, matters of faith, etc.—is never linear. Expect setbacks as you develop, and expect periods of development following each setback.
- Posaunus
- Posts: 5018
- Joined: Mar 23, 2018
[quote="BGuttman"]To quote Sam Burtis (Sabutin): Try everything. Use what works -- for you.[/quote]
Anyone else miss Sam's commentaries?
Anyone else miss Sam's commentaries?
- ArbanRubank
- Posts: 424
- Joined: Feb 23, 2019
Sam has a unique way of expressing himself and is living proof that there is more than one effective approach to playing.
- harrisonreed
- Posts: 6479
- Joined: Aug 17, 2018
[quote="Posaunus"]<QUOTE author="BGuttman" post_id="137193" time="1610642147" user_id="53">
To quote Sam Burtis (Sabutin): Try everything. Use what works -- for you.[/quote]
Anyone else miss Sam's commentaries?
</QUOTE>
Yeah. Miss the guy
To quote Sam Burtis (Sabutin): Try everything. Use what works -- for you.[/quote]
Anyone else miss Sam's commentaries?
</QUOTE>
Yeah. Miss the guy
- Crazytrombonist505
- Posts: 236
- Joined: Mar 27, 2018
Would perhaps having a wider rim than what I'm used to on a certain mouthpiece possibly cause issues? I ask because I recently started experiementing with a different bass mouthpiece with a wider rim and different shape than what I normally play with. My other bass mouthpieces have always had similar rims to my tenor pieces even though they are a tad wider.
- Doug_Elliott
- Posts: 4155
- Joined: Mar 22, 2018
Yes. Refer to my previous post.
- SwissTbone
- Posts: 1138
- Joined: Mar 23, 2018
[quote="Burgerbob"]If you miss Sam's monologues, he's still on facebook.[/quote]
Sorry. I will get off topic here.
I think this post is not really respectful. I always really appreciated Sam's posts. He was one of the most thought provoking contributors on TTF and had valuable input to a lot of subjects.
I really preferred his well written and thought out posts to most short - and often consciously provocative - posts I read here by some contributors who could give some more wisdom given their experience. Sam gave a lot of his time for free. His opinions were sometimes off the beaten path and that's not always what people wanted to read. But his posts had always something to them.
Yes, I miss him on here. I even invited him to join TC when it went online. But he didn't want to. Probably because people are lacking respect.
Sorry. I will get off topic here.
I think this post is not really respectful. I always really appreciated Sam's posts. He was one of the most thought provoking contributors on TTF and had valuable input to a lot of subjects.
I really preferred his well written and thought out posts to most short - and often consciously provocative - posts I read here by some contributors who could give some more wisdom given their experience. Sam gave a lot of his time for free. His opinions were sometimes off the beaten path and that's not always what people wanted to read. But his posts had always something to them.
Yes, I miss him on here. I even invited him to join TC when it went online. But he didn't want to. Probably because people are lacking respect.
- baileyman
- Posts: 1169
- Joined: Mar 24, 2018
[quote="SwissTbone"]<QUOTE author="Burgerbob" post_id="137229" time="1610669353" user_id="3131">
If you miss Sam's monologues, he's still on facebook.[/quote]
... I even invited him to join TC when it went online. But he didn't want to. Probably because people are lacking respect.
</QUOTE>
Did the same. He told me people seemed more interested in learning and exploration on FB. Perhaps he tried everything, and that's what worked.
If you miss Sam's monologues, he's still on facebook.[/quote]
... I even invited him to join TC when it went online. But he didn't want to. Probably because people are lacking respect.
</QUOTE>
Did the same. He told me people seemed more interested in learning and exploration on FB. Perhaps he tried everything, and that's what worked.
- Wilktone
- Posts: 720
- Joined: Mar 27, 2018
[quote="BGuttman"]Try everything. Use what works -- for you.[/quote]
I'm really not a fan of this quip. I don't need to rub bird poop on my head to know it won't help me grow hair, so I'm not going to try it.
Likewise, there are plenty of ways that brass players go about playing that seem like they are working at first, but ultimately end up making it harder to play in the long term. For example, you want a open and dark sound, open your jaw a little while you play. As Doug points out, however, this can lead to tiring out faster.
What we want to do if try those things that experienced players and teachers find works better in the long term and try that first. Practice time is hard enough to come by that we don't need to be spending our time on things that may not help.
I'm really not a fan of this quip. I don't need to rub bird poop on my head to know it won't help me grow hair, so I'm not going to try it.
Likewise, there are plenty of ways that brass players go about playing that seem like they are working at first, but ultimately end up making it harder to play in the long term. For example, you want a open and dark sound, open your jaw a little while you play. As Doug points out, however, this can lead to tiring out faster.
What we want to do if try those things that experienced players and teachers find works better in the long term and try that first. Practice time is hard enough to come by that we don't need to be spending our time on things that may not help.
- timothy42b
- Posts: 1812
- Joined: Mar 27, 2018
[quote="baileyman"]<QUOTE author="SwissTbone" post_id="138103" time="1611312357" user_id="62">
... I even invited him to join TC when it went online. But he didn't want to. Probably because people are lacking respect.[/quote]
Did the same. He told me people seemed more interested in learning and exploration on FB. Perhaps he tried everything, and that's what worked.
</QUOTE>
There were some very accomplished and thoughtful people on that FB trombone page. i was there for a while, got attacked one too many times mostly by younger members and decided i didn't need the aggravation. I think Sam is still there.
... I even invited him to join TC when it went online. But he didn't want to. Probably because people are lacking respect.[/quote]
Did the same. He told me people seemed more interested in learning and exploration on FB. Perhaps he tried everything, and that's what worked.
</QUOTE>
There were some very accomplished and thoughtful people on that FB trombone page. i was there for a while, got attacked one too many times mostly by younger members and decided i didn't need the aggravation. I think Sam is still there.
- harrisonreed
- Posts: 6479
- Joined: Aug 17, 2018
Facebook is gross
- Wilktone
- Posts: 720
- Joined: Mar 27, 2018
I left the FB group too, but because an accomplished pro attacked me, so it's not just young people who cause those problems. I deleted my account on another forum a while back because a (different) accomplished pro was attacking me too much and also taking my posts from there and creating arguments on two different fora around them. Careful what you wish for.
Part of the problem with FB is that the way posts are displayed make it difficult for participants to see all the threads in context. For an active group this can make it challenging for an administrator to moderate posts and avoid those issues. This is the main reason why I prefer a more traditional bulletin board style forum, like this one.
But that's off topic.
[quote="Basbasun"]How open is to much? How close is to little?[/quote]
There are two sort of extreme ways teachers can approach communicating this. One is to recommend you keep your teeth as far apart as you can while still sounding good. The other is to suggest you keep your teeth as close as possible while still sounding good. Neither is inherently better or worse than the other, but it really depends on what the student is already doing and where she/he needs to go.
Dave
Part of the problem with FB is that the way posts are displayed make it difficult for participants to see all the threads in context. For an active group this can make it challenging for an administrator to moderate posts and avoid those issues. This is the main reason why I prefer a more traditional bulletin board style forum, like this one.
But that's off topic.
[quote="Basbasun"]How open is to much? How close is to little?[/quote]
There are two sort of extreme ways teachers can approach communicating this. One is to recommend you keep your teeth as far apart as you can while still sounding good. The other is to suggest you keep your teeth as close as possible while still sounding good. Neither is inherently better or worse than the other, but it really depends on what the student is already doing and where she/he needs to go.
Dave
- Burgerbob
- Posts: 6327
- Joined: Apr 23, 2018
[quote="SwissTbone"]<QUOTE author="Burgerbob" post_id="137229" time="1610669353" user_id="3131">
If you miss Sam's monologues, he's still on facebook.[/quote]
Sorry. I will get off topic here.
I think this post is not really respectful. I always really appreciated Sam's posts. He was one of the most thought provoking contributors on TTF and had valuable input to a lot of subjects.
</QUOTE>
I mean no disrespect. But it would be hard to call his long posts anything else!
[quote="harrisonreed"]Facebook is gross[/quote]
Much could be said the same about this forum at times. Both can be great havens of information.
If you miss Sam's monologues, he's still on facebook.[/quote]
Sorry. I will get off topic here.
I think this post is not really respectful. I always really appreciated Sam's posts. He was one of the most thought provoking contributors on TTF and had valuable input to a lot of subjects.
</QUOTE>
I mean no disrespect. But it would be hard to call his long posts anything else!
[quote="harrisonreed"]Facebook is gross[/quote]
Much could be said the same about this forum at times. Both can be great havens of information.
- Posaunus
- Posts: 5018
- Joined: Mar 23, 2018
[quote="Burgerbob"]
I mean no disrespect. But it would be hard to call [Sam's] long posts anything else [but monologues]!
Much could be said the same about this forum at times. Both can be great havens of information.[/quote]
So are we more likely to get more / better information from a well-composed, factually-supported essay ("monologue") or from a casually tossed-off quip?
Actually, either can be valuable!
I mean no disrespect. But it would be hard to call [Sam's] long posts anything else [but monologues]!
Much could be said the same about this forum at times. Both can be great havens of information.[/quote]
So are we more likely to get more / better information from a well-composed, factually-supported essay ("monologue") or from a casually tossed-off quip?
Actually, either can be valuable!
- Burgerbob
- Posts: 6327
- Joined: Apr 23, 2018
[quote="Posaunus"]<QUOTE author="Burgerbob" post_id="138187" time="1611349990" user_id="3131">
I mean no disrespect. But it would be hard to call [Sam's] long posts anything else [but monologues]!
Much could be said the same about this forum at times. Both can be great havens of information.[/quote]
So are we more likely to get more / better information from a well-composed, factually-supported essay ("monologue") or from a casually tossed-off quip?
Actually, either can be valuable!
</QUOTE>
Por que no los dos? Exactly.
Again... nothing wrong with monologues, just calling it as I see it.
I mean no disrespect. But it would be hard to call [Sam's] long posts anything else [but monologues]!
Much could be said the same about this forum at times. Both can be great havens of information.[/quote]
So are we more likely to get more / better information from a well-composed, factually-supported essay ("monologue") or from a casually tossed-off quip?
Actually, either can be valuable!
</QUOTE>
Por que no los dos? Exactly.
Again... nothing wrong with monologues, just calling it as I see it.
- harrisonreed
- Posts: 6479
- Joined: Aug 17, 2018
I calls it as I sees it. Sam said that often
- Posaunus
- Posts: 5018
- Joined: Mar 23, 2018
[quote="harrisonreed"]I calls it as I sees it. Sam said that often[/quote]
Bet on it!
Bet on it!
- afugate
- Posts: 671
- Joined: Mar 23, 2018
[quote="Wilktone"]Part of the problem with FB is that the way posts are displayed make it difficult for participants to see all the threads in context. For an active group this can make it challenging for an administrator to moderate posts and avoid those issues. This is the main reason why I prefer a more traditional bulletin board style forum, like this one.[/quote]
As someone whose day job often involves FB moderation and responding to comments, I agree 100%! FB tools are not conducive to meaningful discourse. They're intended to draw eyeballs.
Back on topic...
My endurance (and playing) improved significantly after Doug helped me change some things in my embouchure.
--Andy in OKC
As someone whose day job often involves FB moderation and responding to comments, I agree 100%! FB tools are not conducive to meaningful discourse. They're intended to draw eyeballs.
Back on topic...
My endurance (and playing) improved significantly after Doug helped me change some things in my embouchure.
--Andy in OKC