Why Do Trombonists Suck At Improvising?

hyperbolica · by **hyperbolica** » 2021-01-18 4:20 p.m.

Before you take offense, I obviously don't mean ALL trombonists, but if you take 10 trombonists, 10 trumpet players, and 10 sax players, you'll have more guys that can wail on the sax or the trumpet than on the trombone. I've heard several trombonists play and then I say "I hope I don't sound like that". And often after a sax solo, its more like "whoa, I wish I sounded like that".

Is this a real thing or just a weird perception only in my head?

And one more thing. Is it really cool to end every other phrase with a descending tritone, or do you have to be Charlie Parker to pull that off?

And one more more thing. Are great improvisers really mental chord giants, or do they just memorize solos, or do they just piece together a bunch of cool licks in every key imaginable? I mean you can't just rip off a bunch of 1/16th note scales in non-enharmonic chords while following 8 or 12 bar phrases off the top of your head, on command, realistically, can you?

baileyman · by **baileyman** » 2021-01-18 4:45 p.m.

Two possibilities:

The trombone technique necessary to play like a HS sax player is formidable.

Time. There must be something about the horn that makes one stumble over the time. Very few pros play with great time on trombone. Lots on other instruments.

BGuttman · by **BGuttman** » 2021-01-18 4:46 p.m.

Trombone players get fewer solos than trumpet players or (particularly tenor) sax players. So we don't get the practice they do.

Trumpet and sax players can do better stream of notes solos with impressive gyrations of hemi-demi-semiquavers. Try that on a trombone (except for a valve trombone). Stream of notes solos came in with BeBop and coincided with the [relative] demise of the trombone solo.

Many of the trumpet and sax solos I've been forced to listen to are generally assemblages of riffs or imitations of major soloists. It takes time and thought to create a good improvised solo. Doing it on the spot requires a lot of practice.

ithinknot · by **ithinknot** » 2021-01-18 4:53 p.m.

[quote="hyperbolica"]if you take 10 trombonists, 10 trumpet players, and 10 sax players, you'll have more guys that can wail on the sax or the trumpet than on the trombone.

... Is this a real thing or just a weird perception only in my head?[/quote]

Well, for a given calibre of professionally active 'commercial' musician, it'd be easier to get away with being a cruddy improviser as a trombonist, yes.

No mystery here - less demand for solos, less occasion and necessity to develop the skills.

Are great improvisers really mental chord giants

Some, yes. Some not so much - there are definitely people with nice style of monophonic improv that don't *really get* harmonic voice-leading, as revealed when they try to write arrangements. But there's a baseline of understanding required, certainly.

do they just memorize solos

Nah. You don't need to be *that* good for this not to be necessary. I was once auditioning for a cathedral organist job and one of the other candidates admitted to me afterwards that his 'improvisation' was in fact part of some obscure piece he'd memorised. "Isn't that far more effort than just being able to improvise?", thunk I.

do they just piece together a bunch of cool licks in every key imaginable?

Sometimes, and often that's just fine. Some of the greats are closer to this than others - certainly there are some Charlie Parker solos to which the Parker2000 algorithm could probably come fairly close. But he was 90% heroin at that point, and the solos sound great, so why not.

I mean you can't just rip off a bunch of 1/16th note scales in non-enharmonic chords while following 8 or 12 bar phrases off the top of your head, on command, realistically, can you?

... but yeah, you can :good:

WilliamLang · by **WilliamLang** » 2021-01-18 5:08 p.m.

if you think velocity=improvising that might be a problem.

Burgerbob · by **Burgerbob** » 2021-01-18 5:25 p.m.

Trombone has a similar skill ceiling to any other instrument, but a much higher bar for entry and a much steeper learning curve. Trombone is hard.

In other news, water is wet.

stewbones43 · by **stewbones43** » 2021-01-18 5:30 p.m.

Isn't it because trombonists are perfectionists and so they are afraid to play wrong notes, whereas trumpet players are used to it. :biggrin:

Saxophonists use 9 digits to play their instruments and so have 3 times more chances of playing a right note than a trumpet player and 9 times more chance than a trombonist. :idk:

Cheers

Stewbones43

Bach5G · by **Bach5G** » 2021-01-18 5:39 p.m.

The trombone section is where the solo goes to die.

AndrewMeronek · by **AndrewMeronek** » 2021-01-18 5:56 p.m.

To throw a wrench in these here gears:

We all know that trombone is hard. But when it comes to improvising, a lot of trombonists simply don't spend the time figuring out "what works". Velocity isn't really that important to a good improvisation; creativity within whatever limitations one's instrument has is, and that really takes effort.

WilliamLang · by **WilliamLang** » 2021-01-18 6:27 p.m.

for my ears Jacob Garchik's the Heavens is the best jazz trombone album i've ever heard. it's all about sound, feel, and storytelling, and i don't think there's a single double time chorus in the whole thing.

andym · by **andym** » 2021-01-18 6:37 p.m.

Lots of interesting points above.

Maybe someone else remembers this news story because I can’t find it. What I remember is that a study of studio recordings showed that some great jazz artists played the same solo on multiple takes. The implication is that what we hear on some classic recordings aren’t true improvisations. So some of what we hear on recordings is unrealistic.

But mostly, I thought trombonists such at improvising because I’m dragging down the average.

harrisonreed · by **harrisonreed** » 2021-01-18 7:02 p.m.

The saxophone is the kazoo of the woodwind family. I asked a really great sax player about this and that is how he described his instrument. He also said:

"Sure, some of it is licks, some of it is ideas in my head that are spontaneous. All of it is just button combinations, though. You press down the buttons and blow."

I asked about things like partials and hitting the right notes and the guy was like "no, buttons" and clicked his keys down a few times while holding his sax up to show me that indeed, the sax had buttons.

That is why trombonists are not as good, on average, at improvising. It's a very different approach, especially for kazoos like the saxophone. Their approach is similar to learning how to play Street Fighter II -- even a mediocre player looks cool when they can chain hodoukens and souryuukens together.

Doug_Elliott · by **Doug_Elliott** » 2021-01-18 7:36 p.m.

I have thought about this subject a lot over the years.

I think basically it comes down to the fact that the time and effort required to achieve a very high level of facility is much greater on trombone than other instruments. I consider trombone to be a very easy instrument to get "pretty good" at, but exponentially harder to get past that point. During the time we spend just to maintain mediocrity, a sax player is running up and down millions of scales, arpeggios, and patterns, and memorizing transcribed solos. If we practiced that way we'd be able to do that too, but we really can't (or at least don't) practice that way. It's partly simple endurance - your face can only take so much. I doubt that sax players have to "rest as much as you play" and plan that into their practice time.

It's far easier to become a really good classical player. The literature is relatively limited - a few dozen orchestral excerpts that require precision and repetition, but not the same kind of independent thought and facility as improvising.

And don't get me started on the various other baggage that holds us back. I can't find a valve cap that's the right weight... what if it was made of gold brass instead of nickel silver?

JerryY · by **JerryY** » 2021-01-18 7:55 p.m.

I have had many discussions with band directors over the years about this. I play as a serious hobbyist and play with several local big bands and small groups. I have worked hard the past ten years to become a decent soloist and now regularly play improv solos in all the bands. My experience is this:

1) High school trombone sections rarely get the melody line to any degree, so when the director says play around the melody, its like where?

2) I concur that high level facility is not generally achieved at the high school level, I still want to see the melody line...

3) Because the trombone starts with these two disadvantages, the opportunities don't come often enough to inspire the student to delve into it, thus the death spiral begins.

I like to let the younger band directors know that if you give a trombonist a written melody line to play over, let them develop a simple line to start the solo everytime (that they work out) and let them have a place to return to if they get lost, they will develop the ear chops that help facilitate the playing/technique chops. It takes time and the teacher needs to let the player develop. Unfortunately, we live in a instant gratification society.

BurckhardtS · 2021-01-18 9:12 p.m.

Doug pretty much nailed it, and I think that extends to musicianship too. In my experience, the average student classical player is usually behind the average improviser when it comes to things like time feel, harmonic comprehension (ear training), pitch, sight reading etc.

Learning a solo that has already been written is pretty easy to learn by rote and reproduce especially with the abundance of and access to recordings. Improvising requires you to comprehend the melodic and harmonic language, and to make a cohesive thought in that language.

This comes from someone who has a classical degree but spent most of undergraduate learning the most from the jazz program. (and also sucks at improvising)

Doug_Elliott · by **Doug_Elliott** » 2021-01-18 9:15 p.m.

Relevant post I saw on Facebook today:

"My theory: whereas making jazz music is about endless improvement, it is not about PLAYING more than you did yesterday. It's more about HEARING more than you did yesterday. Once you hear everything, you know what to do. Improvising is the business of responding."

When playing trombone it's difficult to HEAR other stuff going on. You have to learn to hear it in your head. Other instruments aren't really like that. Even trumpet isn't like that - you still have the bone conduction, but your own sound is farther away from your ears, so you can hear other things better.

Bach5G · by **Bach5G** » 2021-01-18 9:24 p.m.

Please let this thread not turn into legit vs jazz. That’s so 1940.

hyperbolica · by **hyperbolica** » 2021-01-18 9:47 p.m.

[quote="WilliamLang"]for my ears Jacob Garchik's the Heavens is the best jazz trombone album i've ever heard. it's all about sound, feel, and storytelling, and i don't think there's a single double time chorus in the whole thing.[/quote]

Yeah, see, if I could blow improv like Jacob Garchik, I wouldn't worry about what y'all sound like. :cool:

The thing is that I play regularly with at least 3 other trombonists that don't suck, but technically they're not the greatest players, and they might not even be some of the brightest people in general. I think it's a gene you're born with, and it might be more in your ear than in your head proper. And then I know another guy who is always asking for solos, and I give him credit, he plays every chance he gets, but he's godawful, and my secret fear is that I sound like him. :shock:

Bach5G · by **Bach5G** » 2021-01-18 9:54 p.m.

I occasionally play with guy who can play really high and move his right arm back and forth really quickly. It’s a bit depressing how many people are seem to be impressed by that.

robcat2075 · by **robcat2075** » 2021-01-18 9:58 p.m.

I recall over on the cello forum a college kid came through complaining about an improvisation course he was in.

He posted his assignment and it was a bunch of brief jazz licks that they had to be able to play on I IV V etc. in any key and so forth

I noodled through them on my cell and trombone and thought, wow, this would be a cinch on a cello! All the patterns lie in one "position" and to play them on any root you just need to move your hand to a different place on the fingerboard and keep using the same fingering over and over. I wish it was that simple on a trombone.

You get none of that on a saxophone. You'd have to be a mechanical genius to equal that freedom on a saxophone.

It ought to be easier on a cello and yet the jazz world is not over-run with jazz cello players.

I agree the trombone is not designed for jazz but there may be more to it than that.

Bach5G · by **Bach5G** » 2021-01-18 10:32 p.m.

Maybe Mike Lake will weigh in.

MagnumH · by **MagnumH** » 2021-01-18 10:53 p.m.

I’m not sure I accept the premise of the question. Judging someone as “good” at improvising is a highly subjective thing to do. What is good? Is it fast? High? Technically difficult? Musical? It’s a very difficult thing to say.

But if we do accept the premise, I think others have covered it nicely. Trombone is HARD. It’s a weird instrument that’s awkward to play. It’s physically demanding, which affects how we can practice and how we allocate our time. It’s not normally a melody instrument in an ensemble setting (though I theorize that so many trombonists make great arrangers because are used to the background and how it operates). All of that.

I also wonder if it’s because there is, relatively speaking, a dearth of really famous trombone soloists. Of course there’s still plenty, from Teagarden to Kai and JJ to Fred Wesley and up to Wycliffe or Gilkes. But I don’t think there are many soloists with the impact of, say, Charlie Parker, John Coltrane, the Breckers, Miles, etc. Trombone solos just aren’t in the collective oeuvre in the same way.

One interesting point - go to somewhere like New Orleans, where trombone solos are EVERYWHERE, and you see a lot more great improvisers, at least within the style they play. They grow up with it, they hear out on the corner, it’s the first thing they want to play when they get a horn...I think that kind of culture counts for a LOT.

Doubler · by **Doubler** » 2021-01-19 12:32 a.m.

FWIW - The thing I notice about really great Jazz trombone improvisers is their knowledge and use of partials, making them fit the changes they're playing over, as evidenced by a distinct economy of slide motion.

Bach5G · by **Bach5G** » 2021-01-20 9:58 p.m.

This gentleman has a number of lessons on improvisation for trombone players on YouTube and Facebook. Basic tools that could result in an immediate improvement in one’s soloing, was my impression.

Shawn Bell

www.shawnbellmusic.com

ArbanRubank · by **ArbanRubank** » 2021-01-20 10:42 p.m.

To answer the OP's question with some things I think I think:

1) I believe we have unrealistic expectations of our playing - probably from listening to recordings of highly-talented & accomplished performers. We hear what someone most likely took years to develop and we try it in one take. We fail.

2) We can't hear the notes in our head and transfer them to the horn. Many of us can make up fantastic riffs in our heads, but can't transfer those notes on our horns.

3) We look at all the music theory stuff and it's simply overwhelming. I don't want to need a PhD in music theory to honk out a few jazz lines.

4) We try too hard, thinking we must make the melody line extremely busy (see No. 1). Actually, what separates jazz from classical music is improvisation. So if we change up one note in a melody line, we have "jazzed it up". That's all it takes; one note. Okay, maybe two. But we fail to realize that we can "jazz up" a melody line by modifying it's rhythm. So if we modify it's rhythm pattern a little and add a few "colorful notes" - as my instructor puts it - maybe we could pass. And if we could pass, then we could build on that success and learn to find other "colorful notes" on-the-fly. That's slowly learning to play by ear and is where I am at present. Give me a fake book and I'll give you a passable low-level, simple, but pleasing trombone solo. It might not be the best in the band, but then again, nobody expects anything from a trombone player anyway. So if we fill up our time slot by giving them something smooth, mellow and rhythmic, we win.

Bach5G · by **Bach5G** » 2021-01-21 12:01 a.m.

As long as it doesn’t sound like a cat being swung by the tail, my expectations have been exceeded.

Doug_Elliott · by **Doug_Elliott** » 2021-01-21 12:10 a.m.

[quote="Bach5G"]As long as it doesn’t sound like a cat being swung by the tail, my expectations have been exceeded.[/quote]
Unless, of course, that's the effect you're after.

Vegastokc · by **Vegastokc** » 2021-01-21 9:00 a.m.

[quote="Doug Elliott"]And don't get me started on the various other baggage that holds us back. I can't find a valve cap that's the right weight... what if it was made of gold brass instead of nickel silver?[/quote]

And of course which mouthpiece to use.... :idea:

[quote="Bach5G"]I occasionally play with guy who can play really high and move his right arm back and forth really quickly. It’s a bit depressing how many people are seem to be impressed by that.[/quote]

Oh man, that was my go-to move in high school. :lol:

baileyman · by **baileyman** » 2021-01-21 9:07 a.m.

[quote="Bach5G"]This gentleman has a number of lessons on improvisation for trombone players on YouTube and Facebook. Basic tools that could result in an immediate improvement in one’s soloing, was my impression.

Shawn Bell

www.shawnbellmusic.com[/quote]

Nicely illustrates how hard it is to play in good time.

timothy42b · by **timothy42b** » 2021-01-21 11:24 a.m.

I think there are two aspects to this.

One is that as others have pointed out the trombone is much harder to produce a stream of notes on than a sax. Certainly I can't come close, some of you have much more facility than I do.

But the other is that a sax blowing a stream of notes can sound pretty good, and to my ears a trombone less so. I know a lot of that is personal preference but I like the more melodic soloing of a less demanding trad jazz solo than the faster.

hyperbolica · by **hyperbolica** » 2021-01-21 11:30 a.m.

[quote="Bach5G"]This gentleman has a number of lessons on improvisation for trombone players on YouTube and Facebook. Basic tools that could result in an immediate improvement in one’s soloing, was my impression.

Shawn Bell

www.shawnbellmusic.com[/quote]
Actually, this seems very helpful. It simplifies the topic while giving enough information to give you something to work on without being overwhelming. Thanks.

ExZacLee · by **ExZacLee** » 2021-01-21 7:21 p.m.

You need to study it to do it.

How many trombone players have you really listened to - like enough that you can play their ideas?

How much music that you listen to can you play on your horn?

Improvisation is more about knowing how to construct melodies and variations in real time. Having a lot of technique helps, but it isn't necessary. Knowing all your scales and chords helps, but isn't necessary.

What is necessary is a willingness to spend a long time working on the simple act of being creative with the tools you have at your disposal.

Every melody you've ever heard is a tool for you to use. Don't know it on your horn? Learn it. Is it too technical or unplayable? Modify it. Play it slower. Learn it in all 12 keys. That's how you build vocabulary. I started off picking out snatches of Trummy Young, Louis Armstrong, Ray Anderson, Slide Hampton, Joe Jackson (he was with Maynard then and one of my early heroes), David Gibson, anyone I heard and liked. I learned some Wynton, which got me into Wycliffe. An educator I admired suggested I listen to JJ so I started learning JJ - I can't stress enough how important JJ is to anyone wanting to play with a modern sound. I got into Curtis and learned darn near everything he played on Coltrane's Blue Trane, and the Art Blakey albums "Caravan" and "Mosaic." When I started working a lot, at about 19, I already had a decent vocabulary, which helped through some difficult situations where I clearly didn't know what was going on. I got heavily into Clark Terry, and into Sonny Rollins and Bird to a lesser extent, around this time as I tried to learn more bebop vocabulary. And then back to JJ... and Curtis... and Julian Priester... and Carl Fontana...

And then Coleman Hawkins and Ben Webster and back to Louis as I tried to learn the American Songbook better...

And then into Fred Wesley and Jimmy Pankow and Willie Colón and Jimmy Bosch and I found my checks coming more and more from Funk, Soul, Salsa and Timba.

And then and then and then... I'm just a child trying to get better at speaking this language, this language of music.

When someone speaks, they usually aren't reciting entire passages they've read or memorized, but they are using words and phrases they've repeated over the years as part of their syntax. Improvising a solo over a song works much the same way.

Playing the ideas in your head is simply a matter of putting the work in. Hear an idea in your head and you can't play it? Learn to play it in whatever key you hear it in. Work it through all 12. Can't do it? Work on it. In a week, if you're doing that every day, it'll be no time before you're doing that with any melody you know.

When I play a solo on a song, even if it's a novel chord progression I've never encountered, what I play is in that moment a culmination of everything I've been working on for the last 30 years. Yeah, there might be a JJ lick in there. Might be an entire 8 bar phrase of Louis Armstrong. Might be a few intervalic studies used in creative ways. Might just be one note, played like the bell pattern on timbales ala the trumpet intro to Fuego Cubano or the Chorus to Coltrane's Liberia. It's all put together in the moment according to what I'm hearing. It's 30 years of ear training practically applied. It's an on the spot transcription of what i thought would sound cool in the moment.

That's how it operates. Yeah, some people are just running a bunch of nonsense, but the good players are speaking a language. Some are more plain spoken, some more eloquent, some more overly loquacious.

There are certain technical limitations to the trombone, but there are plenty of examples of how to get around that. Here's a hint: we all edit ourselves to some extent.

Don't be concerned with the limitations, be concerned with the process. The rest will take care of itself.

Bach5G · by **Bach5G** » 2021-01-21 9:57 p.m.

But, assuming you don’t have 30 years ...

BGuttman · by **BGuttman** » 2021-01-21 10:06 p.m.

[quote="Bach5G"]But, assuming you don’t have 30 years ...[/quote]

You go with what you have. Zac was improvising at 19 -- way less than 30 years of practice (more like 10).

Zac, that was a great post.

ExZacLee · by **ExZacLee** » 2021-01-22 10:48 a.m.

Thankya Bruce.

I started on trombone at 12, was almost kicked out of band at 13 because I hadn't improved in a year, and started practicing after a visit to the repair store lead to the discovery of a massive obstruction in my leadpipe (a pencil) and the horn got easier. I got my first gig when I was 15. I wasn't any good, but i listened to a lot of music and tried to imitate those guys. Other kids played football, went to the mall to chat up girls, sniffed glue at the lake... I hung out in my garage and played along with my cassette tapes and NPR.

I was making my *living* playing music at 19. I wasn't any more talented than my peers, I just worked really hard at what I wanted to do. I had been practicing pretty intensely for 4 years. Hard work where i grew up was digging ditches, laying pipe, farm work for $3.00/hr... whatever it took to be a musician wasn't hard work.

I have a buddy who works in coding - he's done the lion's share of work on a few different apps, has done a lot of work in designing secure systems for online payment systems, did some "white hat" work for some fortune 500 companies. That's his "side gig", although it's primarily contractor stuff like his "day gig" - which until the pandemic was his work as a tenor saxophonist, recently (pre-pandemic) touring with some pretty famous people. We talk a lot about what the future is for our line of work (I'm sure a lot of people on here wonder the same thing.) I jokingly suggested I should "get into coding" - he asked how much I had done and told him my history with coding lies entirely in learning "Turtle" on a crappy desktop back in 1992. He laughed... and then offered to teach me for $50/hr.

ExZacLee · by **ExZacLee** » 2021-01-22 10:50 a.m.

[quote="Doug Elliott"]Relevant post I saw on Facebook today:

"My theory: whereas making jazz music is about endless improvement, it is not about PLAYING more than you did yesterday. It's more about HEARING more than you did yesterday. Once you hear everything, you know what to do. Improvising is the business of responding."

When playing trombone it's difficult to HEAR other stuff going on. You have to learn to hear it in your head. Other instruments aren't really like that. Even trumpet isn't like that - you still have the bone conduction, but your own sound is farther away from your ears, so you can hear other things better.[/quote]

This is so much gold and so many people seem to be buzzing right past it.

johntarr · by **johntarr** » 2021-01-23 1:37 a.m.

I agree with the above posts on listening an certainly the awkwardness of the trombone.

One idea that I’ve been pondering is the use of fingers. Our fingers take up much more space in our motor and sensory cortexes than our arms. My thinking is that when we use our fingers to create, perhaps we have a greater connection with more of our grey matter. I haven’t seen any research on this but it seems as if it could be a factor.

imsevimse · 2021-01-23 8:20 a.m.

1. I agree with Doug that it has a lot to do with practice. Saxophone players mainly improvise all the time they pick up their sax, even in warmup they take off in improvisations. We play long tones and scales or flexibility studies. If we improvise we do that after all scales, flex, etudes or concert stuff. This is one reason; we need to practise improvisation more.

2. It has to do with the instrument. I think chromatic scales are essential to "get away with" mistakes. On a trumpet it is super fast to push the right button and "save" a wrong note (and they do that all the time). On trombone it depends alot where the note is. If you never use the first position you keep the possibility to save a wrong note by either raise a half step or lower a half step. The right note is never more than a half step away. I think this is important as you learn as it helps the flow to be able to change and continue without stopping the phrase unnatural.

3. The trombone is much harder compared to a sax, trumpet, guitar or piano. Just think of how fluent they play. When we play eight notes they play sixteenth notes. If we can play four bars before we take a breath they can play eight bars. The guitarist and pianist does not even have to breath. A slide with long pulls in the low register compared to buttons. We need the high register to play more fluent and that takes years to get into that register. Lots of things that make the trombone more difficult to play.

4. When we get a solo in a big band we often get more difficult solos. A blues solo is almost everytime in the tenor saxophone part or in the trumpet part. The solos in the trombone part are often more complex chord progressions when we get to play. After you get reputation as beeing a fair good soloist the director wants to give you solos even thought they are not in the part. Then you have to play without chords because chords is only written in the saxpart. This happens often as you get better. It is still not the same conditions as the saxophone or trumpet players. They can prepare more because they know what they are going to play. Many times during years the director has pointed at me or others in the section because he thinks it is time for a trombone solo. This has happened both at rehearsals and gigs. This gives you motivation to go home and study though, because you want to play a solo, but you do not want to suck at improvisation.

/Tom

BGuttman · by **BGuttman** » 2021-01-23 9:50 a.m.

That chord thing is a real problem. It's one reason we trombonists need to practice the tunes in the Fake Book so we know them backwards and forwards. Including chord progressions. Even if the band members give you a part to work from it's often in a transposed key (trumpet or tenor in Bb, Alto in Eb) so the chords are sorta useless. I usually try to work from a piano or guitar part -- at least the chords match.

Sometimes learning how to synthesize a Bass part from chords can help fitting a solo to a chord pattern.

timothy42b · by **timothy42b** » 2021-01-23 10:18 a.m.

Chords.

I asked my brother (clarinet player in trad jazz settings) how to play along with a simple tune. He said you can fake it, play sol la ti do into the next chord. Then he thought. "Uh, you always know what chord you're on, right?"

Well, at the time, no, that had never occurred to me. Epiphany.

ldmitruk · by **ldmitruk** » 2021-01-28 11:05 a.m.

I think part of the problem is that 90% of the solos are for saxes and trumpets. I've also experienced in the band I play in even if the solo is in the trombone part some directors give it away to the saxes or trumpets anyway.

That being said, as a time crunched musician, it's hard to get in the all the practising for my parts and to work on building a jazz vocabulary,

quiethorn · by **quiethorn** » 2021-01-28 4:21 p.m.

I stopped reading halfway 'cause everyone has already said all the good and right stuff.

Trombone is one of the lesser instruments in jazz.

Trio? Piano, bass, drums

Quartet? Piano, bass, drums, sax

Quintet? Piano, bass drums, sax, trumpet

Sextet? Piano, bass, drums, alto sax, trumpet, tenor sax :idk:

Septet? Piano, bass, drums, alto sax, trumpet, tenor sax, percussion/guitar/vibes/some "non-traditional" jazz instrument :???:

Of course there are exceptions, but that's usually how it goes. Fewer calls for improvisational jazz means fewer people practicing it.

I also wonder how much of it has to do with the trombone generally having too dark a sound for most jazz in general. Even though trombones are technically louder, trumpet and sax have ranges or formants that fall in more sensitive parts of our hearing (Fletcher-Munson Curves), making them project better and seem louder. This is why smaller trombones are preferred in jazz, and even then you really have to blow to be heard against a small group at times or play in the upper range... unless you're mic'ed and know how to work the mic. But even then, mic placement in live settings is usually done wrong for trombone in most middle/high school/college stage bands.

So you have this instrument, which is harder to play well to begin with, and either you play too quiet and everyone will forget your solo, or you play really loud but don't have the technique to back it up yet, and people cringe. The sax and trumpet player can play mediocre solos that will at least be heard well above the band, more people afterwards will tell them "sounded great up there, junior!", so they'll practice improvising more.

It's no wonder jazz harp players get more calls for a jazz septet :biggrin:

mwpfoot · by **mwpfoot** » 2021-01-28 5:31 p.m.

For a long time the weekly big band I am (was?) in moved linearly through a large book of Kenton-era arrangements and transcriptions, with some more recent charts but not really. This was a local pro band's huge book from a band leader who passed away in my time in the band.

There are many charts where the bone solo is scratched out - skip! Someone couldn't hack it, or more likely routinely passed on it, so it's scratched forever. Sometimes the solos are pencil-reassigned to yet another tenor, trumpet, or (the one that makes us feel the lowest) the guitar. Sad. There are charts where full solo choruses pass through the sections but they skip right over our heads - we have to ask if we want one, which sometimes we do, but without a leader these days it is hard to deviate from the ink. A couple charts have 10 or even 8 bar trombone blues solos: big shout takes up the first 2 or 4, then you can try to finish that thought with what's left. This is after 2 choruses each of several others. There were nights where that 2/3rds of one jazz chorus was all we got, and there's usually 3 or 4 of us sitting there who'll take a solo, any solo! 2.5 bars each? The current crew handles it with gallows humor.

Our big moments in this book come with the full-on trombone soloist ballad, of which there are many, and the bone section features, usually faster stuff with a pun name. These are charts that recognize the audience hasn't heard much from the trombone section, but an actually good section showed up, so here they are! When the band leader was still with us he'd damn near announce it like that.

It's interesting to consider: we were valued as melodic/tempo/feeling counterpoints in a song or set, and generally trusted as a section - just not quite as individuals. All of the true trombone features are charts that the band can skip if the right crew isn't there - smart, practical stuff. Back in the day there were many sax and trumpet soloists to feed, and I can imagine giving equal time for bone solos that varied in quality and enthusiasm was less important than sounding hot and keeping multiple giant egos engaged and attending. A bone section that swang well together was enough. A lead player who could soar through a ballad was a bonus! Just not exactly required to get through the night.

I used to be reluctant to play changes but at some point I realized that we have to assert ourselves to get better at this and add more opportunities because we're starting with a negative balance here. So I just tried to be tuneful and bluesy even if a stream of notes led right into me. I tried to get the focus back on the tune for my turn, because I could do it. And people liked it, even at first, when I didn't - I think the general public appreciates a break from "the usual" loud/fast thing. Standing up and doing what I could do (instead of sitting back hoping that someday I'd figure it ALL out) was a huge step forward in my playing and enjoyment.

Assert yourselves! Never scratch out a solo! If nothing else, stand there and eat it! For the team!

:idea:

imsevimse · by **imsevimse** » 2021-01-28 6:59 p.m.

[quote="quiethorn"]I stopped reading halfway 'cause everyone has already said all the good and right stuff.

Trombone is one of the lesser instruments in jazz.

Trio? Piano, bass, drums

Quartet? Piano, bass, drums, sax

Quintet? Piano, bass drums, sax, trumpet

Sextet? Piano, bass, drums, alto sax, trumpet, tenor sax :idk:

Septet? Piano, bass, drums, alto sax, trumpet, tenor sax, percussion/guitar/vibes/some "non-traditional" jazz instrument :???:

Of course there are exceptions, but that's usually how it goes. Fewer calls for improvisational jazz means fewer people practicing it.

I also wonder how much of it has to do with the trombone generally having too dark a sound for most jazz in general. Even though trombones are technically louder, trumpet and sax have ranges or formants that fall in more sensitive parts of our hearing (Fletcher-Munson Curves), making them project better and seem louder. This is why smaller trombones are preferred in jazz, and even then you really have to blow to be heard against a small group at times or play in the upper range... unless you're mic'ed and know how to work the mic. But even then, mic placement in live settings is usually done wrong for trombone in most middle/high school/college stage bands.

So you have this instrument, which is harder to play well to begin with, and either you play too quiet and everyone will forget your solo, or you play really loud but don't have the technique to back it up yet, and people cringe. The sax and trumpet player can play mediocre solos that will at least be heard well above the band, more people afterwards will tell them "sounded great up there, junior!", so they'll practice improvising more.

It's no wonder jazz harp players get more calls for a jazz septet :biggrin:[/quote]

Well put. :good:

I can relate to a lot of that.

Another thing is It's not unusual to play a trombone solo without a mic drowned by saxophones who have have one mic each. Nobody thought of a mic for the trombone solo. I have played a few gigs through years as a sub on second part where the solo turns up without a mic, drowned by saxes on mic's. Why do saxes insist on using individual mics when the rest of the band have no mics, except the second trumpet who is given a mic?

/Tom

Pre59 · by **Pre59** » 2021-01-29 10:17 a.m.

[quote="imsevimse"]<QUOTE author="quiethorn" post_id="138872" time="1611868870" user_id="177">
I stopped reading halfway 'cause everyone has already said all the good and right stuff.

Trombone is one of the lesser instruments in jazz.

Trio? Piano, bass, drums

Quartet? Piano, bass, drums, sax

Quintet? Piano, bass drums, sax, trumpet

Sextet? Piano, bass, drums, alto sax, trumpet, tenor sax :idk:

Septet? Piano, bass, drums, alto sax, trumpet, tenor sax, percussion/guitar/vibes/some "non-traditional" jazz instrument :???:

Of course there are exceptions, but that's usually how it goes. Fewer calls for improvisational jazz means fewer people practicing it.

I also wonder how much of it has to do with the trombone generally having too dark a sound for most jazz in general. Even though trombones are technically louder, trumpet and sax have ranges or formants that fall in more sensitive parts of our hearing (Fletcher-Munson Curves), making them project better and seem louder. This is why smaller trombones are preferred in jazz, and even then you really have to blow to be heard against a small group at times or play in the upper range... unless you're mic'ed and know how to work the mic. But even then, mic placement in live settings is usually done wrong for trombone in most middle/high school/college stage bands.

So you have this instrument, which is harder to play well to begin with, and either you play too quiet and everyone will forget your solo, or you play really loud but don't have the technique to back it up yet, and people cringe. The sax and trumpet player can play mediocre solos that will at least be heard well above the band, more people afterwards will tell them "sounded great up there, junior!", so they'll practice improvising more.

It's no wonder jazz harp players get more calls for a jazz septet :biggrin:[/quote]

Well put. :good:

I can relate to a lot of that.

Another thing is It's not unusual to play a trombone solo without a mic drowned by saxophones who have have one mic each. Nobody thought of a mic for the trombone solo. I have played a few gigs through years as a sub on second part where the solo turns up without a mic, drowned by saxes on mic's. Why do saxes insist on using individual mics when the rest of the band have no mics, except the second trumpet who is given a mic?

/Tom
</QUOTE>

Some of the best gigs I've done is with a Tbn and tenor sax sax fronted quintet. This combination can make a big sound, and the presence of a trumpet sometimes reduces the perceived size, IMO. Get the right combination and you can have a strong sax player for the popular easy to hear sound, and a trombonist who thinks and supports like an arranger.

A mic, stand and leads is cheaper now than ever. I always take my preferred mic out on a gig, even when there's one provided. The sound guy takes you more seriously as well.

I use a Rode M2 which is a stage condenser mic with a flat response across the trombone register, and that can take the volume, and a Shure SM52 in case there's no phantom power for the Rode on the mixer.

Doug_Elliott · by **Doug_Elliott** » 2021-01-29 12:19 p.m.

The only justification for micing the saxes is that their sound can feel loud up close but it doesn't project forward the way brass does.

I have a tendency to assume that even if there's a mic in the trombone section, it's not on. That's true more often than not.

Pre59 · by **Pre59** » 2021-01-29 3:01 p.m.

There's not much exposed tbn section parts that draw the attention of the sound guys. When it comes to the horns it's brass or saxes, and that's something that only arrangers can fix?

JerryY · by **JerryY** » 2021-01-29 4:18 p.m.

Several years ago I started to solo out desire and the need of the groups I played in. I was asked to play with a quintet at a very nice restaurant and do a little soloing, get my feet wet. The tenor sax player (who was in his eighties), had me solo all night. He said: " you'll figure it out, you've got an ear. just blow the horn kid, you'll be fine". By the end of the night i did some things well, others not so well, but I stopped being afraid to make the effort. That goes a long ways.

CharlieB · by **CharlieB** » 2021-01-29 7:56 p.m.

^^^^ All good points.

Trombone is a difficult instrument that presents big improvising challenges.

Even if a virtuoso trombonist overcomes all of these challenges, a trombone will never project the brilliance and excitement of a trumpet or a sax. It's something about the human response to the different timbres. I've seen it over and over. A trombonist can blow his brains out with an incredible improvisation and the audience is ho-hum.

But let a trumpet or sax player stand up and blow a few riffs and the audience comes alive.

It's something about the way humans respond to different sound frequencies. The low brass is the serene, mellow part of the group that is seldom chosen to showcase it.

Posaunus · by **Posaunus** » 2021-01-29 8:21 p.m.

[quote="CharlieB"]It's something about the way humans respond to different sound frequencies.

The low brass is the serene, mellow part of the group that is seldom chosen to showcase it.[/quote]

Perhaps the same reason the sopranos and tenors get most of the best opera arias? :idk:

johntarr · by **johntarr** » 2021-01-30 2:10 a.m.

[quote="CharlieB"]^^^^ All good points.

Trombone is a difficult instrument that presents big improvising challenges.

Even if a virtuoso trombonist overcomes all of these challenges, a trombone will never project the brilliance and excitement of a trumpet or a sax. It's something about the human response to the different timbres. I've seen it over and over. A trombonist can blow his brains out with an incredible improvisation and the audience is ho-hum.

But let a trumpet or sax player stand up and blow a few riffs and the audience comes alive.

It's something about the way humans respond to different sound frequencies. The low brass is the serene, mellow part of the group that is seldom chosen to showcase it.[/quote]

My impression is that the trombone was more successful in earlier forms of jazz because of its expressive capabilities. To be able to growl, scream, shout, laugh and cry, a trombone player could reach the listener on an emotional level. As jazz became more complex, it was defined by the instruments on which it is easier to play faster and more intricate patterns. Some modern trombonists have heroically developed technique to almost the level of a saxophone, but it doesn’t really matter to the listener. Trombonists need to develop in a different way, using the instrument’s strengths.

FOSSIL · by **FOSSIL** » 2021-01-30 4:40 a.m.

[quote="johntarr"]<QUOTE author="CharlieB" post_id="139054" time="1611968163" user_id="250">
^^^^ All good points.

Trombone is a difficult instrument that presents big improvising challenges.

Even if a virtuoso trombonist overcomes all of these challenges, a trombone will never project the brilliance and excitement of a trumpet or a sax. It's something about the human response to the different timbres. I've seen it over and over. A trombonist can blow his brains out with an incredible improvisation and the audience is ho-hum.

But let a trumpet or sax player stand up and blow a few riffs and the audience comes alive.

It's something about the way humans respond to different sound frequencies. The low brass is the serene, mellow part of the group that is seldom chosen to showcase it.[/quote]

My impression is that the trombone was more successful in earlier forms of jazz because of its expressive capabilities. To be able to growl, scream, shout, laugh and cry, a trombone player could reach the listener on an emotional level. As jazz became more complex, it was defined by the instruments on which it is easier to play faster and more intricate patterns. Some modern trombonists have heroically developed technique to almost the level of a saxophone, but it doesn’t really matter to the listener. Trombonists need to develop in a different way, using the instrument’s strengths.
</QUOTE>

Yes, you are right on the money... as a consumer of jazz improvisation rather than an exponent, I hear so much trombone improvisation that seems designed to impress rather than being about music. Why are many obsessed with competing with sax and trumpet players ? The trombone is a wonderful instrument if it is allowed to have it's own voice.

Chris

timothy42b · by **timothy42b** » 2021-01-30 8:51 a.m.

[quote="johntarr"]Some modern trombonists have heroically developed technique to almost the level of a saxophone, but it doesn’t really matter to the listener. Trombonists need to develop in a different way, using the instrument’s strengths.[/quote]

That's what I think too, but that's probably heavily influenced by not listening to much of the people with that blazing technique. I like the simpler older trad stuff, and that may not be commercially salable now.

The nice thing about playing slower more melodic solos is that the technique required is within reach of any of us.

The bad thing is technique is no longer an excuse for not doing it. :idea:

brtnats · by **brtnats** » 2021-01-30 2:29 p.m.

Just adding weight:

1: Trombone is a really hard instrument, 2: Improvisation requires technical fluidity that trombonists have to independently acquire, and 3: Improvisation requires opportunities to practice and fail and learn from those failures and models to emulate. See points 1 and 2.

There was a FB thread about JJ a while back, and I asked Sam Burtis a question about JJ’s album prep, because he heard him live. Sam says JJ practiced LOTS of variations on solos so that when he got into the booth, he wouldn’t be wasting time trying out new ideas. But, because JJ is the ideal for so many jazz-solo performers, and because we don’t have as many really famous examples of soloists as sax/trumpet/etc, then we listen to JJ and assume THAT’S what “improvisation” sounds like. The truth is, that’s what improvisation, with a LOT OF PRACTICE, sounds like.

Trombonists have to make a “professional development” plan to learn to improvise, and then they have to find an opportunity to practice it. That’s a high bar.

harrisonreed · by **harrisonreed** » 2021-01-30 6:14 p.m.

Is the trombone actually hard? I feel like, especially compared to other brass, there is a crazy margin of error built in for hitting notes, and the access to alternate notes and partials "against the grain" makes it more intuitive. On a trumpet or sackbut if you look at the horn the wrong way it plays the wrong note, just out of spite. But I can see that the trombone is difficult to play for kids.

I think it has more to do with the opportunity given for solos, especially to kids. A 12 year old sax player can already be ripping alto sax solos while a 12 year old trombone player is struggling with reaching 7th and doesn't know how to take care of their slide. Some of it is physical difficulty, and some of it is kids just making the instrument harder to play. And then they don't get solos.

None of those difficulties should affect someone in high school ... But the lack of solo experience and stigma that their instrument is "hard" might be a pretty big wall.

My buddy used to say we should just have kids start in the back of the Arbans book and tell them that is the easiest tune they're going to see. :idk:

imsevimse · 2021-01-31 6:05 a.m.

I've been studying french horn, trumpet, flugelhorn as a beginner since summer. I've had about half year on the french horn and three months on the trumpet, a couple of weeks on the flugel. If I compare to the trombone those instruments are real easy just to start.

I can play melodies almost out of the box on all those. If you give a trombone go a trumpet player I doubt he will be able to get a descent sound and I doubt he will be able to figure out the slide in just a couple of days. To a trombone player a switch to a valved instrument seems easy. It is easy to a certain level. I mean I can play easy melodies as good on the trumpet, flugelhorn and french horn as I can do them on the trombone, just after some months and I have played the trombone since 1975, even graduated on the trombone at the academy. Of course I touched an euphonium those years but have never really practiced. As you may agree most tromboneplayers find the euphonium easy. The trumpet, flugelhorn and french horn is as easy in many ways. The extreme high register on the trumpet is not for every one, and the low register of the french horn also requires special care, but mainstream skills is easy earned compared to mainstream skills on a trombone. The skill to play a beautiful easy melody for example is much more difficult on the trombone, a lot more high level technical skills must be in order just to synchronise a nice slide move.

I've started to improvise on the flugel and it is very intuitive too. It is easier than on the trombone to navigate.

/Tom

Pre59 · by **Pre59** » 2021-01-31 7:17 a.m.

[quote="harrisonreed"]

Is the trombone actually hard? I feel like, especially compared to other brass, there is a crazy margin of error built in for hitting notes, and the access to alternate notes and partials "against the grain" makes it more intuitive. On a trumpet or sackbut if you look at the horn the wrong way it plays the wrong note, just out of spite. But I can see that the trombone is difficult to play for kids.
[/quote]

The idea of alternate positions, rather than the best position for the situation stops many trombonists from finding "short shift" interesting patterns and phrases beyond the bell. So a Bb in 5th doesn't sound exactly the same as it does in 1st, any more than duplicated notes played across different strings on any string instrument do. It's the context that's important, using the best position for tone or efficiency when playing a phase or pattern.

A much respected bass guitarist once told me that the trick of sight reading is to know where every note is on the instrument, arguably true for improvising on the tbn IMO.

Wilktone · by **Wilktone** » 2021-01-31 9:17 a.m.

I don't really have too much new to add to what's already been said about the nature of the trombone and improvisation, but like MagnumH wrote earlier, the premise of the question is flawed in some ways.

[quote="hyperbolica"]Before you take offense, I obviously don't mean ALL trombonists, but if you take 10 trombonists, 10 trumpet players, and 10 sax players, you'll have more guys that can wail on the sax or the trumpet than on the trombone.[/quote]

Where are we drawing from for these 30 hypothetically musicians? The high school or college up the road? The local scene? From the recordings of the Vanguard Jazz Orchestra? I think we're going to get different results depending on the pool of musicians. In any general pool of musicians it's probably easier to find more saxophonists than trombonists. If you're going to pull 5 saxophonists from a pool of 30 and 4 trombones from a pool of 15 for your band it's going to be easier to get your whole sax section full of strong improvisers.

Now we should also define what it means to "wail." That term (to me) means something different than just improvising an expressive and musical solo, it suggests faster, higher, louder. For obvious reasons, trombonists are going to rely less on those musical elements in their improvisations. We might as well add upright bassists in there and also think about how many bass soloists "wail." Musicians who stick with the trombone or bass tend to be less interested in that sort of playing by nature.

Why does music composed for trumpet quartet suck but trombone quartet music sound good?

And one more thing. Is it really cool to end every other phrase with a descending tritone, or do you have to be Charlie Parker to pull that off?

I'm aware of this happening, but hand't realized it was such a trope. I just pulled out my copy of the Omnibook and it doesn't look like Bird ended too many phrases that way. Is this a regional thing?

And one more more thing. Are great improvisers really mental chord giants, or do they just memorize solos, or do they just piece together a bunch of cool licks in every key imaginable? I mean you can't just rip off a bunch of 1/16th note scales in non-enharmonic chords while following 8 or 12 bar phrases off the top of your head, on command, realistically, can you?

It depends on the improviser, but I think most competent and better improvisers do all of the above to a degree.

Dave

johntarr · by **johntarr** » 2021-01-31 10:32 a.m.

[quote="harrisonreed"]Is the trombone actually hard? I feel like, especially compared to other brass, there is a crazy margin of error built in for hitting notes, and the access to alternate notes and partials "against the grain" makes it more intuitive. On a trumpet or sackbut if you look at the horn the wrong way it plays the wrong note, just out of spite. But I can see that the trombone is difficult to play for kids.

I think it has more to do with the opportunity given for solos, especially to kids. A 12 year old sax player can already be ripping alto sax solos while a 12 year old trombone player is struggling with reaching 7th and doesn't know how to take care of their slide. Some of it is physical difficulty, and some of it is kids just making the instrument harder to play. And then they don't get solos.

None of those difficulties should affect someone in high school ... But the lack of solo experience and stigma that their instrument is "hard" might be a pretty big wall.

My buddy used to say we should just have kids start in the back of the Arbans book and tell them that is the easiest tune they're going to see. :idk:[/quote]
For beginners, it’s much easier to press a valve than to find a position. With the valves, it’s binary, either you have the right combination or you don’t. With the slide, just being a 1/4 (and less) of an inch off will be wrong. On top of that, just learning to hold the instrument is a struggle with the balance shifting and managing the weight of the slide, not to mention the arm. With the trumpet, the left (holding) hand doesn’t need to constantly adjust as it does with a trombone.

Fingers take up much more space in the motor cortex than the arm so the amount of control over three fingers, each moving an inch or so between two clearly defined points, will be much easier to learn than moving an arm over (I’m guessing) about thirty inches away from the body’s center with no clear stopping points. Heck, just showing kids how to put the instrument together is much more involved than the trumpet.

By the time the trombone student has mastered rudimentary positions and a few tunes, the trumpet student will be playing much more complex music. Trumpets and saxophones are learning melodies while trombones are playing 1 to 5 to 1 or longer harmony notes.

WilliamLang · by **WilliamLang** » 2021-01-31 12:24 p.m.

is the trombone actually hard? yes

Bach5G · by **Bach5G** » 2021-01-31 2:25 p.m.

I really wonder how hard most trombonists practice improvising.

ExZacLee · by **ExZacLee** » 2021-01-31 11:15 p.m.

I apologize in advance for this long missive... was about to delete it but i figured what the hell.

TLDR - yeah, trombone is hard, but so is everything else, so just do it. Everyone who does this dealt with the same "oh crap, there's no buttons on this thing!" situation. Go with your strengths. What is that? Sound.

[quote="CharlieB"]^^^^ All good points.

Trombone is a difficult instrument that presents big improvising challenges.[/quote]
Very true. All instruments have challenges, but the trombone and upright bass are easily the most challenging of the "common" jazz instruments.

[quote="CharlieB"]Even if a virtuoso trombonist overcomes all of these challenges, a trombone will never project the brilliance and excitement of a trumpet or a sax. It's something about the human response to the different timbres. I've seen it over and over. A trombonist can blow his brains out with an incredible improvisation and the audience is ho-hum.[/quote]
This, I think, is not so true. I've been on plenty of gigs where the reaction you describe came after something I played... and the amazing artistry on display by my trumpet and sax bandmates was greeted with more of a ho-hum attitude. It really depends on the song and the style it's in, and the closer that style gets to New Orleans and its surrounding environs, the more at home something big and beautiful like a trombone is. On a Coltrane composition, I'm rarely going to be in a position to put something out there that can compete with an equally competent saxophonist. I love Trane, I play a bunch of his stuff in my own groups, but I don't play it as well as a tenor player who loves Trane will. Now on a traditional jazz gig? Different story. That's my home. That's the trombone's home. NOLA brass band stuff? No contest. In most of those groups the trambones are stomping. Certain big band tunes can not have any substitute for the trombone solo. IGYUMS? I've heard bands give that tbn solo to a sax player, heard it given to a trumpet player. Never works like the real thing. There are certain styles the trombone is more at home with. If one is trying to find their voice on this instrument and feels lost, they should start there. The syntax between the styles isn't as different as people try to make it out to be. If you learn how to speak well in a style you love, it makes it that much easier to translate your ideas to something more foreign or difficult.

I love bebop and play it every chance i get, but I know what I'm putting out there isn't always going to be as "electrifying" as what the saxophonist may do. That's alright... I get into my JJ vein and milk it for all it's worth, and if I do something particularly memorable, I learn from that. Mostly I learn how hard it is to play Segment at 300...

In Salsa, Timba, and other related styles, the trombone is king. Most of the groups I play in that do these Afro-Caribbean styles, the trombone is the first horn called (and usually the only one if the budget is small.) My stamina used to be pretty amazing because of gigs in these bands. It was constant playing and I usually had more solos than anyone else in the band... it's more akin to the lead tenor book in a big band, just with longer and louder solos. In Cuba, Puerto Rico, Venezuela, etc., you'll find the trombone has a higher sense of place, if you will, in the music. I've never had to buy a drink on those gigs.

Before the Covid hit, a good amount of my work was with jazz groups that also bring a lot of soul and gospel into the music. The vocal quality of the trombone combined with the sheer power of the instrument works great in these "neo-soul jazz" groups.

[/quote]

[quote="CharlieB"]But let a trumpet or sax player stand up and blow a few riffs and the audience comes alive.

It's something about the way humans respond to different sound frequencies. The low brass is the serene, mellow part of the group that is seldom chosen to showcase it.[/quote]

Well, if all you do is explore the mellow and serene side of the instrument, of course you're not going to excite people in every solo. The role of the trombone in most forms of popular music calls for big and brash just as often, if not more so. Sax and trumpet can be mellow and serene as well... if they do that on a solo when the band is decidedly not serene and mellow, they're not getting any more love than the trombone or anyone else in the band.

JJ didn't play "saxophone lines" in most of his solos - his sound and his sense of swing and rhythm are what gets your attention. Heck, most of his solos are very approachable on the horn. I get all of my trombone students playing JJ solos - there's plenty of variation in difficulty across his body of work. The range is usually more of an issue than the speed of the actual lines, and JJ's range generally doesn't go beyond a high D - most of his stuff doesn't go above high C or Bb. As mentioned earlier, many of JJ's solos are "worked up" - he was a brilliant improvisor but generally knew what he was going to play before he went into the studio (some live stuff I've heard JJ on doesn't even sound like him it's so on another level of genius.) This is more common than a lot of people think. Compare alternate tracks on re-issues. It wasn't just JJ. TLDR: It's okay to work stuff up. This is a language, none of us are making up the words we're typing right now. Also, Swing is defined by the rhythm more-so than the harmonic language. One note in the right place is better than four in the wrong place.

Curtis Fuller plays a lot of stuff that is very approachable. His stuff just lays well, and rarely goes beyond 5th. Dynamically, he's very underrated for the amount of variation in his sound (probably due to the heavy compression on a lot of reissues i've heard). From whisper to shout - he really gets a lot of mileage out his solos, often from a small number of motifs. His "Wee Small Hours" from the Blakey album "Caravan" is the greatest late-night-feelin-sorry-for-yourself song I've ever heard. TLDR: Dynamics and sound are more important than blazing technique.

Rosolino - I can't do Roz, don't even ask me how. I've had one student who could. The approach is more similar to the old school approach (more arpeggiated vs. JJ's linear conception) but using modern harmonic language. His abilities were and still are beyond me (and most trombone players). Occasionally I'll hear him play something I like and know I can play so I'll work it up but generally I just listen to him solely for enjoyment. I have no problem admitting when I'm licked. Generally, if my beginners are into Roz, we work on some other stuff for a while so we can (me included) develop the necessary technique. I never could do lip slurs very well, and doing Roz well requires having those down, really articulate, with excellent time at all tempos. I don't know how many times I've stopped the CD while listening to Roz with a student to exclaim "I have no idea how he is doing that and swinging it so hard, that is so hard to do!" And then I'll hear someone do it and I'm just like "*?*" TLDR: Some people have technical powers you may never develop, but working towards them makes you better. I still can't play his stuff, but my lip slurs have improved tremendously from trying.

Fontana - I used to be able to do him okay-ish, I had a natural doodle tongue I didn't have to work on as much as most people, but this style does not keep well. If you lay off, you lose it. A lot of attention is paid to the fretting and what not by most students, but it's the accurate slide technique at speed (practice them modes and sequences!) that really prepares you for this guy. Not many of his solos I've heard that are "approachable" for beginners, but there is a lot of his stuff that lays easy on the horn if you can handle the speed and the doodle tongue. Other players with similar-ish approaches to the horn (Bob McChesney, Conrad Herwig, Marshall Gilkes for example) have similar technical challenges in their work. Often these are the guys I hear being referred to when someone talks about the difficulty of playing jazz on trombone. Yeah, this approach is incredibly difficult, but it's not impossible. It can all be broken down into patterns to practice (a lot). I took a lesson with Marshall Gilkes about 11 or 12 years ago and he told me a couple of little things that made a huge difference - one of those things (try saying "tuttle" instead of "doo-dle") really helped clarify things in certain registers where my clarity was breaking down. TLDR: Get a lesson with someone you look up to. I do this as often as I can afford the time and money to do it.

Back to the JJ - strain of playing, Slide Hampton is a bit more difficult than JJ and Curtis (for me) but he was my first template for the approach I take to playing salsa. Slide's big sound is the template that much of what I'd call the "modern NYC trombone sound" is based on. I hear his influence (and JJ's of course) being the most common amongst Jazz and Afro-Caribbean musicians coming out of that thing. It's not the only one, of course, NYC gives you a pretty broad sample of aesthetic now-a-days, even in the time of Covid. TLDR: What's your "sound"? A great sound can transcend stylistic concerns. Communicate your truth! Who do you love? What do you love? Play <I>that</I>!

Willie Colon and Jimmy Bosch both have exciting approaches to playing the trombone that translate really well to jazz and most forms of popular music (I prefer Sam's term, Pan-American vernacular music, and use that in my coursework.) Both are known for their work in the Salsa Dura (hard salsa) style - a style that is as much a part of jazz as anything from New Orleans. TLDR: There are no rules against bringing something different to the table as long as you respect the music. So many of the jazz musicians I worship either had Caribbean roots or have actual experience playing other styles of music in addition to jazz.

Teagarden? That stuff's generally quite a bit harder (for some, including me) although there are plenty of his solos that are easy and approachable. Teagarden was all melody. TLDR: Melody was, is, and always will be the primary consideration.

Dorsey? Range makes Dorsey difficult, but most of his songs are very approachable and provide extremely valuable melodic content. In my opinion, knowing at least some Dorsey is absolutely necessary to understanding JJ and his disciples. (And Urbie - jeez.) I remember one of my teachers telling me how huge Dorsey's sound was, how huge JJ's sound was - they weren't just smooth and pristine, they were big and scaled up too. I never could get in the ballpark of that Dorsey sound until I realized I'd been trying to make it too small, too quiet, and that there was a lot more volume there than I thought. TLDR: Sound, sound, sound, sound SOUND!

There used to be a radio station around here that played a lot of old big band stuff from the 30s and 40s. I had never realized how much popular big band literature was out there that featured the trombone so prominently that wasn't Dorsey. TLDR: People have always liked the trombone, they still do. Sometimes context matters...

There are a multitude of approaches to playing the trombone that are successful in improvised music, and not all of them are as difficult as bebop or modern up-tempo straight ahead jazz. If one really wants to be able to rip off blazing flights of fancy at q=350, go for it! Don't feel bad about starting a little slower at first, though. TLDR: Go practice. You'll never be able to hang at some ridiculous tempo on some ridiculous maze of chord changes if you aren't practicing something so much easier, so much slower, right now.

SFA · by **SFA** » 2021-02-01 1:00 a.m.

GREAT POST ExZacLee.

THANK YOU.

FOSSIL · by **FOSSIL** » 2021-02-01 4:03 a.m.

[quote="SFA"]GREAT POST ExZacLee.

THANK YOU.[/quote]
I'll second that. ..just read it all twice...SOOO insightful

Thanks

Chris

imsevimse · by **imsevimse** » 2021-02-01 5:16 a.m.

[quote="FOSSIL"]<QUOTE author="SFA" post_id="139348" time="1612159223" user_id="10701">
GREAT POST ExZacLee.

THANK YOU.[/quote]
I'll second that. ..just read it all twice...SOOO insightful

Thanks

Chris
</QUOTE>

Yes, that was happy reading. I know a guy who can do some Rosolini licks. That's a challenge.

/Tom

ExZacLee · by **ExZacLee** » 2021-02-01 10:14 a.m.

Love you guys.

All of ya'!

CalgaryTbone · by **CalgaryTbone** » 2021-02-01 11:54 a.m.

Great post!

About Urbie - I picked up an old copy of "21 Trombones" on vinyl over the holidays. That was a record my Dad had that we listened to together, and inspired me as a high school trombonist getting serious about the horn. I listened to it last night - Oh my God! Every note Urbie plays is just SO RIGHT! His solos and just the way he plays the tune makes you feel like there's no other version in the world. Even the stuff that sounds like musak is so well-played that you have to get into it. His playing exudes musicality and style - can't help but think that is the secret to a great solo (improv or otherwise). RIP Urbie!

Jim Scott

Posaunus · by **Posaunus** » 2021-02-01 11:58 a.m.

[quote="CalgaryTbone"]Great post!

About Urbie - I picked up an old copy of "21 Trombones" on vinyl over the holidays. That was a record my Dad had that we listened to together, and inspired me as a high school trombonist getting serious about the horn. I listened to it last night - Oh my God! Every note Urbie plays is just SO RIGHT! His solos and just the way he plays the tune makes you feel like there's no other version in the world. Even the stuff that sounds like musak is so well-played that you have to get into it. His playing exudes musicality and style - can't help but think that is the secret to a great solo (improv or otherwise). RIP Urbie!

Jim Scott[/quote]

:good:

This was the record (LP, of course) that, decades ago, really got me excited about the trombone and how wonderful it could sound. I now have it on CD, and still listen.

Unfortunately, I still don't sound like Urbie. :weep:

CalgaryTbone · by **CalgaryTbone** » 2021-02-01 12:28 p.m.

Nobody sounds like Urbie!

I don't want to go too off topic, but there's a great story that Bill Watrous told when he was a guest artist here several years ago.

A trombonist was playing for a weekend show in the Catskills during the summer and the solo artist featured that weekend had just done his show elsewhere - Urbie had been the lead trombonist there. He asked the Catskills guy to take a solo up an octave like Urbie had done. That would have been way in the stratosphere so the next time through, the trombone player played it as written again. The artist said "I'd like you to play it like Urbie". The trombonist replied "if I could play like Urbie, I wouldn't be working here!"

Shumanbean · by **Shumanbean** » 2021-02-04 11:30 p.m.

I tried to play for living when I was much younger, and it usually called for improvisation: Dixie, Traditional Jazz, R&B, and so on. Before I quit playing in 1990, I found that my playing - considered pretty good - was repetitious and boring. Far too many blue notes. I didn't have a clue about harmony. I could play, and I had ideas, but I didn't know how to apply them.

When I resumed playing last year, I began spending time on diatonic scales and arpeggios, Pentatonic scales, and trying to understand the working relationship between those scales and the chords. There's a lot to know, and I'm no spring chicken, but I've found that just having familiarity the scales and arpeggios (including inversions) has really helped.

I also think it's good to listen to other instruments (with the idea of transposing) than just bone players. A lot of good, accessible solos are played by trumpets, pianists. saxes. Years ago, a friend told me I should listen to Chet Baker to get going on improvising. He was right, but I didn't, because he wasn't a bone player.

Technical facility, faithful practice, knowledge of scales, triads, and at least a fundamental understanding of harmony. That and really listen a lot, and play every chance you get, and quit worrying about how you sound compared to other axes.

Windmill · by **Windmill** » 2021-02-17 5:30 a.m.

Interesting thing, that I've also noticed while ago :)

I personaly came to the conclusion that trombone is still kinda stuck in an old-fashioned vibe, and a few players struggle to get it out of there. I just need to stumble into a jam sessions where a few trombonists are, and 90% of the time, each of them takes a real pride to play LOUD, try to play fast (massive fail), and high (very, very musical), use LOADS of effects such as slide vibrato, glissandi, flutter tonguing, etc... And i think to myself... God, is that what listeners expect from trombone ? Answer is.... yes ! The role and place of this instrument in jazz history leads to this point today.

I was fortunate enough to take lessons with other instrument players, such as violin, saxophone, trumpet, piano, who teached me so many things about triads, intervals, tonal centers and other material to improve my solo language. I transcribed a hell load of Michael Brecker's solo and worked out the concepts i like in his playing. And i'd figure out that with a bit of interest and practicing, it's perfectly doable. So i don't think the problem comes from the instrument's technologic aptitude or non-aptitude, but more from the mindframe of the trombonist himself. If we keep thinking that playing fast is hard, we will never give it a chance... On the other side, so many guitar, saxophone, trumpet, piano players think that their instrument allows them to play fast easily technique wise... But how many of them are really able to phrase beautifully and groove all the way ? A few !! I do think it's equally hard to phrase good on any other instrument or on trombone, really :)

As Schumanbean said, the best thing to do is to nourish our language from other instruments than trombone, and dare to step out of the classic "trombone sound" that everybody sounds to be accustomed to.

PaulTdot · by **PaulTdot** » 2021-02-21 7:16 p.m.

I think that these issues come down to two major factors:

1. How difficult more "modern" vocabulary is on a trombone.

In more traditional and old-fashioned styles of music, improvising trombonists are common and effective musicians. However, more modern vocabulary, faster tempos, more intervallic movement, and the need to (for most players) to tongue every note adds a lot of challenges.

I've been blown away by how you can ask a beginner saxophone player or trumpet player to tongue every second note, and suddenly they have a very convincing and swinging articulation, pretty much on the spot. Trombone players, even virtuosos, often still struggle with getting a smooth but rhythmic articulation happening.

2. How much time trombonists devote to improvisation.

I work with a colleague who is a saxophonist. We teach together a lot, and so we often compare notes. When my colleague picks up his saxophone, every day, about 90-95% of his practice time is spent working on improvisation.

And, as Doug says, he doesn't really need to rest as much, and can practice more or longer.

Can you imagine how much more fluent you would be if 90% of your practice time was spent working on improvisation?

In addition, of course, there are other challenges:

3. The lack of good examples, representation, a target to aim for. Trombone players don't hear a recording of Charlie Parker or Coltrane or Michael Brecker the first day they pick up the instrument. No one tells us "ok, you gotta play like this when you get good". The expectations are different. That affects people.

4. Acoustical issues. It's hard to project or to play convincing melodies in the "easy" registers of the trombone. As a beginner trumpet player, you can play fairly convincing solos without developing any upper register, and be heard over a rhythm section. As a trombonist, playing a convincing solo that will actually be heard often requires us to play louder or higher, or with a different sound quality. For instance, if you are playing a solo over big band background figures, chances anything you play below middle C or so is unlikely to ever be heard by anyone. That adds challenge to the whole process. (A lot of improvising trombonists sound dramatically better when playing unaccompanied or with a smaller, quieter band.)

A great teacher of mine once told me that half the reason some of the "greats" sound as good as they do on their albums is because they know to hire drummers who can play with enough sensitivity not to bury the trombone player with volume or acoustic interference. (A similar thing goes for piano players who comp in the same range as your improvisation.)

SaigonSlide · by **SaigonSlide** » 2021-02-22 9:05 a.m.

I found myself shaking my head on a lot of this thread.

First of all, being able to improvise has very little to do with what instrument one decides to express themselves through. It has everything to do with how you are able to hear ideas in your head and then to translate them via whatever you play.

What you hear will be an amalgamation of everything you’ve heard, as was mentioned above already. It takes a long time, and hours upon hours of listening, digesting, and playing. If you think you will learn how to improvise by just waiting for a trombone solo in jazz band and using that as your time to practice, you’re missing the point.

The second part, of course, requires some technique. That’s the harder part for us as the trombone is difficult, and also demands a certain level of muscular endurance to play even basic things. We need to actually create the notes. We can’t push buttons, pluck strings, or press keys. It’s muscle on metal all the time. And if we get out of shape we can’t even play much of anything while our sax player friend can play 12 choruses of any tune any time they want (unfortunately).

For me, I’ve become a better improviser as I’ve gotten older. Mostly because I’ve just had more time to listen and to play more music.

Pre59 · by **Pre59** » 2021-02-22 9:19 a.m.

[quote="PaulTdot"]

I work with a colleague who is a saxophonist. We teach together a lot, and so we often compare notes. When my colleague picks up his saxophone, every day, about 90-95% of his practice time is spent working on improvisation.

[/quote]

And there you have it. Trombone development material is often as far away from the harmonic world of jazz as you can get.

ArbanRubank · by **ArbanRubank** » 2021-02-22 10:46 a.m.

I believe most of us have a warped concept of what a good trombone improv ought to sound like. I think most of us approach it with a concept somewhere between Bill and Gordon and we end up sounding like The Kid on his very, very worst day.

VJOFan · by **VJOFan** » 2021-02-27 11:39 a.m.

I find a lot of improvisation terrible to listen to. On any instrument. Players seem to be trying to play stuff that other studied players will be impressed by or appreciate. (Watch as I work my way out of the key and then play this exotic scale!) Players just making music seems to be rare.

I was first introduced to Rita Payes on these pages and have followed her ever since. Her latest video drop, I think, shows a bunch of musicians just playing to make beautiful affecting sounds. There is only a little trombone in this track but the entire thing is very fun. I wish more jazz was just players trying to make beautiful, entertaining sounds.

<YOUTUBE id="8nfwK6Deu3E">https://youtu.be/8nfwK6Deu3E</YOUTUBE>

Doug_Elliott · by **Doug_Elliott** » 2021-02-27 11:49 a.m.

Rita is really great, and some of the videos are of her whole family. Growing up in that environment certainly helps.

ArbanRubank · by **ArbanRubank** » 2021-02-27 11:54 a.m.

I personally believe we would all do well simply to play like Diana Krall sings.

Elow · 2021-02-27 12:00 p.m.

PaulTdot · by **PaulTdot** » 2021-02-27 2:14 p.m.

I also enjoy her playing a great deal. Very nice, melodic approach. I've used her as an example for students sometimes. It's clear that her approach to improvising is quite polished and natural, unlike the stereotypical trombonist that is being considered in this thread: I would guess she's been quite unafraid to experiment with improvisation since a young age, and developed good instincts as well as techniques, in order to be able to play freely and organically.

And it doesn't hurt to have an example of an excellent, young, female, upstream player to point to. (Shannon Barnett is another such example, so we're getting spoiled here!)

baileyman · by **baileyman** » 2021-02-27 4:16 p.m.

Great guitar.

Doug_Elliott · by **Doug_Elliott** » 2021-02-27 5:55 p.m.

Yeah, Rita's mother is a really good jazz guitar player.

brtnats · by **brtnats** » 2021-02-28 6:21 a.m.

[quote="PaulTdot"]I also enjoy her playing a great deal. Very nice, melodic approach. I've used her as an example for students sometimes. It's clear that her approach to improvising is quite polished and natural, unlike the stereotypical trombonist that is being considered in this thread: I would guess she's been quite unafraid to experiment with improvisation since a young age, and developed good instincts as well as techniques, in order to be able to play freely and organically.

And it doesn't hurt to have an example of an excellent, young, female, upstream player to point to. (Shannon Barnett is another such example, so we're getting spoiled here!)[/quote]

She’s actually a product of top-notch music education in lower and secondary schools plus social support for growing musicians. My guess would be she’s lived with it so long it appears to be second nature.

bigbandbone · by **bigbandbone** » 2021-02-28 6:43 p.m.

I have to be honest. I have not read all the responses in this thread. But the question itself bothers me!

If you want to be good at something - practice, practice, practice.

And don't take something on stage until it's solid, 100%.

My early improv solos were very simple. Just minor variations on the melody.

As I practiced more, they became more interesting.

But I NEVER tried something in performance that wasn't solid. And very rarely missed the changes.

Practice, practice, practice!

Pre59 · by **Pre59** » 2021-03-01 4:27 a.m.

[quote="brtnats"]<QUOTE author="PaulTdot" post_id="142128" time="1614453278" user_id="4457">
I also enjoy her playing a great deal. Very nice, melodic approach. I've used her as an example for students sometimes. It's clear that her approach to improvising is quite polished and natural, unlike the stereotypical trombonist that is being considered in this thread: I would guess she's been quite unafraid to experiment with improvisation since a young age, and developed good instincts as well as techniques, in order to be able to play freely and organically.

And it doesn't hurt to have an example of an excellent, young, female, upstream player to point to. (Shannon Barnett is another such example, so we're getting spoiled here!)[/quote]

She’s actually a product of top-notch music education in lower and secondary schools plus social support for growing musicians. My guess would be she’s lived with it so long it appears to be second nature.
</QUOTE>

Here's a quote from an interview with Joan Chamorro of the Sant Andreu Jazz Band about some of his his teaching methods.

JC: I have many moments in my life that indicate to me which paths are more correct or not, so that, finally, the music ends up becoming something beautiful and to learn and give the best of us. I have been creating work systems, including musical language books, with new ways of teaching the rudiments of music and also more advanced things. It is based on the voice, as the main instrument. I rely on singing and listening to much music from the beginning, from the first day. And, above all, the first years, it is very important, so that young musicians get caught with what. I propose to them, to play many beautiful melodies, that they can sing and memorize. The first two years I do not care at all that they do not read or write music. I just want them to sing and play from memory. That they do not need sheet music (the coding of the language will come gradually)

ArbanRubank · by **ArbanRubank** » 2021-03-01 8:31 a.m.

[quote="bigbandbone"]I have to be honest. I have not read all the responses in this thread. But the question itself bothers me!

If you want to be good at something - practice, practice, practice.

And don't take something on stage until it's solid, 100%.

My early improv solos were very simple. Just minor variations on the melody.

As I practiced more, they became more interesting.

But I NEVER tried something in performance that wasn't solid. And very rarely missed the changes.

Practice, practice, practice![/quote]

Seems like a very professional approach!

brtnats · by **brtnats** » 2021-03-03 6:06 a.m.

[quote="bigbandbone"]I have to be honest. I have not read all the responses in this thread. But the question itself bothers me!

If you want to be good at something - practice, practice, practice.

And don't take something on stage until it's solid, 100%.

My early improv solos were very simple. Just minor variations on the melody.

As I practiced more, they became more interesting.

But I NEVER tried something in performance that wasn't solid. And very rarely missed the changes.

Practice, practice, practice![/quote]

There is so much wisdom in this post. We call it “improvising,” which gives the impression we’re pulling it out of nothingness. The truth is that it takes *so much* dedicated practice of scales, chords, tunes, and techniques to be able to pull those notes out at the appropriate time. If JJ Johnson prepared material, there’s no reason everyone shouldn’t.

Reedman1 · by **Reedman1** » 2021-03-18 7:45 a.m.

I think ExZacLee makes most of the good points. From the point of view of playing, the trombone is really no harder to solo well on than any other instrument - I have played a bunch of them, and know whereof I speak. The thing is to develop ear and technique and a concept that permits you to be musical, expressive and entertaining. From the point of getting opportunities to solo, look for them and ask for them, and then do a good job. You think it’s harder to run scales or resolve up half steps? Then work on it, and do something else. What about rhythmic solos? What about lyricism? I’ve heard plenty of trumpets, saxes, pianos, guitars, etc with note-diarrhea, and I’m not impressed. Give me Higgy. Give me Pres. Give me Chet and Gerry. Listen to one brief solo by Wycliffe or Gilkes and tell me trombonists have to suck at solos. If you suck at soloing, get better at it. It’s not impossible.

PaulTdot · by **PaulTdot** » 2021-03-18 12:46 p.m.

Spend a lot of time with a colleague who's a great improviser. Practice together; see what they work on, do it as well. How much time do they spend? What do they do, for how long, what do they focus on? What do they listen to?

If you don't see results... well, you will.

lowcatjb · 2021-03-18 1:51 p.m.

They don't suck. It's just that most people judge the playing by judging the technique. It's understandable, because technique is quantifiable and therefore easy to judge. Saxophone players can get more notes in, so obviously they must be the better musicians, right?

This is really the problem. Music, being art, is inherently subjective. Who's a better painter, Picasso or Vermeer? Your answer to that question is based on your knowledge of art and your personal preferences.

Who plays a "better" solo? JJ Johnson, or a 22-year-old alto saxophone player who just graduated from college and can play 6,000 16th notes in a minute and a half? If more equals better, then: Sorry, JJ!

But go and listen to some of JJ's solos. Listen to how much he gets out of a few notes. He's creative, unique and plays memorable phrases.

The college student plays 6,000 16th notes in a minute and a half, but how much of it is recycled patterns and licks? How much of it could you hear out of most other recent graduates? How much of it are you actually going to remember? How many phrases got stuck in your ear like the ones JJ might have played?

Technique is only a means to an end. It's an important means but it is not the end in and of itself.

Bach5G · by **Bach5G** » 2021-03-18 3:02 p.m.

It wouldn’t hurt to get a couple of lessons with someone (a trombone player) who doesn’t suck.

bachtothefuture · by **bachtothefuture** » 2021-03-18 8:38 p.m.

I agree, and I think it's because it's the way we are "raised." Improvising is taking a melody and playing around with it and making it your own. From beginning band, trombones rarely play any melody. Most band parts are rhythmic and chordal background support lines with maybe 8 bars of melody in any given pice. Orchestra - ha...forget it. We are trained to support and accompany, not play lead or the melody, so we trombone players don't really get to develpo a melodic ear, and melodies don't get ingrained into brain and muscle memory. Yeah, we can all the orchestral exerpts, but ask a bone player to play a melody...uh///how about star wars?

imsevimse · 2021-03-20 2:01 p.m.

Before Christian Lindberg came to the scene it was accepted to be told you play an instrument that was NOT a melody-instrument. I remember my classmates said that when I studied trombone as a 16 year old at a music program. Later after graduating from the Royal college of Music in Stockholm as a 25-year old and got a job as a music teacher on all brass at a public music school one of my colleagues, a piano teacher told me the trombone was not a melody instrument. I remember I played him a record with Branimiir Slokar on alto to prove a point. He could agree the instrument could play melodies after that but rather reluctant. This was about when Chistian started his career. After he got known here in the 80-ies nobody ever have said the instrument could not be used as an effective solo instrument.

I know this thread is about improvising and that's not quite the same. What Christian did was to play the trombone in a way we forget it is a trombone. It is just lovely music and everything he touches becomes music

He can turn the worst concert to a masterpiece. That's what we have to do when we improvise too.

/Tom

Geordie · by **Geordie** » 2021-03-20 3:04 p.m.

[quote="lowcatjb"]

Snip

Technique is only a means to an end. It's an important means but it is not the end in and of itself.

Snip[/quote]

<EMOJI seq="1f446" tseq="1f446">👆</EMOJI><EMOJI seq="1f446" tseq="1f446">👆</EMOJI> This <EMOJI seq="1f446" tseq="1f446">👆</EMOJI><EMOJI seq="1f446" tseq="1f446">👆</EMOJI>

Pre59 · by **Pre59** » 2021-03-20 4:04 p.m.

[quote="imsevimse"]Before Christian Lindberg came to the scene it was accepted to be told you play an instrument that was NOT a melody-instrument. I remember my classmates said that when I studied trombone as a 16 year old at a music program. Later after graduating from the Royal college of Music in Stockholm as a 25-year old and got a job as a music teacher on all brass at a public music school one of my colleagues, a piano teacher told me the trombone was not a melody instrument.

/Tom[/quote]

This is so far from my experience in the UK as a young man. Melodic trombone playing was all over the BBC, you could hear beautiful playing almost every day. My teachers would tell me that the trombone is very close to the human voice, and to think about singing it, not just playing it.

I had a regular Sunday lunchtime duo gig for several years, just tbn and gtr. I had that gig because the local sax players couldn't or wouldn't play melodies by ear, even less play requests. I play leads in a four piece band because again, the reed player can't or won't.

I don't buy it that the tbn isn't or can't be a jazz or melody instrument, but it really helps to know where every note is in the "bad lands" beyond the bell..

Bach5G · by **Bach5G** » 2021-03-20 4:45 p.m.

[quote="bachtothefuture"]I agree, and I think it's because it's the way we are "raised." Improvising is taking a melody and playing around with it and making it your own. From beginning band, trombones rarely play any melody. Most band parts are rhythmic and chordal background support lines with maybe 8 bars of melody in any given pice. Orchestra - ha...forget it. We are trained to support and accompany, not play lead or the melody, so we trombone players don't really get to develpo a melodic ear, and melodies don't get ingrained into brain and muscle memory. Yeah, we can all the orchestral exerpts, but ask a bone player to play a melody...uh///how about star wars?[/quote]

Tommy Dorsey

imsevimse · by **imsevimse** » 2021-03-20 4:49 p.m.

[quote="Pre59"]<QUOTE author="imsevimse" post_id="143966" time="1616263302" user_id="3173">
Before Christian Lindberg came to the scene it was accepted to be told you play an instrument that was NOT a melody-instrument. I remember my classmates said that when I studied trombone as a 16 year old at a music program. Later after graduating from the Royal college of Music in Stockholm as a 25-year old and got a job as a music teacher on all brass at a public music school one of my colleagues, a piano teacher told me the trombone was not a melody instrument.

/Tom[/quote]

This is so far from my experience in the UK as a young man. Melodic trombone playing was all over the BBC, you could hear beautiful playing almost every day. My teachers would tell me that the trombone is very close to the human voice, and to think about singing it, not just playing it.

I had a regular Sunday lunchtime duo gig for several years, just tbn and gtr. I had that gig because the local sax players couldn't or wouldn't play melodies by ear, even less play requests. I play leads in a four piece band because again, the reed player can't or won't.

I don't buy it that the tbn isn't or can't be a jazz or melody instrument, but it really helps to know where every note is in the "bad lands" beyond the bell..
</QUOTE>

I remember Denis Vick came over to Stockholm and did some masterclasses in the 80-ies. He was the God. The guys in the Philip Jones Brass Ensamble were my heroes. We had players who cold play good here but the instrument was not exposed as a solo instrument and that was the real problem, even teachers had no idea what a trombone could do. In commercial music there were of course soloists but to hear trombone concerts live was very rare before Christian became known, then he played a lot here but very soon he started to tour the world instead. A good thing is I never hear someone say a trombone is not a solo instrument today. That's a big change. In UK you have a long tradition of brass brand and I think that is an important difference. We have never had much of that. In Sweden we sing in choires instead.

Lately there is another problem and that is all windinstrument has a crisis. Not many choose to play a windinstrument today. I predict there will be fewer tromboneplayers in a couple of decades and the ones who play then might be worse than the ones that play today because there will be less of the competition. The ones in the future might suck even more at improvisation than the ones that do it today.

/Tom

Doug_Elliott · by **Doug_Elliott** » 2021-03-20 5:49 p.m.

Maybe not many choose to play, but the ones who do are far more dedicated and have much more numerous good influences.

But the way beginners are taught hasn't changed much, if at all. The great examples listed aren't necessarily heard by kids who listen to entirely different music. Or "music."

Pre59 · by **Pre59** » 2021-03-20 6:26 p.m.

I think that the trombones melodic role has been usurped in part by the fluglelhorn. Being able to play a melody well in the higher register is usually the mark of an accomplished trombonist, but an average trumpeter can play the same piece on a fluglehorn sounding in the same register with ease.

With the increase in the bore and mouhpiece sizes, playing extended higher pitched leads and solos has become more difficult and so even less likely.

Grah · by **Grah** » 2021-03-20 7:05 p.m.

I do not agree that Trombonists Suck At Improvising. The reason I took up the trombone is because,when I used to go around all the London and suburban jazz clubs in my youth, it was the trombone players' improvisations that mainly interested me: Roy Williams, Chris Barber, George Chisholm, etc., etc.

If you want to play good jazz, however, it is important that you study the improvisation techniques. I had a great teacher in Owen Bryce, a trumpet player who was one of the instigators of Traditional Jazz in Great Britain:

<LINK_TEXT text="https://www.greenwich.co.uk/blogs/mary- ... wen-bryce/">https://www.greenwich.co.uk/blogs/mary-mills/obituary-owen-bryce/</LINK_TEXT>

Get yourselves some good jazz theory books and find some good mates to play with. I would also recommend that you get the Band-in-a-Box software, so that you can practice at home with a good rhythm section and listen to their jazz improvisers.

And read my signature note.<EMOJI seq="1f60e" tseq="1f60e">😎</EMOJI>

ArbanRubank · by **ArbanRubank** » 2021-03-20 8:18 p.m.

The ones who suck at it have never practiced it. We really shouldn't expect to be good at something we don't practice at on any level. I've been practicing it for a couple of months now. I suck a little less at it.

FOSSIL · by **FOSSIL** » 2021-03-21 6:19 a.m.

I've been working at it for a year now and I'm without doubt better....whether that equates to publicly better is another matter<EMOJI seq="1f644" tseq="1f644">🙄</EMOJI><EMOJI seq="1f644" tseq="1f644">🙄</EMOJI> but even if I never play an improvised note in public it has been well worth it . I have developed my listening skills and can hear everything in the backing band so much more clearly and am able to get out through the bell, what is in my head... the quality of that thought is not for me to judge but it is at least mine and aural awareness is a good skill to develop. I could improvise before this but not as intuitively or as comfortably as now.

I understand improvisation better and understand improvisers better and that has been a lockdown positive for me.

Chris

Doug_Elliott · by **Doug_Elliott** » 2021-03-21 11:04 a.m.

:good: :good: :good: :good: :good:

:clever: :clever: :clever: :clever: :clever:

PaulTdot · by **PaulTdot** » 2021-03-21 1:31 p.m.

That sound fantastic! Non-beginner/non-children who start improvising are really interesting to observe and study. I have a lot of tools I use when I teach improvisation to classical musicians (something I've done a fair bit), so it's a topic of great interest to me. I'd love to hear how you approached it - if you developed your awareness and ears to that extent, you must have been doing something right!

imsevimse · by **imsevimse** » 2021-03-21 3:35 p.m.

[quote="FOSSIL"]I've been working at it for a year now and I'm without doubt better....whether that equates to publicly better is another matter<EMOJI seq="1f644" tseq="1f644">🙄</EMOJI><EMOJI seq="1f644" tseq="1f644">🙄</EMOJI> but even if I never play an improvised note in public it has been well worth it . I have developed my listening skills and can hear everything in the backing band so much more clearly and am able to get out through the bell, what is in my head... the quality of that thought is not for me to judge but it is at least mine and aural awareness is a good skill to develop. I could improvise before this but not as intuitively or as comfortably as now.

I understand improvisation better and understand improvisers better and that has been a lockdown positive for me.

Chris[/quote]
Respekt! :good:

/Tom

FOSSIL · by **FOSSIL** » 2021-03-21 6:53 p.m.

[quote="PaulTdot"]That sound fantastic! Non-beginner/non-children who start improvising are really interesting to observe and study. I have a lot of tools I use when I teach improvisation to classical musicians (something I've done a fair bit), so it's a topic of great interest to me. I'd love to hear how you approached it - if you developed your awareness and ears to that extent, you must have been doing something right![/quote]

Well, I started out with my scales and technique and experience, but also with a lifelong focus on written notation to hold me back... basically, backing tracks and doing and listening....a lot of doing every day. Like everything in music, practise is central. Sonic information in, playing out....you just have to do a LOT of playing, and be patient but persistent. Putting a priority on non written playing is like entering a different world but in a good way. I have found the whole experience very positive and beneficial to my general playing. More than anything, it's been fun !!

Chris

PaulTdot · by **PaulTdot** » 2021-03-21 7:28 p.m.

Wonderful! Good for you. I dig that!

ArbanRubank · by **ArbanRubank** » 2021-03-21 10:09 p.m.

[quote="Grah"]...I would also recommend that you get the Band-in-a-Box software, so that you can practice at home with a good rhythm section and listen to their jazz improvisers...[/quote]

I have been wondering why sometimes chord notes I play don't work very well with a BiaB accompaniment. Apparently, there is a setting in preferences where BiaB will either play the chord as notated, or modify it on-the-fly for a jazz style. For instance, if a chord is notated as a C7, it might get interpreted by BiaB as a C9 or C13. So it may be wise to set the preference for BiaB to play the chord as notated and I believe they refer to that as "natural"!

baileyman · by **baileyman** » 2021-03-22 10:57 a.m.

That's funny. Guys used to lean over to the piano and say, "Just give me the plain chords." All those extensions take up your space. Dave McKenna was brilliant at that.

Here's an exercise, if interested:

Do ii7 V7 IM in this way. Eb is easy to illustrate. In quarters,

F Ab C Eb | D Bb Ab F | Eb Eb Eb Eb | (maybe rest) |

Cycle through until it's fully in you. Then go around the circle, Ab, Db, Gb, etc. back to Eb. Go around again and again.

Listen for additional notes to play above and below the pattern but still getting back to IM. Find ways to move the notes higher and lower with the same chord sound result. Eventually all sorts of chromatic notes will suggest themselves. It takes time to hear. Months. You may find some of these notes becoming iii7 VI7 instead of IM, then it turns around to go again. Go around again and again.

Expand your horizons, after a good long while, and brick some other small patterns the same way. Pretty soon it all adds up.

Oh, and make those quarters swing.

ArbanRubank · by **ArbanRubank** » 2021-03-22 11:55 a.m.

LOL! That's why I like pop tunes written by someone who isn't a big-time, big-name composer. The chords are simple! If I can't ad lib my way through Amy Winehouse's "Back To Black", then I must be having an exceedingly bad day. She could sing, but could only play the guitar this side of just a little bit.

Ad lib! I wonder what - if any - is the dif between that term and "improv". My instructor tells me (I love this guy) that I play an obbligato part to my music. Grrrrrr.

baileyman · by **baileyman** » 2021-03-23 9:57 a.m.

The point I should state more clearly.

This note sequence F Ab C Eb | D Bb Ab F | Eb is really a melody. You get it in your head. From every starting note. Then after a while you hear differences that "rhyme" with it. Then when it's time to play, you may hear the rhymes and you're on your way.

Prolly works just the same on Amy Winehouse.

ArbanRubank · by **ArbanRubank** » 2021-03-23 11:31 a.m.

Thanks! I should have responded to this progression you posted earlier. Sorry. Yes, that is a nice progression and it makes a melody. Someone stated once that if we are stuck for melody notes in a song improv attempt, chord notes will suffice nicely. I like to use scale notes in-between chords if the chords are easy enough and the tempo is slow.

That's a pretty standard progression, so it ought to work in any key. For practice, we could put one chord in a measure, or one chord for multiple measures, with lots of combinations.

Bach5G · by **Bach5G** » 2021-03-23 3:58 p.m.

“This note sequence F Ab C Eb | D Bb Ab F | Eb is really a melody.”

ii7 - V7 (Fm7 - Bb7).

grafemberg · by **grafemberg** » 2021-04-02 10:24 a.m.

[quote="ExZacLee"]...a visit to the repair store lead to the discovery of a massive obstruction in my leadpipe (a pencil) and the horn got easier.[/quote]

A PENCIL!?!

LOL

to answer the topic I 'd say we have to think different because we can't hide in a note swarm

ArbanRubank · by **ArbanRubank** » 2021-04-02 11:26 a.m.

[quote="grafemberg"]to answer the topic I 'd say we have to think different because we can't hide in a note swarm[/quote]

True that!

I have found the Charlie Parker method - as I rudimentarily understand it - a bit useful. In the PBS special "Jazz", it was mentioned that he used scale notes to navigate between chord notes, always resolving into the chord.

Two outstanding trombone players remarked once: "I can't play melodically, so I play fast". The other said, "I can't play fast, so I play melodically".

PaulTdot · by **PaulTdot** » 2021-04-02 11:52 a.m.

Yeah, that's solid.

I remember it being a bit of a light bulb moment for me when I was reading the Miles Davis autobiography, and he talks about "learning to play the chords" rather than the typical "learn the scales" approach we tend to see in improvisation instruction these days.

Another light bulb moment was learning that great players, when they play "fast", are also playing just as melodically as ever. Take a blistering 32nd-note run played by Charlie Parker, slow it down, and see just how powerfully melodic it is.

Bach5G · by **Bach5G** » 2021-04-02 12:03 p.m.

Yes, but which chords and which “in between” notes?

Doug_Elliott · by **Doug_Elliott** » 2021-04-02 12:39 p.m.

[quote="Bach5G"]Yes, but which chords and which “in between” notes?[/quote]
The right ones

ArbanRubank · by **ArbanRubank** » 2021-04-02 12:54 p.m.

Try playing the same songs over and over again for a few months. That's what they do. No wonder they get good at it.

PaulTdot · by **PaulTdot** » 2021-04-02 1:06 p.m.

Yeah, Doug's got it.

The "right" chords are the chords of the tune, usually. The "right" in-between notes are generally going to be diatonic to the key (that's a good easy starting point), but jazz musicians will also use a variety of chromaticism and other devices to navigate from chord tone to chord tone. I have a variety of exercises I do with my students around this kind of practice, and the rest is listening and imitation.

ArbanRubank · by **ArbanRubank** » 2021-04-02 1:20 p.m.

[quote="PaulTdot"]Yeah, that's solid.

I remember it being a bit of a light bulb moment for me when I was reading the Miles Davis autobiography, and he talks about "learning to play the chords" rather than the typical "learn the scales" approach we tend to see in improvisation instruction these days.

Another light bulb moment was learning that great players, when they play "fast", are also playing just as melodically as ever. Take a blistering 32nd-note run played by Charlie Parker, slow it down, and see just how powerfully melodic it is.[/quote]

I'm not wishing to seem like a smarty-pants, but I do believe it is how broadly you wish to define the term "melodic". When I listen to Charlie Parker's "Bird" album, I don't hear out-of-tune notes, in relationship to the composition. And yet I have a very difficult time keeping the true melody line running through my head as he improvs off it. So either I need more training or he needed to stick a little closer to the actual melody (lol). So then, what exactly IS "melodic"? One definition is "pleasant sounding". By that standard, Charlie Parker was melodious, even when he didn't stick to the melody - - and it sounds contradictory, but that's jazz!

Edit: If someone is said to be a "melodic" player, then that just really means they don't hit "sour" or weird-sounding notes. However, if one states that they play more melodically than someone else, then I believe they mean they stick closer to the actual melody line and the more someone deviates from the true melody line, the less "melodic" they are playing. So there are a few different ways to look at it.

PaulTdot · by **PaulTdot** » 2021-04-02 2:32 p.m.

I invite you to investigate for yourself. :)

It's not easy to define what is a "good melody", but lots of theorists have tried. Voice leading, interval structure, balance of consonance and dissonance, motivic incorporation, thematic development, use of the Golden Mean, and so forth. You'll find a lot of these elements in the playing of the great jazz improvisers, no matter what tempo they're playing.

For whatever your standard of a good melody, transcribe some melodies played by great jazz musicians - perhaps Parker or Clifford Brown or Artie Shaw - and see if they satisfy those standards. You might be surprised... very surprised. I once transcribed a running 8th-note melody improvisation over a simplified rhythm changes progression by Hank Mobley, and, to this day, playing through it slowly gives me the same kind of melodic appreciation and thrill (oh, the voice leading! glorious) as any masterpiece by Bach.

(And it's basically because once you develop your melodic tools, you don't - can't - simply "throw them out the window" when playing at a faster tempo. A musician like that has the same sense of melody and the same standards they set for themselves, as well as the same technical devices they have practiced, regardless of the performance situation. Practice beautiful melodies slowly, and when you play at a faster tempo, you'll still be drawn to the same melodic tools, both by your ear and by your muscle memory.)

ArbanRubank · by **ArbanRubank** » 2021-04-02 2:50 p.m.

[quote="ArbanRubank"]I have found the Charlie Parker method - as I rudimentarily understand it - a bit useful. In the PBS special "Jazz", it was mentioned that he used scale notes to navigate between chord notes, always resolving into the chord.[/quote]

[quote="Bach5G"]Yes, but which chords and which “in between” notes?[/quote]

I presume it's the chords that either the composer or the arranger used in the piece. Or else it becomes the chords the lead player (keyboard, guitar, etc) is playing in the moment - which you may not see on the page because either there is no page or they aren't marked in on your part (usually).

Any note "in-between" any two chord notes within a chord or in-between the ending and beginning notes of adjacent chords - if they are being played laterally, or otherwise in-between stacked chord notes from one chord to the next, is how I interpreted it.

I have found that it is useful but not drop-dead imperative to have access to those chords. Someone with a nicely trained ear can determine which notes will sound good, even if he can't exactly alphanumerically identify the chords he is hearing.

Bach5G · by **Bach5G** » 2021-04-02 3:48 p.m.

Hmmmmm.

Gershwin’s original changes to the bridge of I Got Rhythm are:

D7 | G7 | C7 | F7 |

I have a list of 25 different versions of the bridge.

Which is the “right” one?

ArbanRubank · by **ArbanRubank** » 2021-04-02 4:01 p.m.

The one you deem at the moment.

ArbanRubank · by **ArbanRubank** » 2021-04-02 4:24 p.m.

[quote="PaulTdot"]I invite you to investigate for yourself. :)

It's not easy to define what is a "good melody", but lots of theorists have tried. Voice leading, interval structure, balance of consonance and dissonance, motivic incorporation, thematic development, use of the Golden Mean, and so forth. You'll find a lot of these elements in the playing of the great jazz improvisers, no matter what tempo they're playing.

For whatever your standard of a good melody, transcribe some melodies played by great jazz musicians - perhaps Parker or Clifford Brown or Artie Shaw - and see if they satisfy those standards. You might be surprised... very surprised. I once transcribed a running 8th-note melody improvisation over a simplified rhythm changes progression by Hank Mobley, and, to this day, playing through it slowly gives me the same kind of melodic appreciation and thrill (oh, the voice leading! glorious) as any masterpiece by Bach.

(And it's basically because once you develop your melodic tools, you don't - can't - simply "throw them out the window" when playing at a faster tempo. A musician like that has the same sense of melody and the same standards they set for themselves, as well as the same technical devices they have practiced, regardless of the performance situation. Practice beautiful melodies slowly, and when you play at a faster tempo, you'll still be drawn to the same melodic tools, both by your ear and by your muscle memory.)[/quote]

Thanks. That's what I've been doing a while now, investigating via listening and playing. I acquired the top 10 (by sales) jazz albums of all time. I'm listening and trying to determine why they have been deemed so great. That Miles Davis "Kind Of Blue"!!!

I've done my share of transcriptions. They are tedious for me to do and sometimes quite odd. Sometimes some notes seem to defy transcription. I think maybe they were "mistake" notes that were lipped into tune. I also think some were purposely lipped sharp of flat. Then there seems to be places where all the notes from everyone on a given phrase lie in-between intervals - as though the producer slowed the tape down momentarily for a desired effect. Whew! The things I have run into transcribing. And sometimes I can only approximate note values. So on those transcribed charts, I have written a note to self. "Self, the pitches are good. Ad lib the note durations and put them in sync with the backing". After all, printed notes are just a guide; roadmap if you will.

Per my listening to Diana Krall, I do like to slow some melodies down. Interesting how a typical pop tune can be turned into a sappy, sentimental ballad! The thing I want to avoid is taking a cheerful song and turning it into a dirge - the way the Lennon Sisters used to do on the Lawrence Welk show! :shuffle:

Another interesting thing to do is to give a song a Bossa style.

I previewed TomPlay (I think). It's nice, but I'm not a fan of Karaoke playing and that's basically what it is. With my backing software running, I will sometimes abandon the melody line altogether and just improv off the chords if I think I can get away with it. For my money, a song is well composed if the melody line leaps out of the chord changes.

ArbanRubank · by **ArbanRubank** » 2021-04-12 10:44 a.m.

So how's everybody doing at this task?

I'm finding it hard NOT to embellish or improvise off a melody line! Lol. I feel a little like Kirk Douglas in "Young Man With A Horn", sitting there taking off in places where maybe he shouldn't and getting kicked out of the group for it. Nice problem to have, I think.

I have also found I tend to do better when I do two things:

1) Modulate the piece into a key into which I can feel the music better

2) Keep the chords simplified (for now)

3) Play with either a bucket or a Harmon mute. I don't know why, but it just feels more jazzy - a Dizzy Gillespie kinda thing, I guess.

Oops. Three things.

Anyway, I hope everyone is still at this and doing well, or at least having fun, if nothing else.

ArbanRubank · by **ArbanRubank** » 2021-04-14 10:22 a.m.

<YOUTUBE id="U9c_KttvQPU">~~[media]~~https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=U9c_KttvQPU</YOUTUBE>

RIP to those who find this just isn't for them. :weep: You tried!

SackbuttRobert · by **SackbuttRobert** » 2021-05-19 9:08 a.m.

When I switched to sackbut, I found it easier to improvise. First, there's the melody, counter melody that you are always playing. I started with embellishments. Of course, I can only improvise in Early Music genres. Which leads me to my peak improvisation moment (or half a day). I was working a Renaissance Faire in LA (the original). My band was usually three tenor sackbuts, a cornetto and an alto shawm. The cornetto player insisted he keep all of the music and I was stupid enough to agree (keeping people happy is pretty hard). One day, the two other sackbut players couldn't make it so they hired a ringer who played jazz but never Renaissance music. The cornettist's car broke down (this is 1986 so no cell phones). We waited and waited, but then we had to go on (playing in a tower above the main gate).

So, we improvised the whole set based on melodies that I or the alto shawm player knew. We would start in a slow 4 and play for a while, single to hold for a chord and then play the same melody in a fast 3. Or we would start in 3 and switch to 4 and then go back again to the original-ish version. It was a blast and we then added an improvised piece to our regular set. It was a definite plus that our audience had no idea what we were supposed to sound like. I did find that I naturally went minor. I guess it was easier to go down than up. The only comment was that our music sounded sadder. I am sure it was the most memorable gig for the jazz trombonist.

griffinben · by **griffinben** » 2021-05-20 5:47 p.m.

Reading this, I see three threads that I agree with that deserve to be connected:

1.) It's more difficult to play on a technical, seemingly virtuosic level on the trombone compared to some other instruments.

2.) Improvisation is about creation and hearing more than you did the day before (Thanks, Doug. I love this.).

3.) You learn vocabulary by listening to masters.

Because the trombone presents a unique set of technical challenges, it requires a unique and creative set of solutions. Part of the reason trombone players "suck" at improvising is that they are taught in the same cookie-cutter manner as other instruments. While there is much to the foundational knowledge that applies directly to the trombone (and all instruments), the execution cannot and should not be expected to be the same.

Creativity is the solution. You do not need a technically virtuosic level akin to a saxophone player to be an effective improviser in the same setting.

Looking to trombone masters is one way to illuminate possible pathways. Different artists have chosen different paths, based on their ideas, creativity, and hard work. They find their voice and develop it. They develop different aspects of virtuosity - sound, articulation, storytelling, rhythm, time feel. These are creatively virtuosic goals that are achievable on the trombone.

For better or worse, this is not the face of entry-level jazz education. Hell, I experienced the same cookie-cutter mentality at one of our premier jazz conservatories from most of my non-trombone instructors. Learn scales, chords, arpeggios, forms, patterns, etc. Those things are important, but they are the tools you use to build the house - they aren't the creative architecture or storyline.

This is a subject close to my heart, because I HATE being passed up for solos in a band setting because the assumption is that I have trombone and therefore I suck at improvising. I came to creativity through a lot of work on technique and emulating the masters. I came to creativity through the back door. (The creatives grabbed my ear the most.)

Until we change focus, trombonist will face the same difficulties they currently do.

----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

I also want to address the fallacy of ease as relates to saxophone's technical superiority. it is easy to gain an approximation of technical virtuosity (just push the buttons). True mastery in time, idea development, tone, creativity, innovation, etc. requires the same discipline as any other instrument. While they do not have to deal with the technical stressors of playing an asymmetrical instrument like the trombone, they still need to do more to push buttons to be true masters. Not hearing the difference is in the ears of the listener.

Bach5G · by **Bach5G** » 2021-05-20 6:28 p.m.

One could do worse than memorize a bunch of Steve Davis solos.

soseggnchips · by **soseggnchips** » 2021-05-21 5:44 a.m.

I think part of the issue is that 'sucking' is a phase you have to go through - you're learning to internalise sounds and working out what works and sounds good in a given context, largely through trial and error. That means, by definition you're going to spend a lot of time playing stuff that sounds bad.

We all sounded bad when we first learned to play the instrument. But, most of us were children, and if we even realised how bad we sounded it didn't matter, because so did all our peers - it was normal. Generally, people learn to improvise when they're a bit older and they can already play. If you're already a decent player, it's embarrassing and frustrating to sound bad when you improvise - it's upsetting because it's not consistent with where you are as a player, and it makes it hard to perservere through the 'suck' phase.

I'd wouldn't claim to be a particularly strong improviser, but I was fortunate at a young age to play in a group for beginning improvisers. We all sounded bad, so there was no stigma attached - we just got plenty of face-time blowing solos and slowly got to the point were we could play some 'right' notes and sucked a bit less.

Ideally, you'd get students playing by ear and improvising as early as possible - as soon as they play their first notes, alongside learning to read. That way, they'd build far more experience and could get the 'suck' phase out of the way nice and early. That's how folk musicians, rock and pop musicians, etc. learn and they all seem to manage just fine. Unfortunately the expectation for band/orchestra instruments like the trombone is that reading and technique are top priority and everything else is a 'nice to have'.

At the risk of going on a rant, I do think the typical approach to learning jazz improvisation is deeply unhelpful. Everyone describes jazz as a language. We don't teach babies to speak by sitting them in the corner with a dictionary and the rules of grammar, but that's exactly how we expect people to learn jazz with the 'theory-first' approach that's commonly used. Much better to pick a few notes of a chord and learn to really hear/feel what they sound like so you can start to build melodies out of them.

ArbanRubank · by **ArbanRubank** » 2021-05-21 7:36 a.m.

For practice, I'll cue up an old standard with the following format:

First time through, I'll stick with the melody line and try to play it as pretty as possible. But while I'm doing that, I am studying the melody line with it's chords and thinking about what I actually would do if it were my turn at a solo.

The second time through, I'll try to develop some of the ideas I had when I played through it the first time.

The third time through, I'll try to expand upon what I learned the first two times and see how far I can take it without squawking. In any case, I usually try to re-state the last phrase of the melody line clearly and then give it a little tag at the very end.

All the while, I am keeping in mind that this is real, so I don't want to go too much outside of what I can do.

Something I learn in the process is that the more times I play through a ballad, the further I can go. When I hear JJ or somebody with all of their brilliance, I also keep in mind that this probably isn't the very first time they have played that ballad! Most likely, they have spent a LOT of time in practice working out their ideas. Charlie Parker sure did! I believe a lot of what we hear on albums and think - wow - nice improve - is actually a lot of quasi-memorization - or at least total familiarization of a song that has gotten to be an old friend. My instructor once told me that after I have played through my repertoire enough times, it's hard NOT to get good at taking off on it. If it's a ballad I have played through enough times, sometimes I'll just let the melody go and try to come up with an alternate melody, based on the pulse of the original melody line and it's underlying chord structure.

Anyway, for most of us, it's a process. I think we can all agree upon that.

baileyman · by **baileyman** » 2021-05-21 8:13 a.m.

Ben mentioned the "asymmetric instrument", and that seems to be a lot of the difficulty.

Typical exercises assume equal ease around the horn, jazz pattern books, Arban, etc. And if you don't have equal ease, you're supposed to get it!

Unequal ease means that the performance envelop of the horn changes depending on the nature of what you intend to play. Some stuff just doesn't work. And maybe even if it can be made to work, it's awkward. Fontana said "if it looks awkward, it probably sounds awkward, too".

I'm astonished by how much some players have stretched their performance envelope. Gleaning a few ideas from them seems like a great way to increase the ease. But whatever one finds, there remains an attitude necessary, to mentally compose only those things that match the easy part of the envelope.

Here's one exercise that seems to help, based on "the nearest next note" idea. Take any three adjacent partials and any three adjacent positions. Then play all possible linear combinations. A favorite way to do this is going around in a circle through the note in the middle. Like this:

Partials 6 5 4, positions 1 2 3, then something like

Db (pickup on and gets the start off the beat)

Bb Db Eb Db

D Db C Db

F Db Ab Db

E Db A Db

Db Db Bb Db

C Db D Db

Ab Db F Db

A Db E Db

Bb Db (ending like this takes the rhythm off the beat)

Anyway, what it does is put lots of notes next to each other in ways that might not otherwise show up, and may reduce what seems like an inhibition at moving the slide and chops combination to something that is within the easy envelope, in this case where one is already on Db. The nearest next note you want may be one of those surrounding eight. You know, like the pattern book or your ear may say you need to hit F# in 5 like E F# A where the nearest next note could better be G# like E G# A with similar sense. Lots can be done within a one-position shift.

(Yes, I know this misses the combinations along the edge!)

PaulTdot · by **PaulTdot** » 2021-05-21 11:58 a.m.

It's very true:

A lot of musicians - and, often, trombonists - only try to learn to improvise later, and expect it to sound good, despite being a beginner. That's a blow to the ego, and stops a lot of people from feeling free enough to actually experiment and learn. It turns into an attitude, instead: "I'm not good at improvising. I'm good at reading music." It's an easy attitude to take on, which keeps you from confronting your own limitations, kind of like one of those asshats who approach a pretty girl, and, when rebuffed, walk away, saying, "I never liked you, anyway!"

Ideally, you should be learning to improvise at the same time as you're learning your instrument. You can build a strong connection by doing so, and develop improvisation and technique at the same time. I noticed a very big difference in music school between players who started learning to play jazz and improvise at a young age and players who went through a different school system, where they didn't start learning to improvise until the late teens. (The latter group had a solid foundation in technique, chops, etc, but really struggled to sound natural as improvisers. Many gave up before they "got good".)

Having said that, you don't HAVE to sound bad as an improviser when you're starting out. One of the advantages of improvisation is that you get to CHOOSE what material to play, and, if you wish, you can take a very conservative/safe approach, playing only things you know you can reach for, and that you know sound good.

* A great way to learn to improvise is to really learn a melody, inside and out (as ArbanRubank says, above). Play it from memory, sing it, listen to a million different recordings. Then start playing the melody, over and over, until bits of bore you. Then start changing it up, adding ornaments, leaving parts out, adding inflections, etc. Do this enough and you can be a really confident and great-sounding improvisor on that tune, without ever "sounding bad". You might not sound like some of your favourite players (who play more "vertically"), but you'll sound good and people (especially more mature musicians) will love hearing that your improvisation always hearkens back to the melody.

* It's also possible to learn to improvise with techniques that "always sound good". You just have to be diligent and methodical. I teach a lot of classical musicians improvisation, and if they seem to need this approach, that's what we do - I have a whole raft of techniques for teaching this way, and they work. I have a colleague who's done this in the school system, as well: I came in once to coach his 8th grade class, and was quite stunned! A group of kids, beginners on their instrument, just learning to play. And yet almost every single kid could play through a blues progression while nailing every chord change. Very cool! So, it can be done, and that's what I'll often do with older students or classical musicians who have a low tolerance for "learning by trial and error" or "sounding bad" and need systematic practice which sounds good from the start.

Pre59 · by **Pre59** » 2021-05-21 1:55 p.m.

To aid facility I think that we have to break with the idea of "positions" and "alternate positions" and treat them the same. The end goal being to know where all of the notes are, in all of the positions, all of the time. As starting points go it may seem unreasonable, but it's not uncommon among other instruments.

Savio · by **Savio** » 2021-05-21 6:33 p.m.

Do trombonist suck at improvising? I think not. My thoughts is when saxophone players try to play as many fast notes in shortest amount of time, they sucks... When trumpet players try to do the same but in the high screaming register they love...it sucks.

On the other hand, when J.J. Johnson, Urbie Green, Bill Watrous improvise, it's just right. It's not that fast or high, it's just the right notes in right time in a much more musical way.

I think most trombone players do it more interesting.

Leif

ArbanRubank · by **ArbanRubank** » 2021-05-22 9:57 a.m.

Some very insightful and thought-provoking comments! Definitely worth re-reading for inspiration.

I'm moving forward in my quest. I am now finding places in ballads that seem to cry out for a bit of ad-lib double-tonguing, using PaulTdot's "always sound good" approach. As I gain confidence and ability, my "performance envelope" that baileyman mentioned increases. So my goal is to "always sound good" at an increasingly higher "performance envelope".

Re-listening to JJ, one thing really pops out. It's his precise articulation. That guy hardly ever missed a note! He must of had one heck of a sense of pitch in his head. Kai, as well.

Doug_Elliott · by **Doug_Elliott** » 2021-05-22 10:18 a.m.

"Re-listening to JJ, one thing really pops out. It's his precise articulation."

And yet, so many players take a sloppy approach to playing jazz, somehow thinking that's part of the style.

Kinda like big band players who constantly play behind and justify it by calling it "laying back."

Nope. Listen again, more carefully this time.

Savio · by **Savio** » 2021-05-22 12:38 p.m.

[quote="Doug Elliott"]"Re-listening to JJ, one thing really pops out. It's his precise articulation."

And yet, so many players take a sloppy approach to playing jazz, somehow thinking that's part of the style.

Kinda like big band players who constantly play behind and justify it by calling it "laying back."

Nope. Listen again, more carefully this time.[/quote]

I think I’m a sinner there. I try to learn from George Roberts. It’s nearly scary how accurate his timing is. Also intonation. And it sounds so easy when listening him. Anyway it’s a goal to try stretch towards.

Leif

ArbanRubank · by **ArbanRubank** » 2021-05-23 11:55 a.m.

Me too. Leif!

Unfortunately, since the kind of instrumental music we like has died, there really aren't many current artists to look to for inspiration. So what I try to do is to listen to the older trombone masters - like GR - as well as accomplished performers on other instruments and vocalists as well and try to use them as inspiration for the music of MY time.

PaulTdot · by **PaulTdot** » 2021-05-25 12:17 p.m.

Is that so? Pandemic notwithstanding, I feel like I see so many exceptional young brass players and trombonists all around - far more than I remember when I was in school. But perhaps that's not the case where you are!

SuperslickRick · by **SuperslickRick** » 2021-05-25 4:28 p.m.

I more or less completely agree with OP. Sax players got me interested in improvising, and from a language standpoint, I’m way more influenced by trumpet and sax players in the way I play. My favorite trombone players also come from that sound as well, like Hal Crook, Elliot Mason, Corey Wilcox, Isaac Smith etc. They all sound like improvisers playing the trombone, not trombone players improvising, ya know what I mean?

That being said, don’t get me wrong, I obviously l love the greats and their playing and the tradition of the instrument; Curtis Fuller on Blue Train made me realize the role trombone was capable of filling, but at the same time it was Coltrane and Mark Turner and Woody Shaw and Miles that really really blew my mind and made me want to learn how to improvise.

In my experience, there are parts of the trombone community that can be pretty close-minded when it comes to more contemporary aspects of improvisation and tend to write off anything post-1968 or faster than an 1/8th note as “unmusical.” I love the tradition too, obviously, and it’s important to learn how to sound like JJ, Slide, etc, but it’s wrong to look down on those that don’t try to emulate that. There are so many trombone players that are pushing the instrument forward and can definitely hang with any sax/trumpet/piano player, but at the same time its usually these self-proclaimed “traditionalists” I hear complain about not getting called ¯\_(ツ)_/¯

ArbanRubank · by **ArbanRubank** » 2021-05-25 9:30 p.m.

[quote="PaulTdot"]Is that so? Pandemic notwithstanding, I feel like I see so many exceptional young brass players and trombonists all around - far more than I remember when I was in school. But perhaps that's not the case where you are![/quote]

Who are they and where can I buy their solo albums?

SuperslickRick · by **SuperslickRick** » 2021-05-26 11:45 a.m.

[quote="ArbanRubank"]<QUOTE author="PaulTdot" post_id="149185" time="1621959427" user_id="4457">
Is that so? Pandemic notwithstanding, I feel like I see so many exceptional young brass players and trombonists all around - far more than I remember when I was in school. But perhaps that's not the case where you are![/quote]

Who are they and where can I buy their solo albums?
</QUOTE>

Kalia Vandever - In Bloom

Brandon Lin - Affection / Promise

Jimmy O’Connell - Arrhythmia

Bach5G · by **Bach5G** » 2021-05-26 1:48 p.m.

Jimmy O’Connell

<YOUTUBE id="pcaYa6uESZk">https://youtu.be/pcaYa6uESZk</YOUTUBE>

ArbanRubank · by **ArbanRubank** » 2021-05-26 4:17 p.m.

Thanks guys. Nice to know there are some up & coming promising trombone artists - as shown on YouTube, etc. However, it seems they are not on vinyl - yet. If you are not on vinyl, you haven't arrived, IMHO. Heck, even Adelle - who would sing at a cat fight - is on vinyl! I wish Max Seigel would put his work on vinyl. He's terrific. I like vinyl, in case you are wondering.

Thanks again!

PaulTdot · by **PaulTdot** » 2021-05-27 12:41 p.m.

It depends what you mean by "young" - the real youngsters aren't widely recorded yet, but are (or were) doing great work in local clubs or in school.

But here are some names you could take a look at, in the 16 to 35-40 range (I tried to find a real variety of clips in different styles, and short, for modern attention spans ;) ) - all distinctive and highly competent improvisors. Perhaps this list will inspire someone to do some more practicing! (I know it does, for me.)

Rita Payes - e.g. <YOUTUBE id="AySBPCkGyyY">https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=AySBPCkGyyY</YOUTUBE>

Robert Edwards - e.g. <YOUTUBE id="Ekrpj3Zfjdc">https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Ekrpj3Zfjdc</YOUTUBE>

Ido Meshulam - e.g. <YOUTUBE id="p1Nok0NbOP0">https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=p1Nok0NbOP0</YOUTUBE>

Shannon Barnett - e.g. <FACEBOOK id="536264653876036" type="v">https://www.facebook.com/watch/?v=536264653876036</FACEBOOK>

Jon Hatamiya - e.g. <YOUTUBE id="8N8aCjSDTl8">https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8N8aCjSDTl8,</YOUTUBE> <YOUTUBE id="K8IbDr3JExE">https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=K8IbDr3JExE</YOUTUBE> - has some good recent recordings out

Coleman Hughes - e.g. <DAILYMOTION id="x2nltle">https://www.dailymotion.com/video/x2nltle</DAILYMOTION> (a high school audition video! he's more active as a philosophical/political commentator now, but still does some playing)

Corey Wilcox - e.g. <YOUTUBE id="F_duB1gu2pg">https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=F_duB1gu2pg</YOUTUBE>

Emily Asher - <LINK_TEXT text="https://jazzlives.wordpress.com/2020/10 ... -a-window/">https://jazzlives.wordpress.com/2020/10/08/she-takes-us-along-on-her-journeys-emily-ashers-garden-party-if-i-were-a-window/</LINK_TEXT>

Javier Nero - <YOUTUBE id="dyG3rcGa1rE">https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=dyG3rcGa1rE</YOUTUBE>

Michael Dease - <YOUTUBE id="ApkhqfgLeUc">https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ApkhqfgLeUc</YOUTUBE> (he was 25ish when he recorded this)

Trombone Shorty - <YOUTUBE id="FSbP6ZhfPs0">https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=FSbP6ZhfPs0</YOUTUBE>

Aubrey Logan - <YOUTUBE id="Okpxg4J4vtk">https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Okpxg4J4vtk</YOUTUBE>

Natalie Cressman - <YOUTUBE id="c2eYxeJbdwA">https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=c2eYxeJbdwA</YOUTUBE>

Nick Finzer - <LINK_TEXT text="https://downbeat.com/news/detail/outsid ... directions">https://downbeat.com/news/detail/outside-in-music-offers-support-in-all-directions</LINK_TEXT>

Samuel Blaser - <YOUTUBE id="whXTi3C3XCQ">https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=whXTi3C3XCQ</YOUTUBE>

Samuel Blaser is quite remarkable, in that he might be the only jazz trombonist in the world right now (or maybe ever?) who makes a living just playing as a soloist, generally fronting trios and quartets.

Slightly older players, but still early in their careers, with some killer albums released as long as 10-15 years ago (when they were in their 20's), all really worth checking out:

Ryan Keberle

Jacob Garchik

Marshall Gilkes

Carol Jarvis

Andy Hunter (some nice short clips: <YOUTUBE id="6uNP1p8B5qM">https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6uNP1p8B5qM,</YOUTUBE> <YOUTUBE id="4nNQy8nBxkM">https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4nNQy8nBxkM)</YOUTUBE>

Elliot Mason

And this is just off the top of my head! There are lots of great players in Europe, too, like Felix Fromm or Nils Wogram.

ArbanRubank · by **ArbanRubank** » 2021-05-27 8:21 p.m.

Asked for and received! Somebody has a little library of YouTube vids! I guess YouTube is the new vinyl for most (sigh). I'm still buying vinyl when I can find still-sealed or NM of various trombone artists at a decent price. Love it when I read an eBay listing as selling dad's vinyl collection that has been in storage for many, many years. Sorry for their loss, though.

I have your links copied and pasted into my FB as a private post so only I can see it and where I can easily access them for viewing.

I've started to take off on this improv thing. I doubt I'll ever be able to play as complicated as some truly talented and practiced guys, but I'm not sucking much any more, at least. It appears to be a cumulative thing. IOW's the more I learn, the more I hear and the more I hear, the more I learn.

I suppose this thread will die again as bands start back up and guys get re-contented to perform as section players. We'll then probably see a lot more equipment threads. But maybe some of the guys who gave this improv thing a try will see the music differently.

Thanks for the links!

PaulTdot · by **PaulTdot** » 2021-05-27 11:27 p.m.

[quote="ArbanRubank"]It appears to be a cumulative thing. IOW's the more I learn, the more I hear and the more I hear, the more I learn.[/quote]

That's exactly right! All these skills start building on each other pretty quickly, once you put in the work.

I used YouTube links because they're quick and easy to share - but I tried to pick players who had a recent recording out as a leader, so you could support them by purchasing their actual albums.

I don't have a library of these - this was just off the top of my head. A lot of these people are colleagues or schoolmates or mine, or just people I've heard of through the grapevine. Enjoy!

ArbanRubank · by **ArbanRubank** » 2021-05-28 10:15 a.m.

Okay, that was some pretty good listening, all-in-all. I'm not a huge fan of extremely complicated playing. I think it gets a bit boring quickly. I like to hear it more in spurts of passion, rather than a continuous stream of rapid notes for their own sake that never seem to end. And I find trombone-players in general tend to be a bit mono-dynamic, unless they are playing a Rochut or something where the dynamics are marked in and intended to be followed.

I also noted the ones who did a studio recording and dubbed it in over their video. It sounded nice, but gave me the impression of a foreign film with dubbed-in voices that never really seem to fit the actual context of the scene fully.

That said, they were all better players than me and I admired them, so who am I to nit-pick and criticize!

You must be well-connected.

PaulTdot · by **PaulTdot** » 2021-05-28 11:01 a.m.

I'm glad you got something out of it! And I've been quite fortunate to work with, go to school with, or play with many of these people, mostly while I lived in NYC. Very inspiring young cats!

I suspect my "sample" here was quite biased towards intense and technical playing. First of all, looking for younger players who are making a splash is going to get you more of the highly technical, ambitious kind of player who is trying to "prove themselves" - the exuberance of youth and all that, you know. (The ones who both sing and play don't feel the same pressure to perform in this sense, so they're an exception.) Second, finding a good 2min clip on YouTube is going to show almost exclusively technically impressive passages. I didn't select these carefully, but sort of grabbed the first or second thing which popped up, since the request was for names who had albums out on the market, not for the best - or my favourite - short clips. I also looked for clips which displayed improvisational virtuosity, since that was the topic (do trombonists, in fact, "suck at improvising"?).

Those factors really contribute to this being a very specific kind of type of playing. If you buy the albums of many/most of these players, you'll find plenty of nuance, restraint, melodicism, and dynamic range, in a way you won't get from a quick 2min YouTube video.

On another note, I wonder what your own performance experience is: because there is a reason you hear more dynamic range in a Rochut etude than in an improvised solo with a salsa band (for instance). (Just try to play quietly over five horn players playing backgrounds, a drummer and a percussionist banging away... that context limits you dramatically. Playing a solo etude - improvised or not - is a *completely* different ball game.) Many of these players have an *enormous* dynamic range, and use it extremely well - but you have to play to the context you're in.

When I think of many of these players... their control of dynamics, nuance, and tonal colour is phenomenal. I find that - and I'm not necessarily talking to you, but anyone reading :) - people who haven't done a lot of professional playing in a variety of contexts really underestimate the challenges involved, and the skill of the people doing it. What you hear on a recording or in concert is often very severely limited by acoustic limitations, musical stylistic concerns, technical issues, and who knows how many other factors.

Here are some quick samples, just for illustration's sake:

Andy Hunter always sounds lovely when fronting a band (and has the creative control to get the sound he wants, as he does here) -

<YOUTUBE id="OOnC7AnDrOQ">https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=OOnC7AnDrOQ</YOUTUBE>

<YOUTUBE id="_Wbu2B_xtQA">https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_Wbu2B_xtQA</YOUTUBE>

<YOUTUBE id="btnWikE6t8w">https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=btnWikE6t8w</YOUTUBE>

<YOUTUBE id="-az93VxJE2U">https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-az93VxJE2U</YOUTUBE>

<YOUTUBE id="T8w_KX9QJ08">https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=T8w_KX9QJ08</YOUTUBE>

Samuel Blaser playing a solo concert (these are live recordings) -

<YOUTUBE id="zRZu8bFCJeE" list="OLAK5uy_nKo2Hcye2u_7pC5zNv6-n0Pv05Qzmcwrw"><LINK_TEXT text="https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=zRZu8bF ... rw&index=4">https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=zRZu8bFCJeE&list=OLAK5uy_nKo2Hcye2u_7pC5zNv6-n0Pv05Qzmcwrw&index=4</LINK_TEXT></YOUTUBE>

<YOUTUBE id="4HZFnzPcFTE" list="OLAK5uy_nKo2Hcye2u_7pC5zNv6-n0Pv05Qzmcwrw"><LINK_TEXT text="https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4HZFnzP ... rw&index=3">https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4HZFnzPcFTE&list=OLAK5uy_nKo2Hcye2u_7pC5zNv6-n0Pv05Qzmcwrw&index=3</LINK_TEXT></YOUTUBE>

It's weird how much music is available on YouTube for free these days... I really hope that, if you have the means, you can also support these artists by buying their albums. It's getting harder and harder to survive as a trombonist these days, so every little bit counts.

ArbanRubank · by **ArbanRubank** » 2021-05-28 11:44 a.m.

Copy that. Makes perfect sense to "splash play" when the competition is keen and the face time on the horn is short. And I know what it's like to try to play over a noisy group - not fun.

The more technical performances actually did inspire me to jack up the tempo on the four Arban's Fantasies I played through this morning. I see those exercises as more of a means to an end rather than as a performance in and of themselves. If I can go lickety-split through one of them, then I surely ought to be able to put a nice multiple-tongue improv effort into a ballad in select places.

I love to hear a trombone player play as though it were the most beautiful musical instrument in the world because it is! So a nice range of dynamics - in keeping with the emotional content of the ballad - as well as some excitement generated by well-put technique makes for a memorable performance - if the tone quality is also memorable.

For me, it all comes down to tone quality. If it is superb, then not much else really is needed. And I firmly believe would-be improv artists can benefit from keeping it simple, beautiful and smooth. Get out of the way and let the horn do the talking.

Thanks again for the links. That will be tonight's listening. I'll also look for albums to buy.

PaulTdot · by **PaulTdot** » 2021-05-28 1:42 p.m.

[quote="ArbanRubank"]I love to hear a trombone player play as though it were the most beautiful musical instrument in the world because it is![/quote]

Well put! Ain't that the truth? :P

For me, it all comes down to tone quality. If it is superb, then not much else really is needed. And I firmly believe would-be improv artists can benefit from keeping it simple, beautiful and smooth. Get out of the way and let the horn do the talking.

This is both true and false, I think. It's certainly true that sound and tone quality are either the first or second most important thing. So important! It's the sound that we are drawn to and react to - great players are recognizable within one note or three.

On the other hand, many musical contexts just don't call for "simple, beautiful and smooth". It's not appropriate, it's not what's needed or wanted. I've heard some of the best-sounding trombone players transform dramatically when it's necessary - whether it's brash, sloppy, out of tune, aggressive, or otherwise - and that's as much a sign of high artistry as anything else. Whether it's what the music asks for, or because your employer expects a particular thing.

I actually had a challenge of this sort a few years back. I was hired for a recording session by a local bandleader. No rehearsal, just one take. The music is intended as angry, protesting what's happening in the world. The tune is fast and rather "messy" - as you'll hear. Suddenly they want a trombone solo. Go! What would you do?

Here's what I did (my solo spot is roughly 1:50 to 2:50):

<BANDCAMP track_id="1045230152">https://artofbreath.bandcamp.com/track/wtf</BANDCAMP>

The tempo and time feel changes were quite uncomfortable, and I didn't handle them very well. And I was probably still playing too "pretty" for the track. But I tried to put something there which suited the vibe they were going for. It would have been nice to get another shot at it, but time is limited in the studio and no one wants to do another take just for the trombone player...

FOSSIL · by **FOSSIL** » 2021-05-28 1:57 p.m.

That sounded pretty good to me Paul...classy playing.<EMOJI seq="1f44d" tseq="1f44d">👍</EMOJI><EMOJI seq="1f44d" tseq="1f44d">👍</EMOJI><EMOJI seq="1f44d" tseq="1f44d">👍</EMOJI>

Chris

PaulTdot · by **PaulTdot** » 2021-05-28 2:03 p.m.

Thank you! Not how I would ever play, normally. I threw it here precisely because it was a good example of being forced to go against my own tastes and instincts, in many ways. That's its own kind of challenge, musically and technically.

ArbanRubank · by **ArbanRubank** » 2021-05-28 3:28 p.m.

I get your point, but you have a beautiful sound and no matter how "angry" you tried to sound, your beautiful tone still came through.

Sure, there are exceptions where "noise" is required. But I stand my ground as far as most ballads or pop tunes are concerned. And even if the balladeer chooses to play some emotional parts in a sassy voice, with a lot of spit, vinegar and razamataz, I still want to hear a head-turning and memorable sound coming through it all. It's like a baseline standard. Those who play above that line are truly memorable. Those who don't are forgettable.

PaulTdot · by **PaulTdot** » 2021-05-28 3:59 p.m.

Thank you. Kind words, and that's appreciated! I see it rather as a failure on my part - I'd like to get better at changing the tonal quality to match the circumstances. I shouldn't sound "pretty" on a tune like this.

Here's the issue:

It's very difficult to separate a "baseline standard" from personal taste. You thought my "beautiful tone came through". Someone else might have said, "he's lacking bite; don't hire him again". Who's right?

Here's a great musical example of that (it might be easier to judge, in a way, with singers, plus it's a fabulous and intriguing performance):

<YOUTUBE id="GaB9F3R9cIY">https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=GaB9F3R9cIY</YOUTUBE>

It's really cool to feel how you react, as a listener, when they switch over. For many people, the reaction is something like, "Ah! Now THAT's real singing!" And then the other performer takes over, and you think, "Oh, no, wait! THAT's real singing!" And then it happens again...

They certainly both pass your "truly memorable" baseline, don't they? :) So, in that sense, you are absolutely and fabulously right. And yet, neither would "cut it" in the other one's musical world - neither has the right sound or approach. If JB showed up at Pavarotti's gig, he'd pretty quickly get fired, and vice-versa. I think that's worth noting.

When it comes to tonal quality, we all have our own preferences and standards, but it's worthwhile to try to broaden that envelope, and to learn and understand why, in other cultures or styles, different aspects are valued. For instance, consider how octaves are tuned "wide" in Balinese music (out of tune, by our standards). Or how a throat singer's vocal "tone" would be judged by a classical singer, and vice-versa.

This may seem like a departure from the topic of this thread, but I actually think it's absolutely critical. The ability to listen to music - and improvisers - in different styles objectively, and to try to understand *why* certain aspects of their playing are valued, is a key component in learning to be a better improviser. This goes for tone quality - which we've been discussing - but also for time feel, articulation, rhythmic choices (e.g. are you playing with the clave?), pitch (e.g. playing a blues perfectly in tune actually sounds "wrong" to someone steeped in that tradition), density, harmony, and phrase lengths.

When someone is a highly respected improvisor in their field, it's much better - as a musician and as a student - to try to learn *why* and to develop a taste for it, than to see it as a flaw of some kind. I can't count the number of times I thought I heard a great player making some kind of "mistake" or having some kind of "defect" in their playing, only to learn later that it was a very carefully crafted effect. (For example, on many recordings Frank Rosolino kind of "chips" high notes. It's understandable - he's way up in the upper atmosphere, playing very technical passages! Well, eventually I got my hands on a recording of a master class with Frank, and he demonstrates how he practices that effect, until he can do it repeatedly and consistently, "chipping" the note exactly the same way each time.)

That kind of listening and investigation (especially talking to older musicians in that field) is really eye-opening, and will change your approach as an improviser. You'll learn faster, learn "deeper", and sound more authentic, as well as learning to appreciate more (and more different!) styles of music.

That can only make your life - and your personal character - richer. It's one of the ways music teaches us to become better human beings.

Anyhow, thank you for the kind words! At least it prompted me to write a little on the topic; maybe it will be helpful for someone somewhere someday. If anyone's reading this as a trombonist looking to be a better improviser, I'd consider it a valuable perspective, anyway - it was, and continues to be, for me. Happy practicing!

ArbanRubank · by **ArbanRubank** » 2021-05-28 8:13 p.m.

:good: :good: :good: :good:

Solid gold. Every word. Great perspective.

It really is something to ponder when listening: is someone's sound appropriate and memorable within the context of what they are doing. Does it have "it" for the setting. Maybe that's partly why some guys think they suck at improv; they are attempting a sound that either doesn't work within the setting or they aren't capable of producing one that does. I've been there. I once attempted a solo pitched WAY too low for me to be heard over a noisy group. Then there's that right notes thing...

PaulTdot · by **PaulTdot** » 2021-05-28 11:24 p.m.

Indeed! As trombonists, especially, we are often forced to avoid certain registers to be heard, and that can really limit musical expression. Mike Dease once showed me how he actually practices this: gives himself a "limit" (a note he can't play below) and works on various improvisation exercises. I find this especially important in big band settings.

Trombo · by **Trombo** » 2021-06-05 11:03 a.m.

Why Do Trombonists Suck At Improvising?

Because they play the slide trombone.

I've always wondered why jazz trombonists ignore the valve trombone. It is much better suited to modern jazz than a slide trombone (IMHO).

Raul de Souza proved it.

<YOUTUBE id="CV5J4sEl1rA">https://youtu.be/CV5J4sEl1rA</YOUTUBE>

Macbone1 · by **Macbone1** » 2021-06-21 10:27 a.m.

So much good info and many great ideas here. I'd also like to add that the inherent culture of the trb as a "back row" instrument (or tucked tightly between saxes and trumpets in big bands) does not inspire the leadership mindset needed on the horn to take the spotlight and solo. Of course each individual's experience and attitude may vary, and that's good. But who gets accused of dragging tempos/not matching articulations and phrasing most often? Trombones! That does not indicate a leadership attitude on the horn. Take charge of yourself, be a leader (even if it's just in your mind), listen a lot, take solos, get experience.

Doug_Elliott · by **Doug_Elliott** » 2021-06-21 2:33 p.m.

[quote="Macbone1"]...who gets accused of dragging tempos/not matching articulations and phrasing most often? Trombones![/quote]
Because it's often the truth.

Macbone1 · by **Macbone1** » 2021-06-21 3:51 p.m.

No argument here

PaulTdot · by **PaulTdot** » 2021-06-21 5:03 p.m.

I'll make a strange comment on this, because it's more relevant to this topic than some people might think:

I think that a lot of trumpet players and saxophone players end up in big bands as part of their attempt to become great players and advanced improvisers. They hone their technique, and have no difficulty playing difficult or technical passages.

I wonder if those trombone sections might sound better if the trombone players approach improvisation with a similar kind of dedication?

I don't know, but it's interesting to consider. (To be fair, the reverse exists as well, and, as someone who prides himself on being an excellent "section player", I have nothing but respect for great section players who make that their specialty.)

Bach5G · 2021-09-27 4:25 p.m.

Shawn Bell has posted a new video on YouTube. It is called “How to Improve Every Solo You Take”.

I think Mr. Bell does an excellent job of demystifying trombone improvisation and providing useful information. Worth a look I think.

Of course, as always, YMMV.

<YOUTUBE id="qXdATJ8W7tI">https://youtu.be/qXdATJ8W7tI</YOUTUBE>

michaelpilley · by **michaelpilley** » 2021-09-28 4:39 a.m.

Hot take: Because trombonists are lazy.

Maybe more of a personalised observation than a generalised one. But that's why I suck(ed) at improvising. I didn't want to put the work in, and the pub sounded much more appealing.

jbeatenbough · by **jbeatenbough** » 2021-10-08 3:14 p.m.

Nice example of young players learning from older...

If I only had a brain TROMBONES DE LA SAJB ( dir Joan Chamorro) feat CARLOS MARTIN

<YOUTUBE id="JelMOmQq83Q">https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=JelMOmQq83Q</YOUTUBE>

torobone · by **torobone** » 2021-10-19 11:56 a.m.

[quote="PaulTdot"]I'll make a strange comment on this, because it's more relevant to this topic than some people might think:

I think that a lot of trumpet players and saxophone players end up in big bands as part of their attempt to become great players and advanced improvisers. They hone their technique, and have no difficulty playing difficult or technical passages.

I wonder if those trombone sections might sound better if the trombone players approach improvisation with a similar kind of dedication?

I don't know, but it's interesting to consider. (To be fair, the reverse exists as well, and, as someone who prides himself on being an excellent "section player", I have nothing but respect for great section players who make that their specialty.)[/quote]
-----------------------------

On the way to a rehearsal with a friend:

Me: You know, I should spend more time on improvisation. But sometimes being in a section, just hearing a great chord is really satisfying.

My lead trumpet friend: You're a trombone player!

------------------------------

Sax players have one central venue for their talent, and that is jazz. There are few orchestral opportunities for sax players, or concert band opportunities that pay. So improvisation is it. I do not enjoy all of the improvisations I hear, but I hope they are working to improve.

Trumpet players are similar to trombonists. They have a wider range of music to play, and the same issues of brass playing come into play. Some trumpeters play flugel and cornet as well, so they are also doubling. Some trumpeters specialize in big bands (like 4 bands per week) while others play in orchestras or other bands. One trumpeter here plays lead in 4 big bands; he doesn't improvise, but he absolutely nails the high notes every time. The band is better when he plays lead.

Paul T. and I have occasionally played together over the past 7 years or so, and I know that Paul is the real deal when it comes to improvisation. Paul is not lazy, and most trombonists aren't either. Paul listens to more jazz than anyone I know, and his solos consistently demonstrate that. I'm very happy to be a section player when Paul is around. I can dream to do that, perhaps impossibly.

It's a matter of priorities when it comes to my limited practice time. I imagine, even today, that I'll put on a recording of jazz changes and play along. But instead, I will work on sound, range, some repertoire including some written-out big band solos and other tricky bits, and clef exercises. Every week, if not every day, I play my medium-bore tenor, alto and bass. The alto is sort of a novelty, but I'm learning things about my playing and it is time well spent.

As a dedicated amateur, I play in big bands, concert bands, and ensembles regularly. I am regularly asked to sub in orchestras as well. My journey is my own, as is yours. I believe that anybody willing to discuss topics is not lazy. It is a matter of using time effectively and making improvisation a priority.

I will improvise tomorrow; today, I'm trying to memorize Herbert Clarke's "Cousins", so my trumpet friend and I can perform in front of the band in the post-Covid era. I also hope to watch and listen to Paul T. sometime soon.

PaulTdot · by **PaulTdot** » 2021-10-19 3:06 p.m.

Thank you, Martin!

Those are very kind words, and quite true. I hope we get a chance to play together again soon!

Without disagreeing with you in any way, I'd like to add this:

It's certainly possible to work on improvisation or improvisation-related concepts while still improving sound, intonation, range, and other fundamentals. It's just a question of structuring practicing and exercises appropriately. That can take some thought or some practice, but with some experimentation or guidance from someone who's given it that kind of thought, it's really doable.

I'd encourage everyone reading not to think of those as separate in any way. An improvised phrase should be carefully interpreted and executed, just as much as a Rochut etude or symphonic excerpt or beautiful melody.

baileyman · by **baileyman** » 2021-10-20 7:42 a.m.

[quote="PaulTdot"]...

It's certainly possible to work on improvisation or improvisation-related concepts while still improving sound, intonation, range, and other fundamentals. It's just a question of structuring practicing and exercises appropriately. That can take some thought or some practice, but with some experimentation or guidance from someone who's given it that kind of thought, it's really doable.

I'd encourage everyone reading not to think of those as separate in any way. An improvised phrase should be carefully interpreted and executed, just as much as a Rochut etude or symphonic excerpt or beautiful melody.[/quote]

This would be the way to go, and should be worth its own topic. I try this myself, but lacking imagination, I've only been able to migrate a portion of my fundamental work to improvisation.

BGuttman · by **BGuttman** » 2021-10-20 9:04 a.m.

[quote="baileyman"]<QUOTE author="PaulTdot" post_id="160344" time="1634670385" user_id="4457">
...

It's certainly possible to work on improvisation or improvisation-related concepts while still improving sound, intonation, range, and other fundamentals. It's just a question of structuring practicing and exercises appropriately. That can take some thought or some practice, but with some experimentation or guidance from someone who's given it that kind of thought, it's really doable.

I'd encourage everyone reading not to think of those as separate in any way. An improvised phrase should be carefully interpreted and executed, just as much as a Rochut etude or symphonic excerpt or beautiful melody.[/quote]

This would be the way to go, and should be worth its own topic. I try this myself, but lacking imagination, I've only been able to migrate a portion of my fundamental work to improvisation.
</QUOTE>

The key is to let yourself go and allow yourself to fail. Obviously you don't want to fail "in public", so try to imagine yourself playing a solo against any music on the radio -- yes, even classical music. Sing your melody softly against the rest of the ensemble. Listen for notes that sound good and notes that sound bad. You could even start by just humming drone tones.

Big problem for us nerds (yes, I am one, too) is that we have an innate need to be perfect the first time. I wish it could happen, but it really doesn't. I keep trying to learn from my mistakes (and also from the guy next to me ;) ).

mgladdish · 2021-10-20 10:11 a.m.

My take on it is that the overwhelming majority of trombonists simply haven't spent enough time or effort on it compared to their non-trombone playing peers. Have you listened to saxophonists warming up? Going through keys, modes, scales, arpeggios, II-V-I patterns, etc., etc. Nobody even attempts that stuff on a trombone at the best of times as far as I can hear.

And when your inspirations are trombonists of the past, they were even further behind their peers. So if the bar of what's desirable/possible/achievable is set by trombonists past, then we're already starting from further behind.

Yes, of course, there's the issue of technical mastery of the instrument to get around the thing, but even great players struggle to make their way around complex changes, or their composure falls to pieces in an attempt to keep up and they end up sounding like the proverbial exploding elephant.

We're living in an era where more trombonists have greater technical faculty and musical education than ever before, and yet when other trombonists are asked about who they listen to, it's as if nobody recorded anything after about 1965. We're too insular, too backward-looking and, to be frank, irrelevant. The times when trombone was a first-class frontline instrument have been and gone. And, to be even more frank, I think it's our own fault for not keeping up.

Never mind not having a Bird, Coltrane, Ornette Coleman, Griffin, Brecker, or Potter to look up to, we don't even have a genuine A-lister that eschews "flashy" technique like Chet Baker, Getz or, to a lesser extent, even Jan Garbarek. The latter is even more perplexing to me - the trombone should lend itself perfectly to exactly the sort of music Garberek made an entire career out of, yet absolutely nobody is doing it.

So we could have gone down one road to keep up with the technical wizardry and excitement of our saxophonist peers, or the other and embraced our relative cumbersomeness and led the nordic/ECM scene. Instead I think we've spent all this time transcribing JJ solos and let it all go past us.

Ooof!

afugate · by **afugate** » 2021-10-20 10:11 a.m.

[quote="BGuttman"]<QUOTE author="baileyman" post_id="160394" time="1634730144" user_id="160">

This would be the way to go, and should be worth its own topic. I try this myself, but lacking imagination, I've only been able to migrate a portion of my fundamental work to improvisation.[/quote]

The key is to let yourself go and allow yourself to fail. Obviously you don't want to fail "in public", so try to imagine yourself playing a solo against any music on the radio -- yes, even classical music. Sing your melody softly against the rest of the ensemble. Listen for notes that sound good and notes that sound bad. You could even start by just humming drone tones.
</QUOTE>

Notes are important, but notes are a small part of the improvisation challenge. IMO, rhythm and patterns are far more important in what we say on the horn in a solo, and yet the focus always seems to be on the notes to play. Syncopation, repetition, anticipation, delay, space... are also essential to making a solo work.

Perspective from a guy who still struggles to do any of these things well... :roll:

--Andy in OKC

torobone · by **torobone** » 2021-10-20 11:10 a.m.

Well now, I have indeed stepped in it.

With so many venues shut down, I joined a big band on lead. I was told the 2nd bone was the jazz chair, and I'm better than most at playing high.

So why am I seeing all these changes? I can only pass them off a couple of times per night, and the leader has selected pieces like 2 Bone BBQ and Raw Bones where I'm trading 4 bars with the 2nd. The leader is great at moving people out of their comfort zones, in a good way.

Time to switch my practice priorities. Necessity is a mother.

Bach5G · 2021-10-20 1:21 p.m.

MGladdish wrote: “… the trombone should lend itself perfectly to exactly the sort of music Garberek made an entire career out of …”

Julian Priester, Love Love, on ECM.

BGuttman · by **BGuttman** » 2021-10-20 2:34 p.m.

[quote="torobone"]Well now, I have indeed stepped in it.

With so many venues shut down, I joined a big band on lead. I was told the 2nd bone was the jazz chair, and I'm better than most at playing high.

So why am I seeing all these changes? I can only pass them off a couple of times per night, and the leader has selected pieces like 2 Bone BBQ and Raw Bones where I'm trading 4 bars with the 2nd. The leader is great at moving people out of their comfort zones, in a good way.

Time to switch my practice priorities. Necessity is a mother.[/quote]

We used to play a lot of charts with 3 bone solos (1st, 2ne, and 3rd). One of my favorites was "How High the Moon". One band I was in I was playing 4th but the 3rd player couldn't improvise so I played his solo.

PaulTdot · by **PaulTdot** » 2021-10-21 9:23 p.m.

[quote="torobone"]Well now, I have indeed stepped in it.[/quote]

Good for you, Martin!

Call me sometime if you want some assistance. ;)

SackbutRoyale · by **SackbutRoyale** » 2021-10-28 6:14 a.m.

When I was in high school, my band director was a jazz saxophonist that handed out solos to whomever wanted it. But he was a stickler for theory also, so he spent a lot of time with ALL of us on how to learn improvisation. That being said, it was, Basin Street Blues, and a LOT of Al Jarreau tunes that presented the most trombone solos! Then, I get to college and our first concert was at the Montreaux/Detroit Jazz Festival, and we did a trombone heavy arrangement of Donna Lee and we ALL soloed!! I grew up listening to Urbie Green, J J Johnson, and Bill Watrous, so I based my improvisations on an amalgam of the three. That being said, after a stint in the military, where I suffered an injury to my face and jaw, changed my embouchure and led to a 12 year layoff of playing, and I'm back to square on on learning how to improv again!

Pre59 · by **Pre59** » 2021-10-28 9:21 a.m.

I think that not enough trombonists spend time playing by ear, learning melodies, any melodies, in multiple keys, thereby shortening the distance between the thought and the output.

As a kid I was taught that the tbn was a melodic instrument, and there was a relatively large amount of it on radio and tv at the time. There was also money in being able to carry a tune, and being able to use your wits as well..

DominicaSanchez · by **DominicaSanchez** » 2021-11-15 1:10 a.m.

[quote="hyperbolica"]Before you take offense, I obviously don't mean ALL trombonists, but if you take 10 trombonists, 10 trumpet players, and 10 sax players, you'll have more guys that can wail on the sax or the trumpet than on the trombone. I've heard several trombonists play and then I say "I hope I don't sound like that". And often after a sax solo, its more like "whoa, I wish I sounded like that".

Is this a real thing or just a weird perception only in my head?

And one more thing. Is it really cool to end every other phrase with a descending tritone, or do you have to be Charlie Parker to pull that off?

And one more more thing. Are great improvisers really mental chord giants, or do they just memorize solos, or do they just piece together a bunch of cool licks in every key imaginable? I mean you can't just rip off a bunch of 1/16th note scales in non-enharmonic chords while following 8 or 12 bar phrases off the top of your head, on command, realistically, can you?[/quote]
I think it is only because of all because of lack of time. Our teachers at school say it is harder to master and develop trombone. There is no technical possibilities to reduce the time of education on trombone

comebackplayer · by **comebackplayer** » 2021-11-15 5:09 a.m.

I'm a trumpet player learning trombone, and I also had thought, "maybe I could learn to improv..." and then realized how hard it is. There are some jazz bars near me and I've heard gifted trumpet players at them. I later have seen many people like me (comeback player, not naturally gifted, not hours a day to practice) run full speed into the wall on improv and give up. In my opinion it is *much* harder than it looks.

On trumpet, it seems like to improv well, ideally you have:

-learned dozens of classics, hopefully learned via transcription

-can transpose them into almost any key

-have learned minor scales, blues scales, chords, etc. (which are not something most of us get in high school)

-practiced a lot, ideally with live musicians but also maybe also over canned music, etc.

Beyond this you should be musically gifted:

-excellent intonation

-able to play on the offbeat

-able to swing

-able to (on trumpet) slur and articulate creatively

-able to key up with key changes and count out bars while you solo

Anyway... this is all to say that jazz is pretty hard for us to get, especially if we didn't grow up listening. The major trumpet players that do improve also spent much of their youth listening to [name famous jazz trumpeter] so there's been a lot of ear time hearing tunes. Do trombonists do this? I don't know. I'd love to start listening to trombone jazz improv, and I watched a lot of Lincoln Center during Covid, but I still feel like I don't have much jazz trombone in my head.

imsevimse · by **imsevimse** » 2021-11-15 12:13 p.m.

[quote="comebackplayer"]I'm a trumpet player learning trombone, and I also had thought, "maybe I could learn to improv..." and then realized how hard it is. There are some jazz bars near me and I've heard gifted trumpet players at them. I later have seen many people like me (comeback player, not naturally gifted, not hours a day to practice) run full speed into the wall on improv and give up. In my opinion it is *much* harder than it looks.

On trumpet, it seems like to improv well, ideally you have:

-learned dozens of classics, hopefully learned via transcription

-can transpose them into almost any key

-have learned minor scales, blues scales, chords, etc. (which are not something most of us get in high school)

-practiced a lot, ideally with live musicians but also maybe also over canned music, etc.

Beyond this you should be musically gifted:

-excellent intonation

-able to play on the offbeat

-able to swing

-able to (on trumpet) slur and articulate creatively

-able to key up with key changes and count out bars while you solo

Anyway... this is all to say that jazz is pretty hard for us to get, especially if we didn't grow up listening. The major trumpet players that do improve also spent much of their youth listening to [name famous jazz trumpeter] so there's been a lot of ear time hearing tunes. Do trombonists do this? I don't know. I'd love to start listening to trombone jazz improv, and I watched a lot of Lincoln Center during Covid, but I still feel like I don't have much jazz trombone in my head.[/quote]
If you want to hear something melodic and easy listening that swings I recommend Trummy Young, Jack Teagarden, Al Grey and JJ in that order.

/Tom

johntarr · by **johntarr** » 2021-11-15 3:41 p.m.

Trombones were much more prominent in early jazz when melody and vocal expression were at the forefront. Later, when bebop became the dominant force in jazz, trombone players just couldn’t play those super fast tempos. Sure, a few were and are able to play pretty fast but nothing like the saxophone or even trumpet.

The saxophonist mostly just needs to move her/his fingers to run scales and arpeggios. The trombonist has to contend with long distances (especially when compared to a key or valve), the weight of the slide and the arm, coordinate air and tongue plus balance the ever changing leverage of the slide. The energy it takes to play scales on the trombone is much greater than most other instruments and that makes it harder to get in the numbers of repetitions that other instruments can do. The saxophonist playing a scale at 200 bpm can get double the number of runs than the trombonist at 100 bpm.

Modern jazz favors velocity.

baileyman · by **baileyman** » 2021-11-16 9:25 a.m.

For speedy playing, that seems to be most of it.

I do think though that there is a lot to learn from Carl Fontana's idea of "the nearest next note". The fastest place to play is in one partial. (Note that this includes notes accessible by "half-step valve" as the next lower note is available at any speed up to maybe 6th partial as a bend.) The next fastest place is to include one partial shifts in the same direction. (I suppose that's Willie Dennis and Conrad Herwig style.) Then there's the set of notes surrounding any note. In the middle of the slide there are eight surrounding notes. (I think these are "the nearest next notes" on the horn. There's also "the nearest next note" in the harmony, and matching these two up is a good path. Miles said something like, if you don't like the note you're on, a better note is always a half step away. On trombone, expand that to include any of the eight surrounding notes.) Slowest of all is to include the other positions and alternating slide movements (aka "sawing wood"). (BTW, this is where almost every transcription from some other instrument seems to reside, and exercises, and patterns. But if you have McChesney's Fastest Shift in the West, then go for it.)

Okay, that's the easy part.

Now take that and confine your aural imagination to hear only the things that lie on the horn in this way. The you can speed them up.

Counter to all this is a guy like Herb Gardner, who I get to play with some. He goes way back, even to the very first New Orleans Jazz Fest. He's not fast, he's not slow, but every note is a great satisfaction.

Pre59 · by **Pre59** » 2021-11-16 10:17 a.m.

If double bass players can hold their own solo wise, surely a trombonist can.

It's a question of creating your own rules and style. Jazz is/used to be a hybrid after all. Pull it off, and the rhythm section will thank you for it, and this from an ex double bassist.

johntarr · by **johntarr** » 2021-11-17 2:47 a.m.

Something in human nature seems to favor higher and faster. Why are there more famous violin and piano soloists than viola and cello? One could also ask: Why do trombonists suck at being major concert artists?

I teach both beginning trumpet and trombone. Just figuring out how to hold the trombone, manage its unwieldy nature and find the positions while trying to stabilize the mouthpiece on the face is an enormous set of motor skills. And then you have the tongue and the ever changing volume due to the lengthening and shortening of the slide to learn as well. The trumpet is a lot easier for little bodies and minds to get started with and those students begin making music sooner. For most, this head start or handicap follows students into their formative years.

With all the variations in weight, needing to use the tongue in so many differ ways and contending with the slide motion, playing the trombone takes up a great deal of the motor cortex. Other instruments allow for more of the motor cortex to engage in developing velocity and expressive capabilities, it is what it is.

It is also common to dwell on problems rather than solutions, and I’m doing this now. With that in mind, I’m going to start a new thread: What are your best practices for developing your abilities to improvise? I hope to read your words of wisdom over there.

John

brumpone · by **brumpone** » 2022-01-05 1:21 p.m.

I recalled this thread as I was watching a very interesting YouTube video from pianist and composer Nahre Sol, "Why is Improvisation SO DIFFICULT for Classical Musicians?" https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=FOkgrfemsuU

SaigonSlide · by **SaigonSlide** » 2022-01-09 6:16 a.m.

[quote="mgladdish"].

Never mind not having a Bird, Coltrane, Ornette Coleman, Griffin, Brecker, or Potter to look up to, we don't even have a genuine A-lister that eschews "flashy" technique like Chet Baker, Getz or, to a lesser extent, even Jan Garbarek. The latter is even more perplexing to me - the trombone should lend itself perfectly to exactly the sort of music Garberek made an entire career out of, yet absolutely nobody is doing it.
[/quote]

I need to disagree here. There are plenty of A-listers these days, and plenty in the past. If you’re looking for Nordic folks: Eje Thelin is great, and Nils Landgren is super tasty. They really have their own trombone heritage there, and there are lots of other great players. I won’t bore everyone by listing off all the great players out there around this neck of the woods. Julian Priester especially in the Dave Holland quintet was superb, and Ryan Keberle has some super interesting stuff and a very organic approach.

I would like to add one thing to this discussion. The best improvisers are first and foremost exactly that: an improviser. They can just make music. It’s in their head, ears, fingers, soul…The instrument they choose to play is almost just fate. There are many examples of players that really ‘fell into’ the trombone for whatever reason. The trombone is a bear and we do have to shed A LOT to play what we hear. It’s worth it though and it certainly can be done.

Someone should change the name of this thread too.

Sunbeam21 · by **Sunbeam21** » 2022-06-14 5:55 p.m.

Maybe we could just sound like a trombone when we solo-go for beautiful melodies rather than be speed demons with excess notes like saxes/trumpets/guitars/keys.

We get lost in comparing ourselves to them and should celebrate our difference.

imsevimse · by **imsevimse** » 2022-06-15 3:15 p.m.

Yes, go for melodic solos. Who wants fast licks, that sounds like fast licks? No one wants to heat that.

/Tom

harrisonreed · by **harrisonreed** » 2022-06-15 6:31 p.m.

Frank Rosolino says "no, it's gotta be the fast licks!"

<YOUTUBE id="RT5FrYz7RtI">~~[media]~~https://youtu.be/RT5FrYz7RtI</YOUTUBE>

baileyman · by **baileyman** » 2022-06-16 7:24 a.m.

Very interesting and welcome progress is happening from a few daily repeats.

0 improvise the sound of changes in quarter notes against a metronome--find all the notes that work

1 do pentatonics with chromatic passing notes within partials, and apply patterns (Carl scales)

2 learn the sound of adding whole tones from 6th partial and up

3 explore using a half-step bend on "dle"

4 learn the sound of fragments of diminished scales for where they fit

5 aggressively alter patterns to fit simple slide movement

afugate · by **afugate** » 2022-06-16 9:54 a.m.

[quote="baileyman"]Very interesting and welcome progress is happening from a few daily repeats.

0 improvise the sound of changes in quarter notes against a metronome--find all the notes that work

1 do pentatonics with chromatic passing notes within partials, and apply patterns (Carl scales)

~~[color=#FF0000]~~2 learn the sound of adding whole tones from 6th partial and up

3 explore using a half-step bend on "dle"

4 learn the sound of fragments of diminished scales for where they fit

5 aggressively alter patterns to fit simple slide movement[/quote]

I like this - especially #2. It adds the alterations on dominant 7 chords, right?

--Andy in OKC

Bach5G · by **Bach5G** » 2022-07-05 12:47 a.m.

Does anyone have any thoughts about M Lake’s Trombone Improvisation Savvy?

BGuttman · by **BGuttman** » 2022-07-05 1:51 a.m.

[quote="Bach5G"]Does anyone have any thoughts about M Lake’s Trombone Improvisation Savvy?[/quote]

I have it. I like it. Haven't had enough opportunity to get through it, though. It won't work overnight, but then again nothing will. It's like learning a language.

baileyman · by **baileyman** » 2022-07-05 7:34 a.m.

The first exercise I looked at was about getting through a series of changes with lots of discussion. Then I noticed it was all C pentatonic.

PaulTdot · by **PaulTdot** » 2022-07-05 5:24 p.m.

[quote="afugate"]I like this - especially #2. It adds the alterations on dominant 7 chords, right?

--Andy in OKC[/quote]

I'm not the original poster, but I can tell you what it probably is:

It's an area of the horn where there is a "natural" whole-tone scale. For instance, if I slur up from G in short second :trebleclef: :space5: (8vb), I'll get A and then B and then C#. So you can play short whole-tone passages as natural slurs (and extend it a little if you're willing to do the work of moving the slide just a tiny bit more...).

There are many possible uses for a whole-tone scale, but the most common/typical would happen in the context of a dominant chord.

You might see it as root-2-3-#4 (e.g. G-A-B-C# on a G7 chord), or any combination of notes in the same whole-tone scale as the root (of the dominant chord) on a 7th chord with a raised fifth (G7(#5), F7(#5), Eb7(#5), Db7(#5), B7(#5), or A7(#5)).

Hard to say whether either counts as "adding the alterations" or not, depending on how you think about it. In some styles of music that's very welcome and in some others it could sound foreign and unwelcome.

baileyman · by **baileyman** » 2022-07-06 8:00 a.m.

Oh, heck, forgot to reply.

So yes, from 5th partial especially it's easy to line up whole tones. They line up nicely on b7, 1, 2, 3 and it may sound right to do #4, and then adding a lower whole tone may nicely make a change especially in the third phrase of blues. That's about the extent of my theory knowledge. Mostly I suggest knowing the sound of the whole tones and where they nicely lie can make for interesting things to hear and do. Playing scalewise on the line is cool, but so is alternating intervals of all types.

hyperbolica · by **hyperbolica** » 2022-07-09 9:12 p.m.

OP here. This has kind of taken on a life of its own. I ran across something that looks like it might be helpful to folks like me who have a hard time with this stuff. I get a lot of arrangements from Robert Elkjer, so I saw that he wrote an improv book. He has a video about it, and it looks like it breaks stuff down into things you can actually play on your instrument instead of getting lost in your head. Anyway, check this out:

<YOUTUBE id="NDLuD78Rst0">https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=NDLuD78Rst0</YOUTUBE>

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Why Do Trombonists Suck At Improvising?