How do I learn to improvise so I don't suck?

Kingfan · by **Kingfan** » 2021-01-21 10:52 p.m.

I didn't want to hijack the "Why Do Trombonists Suck At Improvising?" thread, so I'm starting a new thread. I've had a mental block against learning to improvise for over 40 years. Background - I'm a chronologically gifted player, classical background early but played a lot of big band in the last 30 years and lead a band for a few. Good sight reader, good range, decent technique. I'm not looking to be great, just able to play 16 bars in an amateur big band when my turn comes around and not suck. What I have - a cassette and book "Jazz Anyone?" by Willie Thorn, Aeberbold's cd and book "Maiden Voyage", and a Hal Leonard "All Blues". I have a Yam silent mute so can play without making my wife have yet another reason to strangle me in my sleep.

The three resources I mentioned have been collecting dust since I got them 15-20 years ago. I put on my big boy pants today and grabbed the blues set, figuring it would be a good place to start. Yeah, it has songs and chords, but I needed to know what to do with them first. GRRRRR! I have had people tell me "Just play scales in all keys and then listen to what is going on in the music" which to me it like saying "practice using your torque wrench then rebuild your brakes" with no in-between steps. You know the people who can hear a melody and then play it without music? That ain't me.

I'm looking for advice on how to take the first steps in the right direction. Did I pick the wrong Aebersold book, and if so what should I get? Should I try private Skype lessons? There are some people who are tone deaf, are there some who are improvisation deaf? I'm retired so time isn't an issue; I just don't want to spin my wheels and go nowhere, or go in the wrong direction. Ok, let the opinions begin!

Doug_Elliott · by **Doug_Elliott** » 2021-01-21 11:25 p.m.

I totally remember the time (in high school) when I had no idea how to start, or what to play, and whenever I tried, all of my technique went out the window. I got started by doing a lot of transcribing and copying. At the time that was mostly Urbie Green and Bob Brookmeyer.

At this point I suggest hitting it from as many different angles as possible.

Read Zac Lee's post in that other thread, it's all important stuff.

Listen, Transcribe.

Play by ear, every day. Get to know your way around the horn so you can play anything in any key without reading and without getting lost. That means tunes, etudes, scales, arpeggios, and maybe some patterns. You can't feel comfortable improvising unless you completely know your horn.

There's lots more but in my opinion that's where you need to start.

Bach5G · 2021-01-21 11:46 p.m.

I feel as if I’m in the same boat as you Kingfan. I found this short YouTube video from Shawn Bell a helpful place to start.

<YOUTUBE id="uRijurX01WI">https://youtu.be/uRijurX01WI</YOUTUBE>

Here’s another:

<YOUTUBE id="JG82HQXKFq0">https://youtu.be/JG82HQXKFq0</YOUTUBE>

With all due respect to Zac and Doug, you don’t need to know it all in order to get started. If you did, nearly no one would be able to improvise. What is odd is that it should be easier than ever. You can listen to anyone simply by asking Alexa. For example, I just asked my Alexa to play Vic Dickinson and there he is. There are apps that slow music down so you can transcribe the solos. I bought 5 Curtis Fuller CDs for $20 with free delivery. Apps like IReal Pro will play the changes to almost any tune (in any key, at any tempo) as well as basic exercises (simple blues, V chords, ii-V-I progressions, all keys all tempos). All sorts of pros are on line teaching over zoom. There is an avalanche of instructional material out there. What is lacking, maybe, is the chance to jam with other musicians but you know other musicians and there are probably classes in night schools and community colleges.

Doug_Elliott · by **Doug_Elliott** » 2021-01-22 12:33 a.m.

Of course you don't need to "know it all" to get started... But it's a big part of getting started. You DO need to be able to play by ear - that's what improvising is all about. It almost doesn't matter how good or bad you are at it, doing it more makes you better and more comfortable at it.

I would argue that part of the problem is the vast amount of material available. "More stuff to work on" doesn't make you better. Concentrating on a small amount of good material is what makes you learn it.

Learn ONE phrase or a whole song by ear with no mistakes.

Transcribe ONE solo you like and learn it well.

When I'm transcribing, I don't keep track but it wouldn't surprise me if I listen to it 100 times in the course of learning it.

Savio · by **Savio** » 2021-01-22 2:45 a.m.

I'm definitely not an expert here, but I also think it has a lot to do with being brave enough to just trying. I teach a lot of kids and they seem to be more brave than me.

harrisonreed · by **harrisonreed** » 2021-01-22 3:26 a.m.

[quote="Savio"]I'm definitely not an expert here, but I also think it has a lot to do with being brave enough to just trying. I teach a lot of kids and they seem to be more brave than me.[/quote]

Yep...

I am terrible at improvising. But I feel braver if I had written out the solo I wanted to play beforehand and memorized it. Then if I forget a little of what I memorized, I can "improvise" within that box I learned.

baileyman · by **baileyman** » 2021-01-22 7:36 a.m.

Try playing with recordings of singers. It's really great to learn the melody along with them. Then after that works, start making up things to fit in the "holes". Those are the pauses between phrases. You may hear a song or two with this kind of singer/horn duet as it's pretty common.

Wilktone · by **Wilktone** » 2021-01-22 8:03 a.m.

I'm a big fan of Hal Crook's books "How To Improvise: An Approach To Practicing Improvisation" and "Ready, Aim, Improvise." He points out that a lot of improvisers spend all their time with the "ready, fire, aim" approach. It's a good way to practice using your ear and intuition that way, but progress is slower because you don't set targeted goals.

In a nutshell, his suggestions for learning to improvise involve focusing on a single topic and spending your practice time only on improvement in that area. In his books he breaks down improvisation into three basic areas - when to play (use of silence, phrase lengths, syncopation, etc.) what to play (scales, chord tones, non-harmonic tones, etc.), and how to play (soft, loud, high, low, staccato, legato, etc.). In each of those areas he provides examples of specific topics and offers exercises to practice improvisation in ways that will help you improve and internalize how to use that topic to generate expression in your improvisations. He makes a compelling argument that restricting your improvisations within these exercises (e.g., play for 4 bars, rest for 4 bars/play for 3 bars, rest for 2 bars) leads to the freedom to apply those musical devises when soloing (e.g., using silence to great effect as Count Basie or Miles Davis might).

Those books might not be currently in print, but if you can find them they are well worth finding and buying them.

I can offer some additional details about how I've used this approach in my own practicing and teaching, if you're interested.

Dave

ArbanRubank · by **ArbanRubank** » 2021-01-22 8:07 a.m.

[quote="harrisonreed"]<QUOTE author="Savio" post_id="138097" time="1611301516" user_id="3155">
I'm definitely not an expert here, but I also think it has a lot to do with being brave enough to just trying. I teach a lot of kids and they seem to be more brave than me.[/quote]

Yep...

I am terrible at improvising. But I feel braver if I had written out the solo I wanted to play beforehand and memorized it. Then if I forget a little of what I memorized, I can "improvise" within that box I learned.
</QUOTE>

Hah! I once had a beautiful high solo all worked out for myself. But by the time we got to that number - near the very end of our performance - I was so gassed that I had to come up with something else on the fly. Be careful what you work out for yourself in advance! Make sure it's playable under all conditions. If it's too high, you might fail and if it's too low, the background ruckus might drown you out. I hate it when someone steps up for a solo and the other band members are still blowing their lungs out through their horns. But yeah, that's a great plan - in concept.

Like anything else, it seems some of us were born able to improvise. But that doesn't mean the rest of us can't learn, through methods such as noted directly above.

Elow · by **Elow** » 2021-01-22 8:34 a.m.

Something that my teacher started me on is limiting yourself to only a couple notes and not too complex rhythms. Forcing yourself into a box and just getting comfortable improvising easy stuff really helped me. I’m no elliott mason, and probably won’t ever be, but i think i’m still better than the average joe. Starting was the hardest part for me

hyperbolica · by **hyperbolica** » 2021-01-22 8:42 a.m.

I'm a learner here, too, but as others have mentioned, confidence is a great first step. Plus, you have to allow yourself to suck. You're not going to be Watrous your first ride.

I've started by screwing around at the end of a song - you know, that noodling that folks do after the last note. This is usually short, and you can experiment with landing on 2 or 6 or 7 - something other than 1,3,5.

Next I play Christmas tunes and screw with the melody.

Somebody posted a great link in the other thread about walking a bass line, going 1,2,3,4 for each chord change, and learning blues scales. It was stuff that's simple enough to do and build confidence.

Don't take this the wrong way, but Zaclee's post was kind of discouraging to me. That level of commitment is what I'm afraid of. If that's what it takes, I'm going to give up yesterday. But i can learn to play 1,2,3 in I, IV, V progression.

So I'm not there, for sure, but I've started. If you've got Band In A Box or iReal Pro that's a fun way to practice without embarrassing your self too much. To get started, you have to be willing to suck a little at first.

PhilTrombone · by **PhilTrombone** » 2021-01-22 9:45 a.m.

Re transcribing, and listening. Yes, yes and yes again. This is how all the old greats learned! Sneaking into clubs and just soaking it in. :biggrin:

Re developing your ears:

Many years ago, I was in a jazz workshop led by Grachan Moncur. We had 4 students. He had us play "Giant Steps" again and again, in various configurations. One person played the bass notes, another the thirds, another the melody, and so on. And then we would switch roles. After a while, one began to really hear the changes, and be able to do some soloing.

Thank you Grachan, if you are on this group!!!

Using a tool like ireal (fantastic tool) one could do the something similar with any tune, finding the notes. Play the bass notes of the tune. Walk your own bass line, etc. A great first step to really hearing the changes.

I also studied jazz guitar, and my teachers' mantra was "find the line". Meaning as one examines the chord changes, find a smooth line of notes to play. And he was always talking about developing your "horn sense". This contrasts with most of the jazz and rock guitar teaching I see online which is not about hearing changes and melody, but about spitting out rote patterns.

Putting in some time on a piano will also help you hear and visualize changes.

Now that I've said all this, I too wish I was a better jazz soloist!!!!! :shuffle:

Do as I say, not as I do! :clever:

ithinknot · by **ithinknot** » 2021-01-22 10:14 a.m.

[quote="Doug Elliott"]Of course you don't need to "know it all" to get started... But it's a big part of getting started. You DO need to be able to play by ear - that's what improvising is all about. It almost doesn't matter how good or bad you are at it, doing it more makes you better and more comfortable at it.[/quote]

^This.

[quote="Kingfan"]You know the people who can hear a melody and then play it without music? That ain't me.[/quote]

Can you hear a melody and then sing it (notwithstanding singing quality)? If yes, then the scales/arpeggios/etc in all keys is what will help you bridge the brain-horn divide. If no, then you need to work on ear training above all else.

The other important thing is to realise how much you already know without realising it, and how to convert familiarity into practical knowledge.

Starting with a lead sheet, you're already not completely tied to the score. You know when to swing, to accent certain syncopations, and so on. Then see what else you can do to characterize the melody without changing pitches. Then gradually move away through addition and subtraction. At this point, theory knowledge provides a much more efficient means of avoiding (the harmonic implications of) the least successful melodic changes, but trial and error is still an option.

You can tell the difference between Frank Sinatra and Dean Martin in about half a second, right? And the same with your favorite instrumentalists. But how many of the differences can you put into words, or replicate on an instrument? Stylistic awareness as a listener doesn't automatically turn into replication ability as a player, but it's the starting point. You have to listen curiously and analytically to make that conversion. Depending on your aural skills and predispositions in learning methods - visual or otherwise, transcription may be an important part of this process.

Some of these things will be instrumental/technical (the combinations of air shape/jaw vib/lip bends up/slide falls that Carl Fontana uses to make terminal notes disappear in a puff of smoke), some musical/theoretical (JJ's descending 4ths or repeated 3rds). Most will be a mixture, or depend on context. You could approximate Si Zentner's slide vibrato - but is that what immediately distinguishes him from Buddy Morrow, or Tommy Dorsey in an earthquake? No, to me it's the particular approach to playing behind the beat, grabbing key melody notes and rushing subsidiary ones, that marks out his distinctively overwrought delivery. But you probably already knew that, even if you didn't realise it :good:

ExZacLee · by **ExZacLee** » 2021-01-22 10:26 a.m.

Can't play what you hear? Why? How much have you worked on that?

I mentioned in the post on the other thread the need to learn melodies you know on your horn.

How much of that have you done? Did you learn any this morning?

I'm in my PJs at 4am (because that's the only time i have to practice with a baby) picking out a Bennie Goodman lick on a piano from his solo break on Mary Lou Williams' "Lonely Moments" because it's embedded in my brain pan and I can't sleep with a clarinet solo on repeat. Later on today when I have some free time before a big band rehearsal, I'll transfer it to the horn and take it through a 3 or 4 keys. No one is telling you to do this - but seriously - if you can't commit to an hour of practice a day, how do you expect to learn it? Or anything for that matter? There aren't any "special secrets" we're not telling you. The "short cut" is transcribing a butt ton of solos and memorizing them. Trust me when I tell you that working on developing the connection between your ears and your horn is the short cut.

The growth in knowledge tends to get exponential once you pass a certain point. You just need to get past the basics. When i started seriously practicing, it was one song at a time. When the pattern recognition set in, one song could teach me a thousand... and then it's just building on top of what you already know.

If anyone is seriously intimidated by this skill (and not just fishing for an easier way - there isn't one) we can schedule a zoom meet to talk about it.

This is hardly "knowing it all" - it's literally step one. It's also step 1,276,378. And it's the most important.

Doug_Elliott · by **Doug_Elliott** » 2021-01-22 11:51 a.m.

LOTS of great information here.

Speaking of Frank Sinatra... LISTEN to what he does with melodies ... especially rhythmically. Listen, don't just hear.

When you're learning improvising, don't try to be Watrous or Fontana, try to be Sinatra. Make melodies that fit, the simpler the better.

Kingfan · by **Kingfan** » 2021-01-22 12:11 p.m.

[quote="Doug Elliott"]LOTS of great information here.

Speaking of Frank Sinatra... LISTEN to what he does with melodies ... especially rhythmically. Listen, don't just hear.

When you're learning improvising, don't try to be Watrous or Fontana, try to be Sinatra. Make melodies that fit, the simpler the better.[/quote]

I agree with the Sinatra comment - I don't solos whose main purpose is to play as many notes as fast as possible. That said, yeah, lots of good ideas in general, but I am STILL looking for a specific place to start. I know by now how I learn - give me a manual, a lesson book, etc. That is why I was asking about the Aebersold stuff. One thought I had was start with the blues, which no nobody has mentioned as an option.

I am regretting starting this thread.

Doug_Elliott · by **Doug_Elliott** » 2021-01-22 12:48 p.m.

Don't regret starting it - we absolutely need this kind of thread.

As with advice on chops, I will say I'd need to see what you are doing now to give valid advice on where to go from here. I'm not set up to do jazz lessons but I can probably give you some advice over Skype if you want. Lots of people are teaching online now.

Kingfan · by **Kingfan** » 2021-01-22 1:17 p.m.

[quote="Doug Elliott"]Don't regret starting it - we absolutely need this kind of thread.

As with advice on chops, I will say I'd need to see what you are doing now to give valid advice on where to go from here. I'm not set up to do jazz lessons but I can probably give you some advice over Skype if you want. Lots of people are teaching online now.[/quote]

I'm doing nothing now, yesterday was my first try. I'm regretting starting this for the simple reason that since I never tried in the 53 years I've been playing trombone so I haven't failed at it. Trying and not getting it is failure. I feel like forgetting the whole thing and sticking to what I do well on trombone. Yeah, I need a good shrink...

hyperbolica · by **hyperbolica** » 2021-01-22 1:23 p.m.

[quote="Kingfan"]

I am regretting starting this thread.[/quote]

Don't be. I think you and I are in the same boat. People on one end of the spectrum don't necessarily get what it means to be on the other end of the spectrum.

Kingfan, really, check this out. Someone else posted a link to this earlier, there are two videos:

<YOUTUBE id="JG82HQXKFq0">https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=JG82HQXKFq0</YOUTUBE>

This gives you something simple you can work on, based on stuff you probably already know. It's an achievable starting point. For me, starting with a walking bass line was a great place to start, then arpeggios, then patterns related to those. Walk before you run, don't jump in the deep end first. Do something with realistic expectations and build your confidence. The guy in the video recommends all of that in parallel with blues scales. Totally doable for square cats like you and me. :good:

Doug_Elliott · by **Doug_Elliott** » 2021-01-22 1:30 p.m.

[quote="hyperbolica"]People on one end of the spectrum don't necessarily get what it means to be on the other end of the spectrum.[/quote]

That's why I mentioned earlier that I totally get it, because I started as a classical player and very much remember having no idea what to play. Like I said, I'm not set up for teaching jazz but I'd be happy to spend a few minutes on Skype to help you get started.

BGuttman · by **BGuttman** » 2021-01-22 1:33 p.m.

I was in a Dixieland band and needed to be able to take a solo (our standard run was 5 times through the song: tutti, Cornet, Clarinet, Trombone, Tutti). I couldn't not take a lick. So I played with the melody. A little figure here or there within the tune. As I got better at it, I could digress a bit more from the tune. I'm never going to sound like Trombone Shorty, so I don't even try. Being able to do some of the simpler solos by the likes of Tom Brown, Kid Ory, etc. were fine with me. I like to solo in Big Band on nice ballads that don't take to a lot of "jazzing". They handed me IGSOY and told me I "owned" it. The easier arrangement in Bb (doesn't go quite as high). I leave the stream of notes solos to the saxophones, who seem to prefer that.

hyperbolica · by **hyperbolica** » 2021-01-22 1:43 p.m.

[quote="Doug Elliott"]<QUOTE author="hyperbolica" post_id="138150" time="1611339791" user_id="104">
People on one end of the spectrum don't necessarily get what it means to be on the other end of the spectrum.[/quote]

That's why I mentioned earlier that I totally get it, because I started as a classical player and very much remember having no idea what to play.
</QUOTE>

Yeah, Doug, but with all due respect, you said you struggled in high school. We're old enough to have been that kid's grandparents. When you have a history of being afraid of it, especially classically trained people who already have an ingrained fear of imperfection, just getting started gets harder and harder with time. I think before we can do anything remotely musical or jazzy, we have to erode decades of fear first. Not to be too dramatic, but you guys, I think, don't get that part. You'd have to forget 40 years of success to be able to relate to the fear connected with this for some people.

Bach5G · by **Bach5G** » 2021-01-22 2:24 p.m.

If I was struggling to get a basic handle on improvising on trombone ( and I am only a small step or two away from that status), I’d download iReal Pro, fire up Blues - Simple in F at a moderate tempo for 30 (the maximum) choruses, and have at it. Repeat as needed.

Maybe down the road I’d learn all my chords, all my scales, transcribe my favourite solos, etc. But that’s not where I’d start.

BGuttman · by **BGuttman** » 2021-01-22 2:35 p.m.

[quote="Bach5G"]If I was struggling to get a basic handle on improvising on trombone ( and I am only a small step or two away from that status), I’d download iReal Pro, fire up Blues - Simple in F at a moderate temp for 30 (the maximum) choruses, and have at it. Repeat as needed.

Maybe down the road I’d learn all my chords, all my scales, transcribe my favourite solos, etc. But that’s not where I’d start.[/quote]

This is almost the opposite of what I did. I started with a tune to play. "Jazzing up" a tune is easier than trying to figure out what to play to a chord progression. Working from a tune lets you have some focus on what to add. Is it a sad tune? a happy tune? put in some stuff that enhances the sad or happy vibe.

Kingfan · by **Kingfan** » 2021-01-22 2:37 p.m.

[quote="hyperbolica"]<QUOTE author="Doug Elliott" post_id="138152" time="1611340252" user_id="51">

That's why I mentioned earlier that I totally get it, because I started as a classical player and very much remember having no idea what to play.[/quote]

Yeah, Doug, but with all due respect, you said you struggled in high school. We're old enough to have been that kid's grandparents. When you have a history of being afraid of it, especially classically trained people who already have an ingrained fear of imperfection, just getting started gets harder and harder with time. I think before we can do anything remotely musical or jazzy, we have to erode decades of fear first. Not to be too dramatic, but you guys, I think, don't get that part. You'd have to forget 40 years of success to be able to relate to the fear connected with this for some people.
</QUOTE>

You nailed my thoughts exactly!

Bach5G · by **Bach5G** » 2021-01-22 2:42 p.m.

This is almost the opposite of what I did. I started with a tune to play. "Jazzing up" a tune is easier than trying to figure out what to play to a chord progression. Working from a tune lets you have some focus on what to add. Is it a sad tune? a happy tune? put in some stuff that enhances the sad or happy vibe.

Start with C Jam Blues. In F. :)

ArbanRubank · by **ArbanRubank** » 2021-01-22 3:03 p.m.

I believe there are certain "techniques" to avoid when learning jazz: smears and scoops. Hardly anyone knows how to do them properly, outside of a Dixieland setting. I see Facebook and YouTube vids of guys "jazzing up" a pop song using those. They just sound awful - like a drunk playing the trombone.

hyperbolica · 2021-01-22 3:12 p.m.

I had a story, but apparently it wasn't shocking enough.

Just to say that getting started is at least partially psychological. Don't take any wooden nickles.

ArbanRubank · by **ArbanRubank** » 2021-01-22 3:36 p.m.

Very colorful story! I have a similar fail. I've played in small groups and have done improv solos ala the Harrison Technique of working it out ahead of time and I did fine. Then I asked to sit in with a smallish combo. I again did okay for the first couple songs, being familiar enough with the tunes to fake my way through a minimum number of bars. Then they started calling out songs I never heard of before. So I turned to the guy on my left and asked him what key. He didn't know. I asked the guy on my right. He didn't know. I packed my horn up and exited. I didn't ask to sit in to embarrass myself or the group. A man has to know his limitations.

ithinknot · by **ithinknot** » 2021-01-22 3:44 p.m.

[quote="ArbanRubank"]So I turned to the guy on my left and asked him what key. He didn't know. I asked the guy on my right. He didn't know.[/quote]

... what were they about to play, then? :pant:

Doug_Elliott · by **Doug_Elliott** » 2021-01-22 4:12 p.m.

Do you really think your situation is that much different from the people with chop problems that I help? The ones with actual orchestra gigs who are afraid to pick up their horn because they don't know what will come out?

If you actually want to get better you need to face it. I'm not hiring you for a gig - you don't have to look good for me, I just want to help you get better.

harrisonreed · by **harrisonreed** » 2021-01-22 7:09 p.m.

[quote="hyperbolica"]Let me tell a little story on myself. I've never admitted this to anyone out loud. I lived near a very nice city for music, and I had a lot of contacts. I had a different day job, but I played a lot of great gigs, including recordings and under internationally renown trombonists. Then I got this job playing in a big house with a fancy stage band. Just before intermission, I was fumbling through my music trying to get things in order when I heard my name called out over the speakers. It was the conductor and he was gesturing toward me. I thought :amazed: "Oh, $#!+, he wants me to play a solo", so I cut loose with the most godawful stream of goat poking you've ever heard. :horror: After which I immediately packed up my horn, apologized to the guy who recommended me, and left.
[/quote]

What you didn't know is that the gig was actually a lot more low brow then you thought, and they were just trying to tell you that your car lights were still on during the performance, or that you ticket has been pulled at the potluck...

Sorry that's a bad joke, making light of a realistic and bad situation. I think I'd have a really hard time coming to grips with a situation going down like that if I had that happen to me. It's too bad you had to hang it up, but did you get out of that slump?

harrisonreed · by **harrisonreed** » 2021-01-22 7:17 p.m.

As for the fear, I think you need to find people who are better than you who want to work with you, and perform with you warts and all. Those people are the real saviors, and they helped me exorcise some demons. Again, I'm terrible at improvising. But I'm not terrified of playing a solo in front of a crowd, and the real fear, the fear of sucking pond water in front of people who I respect or admire, is gone -- they already know I suck and don't care. They just create an opportunity for me to not suck in front of an audience.

I don't think it's something you can learn in a practice room, even with iRealB. You learn it trying to make music with people who are way better than you AND who care.

Doug_Elliott · by **Doug_Elliott** » 2021-01-22 7:28 p.m.

A performance, even just with friends, is not the place to LEARN how to play. It's where you try out what you've worked out and practiced and learned on your own time, in a practice room, with or without current technology.

imsevimse · 2021-01-22 7:45 p.m.

I'll try to help with how I started. I was about 16 years old in a 8 parts orchestra. Trumpet, trombone, three saxes, piano, bass and drums. The solos were often eight bars or a 12 bar blues, sometimes with a repeat. Occasionally it was 16 bars and then I struggled more. I had never done a solo. I looked at the chords and decided the first phrase. This was the only thing I decided back then. If the first chord was a F-major I might think of a phrase that made use of a F triad or a F6 chord. I imagined something syncopated before the tune even started. This was as if I had the first phrase printed on paper "inside my head".It was different things each time because I did not want to repeat myself in front of my colleagues. After that it took off, I just played by ear. As I developed I learned the blues scale. I made sure to know the G, C, F ,Bb and Eb blues scales since these were the most common keys. Then I learned all pentatonic scales and played them in patterns. Of course as beeing taught the trombone I already knew the minor and major scales in every key by ear For a long time when a solo came up I did as I always did. I planned the first phrase ahead and after that I just played by ear. Then I bought most of the Aebersold and played everyone, over and over again. Later I begun to learn Swedish folksongs by ear and played them in every key. I still do this. It helps a lot to know the instrument. Now when a solo comes up I do not think at all, I just play what ever comes up and people seams to take no offense. I remember nothing after a solo, I'm totally blank. I have to listen to a recording to know. I'm no master at this, but I have no problems to take a solo. I think I'm about average on the pro scene over here. You can hear what this all led to if you click on my profile. There is a video here where I play my Superbone. It is not the best I can do not the worst. It is an average solo made in one take for 7 minutes. If you listen you can decide if the route was successful enough.

Good luck!

/Tom

Savio · by **Savio** » 2021-01-22 8:09 p.m.

[quote="Doug Elliott"]A performance, even just with friends, is not the place to LEARN how to play. It's where you try out what you've worked out and practiced and learned on your own time, in a practice room, with or without current technology.[/quote]

I understand what you think, but I disagree. A performance can teach you to be a musician. The practice room can learn you the trombone.

Leif

Doug_Elliott · by **Doug_Elliott** » 2021-01-22 8:22 p.m.

What I'm saying is, don't make everybody else listen to you practice.

harrisonreed · by **harrisonreed** » 2021-01-22 9:19 p.m.

[quote="Doug Elliott"]A performance, even just with friends, is not the place to LEARN how to play. It's where you try out what you've worked out and practiced and learned on your own time, in a practice room, with or without current technology.[/quote]

I might have worded that wrong. Definitely don't LEARN during a live performance. I've met great people who have given me multiple shots to smooth out what I've worked on during a rehearsal though, then we perform like how we rehearsed. I don't think you can get past the fear of making a fool of yourself in front of your peers or your betters alone in the practice room.

That's what I was talking about.

AndrewMeronek · by **AndrewMeronek** » 2021-01-23 6:08 a.m.

From a post relevant here by Bruce Forman that he put on Facebook:

First of all, let me state unequivocally that one must emulate and learn from the masters and incorporate their contribution mixed with your aesthetic. And if you think I haven’t borrowed some and stole more, I suggest you check out my playing again! (When the following makes you mad, read this again!) So, why am I writing this? Because I have a problem with the ritualistic nature of transcribing today.

The word ‘transcribe’ generally means to write down…and of all the things to learn, that is the least important part of the process. Words (like notes and rhythms) matter…content, context, nuance, intent, shading, contrast are elements learned in this process and are all far more important than writing down for a test or to prove to your peers you did your homework. Learning from others is practice, not playing, and I personally never felt the need to get a ribbon or enjoy elevated status for just doing my homework.

Here are three essential elements from the transcribing thing:

Whole solos: This seems to be the rage today…and let me tell you how great it is. But, to gather the notes and rhythms and then play along as a sideshow presentation…sorry! If you haven’t listened so many times (100 or so) that you can sing it, and then again as many times playing along with it…then sorry, you’re just participating, not comprehending it on that deep level that makes it a part of your own language. Also, you need to know the tune in the first place…before you do this!

Pieces: This is also an important part, finding a phrase that goes over a specific chord or cadence, and really doing the engineering work to figure out everything about it. This is another essential aspect of transcribing (man, I hate that word, can we find something else?) Take the phrase and play it in songs that have that harmonic situation, play into it and out of it, change direction, add notes, reduce it to important notes, find a hidden substitute chord inside and use that, start on different beats, resolve to different qualities of the chord…this matures this vital information into a concept that is usable in myriad situations and is the genesis of your personal style…because it demands imagination and commitment to the creative process on your part!

Channeling: This might seem a bit strange to some, but what I am dealing with here are some important bandstand creativity aspects that the traditional transcribing game can’t give you. Take a player you like, listen a few times to a tune you like, try to absorb the defining qualities and then channel that into your playing (preferably a different song). This will call on you paying attention to big picture things like phrasing, density, consonance vs dissonance, rhythmic approach, dynamics, shading of the time…and then you will have to take your existing vocabulary and make it work to achieve a goal…

I came up in a time where it wasn’t cool to play other people’s ideas or solos (even though we would all sing along with solos on breaks when they were played on the jukebox). While I am ambivalent about all of that, there was a certain sense of ‘do your own thing’ that embraces the ethos and spirit of this music. I was publicly chastised once for playing someone’s solo, and I believe the point was to teach me, not to shame me. “Play in public and practice in private!”

If anyone isn't familiar with Bruce's playing, I recommend you check him out. He's fantastic, and a fantastic educator. And his Cow Bop stuff is great fun. :biggrin:

afugate · by **afugate** » 2021-01-23 10:32 a.m.

I'll give you a simple place to start.

Others have mentioned the connection between ears and horn. Personal opinion - trombone players seem to have the worst ears of any section. Perhaps we spend so much time working on technique and mastering the horn that we fail to really train our ears to listen and then connect that to the horn. (I dunno - perhaps there are people smarter than me who have more informed opinions on this than mine as a rank amateur. :idk:)

That place to start? For me it was the extended cable channels where all they play is music. I picked a station with music I liked and recognized and started trying to play along. I was terrible. But I kept trying and soon I was able to start repeating back what I heard - just a few notes, but it was a start.

Last week, I had my horn out and was attempting to play along and parrot various renditions of a jazz standard. I'm proud to say I was pretty successful, at least with the simpler stuff. Equally as important in my mind, I found myself being able to sing other stuff that fit. :good: :good: I can't play what I sing - yet. But that's at least as much my own person technique challenges as it is the reality of limited quality practice time.

Play along with stuff you know. Connect that to your horn.

--Andy in OKC

Doug_Elliott · by **Doug_Elliott** » 2021-01-23 11:58 a.m.

EXACTLY. Thanks Andy.

Bach5G · by **Bach5G** » 2021-01-23 12:04 p.m.

Who do you listen to?

3 suggestions of bop non-trombone players for trombone players to listen to:

1. Gerry Mulligan (and other bari players). Making a bari swing is no small feat. Throw Chet Baker in here too. (Yes, I know: he played trumpet. Sang too).

2. Paul Desmond. Maybe the antithesis of the Parker alto style.

3. Wes Montgomery. Wes’ right hand technique did not lend itself to a flurry of notes. Wes’ phrasing and note selection is absolutely top drawer.

Bonearzt · by **Bonearzt** » 2021-01-23 12:32 p.m.

I've mentioned before that I don't try to improv solos because I feel I don't have anything to "say" through my horn.

BurckhardtS · by **BurckhardtS** » 2021-01-23 12:48 p.m.

Andy, I don't think it could have been explained better.

ExZacLee · by **ExZacLee** » 2021-01-23 12:52 p.m.

[quote="Bonearzt"]I've mentioned before that I don't try to improv solos because I feel I don't have anything to "say" through my horn.[/quote]

That's fine too! Nobody has to play a solo. I like to do Monk's "Crepuscule with Nellie" because it doesn't have a solo section in it - it's perfect the way it is. It's one of my favorite songs to close with, or use as a ballad on a concert.

And there's nothing I hate worse than blowing a solo where one isn't needed. A colleague added a chorus of solo to an arrangement I did of Cherokee once. I wasn't happy with it and said as much. He was the bandleader and I ended up having to play the extra, unnecessary chorus. I'm still kind of mad about that.

[quote="afugate"]

Play along with stuff you know. Connect that to your horn.

--Andy in OKC[/quote]

I keep saying that. And i keep hearing how hard it is to do.

Doug mentioned playing along with Sinatra. Heck yeah. I'd also add Ella, Johnny Hartman and Sarah Vaughan to that - all music, no fluff. And Bing - Bing's no nonsense approach to stating a melody is an education.

You like the blues? Play along with that. I used to play along with Albert King and Howlin' wolf albums. And Kid Ory - that was my introduction to the blues.

The main thing is we're talking about getting started. Play along with something. Anything. Anything you are familiar with.

First day I had my horn I was trying to pick out the MacGyver theme. Right now it's Hamilton: The Musical. My warmup on days i have time for one is still playing through hymns and folk melodies - has been forever. Amazing Grace, It Is Well With My Soul, Rock of Ages... whatever melody is rolling around in my head.

If you want to learn how to improvise, what are you doing right now to get better at it? What do you like? What are you listening to?

We definitely need more threads like this. There is huge misunderstanding regarding this topic, usually perpetuated by people who haven't really studied this topic.

afugate · by **afugate** » 2021-01-23 1:09 p.m.

[quote="ExZacLee"]The main thing is we're talking about getting started. ~~[color=#FF0000]~~Play along with something. Anything. Anything you are familiar with.

First day I had my horn I was trying to pick out the MacGyver theme. Right now it's Hamilton: The Musical. My warmup on days i have time for one is still playing through hymns and folk melodies - has been forever. Amazing Grace, It Is Well With My Soul, Rock of Ages... whatever melody is rolling around in my head.[/quote]

The very first thing our daughter wanted to learn when she picked up trombone was the melody to All of Me. :D (She learned it first in B flat.)

If you want to learn how to improvise, what are you doing right now to get better at it? What do you like? ~~[color=#FF0000]~~What are you listening to?

One thing about playing along and transcribing. It's all about listening with intent.

These days, when I'm working on arranging (I'm still very much a novice), I spend a great deal of time listening to tunes by the arranger(s) I'm trying to emulate. What is the sax section doing when they are playing behind the brass? Are they in unison? What's the drummer doing to setup and play off the band in the shout chorus? How thick are the brass hits? What are the bass bone and the bari doing under the band?

All of that listening is showing up in my soloing. :good:

--Andy in OKC

BurckhardtS · by **BurckhardtS** » 2021-01-23 2:12 p.m.

[quote="hyperbolica"]

Yeah, Doug, but with all due respect, you said you struggled in high school. We're old enough to have been that kid's grandparents. When you have a history of being afraid of it, especially classically trained people who already have an ingrained fear of imperfection, just getting started gets harder and harder with time. I think before we can do anything remotely musical or jazzy, we have to erode decades of fear first. Not to be too dramatic, but you guys, I think, don't get that part. You'd have to forget 40 years of success to be able to relate to the fear connected with this for some people.[/quote]

I just saw this, and I understand and partially agree with this, but part of 'eroding fear' is accepting the fact that you have that fear, and doing it anyway. I don't think it has anything to do with age, neither does it have anything to do with written music vs improvised music. Personally speaking, I have tons of fears of performing in front of others, some of it stemming from actual past traumas, even with classical music which I spent most of my college time studying. I didn't start getting better at performing until I actually just let myself be fearful, and did it anyway.

It doesn't happen overnight either, mental skills just like any skill you learn takes time and repetition.

I'm pretty passionate about this because those skills are a problem in not only my playing but in my everyday life and I had to figure that out myself.

Bach5G · by **Bach5G** » 2021-01-23 2:39 p.m.

I worry about looking foolish and incompetent. But if I let that get in the way, I wouldn’t have got a lesson from R Sauer, or D Elliott, or attended an Alessi seminar, or a K Eubanks (not Robin) masterclass. Or attended Centrum jazz camp. Or, for that matter go for run (I once finished dead last in a 10 K run. Not even a race, just a run. Absolutely dead last.)

I try to do my homework. I don’t want to waste anybody’s time. But one can’t be bound by unrealistic expectations or by what you think others might think.

And sometimes, you might get it wrong too. So you pick yourself up, dust yourself off, and start all over again.

I’ve also found a little bit of Ativan helps from time to time.

hyperbolica · by **hyperbolica** » 2021-01-23 4:07 p.m.

[quote="harrisonreed"].... but did you get out of that slump?[/quote]

Well, yeah, I'm back playing. I restarted about 7-8 years ago. My need to learn to improvise is completely self-imposed. It's not hampering my career, it's not preventing me from playing with groups I want to play with. It's just a personal goal that I would like to develop at some point.

I know Doug and Zac really think they're helping, but right now, you're mostly contributing to the problem. I can see why Kingfan was kind of wishing he hadn't started this. I think I have to start further back than you guys are imagining. Not with the horn mechanics, but with non-trombone or even non-music related stuff. Confidence. Fear. Willingness to be imperfect, etc. And maybe it is comparable in some way to chop problems, but the comparison isn't helping.

Anyway, I'll get past all that eventually. I've got some friends here who are sympathetic and they're as competent as I aspire to be. One of them even learned to improv in his 50s, so I can see there's hope for me. Their advice overlaps to some extent: learn tunes and play by ear in different keys. Walking bass and blues scales are other advice I think I can follow. Once I can make this work for myself, the big hurdle will be to try some simple stuff with one of my groups. Then I can start with the next level - listening to real pros and delving into more analytical methods to break out beyond the simplistic stuff it's going to take to get me past the non-musical hurdles. Trying to jump straight to emulating pros just gives me another unattainable goal - another excuse for not trying.

Baby steps, I'll eventually get to Giant Steps, right? 😉

Doug_Elliott · by **Doug_Elliott** » 2021-01-23 4:33 p.m.

I know you think I don't get it, but I really do. I have some great simple ways to get started, if you're interested.

Kingfan · by **Kingfan** » 2021-01-23 6:44 p.m.

[quote="Doug Elliott"]I know you think I don't get it, but I really do. I have some great simple ways to get started, if you're interested.[/quote]

I'm still looking at a variety of ways to take that first step. What are your ideas on great simple ways to get started?

Kingfan · by **Kingfan** » 2021-01-23 6:47 p.m.

[quote="Doug Elliott"]I know you think I don't get it, but I really do. I have some great simple ways to get started, if you're interested.[/quote]

So far today I started to look up an old bandmate who did what I'm trying to do many years ago. I can't remember his name, but have feelers out. I checked with three local colleges, one has the New Horizon program with a jazz band and I'm waiting on them to get back to me. I've got an idea or two of things I can do starting tomorrow. That said, I'm very interested to know what great simple steps you would suggest. I'm scared, but I'm not giving up (yet).

harrisonreed · by **harrisonreed** » 2021-01-23 7:24 p.m.

Based on some of this stuff, it seems like the idea (from people who can't improvise, like me) is that people who improvise well are some sort of wizards who can read every change as it comes, analyze on the fly, and make music come out like some sort of scientist. I think it's usually a lot more feel and experience than being a scientist.

bimmerman · by **bimmerman** » 2021-01-23 8:13 p.m.

I also suck at improvising, and have mostly made my peace with the fact I won't be able to join any of the local big bands (my fave type of playing) without much better improv skills. I've tried to learn enough basics to become competent enough to be a section player.....and have honestly given up.

Over the years, I've attended jazz camps, had lessons, bought books, and nothing has really helped. The instructors and teachers I've had pretty much said "just play the changes what's wrong with you, use xyz scale here" which....is distinctly unhelpful.

A greater focus on ear training would probably help quite a bit, but realistically, I just don't have the time or motivation anymore to devote to learning improv. Which sucks, but hobby time isn't infinite.

And yea, I recognize this is a self fulfilling prophecy.

Bach5G · by **Bach5G** » 2021-01-23 8:36 p.m.

“ Over the years, I've attended jazz camps, had lessons, bought books, and nothing has really helped. The instructors and teachers I've had pretty much said "just play the changes what's wrong with you, use xyz scale here" which....is distinctly unhelpful.”

I’ve never found the chord/theory approach very helpful on trombone although it’s a tad more useful on guitar (I also play some guitar). I don’t think we’re missing out in not be able to run scales.

I discovered this tune this week. Kind of struck me as state of the art big band trombone soloing. Christian McBride BB

<LINK_TEXT text="https://music.apple.com/ca/album/in-a-h ... =461294160">https://music.apple.com/ca/album/in-a-hurry/461294131?i=461294160</LINK_TEXT>

James Burton – trombone

Steve Davis – trombone

Michael Dease – trombone

Douglas Purviance – bass trombone

Mike Lake seems to have some interesting things to say about improvising on trombone. Has anyone looked at his stuff? He had a free E-book that appears to be a very basic first step in learning to improvise.

ithinknot · by **ithinknot** » 2021-01-24 4:17 a.m.

"You've got to know loads of theory in advance" vs "You don't need theory - just listen and feel, maaaaan" vs "Erroll Garner couldn't read music"

None is the answer in isolation. Knowledge is always useful, listening and feeling is mandatory (and is just a more personal form of obtaining knowledge). And yes, some of the greats grew up self-taught within a rich musical environment and/or primarily aural/oral tradition - but if you fell into this category, you'd already know about it.

So, as has been said, try playing along with a record you know, busk along with the tv, find a 12 bar blues backing track on YouTube. This is how you start, right now. Pick out the tonic (or any note) and hold it. As the chords change underneath, feel how your note fits some, and fights some others. You were going to practise long tones today anyway, right? :good: Maybe you bring a second note into the mix; maybe that's for tomorrow.

Listen with intent.

Learn theory.

Work on ear training! This isn't just for improv. Practice should be a feedback loop; anything that improves your listening ability makes every aspect of the process more efficient.

Every one of these is an infinite ladder, not a binary ability.

The same goes for confidence. I can't protect you from the opprobrium of your pets, but everyone here wants you to enjoy playing and no one really cares what you sound like, at least until you start demanding payment.

FOSSIL · by **FOSSIL** » 2021-01-24 7:00 a.m.

[quote="Kingfan"]<QUOTE author="Doug Elliott" post_id="138329" time="1611437627" user_id="51">
I know you think I don't get it, but I really do. I have some great simple ways to get started, if you're interested.[/quote]

So far today I started to look up an old bandmate who did what I'm trying to do many years ago. I can't remember his name, but have feelers out. I checked with three local colleges, one has the New Horizon program with a jazz band and I'm waiting on them to get back to me. I've got an idea or two of things I can do starting tomorrow. That said, I'm very interested to know what great simple steps you would suggest. I'm scared, but I'm not giving up (yet).
</QUOTE>

I think what Doug is saying is that you can buy some personal time with him....it's sort of called a lesson and it's how (one way) Doug earns his living. We should all respect that.

Chris

Kingfan · by **Kingfan** » 2021-01-24 10:47 a.m.

[quote="FOSSIL"]<QUOTE author="Kingfan" post_id="138336" time="1611445667" user_id="3053">

So far today I started to look up an old bandmate who did what I'm trying to do many years ago. I can't remember his name, but have feelers out. I checked with three local colleges, one has the New Horizon program with a jazz band and I'm waiting on them to get back to me. I've got an idea or two of things I can do starting tomorrow. That said, I'm very interested to know what great simple steps you would suggest. I'm scared, but I'm not giving up (yet).[/quote]

I think what Doug is saying is that you can buy some personal time with him....it's sort of called a lesson and it's how (one way) Doug earns his living. We should all respect that.

Chris
</QUOTE>

I've had a Skype lesson with him in the past, that is how I found the "perfect" mouthpiece for me. Great guy!

FOSSIL · by **FOSSIL** » 2021-01-24 11:13 a.m.

Ah ! Well you'll trust him over improvising then.

I've had a personal project in lockdown to improve my improvisation abilities...I nearly said skills, but they don't qualify as skills. A lot of playing along to backing tracks of standards...getting used to the tunes...lots of repetition, and I mean lots. It's been nice to open that door a crack and I have just tried to feel my way around the melodies and have a bit of fun with them. Trying not to think too hard...just listen..and listen...and listen.

Relax and enjoy...nobody's listening to you listening .

Chris

Doug_Elliott · by **Doug_Elliott** » 2021-01-24 2:14 p.m.

I'll give you a little free time... Contact me

BGuttman · by **BGuttman** » 2021-01-24 2:23 p.m.

Just remember. The great improvisers of the past did not say "Oh. This is a Gb minor 7 sus chord so I need to play a flat Bb here.". They developed a feel for the tune including chords by sound. That's learned by practice, familiarization with the head, and a lot of listening to good practitioners.

Try not to be too academic.

ithinknot · 2021-01-24 2:44 p.m.

[quote="BGuttman"]The great improvisers of the past did not say "Oh. This is a ...[/quote]

Plenty of them did.

It's not one or the other. It all helps.

Removing 'theory' from the equation doesn't necessarily make improvising more accessible - it's substituting one form of perceived mystery or insecurity (superhuman chord scientists!) for another (magic ears, magic instinct!).

You should want to know which notes are in the chord AND how they feel, and you can.

Kingfan · by **Kingfan** » 2021-01-24 2:45 p.m.

[quote="Doug Elliott"]I'll give you a little free time... Contact me[/quote]
Pm sent.

Bach5G · by **Bach5G** » 2021-01-24 3:00 p.m.

[quote="BGuttman"]Just remember. The great improvisers of the past did not say "Oh. This is a Gb minor 7 sus chord so I need to play a flat Bb here.". They developed a feel for the tune including chords by sound. That's learned by practice, familiarization with the head, and a lot of listening to good practitioners.

Try not to be too academic.[/quote]

According to a local heavy hitter, head/heart is 60/40 or 40/60. It varies.

johntarr · by **johntarr** » 2021-01-24 4:16 p.m.

[quote="Kingfan"]<QUOTE author="Doug Elliott" post_id="138329" time="1611437627" user_id="51">
I know you think I don't get it, but I really do. I have some great simple ways to get started, if you're interested.[/quote]

I'm still looking at a variety of ways to take that first step. What are your ideas on great simple ways to get started?
</QUOTE>

There has been some interesting research on learning and memory that shows that if a beginner starts by reading notation, they will have a harder time developing their auditory memory. Those of us who started as readers may have some extra hurdles to overcome when learning to improvise. It’s already been said, but the very first step would be to play what you know, simple melodies in different keys after singing them. Learn to play whatever you need to get started. Sing one note and then find it on your horn. Then sing two notes and after that “Hot Crossed Buns.” There is no shame in starting where you are. In fact, it’s the only place you can start. At the same time, listening to jazz masters can help you start hearing the language.

Part of the problem with jazz education, as Doug said, is that there’s so much material and well meaning educators are saying things like, “you need to practice all these scales, chords, guide tones, approach notes, pentatonic scales, tritone substitution and on and on so that it’s just too daunting.

Doug_Elliott · by **Doug_Elliott** » 2021-01-24 5:43 p.m.

"Those of us who started as readers may have some extra hurdles to overcome when learning to improvise."

That is pretty good justification for starting beginners BOTH reading and with some emphasis on playing by ear, or at least ear training to some degree. Think of the beginners who write positions over every note and don't ever really learn anything because they're not reading OR using their ears .

Kingfan · by **Kingfan** » 2021-01-24 7:33 p.m.

My niece started on alto in 5th grade band. She started private lessons with a teacher who also played guitar and got her started on both reading fundamentals and playing by ear. She went on to learn from a sax teacher who straddled the "serious" and jazz worlds well. Lucky girl.

harrisonreed · by **harrisonreed** » 2021-01-24 9:03 p.m.

"serious sax music" :???:

<YOUTUBE id="A1dY6OkPb7E">~~[media]~~https://youtu.be/A1dY6OkPb7E</YOUTUBE>

<YOUTUBE id="7P6QYWqRxww">~~[media]~~https://youtu.be/7P6QYWqRxww</YOUTUBE>

Especially at 1:35 in the Kenny G one! The way he resolves his musical message at 1:45 is what I live for! The more times I listen to 1:35-1:46, the more right it sounds.

:biggrin:

Posaunus · by **Posaunus** » 2021-01-24 11:09 p.m.

[quote="harrisonreed"]"serious sax music"[/quote]

Can't tell you what sax music does to me. At least, not on a public forum! :horror:

quiethorn · by **quiethorn** » 2021-01-25 3:28 a.m.

Percussionist Jamey Haddad once said something like, "Find the 1 or 2 things that you can natively do really well and build on that."

So when you pick up the horn and just start noodling around, what comes out? Not when you're trying to sound like so-and-so or trying to copy some cool licks, but when you're just playing what feels good and natural. If you can find that, you can build on it. Play what feels good, not what sounds good. Eventually, what feels good will start sounding good.

There's lots of good advice in this thread, but you've been at this for 40 years, so you've obviously tried a bunch of this stuff. So here's something different from the book "Zen Flesh, Zen Bones", a story called "One Note of Zen". I've trimmed it way down.

"Kakua visited China and accepted the true teaching. The emperor heard about Kakua when he returned to Japan and asked him to preach Zen for his edification and that of his subjects. Kakua stood before the emperor in silence. He then produced a flute from the folds of his robe and blew one short note. Bowing politely, he disappeared."

Next time you have a 16-bar solo, see if you can limit yourself to just one short note. I guarantee you'll get more smiles than the sax player playing as many notes as he can or the trumpet player playing as high as he can. If you make this your regular schtick but just move around the placement of the note each time, every time you stand up for your solo, everyone will perk up in anticipation of when you're gonna play the note. The rhythm section might even actually listen to you and try to predict when you're gonna hit your note so they can do it with you. Play your note, take a bow, and disappear.

Pro tip for a sarcastic solo: a 12-bar blues has 12 bars. A chromatic scale has 12 notes. A descending or ascending chromatic scale fits perfectly if you play one pitch per bar. If there is a God, surely he designed things this way.

My trombone teacher in high school (now a well-known bass trombone player) told me at my first lesson, "We want every sound we make when we perform to be beautiful, so when we practice, we have to make sure all our sounds are also beautiful" or some such nonsense.

A few months later, he literally laughed at me as I struggled to get through a challenging bass trombone solo he had me working on. So I quit lessons and decided his advice about sounding "beautiful" was also probably stupid. As I matured, I realized I was right... that you can't grow unless you're first willing to sound like absolute shit and do sound like absolute shit for a time.

Anyway, maybe this isn't useful. I just think if it's your fear of sounding "good" that's holding you back, then commit to not sounding "good" and do something else. It's supposed to be fun.

Redthunder · by **Redthunder** » 2021-01-25 10:16 a.m.

[quote="johntarr"]

There has been some interesting research on learning and memory that shows that if a beginner starts by reading notation, they will have a harder time developing their auditory memory.[/quote]

This is absolutely correct. Music is like language in this regard because children spend years absorbing, processing, babbling, imitating, and ultimately speaking full intelligible sentences long before they are ever given a book to try and learn to read from. And yet in most traditional models of instrumental music education, students (both children and adults) are tasked with learning to hold a new object, produce a sound, manipulate the keys or slide, AND read notation, simultaneously. The kids that tend to do well with this are almost always the ones that had a decent amount of exposure to music in advance from parents or some other place, and for everyone else, it's an uphill battle.

but the very first step would be to play what you know, simple melodies in different keys after singing them.

Yes, yes, and yes. This cannot be overstated enough. Too many people become discouraged because they are expected to begin with transcribing complicated jazz solos, without the appropriate pre-requisites of having built a strong aural skills foundation by using what you already know as a guide. It's the same problem as mentioned above, tasking yourself with too many unfamiliar things at the same time. I've been there.

baileyman · by **baileyman** » 2021-01-25 10:40 a.m.

[quote="ithinknot"]... busk along with the tv...[/quote]

His kids would be watching tv in the afternoon and The Flintstones would come on. He would rush out of the bathroom, then Carl Fontana would get, what?, 64 bars of rhythm changes then head back to practice some more.

jbeatenbough · by **jbeatenbough** » 2021-01-25 11:37 a.m.

[quote="Doug Elliott"]I know you think I don't get it, but I really do. I have some great simple ways to get started, if you're interested.[/quote]

I'm interested!!

I had no idea that there were so many decent trombone players that are in the same boat I'm in. Having played for years and in some areas are pretty damn good, but when it is time to improvise...suck! I totally believe the biggest secret is to become one with the horn. I can whistle or sing the hell out of an improvised solo...I just can't play it and that recognition and the fear that goes along with it has been building for years on end.

This thread is so far the most inspiring I've seen yet on this board!

Next? I want to hear some stories from some folks that were once in the boat we (several of us in this topic) are in, but, after applying one/some/all of the recommended learning approaches have managed to get off the boat and onto paradise island.

To those in the boat with me... let's make an agreement...minimum of 3 hrs/week of trying to play along with something (many suggestions already made to us for things to play along with - pick one). Any takers?

MagnumH · by **MagnumH** » 2021-01-25 3:15 p.m.

One book that was thoroughly recommended to me is "Developing Musicianship Through Improvisation" by Christopher D. Azzara and Richard F. Grunow, both of whom are professors at Eastman (and the book was recommended by Mark Kellogg, one of the Eastman trombone professors). It follows a lot of the doctrine already suggested here, including starting with walking bass lines and playing the triads over the changes, leading up through playing streams of 8ths (not attempting to be musical, just as an exercise in staying On Mode), and up to developing your improv. from there. Whilst I haven't bought the book myself as yet, I've worked through some of the exercises and ideas with Prof. Kellogg and they're SUPER helpful.

For example, making up and playing simple bass lines is the BEST way to begin training yourself to "hear" and to "feel" the chord changes and the structure of the song, and it also gives you a "safe spot" to return to when you are improvising.

MagnumH · by **MagnumH** » 2021-01-25 3:16 p.m.

Also, lessons with understanding pros should not be undervalued. Doug Elliott of course is a top choice, and Neo Bri (also a user on this forum) is another specialist in this area.

Bach5G · 2021-01-25 3:35 p.m.

Some technology that can help:

1 IReal Pro - changes to tunes, but also exercises, such as simple blues, ii-Vs, etc. Phone app. Pair it with your Bluetooth speaker.

2. Band in a Box. At its simplest level, put in the changes you want to work on, press go.

3. Transcription apps: Amazing Slow Downer, Transcribe! and Transcribe+. Slow down and loop sections of music.

4. Sher published The Real Easy Book (or maybe the Easy Real Book). Easier jazz tunes for beginning improvisers.

Doug_Elliott · by **Doug_Elliott** » 2021-01-25 3:46 p.m.

Walking bass lines are great... But not a place to "start."

You guys are inspiring me to write out some of my ideas about how to really start from absolutely nothing.

imsevimse · by **imsevimse** » 2021-01-25 5:11 p.m.

[quote="Doug Elliott"]Walking bass lines are great... But not a place to "start."

You guys are inspiring me to write out some of my ideas about how to really start from absolutely nothing.[/quote]

That's really interesting. I'm looking forward to this. One thing I've asked many good improvisers (saxplayers and trumpeters over here) is what they are thinking at the exact moment when they are improvising. Where are their thoughts? Noone has ever answered that question. Most look at me very suspicious and start to tell me how to prepare instead. Learn scales and patterns and transcribe solos, listen and play from your heart. Noone wants or can tell what the thoughts are in the moment when the solo is played.

/Tom

Kingfan · by **Kingfan** » 2021-01-25 5:17 p.m.

[quote="Doug Elliott"]Walking bass lines are great... But not a place to "start."

You guys are inspiring me to write out some of my ideas about how to really start from absolutely nothing.[/quote]

DO IT!!!!

Doug_Elliott · by **Doug_Elliott** » 2021-01-25 5:35 p.m.

I used to ask players the same thing.

The truth is, it's sort of a stream of consciousness kind of thing based on everything you know, have prepared, and responding to what you're hearing. More or less just thinking "how do I get through this"

If you haven't done your homework, it's going to sound like a bad translation from a foreign language, with words strung together that don't make any sense.

FOSSIL · by **FOSSIL** » 2021-01-25 6:28 p.m.

[quote="Doug Elliott"]I used to ask players the same thing.

The truth is, it's sort of a stream of consciousness kind of thing based on everything you know, have prepared, and responding to what you're hearing. More or less just thinking "how do I get through this"

If you haven't done your homework, it's going to sound like a bad translation from a foreign language, with words strung together that don't make any sense.[/quote]

Brilliant...just brilliant.

Chris

Jimprindle · by **Jimprindle** » 2021-01-25 6:37 p.m.

As a bass trombonist, I am not usually called upon to improvise. But have learned the situation to figure it out.

More than 50 years ago, in college, I was the only trombone player in a group that was hired to play what we used to call “businessman‘s bounce.” Background music at hotel lunches. We sometimes had lead sheets from hit songs, popular movies or musicals, and each of the musicians usually (about six) had to be able to do at least 16 bars of improv on top of that. Nobody was listening, but the experience of having to play out of my head just listening to the rhythm section helped me a lot.

Later I fell into a Dixieland group and also a Tijuana brass group. Again, just by listening to the rhythm section and the other players I made it up on my own. But probably the most successful attempt at improvising for me was late nights in my college music department jamming with people on everything from Miles Davis to blues. Especially blues. Chords are simple and you can make up whatever you want and everybody likes it.

I still do not like improvising in front of an audience, but hanging out and jamming with your friends in a good rhythm section is really the best way to learn how to make up your own songs. And of course, listening, listening, listening to lots of styles and players. Not just trombonists.

imsevimse · by **imsevimse** » 2021-01-25 7:45 p.m.

[quote="Doug Elliott"]I used to ask players the same thing.

The truth is, it's sort of a stream of consciousness kind of thing based on everything you know, have prepared, and responding to what you're hearing. More or less just thinking "how do I get through this"

If you haven't done your homework, it's going to sound like a bad translation from a foreign language, with words strung together that don't make any sense.[/quote]

Makes sense. Then to be absolutely 'blank' and not remember what happened might not be a bad thing. The difference is in the preparation. If you spent all your time playing triads your solos will contain triads. If you have spent time on scales the solo will contain scales. If you spend time on playing without listening your solos will also be like that. It will consist of everything you spent time on. Just let loose.

/Tom

johntarr · by **johntarr** » 2021-01-26 1:55 a.m.

Another aspect of this question is cultivating and developing the mindset for learning. As has been written above, the need for ear training, language and technique is very important. However, a fear based approach will hamper even the best learning programs.

A book by jazz pianist, Kenny Werner called, “Effortless Mastery” addresses this topic very thoroughly. He invites, or sometimes chides the reader to consider the idea of learning to get her/his ego out of the way. This too is something that needs to be practiced, just like scales and arpeggios.

Splendour · by **Splendour** » 2021-01-26 5:22 a.m.

[quote="Savio"]I'm definitely not an expert here, but I also think it has a lot to do with being brave enough to just trying. I teach a lot of kids and they seem to be more brave than me.[/quote] Back in 2019 I went to Rath Day organized by Rath Trombones. There was a variety of mass playing, performances, and features, including a half hour introduction to improvisation from Robbie Harvey. When he asked for a volunteer from the audience there was a couple of seconds nervous silence from the crowd until one of us was brave enough to step up and play with him - a 12 year old.

Robbie was really good at explaining what he was doing, initially just playing short three or four note phrases and having the young lad play them back, call and response style, then mixing up the order the phrases were played in. Simple stuff, but effective. By the end of 30 minutes I was kicking myself for not having stepped up despite having no previous experience of improvisation.

Since then I've been trying to play along by ear with a variety of jazz and blues from time to time and have got to the stage where I no longer wince most of the time when I listen to a recording of myself.

johntarr · by **johntarr** » 2021-01-26 6:01 a.m.

One project that I’ve found very useful is to break up dominant scales into three note bits and make riffs out of them. For the Bb blues, practice 3-4-5 and its various combinations on all the three chords. This also trains hearing the third. Then 5-6-b7 and b7-8-9. Once you are comfortable with those you can combine them. 5-6-b7 on Bb resolving the Ab to the G in the Eb chord and playing 3-4-5. In this way you can build simple lines that connect the important notes of the chords.

jbeatenbough · by **jbeatenbough** » 2021-01-26 12:27 p.m.

For a great example of what by ear learning can do, browse youtube for Sant Andreu Jazz Band and Joan Chamorro...listen to what he has these kids playing...totally amazing. It is really something to see kids age 7 to 20 playing along with the likes of Wycliffe Gordon and Scott Hamilton.

"Joan is “old school” and believes that starting a youngster’s musical education by teaching scales and to read music is too mechanical. He believes that it is more important for a novice to learn what a given note will sound like than to know how to read the note. He therefore focuses on connecting his students to the music by having them listen to the music they will play so they can hear what it sounds like."

Wilktone · by **Wilktone** » 2021-01-26 12:59 p.m.

Very interesting conversation here, with lots of great advice. My two cents, however, is that there's so much involved in learning to improvisation that there's too much information out there and this can inhibit our improvement. In many ways, learning to improvise is like learning to juggle. Here are a couple of similarities.

First, you need to work to get over not sounding good. Jugglers have an expression, if you're not dropping you're not learning. If you want to improve in your improvisation, you need to figure out where your limitations are and push at them. We tend to practice things we already can do well, which is fun but not very conducive to improvement. It's also possible to practice too much at once (see below) and end up spinning our wheels a lot. We tend to learn best when we work on things that we can almost, but not quite, do well and work to correct those things with attainable short-term goals.

The other way learning to improvise is like juggling is that both are like eating an elephant. You can't gulp it down all at once, you need to eat it one bite at a time. When first learning to juggle you start off tossing one ball back and forth between your hands, then gradually add more balls until you're actually juggling. With improvisation you need to start with one topic and make sure you're comfortable with that before you move on. When working on that single topic you have to expect that you're going to be dropping some "balls." That's OK, because you'll come back to those other topics later.

I mentioned Hal Crook's "How To Improvise: An Approach To Practicing Improvisation" in this thread earlier. I prefer to start my students off with improvisation the same way Crook recommends, with what he calls "Pacing." The general idea of this topic is to stop playing so much and allow silences to happen in your improvisations. This concept forms the basis for the rest of the topics in his book. By using a "play/rest" approach while practicing you are giving yourself a chance to evaluate what you just played and think about what's coming up and what you need to do. Here's Crook's basic practice routine for working on this topic for a hypothetical 1 hour practice session:

Choose a mode of practice - playing along with a single chord, playing along on a tune progression, playing along with no harmonic progression (you can use accompaniment play-a-longs, another player, just a metronome, or no accompaniment).

10 minutes - the general idea of pacing, using silence in your improvisation

30 minutes - specific exercises that force yourself to play and rest.

1. Even bar play/rest combinations (play for 4 rest for 4, 1 and 1, 2 and 2, 1 and 3, 3 and 1, 2 and 6, 6 and 2, etc.)

2. Odd bar play/rest combinations (play for 1 rest for 2, 2 and 1, 3 and 2, 2 and 3, 4 and 1, 1 and 4, etc.)

10 minutes - back to the general idea

10 minutes - forget what you just practiced and just jam, let the spirit and the mood of the music take you where you want to go

Record yourself for evaluation. It's a good idea to occasionally transcribe your own solos and learn to play them. It gives you a chance to actually fix some of the mistakes. And sometimes your mistakes will be more creative than what you meant to play. Assimilate how silence in your improvisations can be used for musical effect.

After some time spent on this single topic you'll feel comfortable enough with the concept of pacing that you can start working on new topics while still giving yourself those moments of silence to think about what you just played and what you're about to play. The "Pacing ball" will be natural to you and you won't drop it when thinking about chord tones or rhythmic density or phrase lengths or whatever other topic you're working on.

[quote="jbeatenbough"]"Joan is “old school” and believes that starting a youngster’s musical education by teaching scales and to read music is too mechanical. He believes that it is more important for a novice to learn what a given note will sound like than to know how to read the note. He therefore focuses on connecting his students to the music by having them listen to the music they will play so they can hear what it sounds like."[/quote]

That's pretty much standard practice for elementary music these days, "sound before sight." It's not how I was taught back in the day, but it's how I teach my young students now.

[quote="johntarr"]A book by jazz pianist, Kenny Werner called, “Effortless Mastery” addresses this topic very thoroughly. He invites, or sometimes chides the reader to consider the idea of learning to get her/his ego out of the way. This too is something that needs to be practiced, just like scales and arpeggios.[/quote]

That's a good book, and it mirrors Hal Crook's approach. I've lost my copy years ago, but as I recall Werner suggests breaking things up into different topics and removing your focus on certain things so that you can concentrate (in part) on making your playing feel effortless. For example, you remove time feel and note accuracy from your focus so you can concentrate of playing in a relaxed way, then gradually add something back and remove something else to keep your focus on one topic (plus playing in a relaxed way) at a time.

My last thought for now is that if you're a relative beginner with improvisation it's really helpful to get a teacher (or even just a peer) to help evaluate and prioritize what you want to practice. Can you imagine trying to learn how to play excellent symphonic trombone just from books and recordings? You need someone to help you find those topics that you need to improve first on and give you suggestions for how to go about that. Just like orchestral trombone playing, it's not always the best players who are best able to help relative beginners, so seek out a teacher who you is able to break things down into what you need. Some teachers may be great if you've got a bit of experience under your belt, but not so great if you're new to it.

Dave

Bach5G · by **Bach5G** » 2021-01-26 2:39 p.m.

“ ... remove time feel and note accuracy from your focus...”

I hear a fair amount of that in trombone solos.

Pre59 · by **Pre59** » 2021-01-26 2:48 p.m.

Get some jazz education video material, for beautifully bite sized lessons, You don't have to be guitarist or pianist to understand it all in the early stages.

"The Power of the Major Scale"

<LINK_TEXT text="https://www.jazzguitar.be/forum/improvi ... scale.html">https://www.jazzguitar.be/forum/improvisation/78279-jimmy-bruno-power-major-scale.html</LINK_TEXT>

johntarr · by **johntarr** » 2021-01-26 3:04 p.m.

[quote="Wilktone"]Very interesting conversation here, with lots of great advice. My two cents, however, is that there's so much involved in learning to improvisation that there's too much information out there and this can inhibit our improvement. In many ways, learning to improvise is like learning to juggle. Here are a couple of similarities.

...

My last thought for now is that if you're a relative beginner with improvisation it's really helpful to get a teacher (or even just a peer) to help evaluate and prioritize what you want to practice. Can you imagine trying to learn how to play excellent symphonic trombone just from books and recordings? You need someone to help you find those topics that you need to improve first on and give you suggestions for how to go about that. Just like orchestral trombone playing, it's not always the best players who are best able to help relative beginners, so seek out a teacher who you is able to break things down into what you need. Some teachers may be great if you've got a bit of experience under your belt, but not so great if you're new to it.

Dave[/quote]
Thanks Dave, for such a thoughtful and informative post!

Savio · by **Savio** » 2021-01-26 4:25 p.m.

I think I could do the "learn to improvise" part, the "so I don't suck" part is the problem. Ok just a joke but there is some truth to it. How about creativity, its like composing on the fly? And doing a good composition? I did listen to J.J Johnson, it sounds so natural and easy. Like it couldnt be any different. Must be some talent too?

Leif

ArbanRubank · by **ArbanRubank** » 2021-01-26 6:25 p.m.

Perhaps it's time for us to watch "The Music Man" again to see how it's done. But I don't think we should then pick up our horns and try to improv on Desafinado! :lol:

Bach5G · by **Bach5G** » 2021-01-26 7:27 p.m.

This showed up in my email this morning. It’s from Mike Lake and it’s about starting to improvise.

<VIMEO id="500169114">https://vimeo.com/500169114/7ec7c98cf4</VIMEO>

imsevimse · by **imsevimse** » 2021-01-27 1:49 a.m.

[quote="Bach5G"]This showed up in my email this morning. It’s from Mike Lake and it’s about starting to improvise.

<VIMEO id="500169114">https://vimeo.com/500169114/7ec7c98cf4</VIMEO>[/quote]

That videoclip was real good and it got me inspired.

There is one thing to this sentence "How do I learn to improvise so I don't suck?" that we haven't discussed at all and thats what it really means? "...so I don't suck? Is it aimed at the audience or at me who is the improviser? Is it based on thoughts I have about the demands that the audience may have?

I think the healthiest is to focus on the "I" in this case. It is I as a player who do not want to feel bad. I should not focus on the audience and what they think. I must play the way I want and that may result in the audience do not want to hear me. When we improvise the "I" is what is important. If nobody likes it you will not have the opportunity to play much in public but you can still be successful in your studio.

I remember in my teens when I studied and was in the same band as a player that was going to be one of the most well regarded improvisers on the saxophone over here. He took a lot of solos back then. The band director let him play as much as he wanted and I remember I thought it all "sucked". It just repeated itself over and over and left me exhausted and drained of life itself. I really did not like it. It was the same with a couple of other guys, but they never got passed theat stage and are not heard of.

I myself could not play a solo at that time and did not have the guts to even try but he did. About five years later he was the star of the town and now another 25 years later he is one of the most sought after players and last I checked he has done several solo recordings. He did play what he wanted to play, and that was what was important at the time. Later he just evolved and took off. He never played what he thought the audience would like to hear. Never did

/Tom

ArbanRubank · by **ArbanRubank** » 2021-01-27 8:30 a.m.

[quote="Bach5G"]This showed up in my email this morning. It’s from Mike Lake and it’s about starting to improvise.

<VIMEO id="500169114">https://vimeo.com/500169114/7ec7c98cf4</VIMEO>[/quote]

And right on queue!

Get the notes from the head to the horn via the voice (at first), keep it simple and melodic to start with. Perfect!

However, unlike in the movie "The Music Man", advocating "The Think System", I believe he assumes all the homework advocated by others on playing scales, intervals, chords, ear-training, etc has already been done.

Last evening, I set up my Band-in-a-Box to cycle through ballads a number of times, each time separated by a virtual soloist for 16 bars. The first time through, I played the melody pretty straight-forward to acquaint myself with it's pattern. The second time through, I actually stood up and moved in front of my station, as though stepping up to play a solo in a real setting. Without any music, I tried to make a nice solo, based on what I could remember of the melody line and it's rhythmic pattern, listening to the chord progressions in the backing track. Then I sat back down for the third pass to play the melody line again, but this time trying to embellish it with what I learned from playing through it and listening to everything the first two times. Interesting! On some, I did well. On others, not so much. It seems, some melodies and chord progressions are "easier" than others. It's a start.

baileyman · by **baileyman** » 2021-01-27 9:00 a.m.

[quote="Bach5G"]“ ... remove time feel and note accuracy from your focus...”

I hear a fair amount of that in trombone solos.[/quote]

Yup. A maniacal focus on time feel seems like job one, no matter how one breaks up the rest of it for practice. It's funny/distressing even doing quarter notes at a bounce tempo how after 8 to 12 of them suddenly the time has gone. How the heck?

Max Bennett answered to me, How do you start a young bass player? Single note quarter notes on a metronome, usually for weeks. Time is everything.

Wilktone · by **Wilktone** » 2021-01-27 9:07 p.m.

[quote="Bach5G"]“ ... remove time feel and note accuracy from your focus...”

I hear a fair amount of that in trombone solos.[/quote]

So I know you're only half-serious (I think), but I want to point out that there's a huge difference between how you practice and how you perform. The point Hall Crook and Kenny Werner (and by extension, me) are making is that when you are first working on new topics that you can't already play you need to expect some other things to also suffer while you split your attention. That's fine, you'll spend time working to improve those in your practice later.

[quote="Pre59"]Get some jazz education video material, for beautifully bite sized lessons, You don't have to be guitarist or pianist to understand it all in the early stages.

"The Power of the Major Scale"

<LINK_TEXT text="https://www.jazzguitar.be/forum/improvi ... scale.html">https://www.jazzguitar.be/forum/improvisation/78279-jimmy-bruno-power-major-scale.html</LINK_TEXT>[/quote]

Right, it's the same 12 notes.

[quote="Savio"]I think I could do the "learn to improvise" part, the "so I don't suck" part is the problem. Ok just a joke but there is some truth to it. How about creativity, its like composing on the fly? And doing a good composition? I did listen to J.J Johnson, it sounds so natural and easy. Like it couldnt be any different. Must be some talent too?[/quote]

Sure, talent has something to do with it. Also perseverance and hard work. As far as "composing on the fly," this is an accurate depiction of improvisation, but you might also consider that learning to improvise shares a lot more in common with learning to sight read well.

You can get better at sight reading by just sight reading a lot, but if you don't go back and fix the mistakes you make you're not going to improve at sight reading as quickly. Sight reading well involves learning how to play those melodic, harmonic, and rhythmic patterns correctly so that when you see that pattern again you know how to play it accurately. Improvisation is similar, yet like with sight reading it's easy to get into just doing a lot of it in performance mode. You've got to practice fixing your mistakes. This is why I suggested recording yourself improvising and then transcribing what you played. You then get the opportunity to practice fixing your mistakes and learning to play what you meant to play.

[quote="Bach5G"]This showed up in my email this morning. It’s from Mike Lake and it’s about starting to improvise.

<VIMEO id="500169114">https://vimeo.com/500169114/7ec7c98cf4</VIMEO>[/quote]

Good stuff in there. I might quibble with some details for raw beginners, but like what ArbanRubank said, I think he's presuming that you've done some of your homework. Note the difference between Mike Lake's example of using a scale to improvise (as an example of what NOT to do) compared to the jazz guitar one from early. Essentially the same exercise, but the guitarist demonstrates how to use the notes of the major scale to great musical effect and Lake demonstrates (on purpose) the way beginners often approach it.

When practicing a topic, such as scale/chord relationships, you should strive to really explore that idea. When you've reach the point of where you can improvise expressively over just a major scale, then you know that those sounds will be available to you when you are letting your inner ear dictate where you should go. Restriction (in practice) is actually quite liberating.

[quote="baileyman"]A maniacal focus on time feel seems like job one, no matter how one breaks up the rest of it for practice.[/quote]

I agree. It's one of the first topics in Hal Crook's book and he essentially says the same thing. I still agree with Crook that learning the pacing (play/rest) is a better way to start. It's very helpful when working on any other concept, including time feel, to be able to comfortably stop playing and do some self evaluation and prep yourself for what's about to come up.

Bach5G · by **Bach5G** » 2021-01-27 11:27 p.m.

I completed my first transcription in quite a while today: Chet Baker’s 16 bar scat solo in It Could Happen to You. It was assigned by my guitar teacher. Not a crazy amount of notes but Chet’s pitch and time called for a bit of interpretation occasionally.

I used an phone app called Transcribe+. Remarkable technology and, frankly, not very expensive. In some respects it was easier than I expected. I certainly can see the value in doing this on a regular basis. This would make a good retirement project.

baileyman · by **baileyman** » 2021-01-28 9:53 a.m.

[quote="Wilktone"]...

<QUOTE author="baileyman" post_id="138699" time="1611756019" user_id="160">
A maniacal focus on time feel seems like job one, no matter how one breaks up the rest of it for practice.[/quote]

I agree. It's one of the first topics in Hal Crook's book and he essentially says the same thing. I still agree with Crook that learning the pacing (play/rest) is a better way to start. It's very helpful when working on any other concept, including time feel, to be able to comfortably stop playing and do some self evaluation and prep yourself for what's about to come up.
</QUOTE>

If I recall Hal's play/rest included exercises like, play two measures, rest two, repeat, and every variation on that idea, like, play one, rest three, play two beats, rest six, whatever, but all this in time, so the rest is also in time. Play the rests, they're music, too.

He also does a time stretching exercise, but it sure seems worthwhile to first be recognized for having strong time feel before messing around with something that otherwise sounds like a big error. Most tromboners start on time, time stretch for four, take a breath, then start the next four on time, etc.

mlshermancpa · by **mlshermancpa** » 2021-01-28 6:06 p.m.

[quote="Doug Elliott"]LOTS of great information here.

Speaking of Frank Sinatra... LISTEN to what he does with melodies ... especially rhythmically. Listen, don't just hear.

When you're learning improvising, don't try to be Watrous or Fontana, try to be Sinatra. Make melodies that fit, the simpler the better.[/quote]

I met Watrous at NAMM one year and he told me the same thing about improvising. He said "just play pretty melodies".

Bach5G · by **Bach5G** » 2021-01-28 6:30 p.m.

When did Bill Watrous just play pretty melodies?

BGuttman · by **BGuttman** » 2021-01-28 7:53 p.m.

[quote="Bach5G"]When did Bill Watrous just play pretty melodies?[/quote]

You aren't going to start improvising like Bill Watrous. You start simply and evolve.

Doug_Elliott · by **Doug_Elliott** » 2021-01-28 9:22 p.m.

His very first album, titled William Russell Watrous.

I haven't checked YouTube but some of it is probably there.

Here:

<YOUTUBE id="t2Irj9_vlAs">https://youtu.be/t2Irj9_vlAs</YOUTUBE> (Side 1)

<YOUTUBE id="km4hFm0OK9s">https://youtu.be/km4hFm0OK9s</YOUTUBE> (Side 2)

Back then records were recorded on both sides.....

Mostly just playing the tunes, with strings. Similar to the albums Urbie was putting out at about the same time. I was heavily influenced by both.

BGuttman · by **BGuttman** » 2021-01-28 9:54 p.m.

Good models to emulate, Doug.

He really plays close to the melody on the tunes. Just little things here and there. This is a good way to get your feet wet without sounding like you are lost or have no clue what you are doing.

harrisonreed · by **harrisonreed** » 2021-01-29 1:28 a.m.

<YOUTUBE id="RT5FrYz7RtI">~~[media]~~https://youtu.be/RT5FrYz7RtI</YOUTUBE>

<ATTACHMENT filename="Mematic_meme_20210129_152732.jpg" index="0">~~[attachment=0]~~Mematic_meme_20210129_152732.jpg</ATTACHMENT>

Wilktone · by **Wilktone** » 2021-01-29 9:22 a.m.

[quote="baileyman"]If I recall Hal's play/rest included exercises like, play two measures, rest two, repeat, and every variation on that idea, like, play one, rest three, play two beats, rest six, whatever, but all this in time, so the rest is also in time. Play the rests, they're music, too.[/quote]

Yes! But again, just to make sure Crook's point is clear, you're not focused on playing perfectly in time (or worrying about note choices or rhythmic variety, etc.) while working on the "pacing" exercises, you're only concerned with play/rest. If you're practicing some really odd play/rest patterns it's going to be easy to get lost in the form or loose track of the time, etc. That's ok. You'll spend time next week (or whenever) working on that topic.

He also does a time stretching exercise, but it sure seems worthwhile to first be recognized for having strong time feel before messing around with something that otherwise sounds like a big error. Most tromboners start on time, time stretch for four, take a breath, then start the next four on time, etc.

"Stretching the Time" is the first topic in Section II of Crook's "How To Improvise" book. In Section I he has the topic "Time Feel." In addition to practicing the general idea of putting all rhythms perfectly in the pocket of the groove, he has exercises that eliminate other aspects of improvisation so you can more easily put your attention on the time feel.

"Time Feel Exercise #1: Swing Feel, Accents, Syncopation (without chords)

With a single note, play repeated attacks in tempo using consecutive 'swing' 8th notes only . . . Use the play/rest approach, vary the phrase lengths. Repeat with downbeat accents only. . . Repeat applying only ubeat accents. . . Repeat applying a random mixture of accents. . . .Repeat adding syncopated rhythms. . . Repeat using 2 different notes, chord arpeggios, and conventional 7-note scales."

The bold emphasis above is mine, to reiterate that resting while you're practicing is not only to add musical variety to your improvisations, but also to give you a chance to think about what you just played and evaluate how well you did it. Then you think about what's coming up and how to play it correctly.

[quote="Doug Elliott"]His very first album, titled William Russell Watrous.[/quote]

"Someplace Else," by Watrous with the Patrick Williams Orchestra is another one. A couple improvisations you'd expect from Watrous, but mostly just beautiful melodies. I haven't put that album on in a long time, but have it on right now. I remember noticing some spots in the record where Watrous is holding out some incredibly long phrases and you can hear him sniffing through his nose if you listen closely enough while circular breathing.

Learning to play strong melodies isn't just to give you something musical to play that is simpler than intricate bop lines. When you get down to the details of what makes a melody from a standard so expressive you'll find that the bop solos also have the same features, albeit with much more complex rhythms. Memorizing the melody of the tunes you're playing isn't just to play without music, it's so that you can internalize the melodic language of jazz.

Bach5G · by **Bach5G** » 2021-01-29 11:43 a.m.

Frank Vignola, jazz guitarist, advises that by the time you learn 200 tunes, you’ll have no trouble improvising.

Posaunus · by **Posaunus** » 2021-01-29 9:23 p.m.

[quote="Doug Elliott"]His very first album, titled William Russell Watrous.

Here:

<YOUTUBE id="t2Irj9_vlAs">https://youtu.be/t2Irj9_vlAs</YOUTUBE> (Side 1)

<YOUTUBE id="km4hFm0OK9s">https://youtu.be/km4hFm0OK9s</YOUTUBE> (Side 2)

Mostly just playing the tunes, with strings. Similar to the albums Urbie was putting out at about the same time. I was heavily influenced by both.[/quote]

Thanks to Trombone Keiji for posting this on YouTube. The LP album was never released on CD. But you can buy the vinyl on Amazon for a mere $99.95 (+ $3.99 shipping) !!

soseggnchips · by **soseggnchips** » 2021-02-01 4:45 a.m.

Here's a little improvisation exercise that I like. If you're interested in dipping your toe in the water, spend about 15 minutes a day on this for the next week and see how you get on:

Monday

Before your practice, find a backing track that is just a Dm7 chord vamping over and over. Aebersold, YouTube, Band-in-a-Box - any will do. Just make sure it's at a reasonable tempo.

For today, all you need to do is play one note against that backing track: D. This isn't a long tone exercise, though - you need to make it interesting. Try different rhythms, start in different parts of the bar. Play loud, play soft, use different articulations. Can you play something that is musical and interesting on just one note?

Tuesday

You're going to do the same thing again, but now you're going to add in a second note: F. As before, play along with the backing track, but now try creating simple patterns using F and D. Don't let your mind wander! Really listen to the sound of the notes you're playing. What does the D sound like against this chord? What does the F sound like? How does it sound going from D to F and F to D?

When your 15 minutes is up, put your trombone down. You're going to play your backing track one more time, but this time, you're going to sing the two notes you've just been playing. If you were paying attention, after listening to those two notes for 15 minutes they should be pretty well locked in your mind. Remember how they sounded against the chord, and sing some patterns using those notes. For this exercise, I suggest actually singing the names of the notes, rather than just a syllable like 'ah'.

Wednesday to Friday

On Wednesday, do the same again but now add the note G as well.

On Thursday, do the same, but add the note A.

On Friday, do the same, but add the note C.

Don't skip the singing part! This is about building your ear, not your muscle memory!

Saturday and Sunday

At this point, you should now have 5 notes you can play against the Dm7 chord: DFGAC. Crucially, if all's gone to plan, you shouldn't just 'know' you can play those notes, you should be starting to hear what each of them sounds like in relation to that chord.

If so, you can try flipping the process on its head: set your backing track going, but before picking up your trombone, sing a phrase using the notes you've been practicing. Start simply - a short phrase using 2 or 3 notes, not the full set of 5. Pick up your trombone, and play the phrase you've just sung. Did the notes match? If so, good! See if you can do it with a slightly longer or more complicated phrase. If not, don't worry - keep trying, simplifying your phrases if necessary.

At this stage, it's a good idea to start asking yourself some 'what if' questions:

What does it sound like if I put a chromatic note in between the D and the C? (D C# C or C C# D)

What do different groups of 3 sound like? (DFG? FGA? FDC? ADF?) How about groups of 4? (AGFD? GFDC?)

What does it sound like if I step into each of my 5 notes from a semitone below?

Be inquisitive! Improvisation is as much about exploring and finding sounds you like as it is about a fixed body of knowledge.

Review

So what have you been learning this past week? Technically, you've been working on using a D minor pentatonic scale against a Dmin7 chord. This isn't the 'jazziest' of scales, but it's functional and will sound good against that chord in a variety of contexts and styles. More fundamentally though, what you've been doing is training your brain with the sound of each note of that scale when played over that chord. If you continue down that path, you'll get to a point where you can hear a melody over that chord in your head, and know instantly what the notes are that you need to play.

Combine that with a good theoretical knowledge of chords and scales (e.g. the knowledge that a D minor pentatonic will work over a Dmin7 chord) and you have a two-pronged approach you can use: you know on an intellectual level what notes will work, but more than that, through experimentation and experience you develop an intuitive 'feel' for how different notes (and different patterns of notes) sound over a given chord.

So, where to go next?

You could repeat the whole process, but up a semitone (on Ebm7) - you'd then know all the chords to 'So What'. Here's a great J.J. Johnson version for inspiration: <YOUTUBE id="bN1HQhzOv0I">https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=bN1HQhzOv0I</YOUTUBE>

You could repeat the process but up a 4th (on Gm7) - you'd then be about halfway to being able to play a minor blues, or a standard like 'Summertime' (here's a nice Chet Baker recording to give you some ideas: <YOUTUBE id="b4yfJccwu2g">https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=b4yfJccwu2g)</YOUTUBE>

You could Google some stock ii-V7 licks in C (one of the most common jazz chord progressions) and try playing them over your Dm7 backing track to get a feel for how those patterns sound. Here's a basic one to get you started: DFAC BAGF.

You could repeat the process using the exact same notes but over an Fmaj7 chord. You'd then have a feel for playing over Fmaj7 and Dm7, and would be about halfway to being able to play over a turnaround - another standard jazz chord progression.

Final thoughts

The important thing to remember is that it will take time: you're training a mental facility that you've probably not had much use for in the past - it's like learning a new language. Take it slow, have fun and don't be afraid to experiment: remember that in improvisation the question is not 'is this right or wrong?' but 'do I like the way this sounds?' I'd also argue that jazz is like science: progress usually starts not with 'eureka!', but 'hmm... that's interesting'.

Anyway, a much longer post than I'd intended - I hope someone out there finds it useful!

Wilktone · by **Wilktone** » 2021-02-02 3:50 p.m.

That's a great first post, soseggnchips! I think it's very useful.

The only thing I'd add is to reiterate something that I mentioned in one of my earlier posts. It's important to spend a little time just jamming too, just letting your ear and mood be your guide. It probably shouldn't be most of your practice time, but since that's our goal when performing it's a process that we should practice too.

Dave

Bach5G · by **Bach5G** » 2021-02-03 4:49 p.m.

I am listening to Steve Davis on my Alexa. Eminently transcribable.

soseggnchips · by **soseggnchips** » 2021-02-04 11:53 a.m.

[quote="Wilktone"]That's a great first post, soseggnchips! I think it's very useful.

The only thing I'd add is to reiterate something that I mentioned in one of my earlier posts. It's important to spend a little time just jamming too, just letting your ear and mood be your guide. It probably shouldn't be most of your practice time, but since that's our goal when performing it's a process that we should practice too.

Dave[/quote]

Thanks Dave. I completely agree with your suggestion - loads of good advice in this thread!

ezra · by **ezra** » 2025-01-12 7:58 p.m.

[quote="Doug Elliott"]I totally remember the time (in high school) when I had no idea how to start, or what to play, and whenever I tried, all of my technique went out the window. I got started by doing a lot of transcribing and copying. At the time that was mostly Urbie Green and Bob Brookmeyer.

At this point I suggest hitting it from as many different angles as possible.

Read Zac Lee's post in that other thread, it's all important stuff.

Listen, Transcribe.

Play by ear, every day. Get to know your way around the horn so you can play anything in any key without reading and without getting lost. That means tunes, etudes, scales, arpeggios, and maybe some patterns. You can't feel comfortable improvising unless you completely know your horn.

There's lots more but in my opinion that's where you need to start.[/quote]

I've been looking for the 'other thread', what's it called so I can read that too?

ezra · by **ezra** » 2025-01-12 7:59 p.m.

How do I find that 'other thread'? What's it called please?

Oslide · by **Oslide** » 2025-01-12 9:30 p.m.

<LINK_TEXT text="viewtopic.php?p=139340">https://trombonechat.com/viewtopic.php?p=139340</LINK_TEXT>

Look for the post by ExZacLee.

Good luck!

Doug_Elliott · by **Doug_Elliott** » 2025-01-12 10:14 p.m.

It's long but here's Zac's post:

[quote="ExZacLee"]I apologize in advance for this long missive... was about to delete it but i figured what the hell.

TLDR - yeah, trombone is hard, but so is everything else, so just do it. Everyone who does this dealt with the same "oh crap, there's no buttons on this thing!" situation. Go with your strengths. What is that? Sound.

<QUOTE author="CharlieB" post_id="139054" time="1611968163" user_id="250">
^^^^ All good points.

Trombone is a difficult instrument that presents big improvising challenges.[/quote]
Very true. All instruments have challenges, but the trombone and upright bass are easily the most challenging of the "common" jazz instruments.

[quote="CharlieB"]Even if a virtuoso trombonist overcomes all of these challenges, a trombone will never project the brilliance and excitement of a trumpet or a sax. It's something about the human response to the different timbres. I've seen it over and over. A trombonist can blow his brains out with an incredible improvisation and the audience is ho-hum.[/quote]
This, I think, is not so true. I've been on plenty of gigs where the reaction you describe came after something I played... and the amazing artistry on display by my trumpet and sax bandmates was greeted with more of a ho-hum attitude. It really depends on the song and the style it's in, and the closer that style gets to New Orleans and its surrounding environs, the more at home something big and beautiful like a trombone is. On a Coltrane composition, I'm rarely going to be in a position to put something out there that can compete with an equally competent saxophonist. I love Trane, I play a bunch of his stuff in my own groups, but I don't play it as well as a tenor player who loves Trane will. Now on a traditional jazz gig? Different story. That's my home. That's the trombone's home. NOLA brass band stuff? No contest. In most of those groups the trambones are stomping. Certain big band tunes can not have any substitute for the trombone solo. IGYUMS? I've heard bands give that tbn solo to a sax player, heard it given to a trumpet player. Never works like the real thing. There are certain styles the trombone is more at home with. If one is trying to find their voice on this instrument and feels lost, they should start there. The syntax between the styles isn't as different as people try to make it out to be. If you learn how to speak well in a style you love, it makes it that much easier to translate your ideas to something more foreign or difficult.

I love bebop and play it every chance i get, but I know what I'm putting out there isn't always going to be as "electrifying" as what the saxophonist may do. That's alright... I get into my JJ vein and milk it for all it's worth, and if I do something particularly memorable, I learn from that. Mostly I learn how hard it is to play Segment at 300...

In Salsa, Timba, and other related styles, the trombone is king. Most of the groups I play in that do these Afro-Caribbean styles, the trombone is the first horn called (and usually the only one if the budget is small.) My stamina used to be pretty amazing because of gigs in these bands. It was constant playing and I usually had more solos than anyone else in the band... it's more akin to the lead tenor book in a big band, just with longer and louder solos. In Cuba, Puerto Rico, Venezuela, etc., you'll find the trombone has a higher sense of place, if you will, in the music. I've never had to buy a drink on those gigs.

Before the Covid hit, a good amount of my work was with jazz groups that also bring a lot of soul and gospel into the music. The vocal quality of the trombone combined with the sheer power of the instrument works great in these "neo-soul jazz" groups.
</QUOTE>

[quote="CharlieB"]But let a trumpet or sax player stand up and blow a few riffs and the audience comes alive.

It's something about the way humans respond to different sound frequencies. The low brass is the serene, mellow part of the group that is seldom chosen to showcase it.[/quote]

Well, if all you do is explore the mellow and serene side of the instrument, of course you're not going to excite people in every solo. The role of the trombone in most forms of popular music calls for big and brash just as often, if not more so. Sax and trumpet can be mellow and serene as well... if they do that on a solo when the band is decidedly not serene and mellow, they're not getting any more love than the trombone or anyone else in the band.

JJ didn't play "saxophone lines" in most of his solos - his sound and his sense of swing and rhythm are what gets your attention. Heck, most of his solos are very approachable on the horn. I get all of my trombone students playing JJ solos - there's plenty of variation in difficulty across his body of work. The range is usually more of an issue than the speed of the actual lines, and JJ's range generally doesn't go beyond a high D - most of his stuff doesn't go above high C or Bb. As mentioned earlier, many of JJ's solos are "worked up" - he was a brilliant improvisor but generally knew what he was going to play before he went into the studio (some live stuff I've heard JJ on doesn't even sound like him it's so on another level of genius.) This is more common than a lot of people think. Compare alternate tracks on re-issues. It wasn't just JJ. TLDR: It's okay to work stuff up. This is a language, none of us are making up the words we're typing right now. Also, Swing is defined by the rhythm more-so than the harmonic language. One note in the right place is better than four in the wrong place.

Curtis Fuller plays a lot of stuff that is very approachable. His stuff just lays well, and rarely goes beyond 5th. Dynamically, he's very underrated for the amount of variation in his sound (probably due to the heavy compression on a lot of reissues i've heard). From whisper to shout - he really gets a lot of mileage out his solos, often from a small number of motifs. His "Wee Small Hours" from the Blakey album "Caravan" is the greatest late-night-feelin-sorry-for-yourself song I've ever heard. TLDR: Dynamics and sound are more important than blazing technique.

Rosolino - I can't do Roz, don't even ask me how. I've had one student who could. The approach is more similar to the old school approach (more arpeggiated vs. JJ's linear conception) but using modern harmonic language. His abilities were and still are beyond me (and most trombone players). Occasionally I'll hear him play something I like and know I can play so I'll work it up but generally I just listen to him solely for enjoyment. I have no problem admitting when I'm licked. Generally, if my beginners are into Roz, we work on some other stuff for a while so we can (me included) develop the necessary technique. I never could do lip slurs very well, and doing Roz well requires having those down, really articulate, with excellent time at all tempos. I don't know how many times I've stopped the CD while listening to Roz with a student to exclaim "I have no idea how he is doing that and swinging it so hard, that is so hard to do!" And then I'll hear someone do it and I'm just like "*?*" TLDR: Some people have technical powers you may never develop, but working towards them makes you better. I still can't play his stuff, but my lip slurs have improved tremendously from trying.

Fontana - I used to be able to do him okay-ish, I had a natural doodle tongue I didn't have to work on as much as most people, but this style does not keep well. If you lay off, you lose it. A lot of attention is paid to the fretting and what not by most students, but it's the accurate slide technique at speed (practice them modes and sequences!) that really prepares you for this guy. Not many of his solos I've heard that are "approachable" for beginners, but there is a lot of his stuff that lays easy on the horn if you can handle the speed and the doodle tongue. Other players with similar-ish approaches to the horn (Bob McChesney, Conrad Herwig, Marshall Gilkes for example) have similar technical challenges in their work. Often these are the guys I hear being referred to when someone talks about the difficulty of playing jazz on trombone. Yeah, this approach is incredibly difficult, but it's not impossible. It can all be broken down into patterns to practice (a lot). I took a lesson with Marshall Gilkes about 11 or 12 years ago and he told me a couple of little things that made a huge difference - one of those things (try saying "tuttle" instead of "doo-dle") really helped clarify things in certain registers where my clarity was breaking down. TLDR: Get a lesson with someone you look up to. I do this as often as I can afford the time and money to do it.

Back to the JJ - strain of playing, Slide Hampton is a bit more difficult than JJ and Curtis (for me) but he was my first template for the approach I take to playing salsa. Slide's big sound is the template that much of what I'd call the "modern NYC trombone sound" is based on. I hear his influence (and JJ's of course) being the most common amongst Jazz and Afro-Caribbean musicians coming out of that thing. It's not the only one, of course, NYC gives you a pretty broad sample of aesthetic now-a-days, even in the time of Covid. TLDR: What's your "sound"? A great sound can transcend stylistic concerns. Communicate your truth! Who do you love? What do you love? Play that!

Willie Colon and Jimmy Bosch both have exciting approaches to playing the trombone that translate really well to jazz and most forms of popular music (I prefer Sam's term, Pan-American vernacular music, and use that in my coursework.) Both are known for their work in the Salsa Dura (hard salsa) style - a style that is as much a part of jazz as anything from New Orleans. TLDR: There are no rules against bringing something different to the table as long as you respect the music. So many of the jazz musicians I worship either had Caribbean roots or have actual experience playing other styles of music in addition to jazz.

Teagarden? That stuff's generally quite a bit harder (for some, including me) although there are plenty of his solos that are easy and approachable. Teagarden was all melody. TLDR: Melody was, is, and always will be the primary consideration.

Dorsey? Range makes Dorsey difficult, but most of his songs are very approachable and provide extremely valuable melodic content. In my opinion, knowing at least some Dorsey is absolutely necessary to understanding JJ and his disciples. (And Urbie - jeez.) I remember one of my teachers telling me how huge Dorsey's sound was, how huge JJ's sound was - they weren't just smooth and pristine, they were big and scaled up too. I never could get in the ballpark of that Dorsey sound until I realized I'd been trying to make it too small, too quiet, and that there was a lot more volume there than I thought. TLDR: Sound, sound, sound, sound SOUND!

There used to be a radio station around here that played a lot of old big band stuff from the 30s and 40s. I had never realized how much popular big band literature was out there that featured the trombone so prominently that wasn't Dorsey. TLDR: People have always liked the trombone, they still do. Sometimes context matters...

There are a multitude of approaches to playing the trombone that are successful in improvised music, and not all of them are as difficult as bebop or modern up-tempo straight ahead jazz. If one really wants to be able to rip off blazing flights of fancy at q=350, go for it! Don't feel bad about starting a little slower at first, though. TLDR: Go practice. You'll never be able to hang at some ridiculous tempo on some ridiculous maze of chord changes if you aren't practicing something so much easier, so much slower, right now.

[/quote]

snowtraveler · by **snowtraveler** » 2025-01-28 8:00 p.m.

Late to this thread, and sorry, but no. The trombone is tough to master, sure—yet countless players have matched its challenges, far too many to dismiss it as futile. If you’ve listened, you’ve heard it.

The trombone’s sound and appeal come from its simple design. Valves can’t and won’t ever replicate the unique beauty of the trombone. Technique is the player’s challenge, but the instrument itself can create some of the most expressive, unforgettable music. A single, beautifully played note can inspire an audience—and the player, too. That’s everything.

And as for exemplars? IDK, Watrous, McChesney, JJ, TB Shorty...the list would fill a library. (I could name-drop players I’ve sat next to who’ve inspired me, but I’ll resist.)

Anyway, thanks for the reminder about why I do this!

snowtraveler · by **snowtraveler** » 2025-01-28 8:09 p.m.

"In my opinion, the trombone is the true head of the family of wind instruments, which I have named the 'epic' one. It possesses nobility and grandeur to the highest degree; it has all the serious and powerful tones of sublime musical poetry, from religious, calm and imposing accents to savage, orgiastic outburst. Directed by the will of the master, the trombones can chant like a choir of priests, threaten, utter gloomy sighs, a mournful lament, or a bright hymn of glory; they can break forth into awe-inspiring cries and awaken the dead or doom the living with their fearful voices."

—Berlioz.

Bach5G · by **Bach5G** » 2025-01-28 8:33 p.m.

What does TLDR mean?

I don’t think Berlioz has much to say about improvising Jazz on trombone.

Doug_Elliott · by **Doug_Elliott** » 2025-01-28 8:40 p.m.

Too Long Don't Read

Which means read it

snowtraveler · by **snowtraveler** » 2025-01-28 9:12 p.m.

[quote="Bach5G"]What does TLDR mean?

I don’t think Berlioz has much to say about improvising Jazz on trombone.[/quote]

Perhaps not. Think he has anything to say about music?

Bach5G · by **Bach5G** » 2025-01-29 12:04 a.m.

[quote="snowtraveler"]<QUOTE author="Bach5G" post_id="265425" time="1738114402" user_id="2999">
What does TLDR mean?

I don’t think Berlioz has much to say about improvising Jazz on trombone.[/quote]

Perhaps not. Think he has anything to say about music?
</QUOTE>

We did Symphonie Fantastique a couple of years ago. Great piece.

baileyman · by **baileyman** » 2025-01-29 9:56 a.m.

Here's an exercise. Using a lead sheet with modest changes and backing track, play the roots on one. If successful then play a note half step below in front of it, using time in the previous measure. If successful, play the half step down, then minor third up, the half step down, then the root on one as before. If successful add the third after the root. Or the seven. If successful do the same thing from above, 2 4 3 ahead, root on 1. Then you're off and running.

snowtraveler · by **snowtraveler** » 2025-01-29 4:17 p.m.

[quote="baileyman"]Here's an exercise. Using a lead sheet with modest changes and backing track, play the roots on one. If successful then play a note half step below in front of it, using time in the previous measure. If successful, play the half step down, then minor third up, the half step down, then the root on one as before. If successful add the third after the root. Or the seven. If successful do the same thing from above, 2 4 3 ahead, root on 1. Then you're off and running.[/quote]

Back-to-basics is exactly what I'm doing, and it's way more fun than say...wait, better not mention anyone's etudes or I'll get flamed.

Seriously, just focusing on roots with a great sound, pulse and swing is actually quite challenging. It's educational what you can do just playing B-flats over a B-flat blues!

Bach5G · by **Bach5G** » 2025-01-29 5:41 p.m.

Take a course, take some lessons.

UrbanaDave · by **UrbanaDave** » 2025-02-02 4:45 a.m.

[quote="Wilktone"]I'm a big fan of Hal Crook's books "How To Improvise: An Approach To Practicing Improvisation" and "Ready, Aim, Improvise." He points out that a lot of improvisers spend all their time with the "ready, fire, aim" approach. It's a good way to practice using your ear and intuition that way, but progress is slower because you don't set targeted goals.

Dave[/quote]

Anybody know if the Hal Crook is available in bass clef?

Wilktone · by **Wilktone** » 2025-02-03 10:32 a.m.

I don't think Hal Crook's books have a bass clef version. I don't think any of the written out exercises are meant to be read, per se, they are usually just examples of how one might improvise over the exercises.

But it's really a good idea to be proficient at reading treble clef (and C clefs and also transposing by sight to be able to play Bb, Eb, and F transposed parts). I always suggest to all my jazz students that they use concert treble clef fake books, regardless of what instrument they actually play.

UrbanaDave · by **UrbanaDave** » 2025-02-03 12:07 p.m.

Thanks, David!

GGJazz · by **GGJazz** » 2025-02-03 7:11 p.m.

Hi Folks.

I studied at Berklee College for two semesters, and during the second I had classes with Hal Crook . I took with him a Jazz impro techniques class , and an ensemble ( three trombones plus Rh. Section) . Then I had ten private lessons with him , at his house.

At the time the reference book was " How to Improvise" .

The examples you was talking about were recorded , on two tapes , by Hal Coook on piano . Those tapes were included on the item.

I think that it would be better to listen to them ( if possible) , and then play it very carefully , because they really show what Hal Crook was meaning about the differents topics of the book . Those examples are really helpful , in my opinion .

Furthermore , some of them are built over famous standards ' , or master' jazz players originals ' , chords progressions : to say , on Section II , example 31 is based upon " Solar" ; example 28 of Section III is based on " Green Dolphin Street" ; example 9 on Section V is based on " Groovin High" ; etc. So you can get some ideas for your performances .

Hal Crook is a fabulous musician , trombone player , and teacher !

Regards

Giancarlo

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