3B

Elow · by **Elow** » 2021-02-13 6:27 p.m.

I have a 3B, and solos that go to high Ds in jazz band. I play bass for the bass part and switch to the 3b sometime mid song for the solo. The problem i’m having is i’m sounding like a straight laser beam. Super bright and just not how i want to sound. I’m assuming the problem is with me, but i’m not really sure what to change

harrisonreed · by **harrisonreed** » 2021-02-13 7:00 p.m.

Can we hear any audio? It might be just fine. Laser beam is good sometimes

BGuttman · by **BGuttman** » 2021-02-13 7:01 p.m.

You are probably playing the 3B like your bass. The 3B requires less air and more finesse. Switching in the middle of a concert (or even worse in the middle of one tune) can be VERY difficult to control.

Can you find a way to play the solo on your bass? Maybe change the tessitura if the high D is too high.

Elow · by **Elow** » 2021-02-13 7:17 p.m.

I can get audio wednesday, it might be what bruce mentioned. I can play most of the solos on the bass, but it just takes so much more effort on the bass than on the 3b

Jimprindle · by **Jimprindle** » 2021-02-13 7:20 p.m.

[quote="BGuttman"]You are probably playing the 3B like your bass. The 3B requires less air and more finesse. Switching in the middle of a concert (or even worse in the middle of one tune) can be VERY difficult to control.

Can you find a way to play the solo on your bass? Maybe change the tessitura if the high D is too high.[/quote]
Bruce is exactly right. For 50 years of professional career I was a bass trombonist, now that I’m retired I’m playing in other groups, (well, before the pandemic of course), and have been playing a King 3B silver sonic on first parts. Which is a lot of fun after only being a bass player!

One of the first things I noticed is: a) It is a lot easier to play in the upper register on a small bore tenor trombone (duh!), b) it takes a lot less air to produce a good sound.

Same thing I noticed when I played some sackbut parts on a real sackbut...it’s more like you’re humming through the horn then blowing through the horn.

Vegasbound · by **Vegasbound** » 2021-02-14 4:41 a.m.

How much time are you spending on the 3b during your daily practice? As other say it's a different approach and sound concept to bass trombone

Burgerbob · by **Burgerbob** » 2021-02-14 5:22 a.m.

[quote="Vegasbound"]How much time are you spending on the 3b during your daily practice?[/quote]

:clever:

Elow · by **Elow** » 2021-02-14 9:39 p.m.

:/ well... i play on it in class, and thats about it. I dont like playing it

BigBadandBass · by **BigBadandBass** » 2021-02-14 10:09 p.m.

This may not be the answer you're looking for, but why not work on the bass high range and just keep everything on bass? If it sounds good who cares the size of the horn

Elow · by **Elow** » 2021-02-14 10:58 p.m.

[quote="BigBadandBass"]This may not be the answer you're looking for, but why not work on the bass high range and just keep everything on bass? If it sounds good who cares the size of the horn[/quote]

<LINK_TEXT text="https://drive.google.com/drive/folders/ ... sp=sharing">https://drive.google.com/drive/folders/1nmgeCBk4diBrIzBby75pz2LtM8DFxK-5?usp=sharing</LINK_TEXT> Thats the main part that sounds bad on bass, and is hard to play. What would you suggest i do to make that sound less tuba-y

harrisonreed · by **harrisonreed** » 2021-02-14 11:06 p.m.

[quote="Elow"]:/ well... i play on it in class, and thats about it. I dont like playing it[/quote]

That might be why you don't like the way it plays. You need to play instruments that are fun to play.

Completely different take -- could it be that you are using the totally wrong mouthpiece for you or the 3B?

What mouthpiece do you play on bass? What mouthpiece are you using on the 3B?

I wouldn't be able to play my 3B without the special mouthpiece from Doug Elliott. Even if a 7C is the "correct" mouthpiece that comes in the box, I physically can't play on one.

Elow · by **Elow** » 2021-02-14 11:19 p.m.

I use a bach heavyweight 5g on my small tenor and symington 2 on my bass, i would much rather have something else besides a 3b but the wallet would not allow for it

spencercarran · by **spencercarran** » 2021-02-14 11:50 p.m.

[quote="Elow"]I dont like playing it[/quote]
Then don't! You're not (currently) playing in order to pay the rent, so why would you play something you don't enjoy?

harrisonreed · by **harrisonreed** » 2021-02-15 1:22 a.m.

Again, just musings from the peanut gallery, but based on that info, here is my guess:

The 5G heavy is absolutely not the right mouthpiece for lead work or small tenor playing in general. It allows you to feel like you can play it like your bass, which is not the way to play a small tenor.

Something like a Doug Elliott XT106N rim with a C+ cup and D3 shank (my exact setup) will "feel" like your 2G, but won't let you play it like your bass. It is a fantastic setup for small bore, for folks who don't gravitate towards small bore playing.

Burgerbob · by **Burgerbob** » 2021-02-15 3:32 a.m.

[quote="harrisonreed"]\

Something like a Doug Elliott XT106N rim with a C+ cup and D3 shank (my exact setup) will "feel" like your 2G, but won't let you play it like your bass.[/quote]

I play my small horns with a XT103N.C+.D3. Amazing combo. Find the rim for you (dear reader, not Harrison) and you are set.

harrisonreed · by **harrisonreed** » 2021-02-15 3:35 a.m.

[quote="Burgerbob"]<QUOTE author="harrisonreed" post_id="140719" time="1613370120" user_id="3642">
\

Something like a Doug Elliott XT106N rim with a C+ cup and D3 shank (my exact setup) will "feel" like your 2G, but won't let you play it like your bass.[/quote]

I play my small horns with a XT103N.C+.D3. Amazing combo. Find the rim for you (dear reader, not Harrison) and you are set.
</QUOTE>

Lol! Yes, that rim works well for me. I just assume it works for everyone! The trick is, just as Aiden here says, finding the right rim. The other two components are great matches to the 3B full stop.

BigBadandBass · by **BigBadandBass** » 2021-02-15 8:41 a.m.

More peanut gallery musings, but you're not playing this for bread, nor for gig that states that it's for tenor. I think what really comes down to it is this, is it less fun to play on bass or tenor. You could get a mouthpiece, but that sounds out of the cards, so you could either push through the weirdness on bass and probably get a lot better there in that upper facility, or push through that spite of tenor and gain a whole lot of doubling skills. My advice (mind you it's usually half off at . 01¢), learn it on both, use the bass playing to inform the tenor and vice versa, I'm sure you'll gain an appreciation for the tenor doing so, it's not all going to be easy after all.

BGuttman · by **BGuttman** » 2021-02-15 9:15 a.m.

One other thing to consider: Elow is playing bass trombone in Jazz Band and Euph in Concert Band. He's got enough hardware going back and forth from hoem to school without considering the 3B. Plus, all the practice time on the 3B takes away from his "majors", the Euph and the Bass.

I can somewhat sympathize with him since I played an F-attachment trombone in High School and as such was automatically assigned the 4th part in Big Band. But I was also the only kid who could hit a high Bb and one of the pieces we played called for one in the 1st part, so I had to play it. On the F-attachment trombone. Note that times were different then, and most kids played straight tenors; usually the size of a Conn 4H or 6H.

Elow, is th esolo with the high D scripted or are you improvising there? Could you revise the solo to fit in the tessitura of the bass trombone?

Kingfan · 2021-02-15 9:34 a.m.

I was a large bore tenor player on a Bach 5G, and also have a bass using a 1 1/2G. When I started playing my 3B and other small bore tenors on Bach 7C and smaller mps it just didn't work for me, they felt too restrictive. Doug Elliott suggested a Bach 5 size and it worked! I now play his DE LT101/LTD/D3 combo on my small bores, including my 2B. I have no problem doing a Dorsey medley with melodies above the staff up to a high C. I can get a high D, just not several times in a row...

Kingfan · by **Kingfan** » 2021-02-15 9:38 a.m.

[quote="BGuttman"]I can somewhat sympathize with him since I played an F-attachment trombone in High School and as such was automatically assigned the 4th part in Big Band. But I was also the only kid who could hit a high Bb and one of the pieces we played called for one in the 1st part, so I had to play it. On the F-attachment trombone. Note that times were different then, and most kids played straight tenors; usually the size of a Conn 4H or 6H.[/quote]

I had a 4B-F large bore tenor in high school. In jazz band I played the school 72H bass as a sophomore, lead on my 4B as a junior, but as a senior I sat between first and bass and doubled whichever part needed it on my 4B. We were doing Don Ellis charts, so I'm not talking easy stuff. I was playing second in a jr. college jazz band while in high school too (John Fedchock was on first). A few weeks before a concert the bass bone player got sick and the director had me cover the bass parts on my 4B. All that is probably why I have such a wide range to this day.

Elow · by **Elow** » 2021-02-15 2:22 p.m.

If i didn’t just spend all my moneys on pc parts i would get a lesson with doug and a mouthpiece, but for now, i guess practicing the 3b is the most effective way

Vegasbound · by **Vegasbound** » 2021-02-15 2:46 p.m.

It's the only way

BigBadandBass · by **BigBadandBass** » 2021-02-15 5:14 p.m.

I mean you could play it on bass, but if what your concept of the sound and what you think the solo needs to sound like requires the 3B, then this is the way

Burgerbob · by **Burgerbob** » 2021-02-15 5:15 p.m.

[quote="BigBadandBass"]I mean you could play it on bass, but if what your concept of the sound and what you think the solo needs to sound like requires the 3B, then this is the way[/quote]

Assuming it's something like the Kenton "West Side Story" solo, it would sound pretty awful on bass. We're talking high Ds after all.

harrisonreed · by **harrisonreed** » 2021-02-15 5:27 p.m.

High D so high!

There is something basic here we're all missing I think. Switching from bass to small tenor in the middle of a piece, so you can play D's, is bound to cause problems. It's another factor separate from being able to correctly finesse a small bore tenor, or having the right gear/mp.

sacfxdx · by **sacfxdx** » 2021-02-15 5:40 p.m.

Time for your band-mates (on tenor) to take on that high D. Give everyone a chance to build their range.

BigBadandBass · by **BigBadandBass** » 2021-02-15 11:18 p.m.

After listening to your tape again I am reminded of something a teacher told me in high jazz camp, "just relax and let the music come out, don't force it". Without listening to the whole thing, it sounds modern enough that I think you could justify using the bass, and besides, what's cooler, a trombonist playing high on a small trombone, or a trombonist playing high on a big trombone? ;)

Elow · by **Elow** » 2021-02-16 11:30 p.m.

Well, lucky me. Our first trombone got covid, and now im stuck on first part because none of the other kids can play an A. I guess ill actually have to practice the 3b, because the performance is on friday

Ted · by **Ted** » 2021-02-17 1:38 a.m.

Yeah lucky you, you got a performance!

BGuttman · by **BGuttman** » 2021-02-17 1:41 a.m.

I hope your 1st Trombone recovers OK. Meanwhile, learn some finesse.

harrisonreed · by **harrisonreed** » 2021-02-17 6:57 a.m.

[quote="Elow"]Well, lucky me. <U>Our first trombone got covid</U>, and now im stuck on first part because none of the other kids can play an A. I guess ill actually have to practice the 3b, because the performance is on friday[/quote]

This is literally why America is being ravaged by COVID. I thought schools were supposed to be staffed with like, smart people...?

I just saw that I missed your recording somehow. Hmmm. It's hard to tell from it

BGuttman · by **BGuttman** » 2021-02-17 11:46 a.m.

Harrison, you have to understand that in the US COVID is only part disease and part political football. Some areas of the US treat COVID as an inconvenience to be ignored. Florida appears to be one such place.

I'm headed out do a doctor appointment and per recommendations I'll be double masked.

MagnumH · by **MagnumH** » 2021-02-17 3:25 p.m.

You've gotten great advice here already - practice a lot on the 3B to get more comfortable with the 3B. It takes less air. Also, you WANT some sizzle. Especially on a Trombone Shorty tune. Plus, a shallower cup mouthpiece is very likely good for that horn.

Someone else you can listen to, for a different sound concept, is Big Sam (of Big Sam's Funky Nation). He's another funky New Orleans bone player, with a HUGE sound, and he plays a straight Bass Trombone. He sure as hell doesn't sound tuba-y. Not sure what mouthpiece he uses - in more recent pictures it looks like a Wick Heritage model of some size.

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