What's up with WWBW?
- Doubler
- Posts: 435
- Joined: Jan 07, 2019
I placed two orders for routine cleaning/maintenance supplies toward the end of last year and have not received them, although I have been charged for the purchases. Communication from WWBW has consisted of various delays, including out of stock/back ordered, canceled order, shipped order to wrong recipient, will ship order promptly, will refund all charges, etc.
Prior to these difficulties, WWBW had treated me very well. Has anyone else had similar experiences?
In researching this phenomenon, I found significantly poor ratings for the company and also that they have reportedly combined with Musician's Friend, another company with significantly poor ratings.
FWIW - I am moving my business to Dillon Music on a regular basis; they have always treated me exceptionally well.
Prior to these difficulties, WWBW had treated me very well. Has anyone else had similar experiences?
In researching this phenomenon, I found significantly poor ratings for the company and also that they have reportedly combined with Musician's Friend, another company with significantly poor ratings.
FWIW - I am moving my business to Dillon Music on a regular basis; they have always treated me exceptionally well.
- Burgerbob
- Posts: 6327
- Joined: Apr 23, 2018
WWBW has been "big box awfulness" for more than a decade now. I get all those kinds of supplies from Hickey's.
- Kingfan
- Posts: 1371
- Joined: Apr 11, 2018
I bought a Yam YSL-354 from WWBW way back when they were in an old house in South Bend. Very cool place. Woodwinds were on the first floor, brass on the second IIRC. Sorry to see them in trouble. Guitar Center bought Musician's Friend in 1999, WWBW bought Zapf's Music (now Music123) in 2002, and Guitar Center bought WWBW in 2007. No wonder their websites look so much alike and the prices are the same. I'm lucky to have a local music store that has great prices on supplies, so don't need to order them. The only thing I like about Musician's Gear is their Stupid Deal Of The Day; most of their specials are guitar related, but I've got some hot deals on music stands, microphones, XLR cables, etc.
- JCBone
- Posts: 373
- Joined: Jul 29, 2020
According to wikipedia, after they bought Zapf they decided terminate their owners- Stephan and Richard Zapf. The Zapf brothers promptly sued WWBW which led to a whole big legal debacle which ultimetely led them to declare bankruptcy in which the judge ruled unfavorably. Guitar Center purchased WWBW that same year.
- walldaja
- Posts: 537
- Joined: Jul 11, 2018
I used to drive up to WWBW when they were in South Bend. It was one of the few places you could go and try more than one or two brands of instruments. After the merger their big new warehouse and showroom just sat vacant. I was afraid their move from the little over stuffed building on State Line Rd to a multi-million edifice probably put a big kink in their cash flow as became obvious with their eventual decline.
Had an adult student who wanted to buy a pro horn--had more money than skill. He ended up going through four or five horns trying to get one without any major flaws (scratches, discolorations,) and these were not open box items.
Not sure how Guitar Center et al manage to stay above the water, especially this past year. Certainly it isn't service.
Had an adult student who wanted to buy a pro horn--had more money than skill. He ended up going through four or five horns trying to get one without any major flaws (scratches, discolorations,) and these were not open box items.
Not sure how Guitar Center et al manage to stay above the water, especially this past year. Certainly it isn't service.
- Kdanielsen
- Posts: 609
- Joined: Jul 28, 2019
As an employee of Guitar Center (I teach some lessons through Music & Arts) I can assure you the entire organization is a disaster at every level. I am nothing but frustrated with the whole thing.
Their real master stroke during COVID was to convert all teachers to actual employees (rather than independent 1099 type workers). This meant a pay cut for all teachers and no control over what we charge. They are also keeping more of the money from lessons than before. I am at their highest level of compensation: $32/hr. I charge minimum $60/hr privately.
I could go on and on but the fact that someone is frustrated with their customer service etc. is totally not surprising.
Their real master stroke during COVID was to convert all teachers to actual employees (rather than independent 1099 type workers). This meant a pay cut for all teachers and no control over what we charge. They are also keeping more of the money from lessons than before. I am at their highest level of compensation: $32/hr. I charge minimum $60/hr privately.
I could go on and on but the fact that someone is frustrated with their customer service etc. is totally not surprising.
- Posaunus
- Posts: 5018
- Joined: Mar 23, 2018
[quote="Doubler"]FWIW - I am moving my business to Dillon Music on a regular basis; they have always treated me exceptionally well.[/quote]
Same here. I just placed an order tonight with Dillon Music.
Good people; good prices; good service. Family; not corporate! :good:
Same here. I just placed an order tonight with Dillon Music.
Good people; good prices; good service. Family; not corporate! :good:
- Cotboneman
- Posts: 210
- Joined: Jul 27, 2018
[quote="Kdanielsen"]As an employee of Guitar Center (I teach some lessons through Music & Arts) I can assure you the entire organization is a disaster at every level. I am nothing but frustrated with the whole thing.
Their real master stroke during COVID was to convert all teachers to actual employees (rather than independent 1099 type workers). This meant a pay cut for all teachers and no control over what we charge. They are also keeping more of the money from lessons than before. I am at their highest level of compensation: $32/hr. I charge minimum $60/hr privately.
I could go on and on but the fact that someone is frustrated with their customer service etc. is totally not surprising.[/quote]
I taught as an independent contractor after retirement for Music & Arts myself for a year and half, until they decided to pull the plug on their independent contractors and make them employees. I knew this was their motivation - to keep more or the money - so i ended my relationship with them. It's a sad turn of events.
Their real master stroke during COVID was to convert all teachers to actual employees (rather than independent 1099 type workers). This meant a pay cut for all teachers and no control over what we charge. They are also keeping more of the money from lessons than before. I am at their highest level of compensation: $32/hr. I charge minimum $60/hr privately.
I could go on and on but the fact that someone is frustrated with their customer service etc. is totally not surprising.[/quote]
I taught as an independent contractor after retirement for Music & Arts myself for a year and half, until they decided to pull the plug on their independent contractors and make them employees. I knew this was their motivation - to keep more or the money - so i ended my relationship with them. It's a sad turn of events.
- elmsandr
- Posts: 1373
- Joined: Mar 23, 2018
Man do I miss that shack they used to have on State Line Rd. Guys would disappear in the back and then return in a half hour with a half dozen horns in cases that had never even been opened. I remember once asking if I could have a job after spending time cleaning and lubing a bunch of slides while trying out horns. The guy with the big Rock hair just laughed at me and gave me a handful of pens. Still have a couple of them somewhere.
The huge store they moved to was fantastic, but you knew there was going to be money trouble when they built a place like that.
Cheers,
Andy
The huge store they moved to was fantastic, but you knew there was going to be money trouble when they built a place like that.
Cheers,
Andy
- Finetales
- Posts: 1482
- Joined: Mar 23, 2018
I got my euphonium at the big WWBW store right before it closed for good. Place was completely empty except for the few employees on hand.
They had a bass trombone harmon mute on display that I bought just for fun...and then I ended up using it more than any other mute that semester in college.
They had a bass trombone harmon mute on display that I bought just for fun...and then I ended up using it more than any other mute that semester in college.
- timothy42b
- Posts: 1812
- Joined: Mar 27, 2018
[quote="Cotboneman"]
I taught as an independent contractor after retirement for Music & Arts myself for a year and half, until they decided to pull the plug on their independent contractors and make them employees. I knew this was their motivation - to keep more or the money - so i ended my relationship with them. It's a sad turn of events.[/quote]
That may not have been their motivation, or at least their sole motivation.
There have been a number of court cases where individual contractors claimed they were really functioning as employees, but being treated as contractors so the business could avoid paying benefits. Courts have been sympathetic. I think Uber and Lyft are in that situation. It may be that Music & Arts decided to avoid legal fees and just give in.
I taught as an independent contractor after retirement for Music & Arts myself for a year and half, until they decided to pull the plug on their independent contractors and make them employees. I knew this was their motivation - to keep more or the money - so i ended my relationship with them. It's a sad turn of events.[/quote]
That may not have been their motivation, or at least their sole motivation.
There have been a number of court cases where individual contractors claimed they were really functioning as employees, but being treated as contractors so the business could avoid paying benefits. Courts have been sympathetic. I think Uber and Lyft are in that situation. It may be that Music & Arts decided to avoid legal fees and just give in.
- Kdanielsen
- Posts: 609
- Joined: Jul 28, 2019
[quote="timothy42b"]<QUOTE author="Cotboneman" post_id="142135" time="1614456362" user_id="3573">
I taught as an independent contractor after retirement for Music & Arts myself for a year and half, until they decided to pull the plug on their independent contractors and make them employees. I knew this was their motivation - to keep more or the money - so i ended my relationship with them. It's a sad turn of events.[/quote]
That may not have been their motivation, or at least their sole motivation.
There have been a number of court cases where individual contractors claimed they were really functioning as employees, but being treated as contractors so the business could avoid paying benefits. Courts have been sympathetic. I think Uber and Lyft are in that situation. It may be that Music & Arts decided to avoid legal fees and just give in.
</QUOTE>
They “gave in” to save money. Lessons are a huge cash cow. They also went through bankruptcy recently. Maybe the full time level piano teachers can get insurance now, but everyone took a pay cut.
I taught as an independent contractor after retirement for Music & Arts myself for a year and half, until they decided to pull the plug on their independent contractors and make them employees. I knew this was their motivation - to keep more or the money - so i ended my relationship with them. It's a sad turn of events.[/quote]
That may not have been their motivation, or at least their sole motivation.
There have been a number of court cases where individual contractors claimed they were really functioning as employees, but being treated as contractors so the business could avoid paying benefits. Courts have been sympathetic. I think Uber and Lyft are in that situation. It may be that Music & Arts decided to avoid legal fees and just give in.
</QUOTE>
They “gave in” to save money. Lessons are a huge cash cow. They also went through bankruptcy recently. Maybe the full time level piano teachers can get insurance now, but everyone took a pay cut.
- timothy42b
- Posts: 1812
- Joined: Mar 27, 2018
How does that save them money? As a contractor you get whatever percentage of the take they decide to give you. I'm just not following.
- Kdanielsen
- Posts: 609
- Joined: Jul 28, 2019
[quote="timothy42b"]How does that save them money? As a contractor you get whatever percentage of the take they decide to give you. I'm just not following.[/quote]
The percentage teachers kept before being converted to employees was higher. Everybody at every level is getting paid less by M&A and we have no control over our rates. Music and Arts saves money by giving less to the teachers.
The percentage teachers kept before being converted to employees was higher. Everybody at every level is getting paid less by M&A and we have no control over our rates. Music and Arts saves money by giving less to the teachers.
- Cotboneman
- Posts: 210
- Joined: Jul 27, 2018
[quote="Kdanielsen"]<QUOTE author="timothy42b" post_id="142363" time="1614716787" user_id="211">
How does that save them money? As a contractor you get whatever percentage of the take they decide to give you. I'm just not following.[/quote]
The percentage teachers kept before being converted to employees was higher. Everybody at every level is getting paid less by M&A and we have no control over our rates. Music and Arts saves money by giving less to the teachers.
</QUOTE>
Originally they were doing a 60/40 split with contractors when I started teaching there. I saw immediately that there was going to be a cut in fees with the hourly rate for their teaching staff, so I declined their offer. Not long after that I read about their reorganization, so I understood where that was coming from.
How does that save them money? As a contractor you get whatever percentage of the take they decide to give you. I'm just not following.[/quote]
The percentage teachers kept before being converted to employees was higher. Everybody at every level is getting paid less by M&A and we have no control over our rates. Music and Arts saves money by giving less to the teachers.
</QUOTE>
Originally they were doing a 60/40 split with contractors when I started teaching there. I saw immediately that there was going to be a cut in fees with the hourly rate for their teaching staff, so I declined their offer. Not long after that I read about their reorganization, so I understood where that was coming from.
- Mikebmiller
- Posts: 961
- Joined: Mar 27, 2018
I try to use my local music store for as much stuff as I can. They might be $1 more for a bottle of slide-o-mix, but who cares?
- Kdanielsen
- Posts: 609
- Joined: Jul 28, 2019
[quote="Cotboneman"]<QUOTE author="Kdanielsen" post_id="142374" time="1614720002" user_id="7231">
The percentage teachers kept before being converted to employees was higher. Everybody at every level is getting paid less by M&A and we have no control over our rates. Music and Arts saves money by giving less to the teachers.[/quote]
Originally they were doing a 60/40 split with contractors when I started teaching there. I saw immediately that there was going to be a cut in fees with the hourly rate for their teaching staff, so I declined their offer. Not long after that I read about their reorganization, so I understood where that was coming from.
</QUOTE>
They converted me into the highest pay tier (master teacher) and promised all sorts of things that never happened to make up for the pay cut. I also requested that they only assign me more advanced students (since I’m a “master” teacher). It’s been difficult to make them honor that. Honestly I’ve come close to quitting a few times but I have been teaching some of these kids for several or more years and I don’t want to abandon them.
The percentage teachers kept before being converted to employees was higher. Everybody at every level is getting paid less by M&A and we have no control over our rates. Music and Arts saves money by giving less to the teachers.[/quote]
Originally they were doing a 60/40 split with contractors when I started teaching there. I saw immediately that there was going to be a cut in fees with the hourly rate for their teaching staff, so I declined their offer. Not long after that I read about their reorganization, so I understood where that was coming from.
</QUOTE>
They converted me into the highest pay tier (master teacher) and promised all sorts of things that never happened to make up for the pay cut. I also requested that they only assign me more advanced students (since I’m a “master” teacher). It’s been difficult to make them honor that. Honestly I’ve come close to quitting a few times but I have been teaching some of these kids for several or more years and I don’t want to abandon them.
- Cotboneman
- Posts: 210
- Joined: Jul 27, 2018
[quote="Kdanielsen"]<QUOTE author="Cotboneman" post_id="142455" time="1614802100" user_id="3573">
Originally they were doing a 60/40 split with contractors when I started teaching there. I saw immediately that there was going to be a cut in fees with the hourly rate for their teaching staff, so I declined their offer. Not long after that I read about their reorganization, so I understood where that was coming from.[/quote]
They converted me into the highest pay tier (master teacher) and promised all sorts of things that never happened to make up for the pay cut. I also requested that they only assign me more advanced students (since I’m a “master” teacher). It’s been difficult to make them honor that. Honestly I’ve come close to quitting a few times but I have been teaching some of these kids for several or more years and I don’t want to abandon them.
</QUOTE>
I know the feeling. I was designated a master teacher as well, and I truly regretted leaving my students, but I was not happy with these events and could not endorse the program.
Originally they were doing a 60/40 split with contractors when I started teaching there. I saw immediately that there was going to be a cut in fees with the hourly rate for their teaching staff, so I declined their offer. Not long after that I read about their reorganization, so I understood where that was coming from.[/quote]
They converted me into the highest pay tier (master teacher) and promised all sorts of things that never happened to make up for the pay cut. I also requested that they only assign me more advanced students (since I’m a “master” teacher). It’s been difficult to make them honor that. Honestly I’ve come close to quitting a few times but I have been teaching some of these kids for several or more years and I don’t want to abandon them.
</QUOTE>
I know the feeling. I was designated a master teacher as well, and I truly regretted leaving my students, but I was not happy with these events and could not endorse the program.