Throat Sizing
- Bonephilly
- Posts: 106
- Joined: Aug 20, 2018
Looking for people who have had experience opening up the throat on their mouthpiece. Was the difference immediately noticeable? I understand that a larger throat can give you more sound because more air is going to the instrument, but what’s the trade off...running out of air? Harder to articulate?
- pedrombon
- Posts: 417
- Joined: Apr 11, 2018
My tech opened up the throat of my Schilke 53 small shank to .265". Now it's perfect for my medium bore horns.
Too bad I don't play that rim size now... BTW, it's for sale here :biggrin:
Too bad I don't play that rim size now... BTW, it's for sale here :biggrin:
- timothy42b
- Posts: 1812
- Joined: Mar 27, 2018
The tradeoff is that you go too far and ruin the mouthpiece.
Benade describes a procedure in Fundamentals of Musical Acoustics where he opens the throat while listening to the intonation of an upper partial.
Or if you go the modular route you just buy another shank and try that.
Benade describes a procedure in Fundamentals of Musical Acoustics where he opens the throat while listening to the intonation of an upper partial.
Or if you go the modular route you just buy another shank and try that.
- Tbarh
- Posts: 505
- Joined: Aug 16, 2018
I find that sometime a throat that is too open looses brilliance in sound... Lets say You use a big and deep mouthpiece for more power and low end... If You also bore it out, You May get a piece that is too woofy.. But what is too much, what is too little and what is Just right...??
- harrisonreed
- Posts: 6479
- Joined: Aug 17, 2018
I have just this type of experiment on its way to me in the mail. I'll report with a video once I get some time on it.
- Burgerbob
- Posts: 6327
- Joined: Apr 23, 2018
"larger throat" doesn't equivalate to "more sound" in every case. Some horns and faces need a larger throat, but bigger does not mean better across the board.
I love my DE D3 shank on my .508s, but the D2 is better on smaller horns, for instance.
I do wonder how my Bach no-letter mouthpieces would be with larger throats... but I'm not about to drill them out.
I love my DE D3 shank on my .508s, but the D2 is better on smaller horns, for instance.
I do wonder how my Bach no-letter mouthpieces would be with larger throats... but I'm not about to drill them out.
- pedrombon
- Posts: 417
- Joined: Apr 11, 2018
[quote="pedrombon"]My tech opened up the throat of my Schilke 53 small shank to .265". Now it's perfect for my medium bore horns.
Too bad I don't play that rim size now... BTW, it's for sale here :biggrin:[/quote]
Of course, the drilling process was progressive, every time he widened the throat I tried the mouthpiece on my horn, until we reached the throat size that was optimal for me and my trombone.
Too bad I don't play that rim size now... BTW, it's for sale here :biggrin:[/quote]
Of course, the drilling process was progressive, every time he widened the throat I tried the mouthpiece on my horn, until we reached the throat size that was optimal for me and my trombone.
- Jimprindle
- Posts: 103
- Joined: Apr 16, 2018
Professional player I know, now retired for several years, who I will not name. He had a long time position with a symphony orchestra.
He was very happy with his Minick L mouthpiece but in the mid 90s, hearing that bigger was better took a drill bit to the throat of his mouthpiece.
“How did that go for you?” I asked.
“Turned a perfectly good mouthpiece into a really ugly paperweight” he said.
He was very happy with his Minick L mouthpiece but in the mid 90s, hearing that bigger was better took a drill bit to the throat of his mouthpiece.
“How did that go for you?” I asked.
“Turned a perfectly good mouthpiece into a really ugly paperweight” he said.
- bassboneman69
- Posts: 290
- Joined: Aug 15, 2018
My dad played one bass and one mouthpiece. I have his Bach 1 1/2G that has had the shank and throat altered to seat in his Holton.
Sadly, we don’t have the Holton <EMOJI seq="2639" tseq="2639">☹️</EMOJI>
Sadly, we don’t have the Holton <EMOJI seq="2639" tseq="2639">☹️</EMOJI>
- Crazy4Tbone86
- Posts: 1654
- Joined: Jan 14, 2020
[quote="Tbarh"]I find that sometime a throat that is too open looses brilliance in sound... Lets say You use a big and deep mouthpiece for more power and low end... If You also bore it out, You May get a piece that is too woofy.. But what is too much, what is too little and what is Just right...??[/quote]
Yes, you can lose brilliance. I have also found that if you go a bit too far, certain registers can really lose clarity of articulation.
If there are do-it-yourselfers out there, be very careful if you are opening up the throat of a mouthpiece. Better yet.....TAKE YOUR MOUTHPIECE TO A MOUTHPIECE DESIGNER/MAKER OR EXPERIENCED TECH. Even better advice....search for a different mouthpiece that has the feel and sound you are looking for.
The problem is that a drill bit will have a certain amount of chatter when placed in the throat of a mouthpiece. Let's say you are aiming for a .266 inch throat. The H drill bit is exactly that size. However, depending on the bit and the machinery used, the chatter of the drill bit might create a throat that is anywhere from .269 - .280 inch......with bad chatter, possibly even larger. The mouthpiece could be ruined at that point.
Another thing to consider is that changing the throat of a mouthpiece might not be successful because the cup-to-throat transition and the throat-to-backbore transition might also need to altered also for optimum performance. It would probably be good for Doug Elliott to chime in here because he seems to be on a life-long quest to perfecting those transition points on his mouthpieces.
Yes, you can lose brilliance. I have also found that if you go a bit too far, certain registers can really lose clarity of articulation.
If there are do-it-yourselfers out there, be very careful if you are opening up the throat of a mouthpiece. Better yet.....TAKE YOUR MOUTHPIECE TO A MOUTHPIECE DESIGNER/MAKER OR EXPERIENCED TECH. Even better advice....search for a different mouthpiece that has the feel and sound you are looking for.
The problem is that a drill bit will have a certain amount of chatter when placed in the throat of a mouthpiece. Let's say you are aiming for a .266 inch throat. The H drill bit is exactly that size. However, depending on the bit and the machinery used, the chatter of the drill bit might create a throat that is anywhere from .269 - .280 inch......with bad chatter, possibly even larger. The mouthpiece could be ruined at that point.
Another thing to consider is that changing the throat of a mouthpiece might not be successful because the cup-to-throat transition and the throat-to-backbore transition might also need to altered also for optimum performance. It would probably be good for Doug Elliott to chime in here because he seems to be on a life-long quest to perfecting those transition points on his mouthpieces.
- ithinknot
- Posts: 1339
- Joined: Jul 24, 2020
[quote="Crazy4Tbone86"]The problem is that a drill bit will have a certain amount of chatter when placed in the throat of a mouthpiece.[/quote]
The other problem is that this is a job for a reamer, not a drill bit.
(Agree about the rest <span class="emoji" title=":wink:">😉</span> )
The other problem is that this is a job for a reamer, not a drill bit.
(Agree about the rest <span class="emoji" title=":wink:">😉</span> )
- Doug_Elliott
- Posts: 4155
- Joined: Mar 22, 2018
Us mouthpiece makers need to keep selling mouthpieces to stay in business, so just keep destroying mouthpieces so we can keep replacing them.
- Crazy4Tbone86
- Posts: 1654
- Joined: Jan 14, 2020
[quote="Doug Elliott"]Us mouthpiece makers need to keep selling mouthpieces to stay in business, so just keep destroying mouthpieces so we can keep replacing them.[/quote]
I love it! Reminds me of the time I visited legendary instrument repairman Chuck McAlexander when he had his shop on West 25th Street in Manhattan. I believe his shop was on the 3rd or 4th floor. A UPS delivery guy ran the bell at street level and said "I have four boxes for you." Chuck rang him in the door and we hear the guy trekking up all of the steps. When he was close to the top of the steps, we hear the UPS guy drop all of the boxes and they just tumbled back down the steps. Obviously these boxes had instruments or instrument parts in them, so I said "Oh no, that's horrible!" Chuck smiled at me and said "To the contrary, that's music to my ears!"
I love it! Reminds me of the time I visited legendary instrument repairman Chuck McAlexander when he had his shop on West 25th Street in Manhattan. I believe his shop was on the 3rd or 4th floor. A UPS delivery guy ran the bell at street level and said "I have four boxes for you." Chuck rang him in the door and we hear the guy trekking up all of the steps. When he was close to the top of the steps, we hear the UPS guy drop all of the boxes and they just tumbled back down the steps. Obviously these boxes had instruments or instrument parts in them, so I said "Oh no, that's horrible!" Chuck smiled at me and said "To the contrary, that's music to my ears!"
- harrisonreed
- Posts: 6479
- Joined: Aug 17, 2018
My experiment just arrived in the mail today. Since mouthpieces are always love at first note, I'll wait a bit before I dive in on what I found. But....
So far, the results are promising. I need to give another shout out to the crew at Bob Reeves. They have done two custom experimental jobs for me. The first one is a rim I use every day with my 3B. Been using it every day for over a year. Haven't found any fault with it. This new one, experiment 2, is a chimera mouthpiece, which either is or maybe can evolve into the "do all, hail mary" mouthpiece. The large throat and shallow cup was the key feature I was after.
Their work was impeccable!
So far, the results are promising. I need to give another shout out to the crew at Bob Reeves. They have done two custom experimental jobs for me. The first one is a rim I use every day with my 3B. Been using it every day for over a year. Haven't found any fault with it. This new one, experiment 2, is a chimera mouthpiece, which either is or maybe can evolve into the "do all, hail mary" mouthpiece. The large throat and shallow cup was the key feature I was after.
Their work was impeccable!
- WGWTR180
- Posts: 2152
- Joined: Sep 04, 2019
[quote="bassboneman69"]My dad played one bass and one mouthpiece. I have his Bach 1 1/2G that has had the shank and throat altered to seat in his Holton.
Sadly, we don’t have the Holton <EMOJI seq="2639" tseq="2639">☹️</EMOJI>[/quote]
I have Holtons. And I play Bach 1 and 1/2G mouthpieces. :hi:
Sadly, we don’t have the Holton <EMOJI seq="2639" tseq="2639">☹️</EMOJI>[/quote]
I have Holtons. And I play Bach 1 and 1/2G mouthpieces. :hi:
- Sniffynose
- Posts: 96
- Joined: Sep 29, 2020
Used a 1/4” drill bit to open the throat of my generic 12C mouthpiece. Should’ve did this years ago because the results were fantastic!
Plays louder
I can push more air without fighting the resistance
I can soar in and out of my high range with much more finesse than I could before
No more pain when over playing or tired (noticed instantly)
Better middle and lower range results
Better high range results
Better extreme flexibility
Liked the results so much I did the same to my 7C, 11C, and some other super shallow mouthpiece that I always wanted to play but couldn’t get any good results with, not realizing that the problem all along was the throat. The super shallow mouthpiece is absolute killer now.
Throat size has been holding me back for years and I finally conquered it.
Plays louder
I can push more air without fighting the resistance
I can soar in and out of my high range with much more finesse than I could before
No more pain when over playing or tired (noticed instantly)
Better middle and lower range results
Better high range results
Better extreme flexibility
Liked the results so much I did the same to my 7C, 11C, and some other super shallow mouthpiece that I always wanted to play but couldn’t get any good results with, not realizing that the problem all along was the throat. The super shallow mouthpiece is absolute killer now.
Throat size has been holding me back for years and I finally conquered it.
- Jimprindle
- Posts: 103
- Joined: Apr 16, 2018
[quote="Doug Elliott"]Us mouthpiece makers need to keep selling mouthpieces to stay in business, so just keep destroying mouthpieces so we can keep replacing them.[/quote]
Something similar to that Minick said to me in the 70s. Couple of other techs that I know said the same.
Something similar to that Minick said to me in the 70s. Couple of other techs that I know said the same.
- harrisonreed
- Posts: 6479
- Joined: Aug 17, 2018
My experimental mouthpiece requires a significantly lighter approach, which is great because you get a lot more out of the horn for less effort.
And when you push it ... LOUD.
And when you push it ... LOUD.
- heinzgries
- Posts: 250
- Joined: Apr 24, 2018
[quote="harrisonreed"]My experimental mouthpiece requires a significantly lighter approach, which is great because you get a lot more out of the horn for less effort.
And when you push it ... LOUD.[/quote]
which are the dimensions of the cup and the throat?
And when you push it ... LOUD.[/quote]
which are the dimensions of the cup and the throat?
- harrisonreed
- Posts: 6479
- Joined: Aug 17, 2018
[quote="heinzgries"]<QUOTE author="harrisonreed" post_id="143336" time="1615603003" user_id="3642">
My experimental mouthpiece requires a significantly lighter approach, which is great because you get a lot more out of the horn for less effort.
And when you push it ... LOUD.[/quote]
which are the dimensions of the cup and the throat?
</QUOTE>
The cup width is 26.9mm, depth is about the same as a Bousfield V3 when I eyeball it, maybe a hair deeper (I haven't measured this depth, but it's medium shallow). Nowhere near a 5G, not even close. The cup is probably the same depth as a Doug Elliott D or E cup, but I'm only saying that based on my C+ cup. It's sort of a V or funnel shaped cup. The throat is about 8.5mm, although there is a 8mm choke in the middle of the throat that expands back out to 8.5mm before the backbore opens up.
I am still practicing with it, but will do a video showing what it sounds like soon. I can say that the mouthpiece is extremely easy to play both softly and loudly, and the octaves are in tune. It is nice because it just takes a tiny amount of breath to get a note solid and stable at ppp, and you can just push more and more all the way to ffff.
I have found one thing that I don't like, and that is a slight sine wave overtone that appears at loud volumes. I wonder if this has to do with the cup shape.
My experimental mouthpiece requires a significantly lighter approach, which is great because you get a lot more out of the horn for less effort.
And when you push it ... LOUD.[/quote]
which are the dimensions of the cup and the throat?
</QUOTE>
The cup width is 26.9mm, depth is about the same as a Bousfield V3 when I eyeball it, maybe a hair deeper (I haven't measured this depth, but it's medium shallow). Nowhere near a 5G, not even close. The cup is probably the same depth as a Doug Elliott D or E cup, but I'm only saying that based on my C+ cup. It's sort of a V or funnel shaped cup. The throat is about 8.5mm, although there is a 8mm choke in the middle of the throat that expands back out to 8.5mm before the backbore opens up.
I am still practicing with it, but will do a video showing what it sounds like soon. I can say that the mouthpiece is extremely easy to play both softly and loudly, and the octaves are in tune. It is nice because it just takes a tiny amount of breath to get a note solid and stable at ppp, and you can just push more and more all the way to ffff.
I have found one thing that I don't like, and that is a slight sine wave overtone that appears at loud volumes. I wonder if this has to do with the cup shape.
- heinzgries
- Posts: 250
- Joined: Apr 24, 2018
thanks for quick response.
whats the biggest throat you using for alto playing?
whats the biggest throat you using for alto playing?
- harrisonreed
- Posts: 6479
- Joined: Aug 17, 2018
[quote="heinzgries"]thanks for quick response.
whats the biggest throat you using for alto playing?[/quote]
I haven't measured my alto piece but it is much smaller. It's a DE A alto shank.
whats the biggest throat you using for alto playing?[/quote]
I haven't measured my alto piece but it is much smaller. It's a DE A alto shank.
- gosterman
- Posts: 3
- Joined: Oct 18, 2022
I opened up the throats on my Bach 2G and 3G to 5/16 inch (7.9375mm) using my metal lathe. They seemed stuffy before, especially the 3G. I don't see any of the downsides mentioned in some of the other comments. My basic piece is a Denis Wick 2AL on a Bach 50B trombone. The 2 and 3G mouthpieces are a smaller alternative.
- harrisonreed
- Posts: 6479
- Joined: Aug 17, 2018
The trick is that you need to also alter the backbore -- otherwise you are just increasing the cylindrical length of the throat, which adds the perception of resistance.
- Posaunus
- Posts: 5018
- Joined: Mar 23, 2018
[quote="harrisonreed"]
The cup width is 26.9mm, depth is about the same as a Bousfield V3 when I eyeball it, maybe a hair deeper (I haven't measured this depth, but it's medium shallow). Nowhere near a 5G, not even close. The cup is probably the same depth as a Doug Elliott D or E cup, but I'm only saying that based on my C+ cup. It's sort of a V or funnel shaped cup. The throat is about 8.5mm, although there is a 8mm choke in the middle of the throat that expands back out to 8.5mm before the backbore opens up.
[/quote]
That's a big mouthpiece, and a huge throat. Even if shallower than a 5G, it must take a lot of air to play. I expect that I'd be out of breath after a few measures!
The cup width is 26.9mm, depth is about the same as a Bousfield V3 when I eyeball it, maybe a hair deeper (I haven't measured this depth, but it's medium shallow). Nowhere near a 5G, not even close. The cup is probably the same depth as a Doug Elliott D or E cup, but I'm only saying that based on my C+ cup. It's sort of a V or funnel shaped cup. The throat is about 8.5mm, although there is a 8mm choke in the middle of the throat that expands back out to 8.5mm before the backbore opens up.
[/quote]
That's a big mouthpiece, and a huge throat. Even if shallower than a 5G, it must take a lot of air to play. I expect that I'd be out of breath after a few measures!
- harrisonreed
- Posts: 6479
- Joined: Aug 17, 2018
[quote="Posaunus"]<QUOTE author="harrisonreed" post_id="143353" time="1615638753" user_id="3642">
The cup width is 26.9mm, depth is about the same as a Bousfield V3 when I eyeball it, maybe a hair deeper (I haven't measured this depth, but it's medium shallow). Nowhere near a 5G, not even close. The cup is probably the same depth as a Doug Elliott D or E cup, but I'm only saying that based on my C+ cup. It's sort of a V or funnel shaped cup. The throat is about 8.5mm, although there is a 8mm choke in the middle of the throat that expands back out to 8.5mm before the backbore opens up.
[/quote]
That's a big mouthpiece, and a huge throat. Even if shallower than a 5G, it must take a lot of air to play. I expect that I'd be out of breath after a few measures!
</QUOTE>
So I have the final measurements on it after it got scanned, and it was the entrance to the throat playing tricks on me. It's a .307" bore at the choke, so 7.79mm. but the entrance to the throat is 8+mm.
Rim size was 26.9 on the piece that got scanned, now it's 26.77mm on my final design.
It does not suck out all the air, because the backbore is actually not that open.
The cup width is 26.9mm, depth is about the same as a Bousfield V3 when I eyeball it, maybe a hair deeper (I haven't measured this depth, but it's medium shallow). Nowhere near a 5G, not even close. The cup is probably the same depth as a Doug Elliott D or E cup, but I'm only saying that based on my C+ cup. It's sort of a V or funnel shaped cup. The throat is about 8.5mm, although there is a 8mm choke in the middle of the throat that expands back out to 8.5mm before the backbore opens up.
[/quote]
That's a big mouthpiece, and a huge throat. Even if shallower than a 5G, it must take a lot of air to play. I expect that I'd be out of breath after a few measures!
</QUOTE>
So I have the final measurements on it after it got scanned, and it was the entrance to the throat playing tricks on me. It's a .307" bore at the choke, so 7.79mm. but the entrance to the throat is 8+mm.
Rim size was 26.9 on the piece that got scanned, now it's 26.77mm on my final design.
It does not suck out all the air, because the backbore is actually not that open.