Bach Experts, I need your help!
- Jose999
- Posts: 43
- Joined: Jan 22, 2019
hey all!
I'm currently playing in a V.Bach Stradivarius 42g from 1990, 8.5" gold brass bell, tradicinal rotor closed wrap, I think
the slide is nicker silver. I know the old bach's had a very special sound which is not commond to find in new brands but, how would you describe the bell or the slide in terms of new brands like shires or Edwards? I mean, is the slide more similar than a tw47 a t47 or a tb47? what about the crook?, is the bell 85/15 like the new ones? is the bell more similar than a Lw a Mw or a Hw? if you have other similities to consider let me know please.
I'm currently playing in a V.Bach Stradivarius 42g from 1990, 8.5" gold brass bell, tradicinal rotor closed wrap, I think
the slide is nicker silver. I know the old bach's had a very special sound which is not commond to find in new brands but, how would you describe the bell or the slide in terms of new brands like shires or Edwards? I mean, is the slide more similar than a tw47 a t47 or a tb47? what about the crook?, is the bell 85/15 like the new ones? is the bell more similar than a Lw a Mw or a Hw? if you have other similities to consider let me know please.
- Burgerbob
- Posts: 6327
- Joined: Apr 23, 2018
Honestly, nothing made by the boutique makers is exactly the same.
However, a nickel slide with bass crook will be the most similar, paired with a one piece gold (or rose brass, from Edwards) bell, or the closest two-piece bell. There's nothing like the closed wrap Bach rotor available, but the AR valve from Edwards or the dual-bore from Shires might be close.
However, a nickel slide with bass crook will be the most similar, paired with a one piece gold (or rose brass, from Edwards) bell, or the closest two-piece bell. There's nothing like the closed wrap Bach rotor available, but the AR valve from Edwards or the dual-bore from Shires might be close.
- Elow
- Posts: 1924
- Joined: Mar 02, 2020
All of the corp 42 bells that i have played have had lighter ish bells, but i’ve only played 4 and owned half that.
- Jose999
- Posts: 43
- Joined: Jan 22, 2019
[quote="Burgerbob"]Honestly, nothing made by the boutique makers is exactly the same.
However, a nickel slide with bass crook will be the most similar, paired with a one piece gold (or rose brass, from Edwards) bell, or the closest two-piece bell. There's nothing like the closed wrap Bach rotor available, but the AR valve from Edwards or the dual-bore from Shires might be close.[/quote]
Thanks Aidan! only one question What would you say about the bell weight? :shuffle:
by the way I'm not traying to "recreate" the horn, this is only information to have a broader vision of what I am playing and What I want to play.
However, a nickel slide with bass crook will be the most similar, paired with a one piece gold (or rose brass, from Edwards) bell, or the closest two-piece bell. There's nothing like the closed wrap Bach rotor available, but the AR valve from Edwards or the dual-bore from Shires might be close.[/quote]
Thanks Aidan! only one question What would you say about the bell weight? :shuffle:
by the way I'm not traying to "recreate" the horn, this is only information to have a broader vision of what I am playing and What I want to play.
- Burgerbob
- Posts: 6327
- Joined: Apr 23, 2018
[quote="Jose999"]<QUOTE author="Burgerbob" post_id="142200" time="1614547040" user_id="3131">
Honestly, nothing made by the boutique makers is exactly the same.
However, a nickel slide with bass crook will be the most similar, paired with a one piece gold (or rose brass, from Edwards) bell, or the closest two-piece bell. There's nothing like the closed wrap Bach rotor available, but the AR valve from Edwards or the dual-bore from Shires might be close.[/quote]
Thanks Aidan! only one question What would you say about the bell weight? :shuffle:
by the way I'm not traying to "recreate" the horn, this is only information to have a broader vision of what I am playing and What I want to play.
</QUOTE>
Bach bell weights are all over the place. Usually gold bells are one "size" thicker than yellow of the same era. I've had a Corp 42G that was pretty thick, for example. Your '90s horn may be on the thicker side, since on average... very broadly... '90s bells can be thicker than some other vintages.
Honestly, nothing made by the boutique makers is exactly the same.
However, a nickel slide with bass crook will be the most similar, paired with a one piece gold (or rose brass, from Edwards) bell, or the closest two-piece bell. There's nothing like the closed wrap Bach rotor available, but the AR valve from Edwards or the dual-bore from Shires might be close.[/quote]
Thanks Aidan! only one question What would you say about the bell weight? :shuffle:
by the way I'm not traying to "recreate" the horn, this is only information to have a broader vision of what I am playing and What I want to play.
</QUOTE>
Bach bell weights are all over the place. Usually gold bells are one "size" thicker than yellow of the same era. I've had a Corp 42G that was pretty thick, for example. Your '90s horn may be on the thicker side, since on average... very broadly... '90s bells can be thicker than some other vintages.
- GabrielRice
- Posts: 1496
- Joined: Mar 23, 2018
I used to do sales for the Shires company. Not all the options available now were available then, but here's what I would ideally put together as a starting point for comparison:
TB47NLW slide, starting with a 1.5 leadpipe
Standard rotary valve
yellow brass X tuning slide
TII 5GM T8 bell
And then, of course, we would try other things as well.
TB47NLW slide, starting with a 1.5 leadpipe
Standard rotary valve
yellow brass X tuning slide
TII 5GM T8 bell
And then, of course, we would try other things as well.
- hornbuilder
- Posts: 1384
- Joined: May 02, 2018
And in M&W speak.
322-1G-NN(B)
1 piece gold brass bell, soldered small French Bead.
Lightweight nickel tube slide with bass nickel crook.
322-1G-NN(B)
1 piece gold brass bell, soldered small French Bead.
Lightweight nickel tube slide with bass nickel crook.
- JoeAumann
- Posts: 84
- Joined: Sep 10, 2018
[quote="Jose999"]I know the old bach's had a very special sound which is not commond to find in new brands[/quote]
I would like to push back on this, and I'm as much of a "Bach-guy" as anyone.
I really don't think this is true. There are special Bach instruments for sure, but many "new brands" have a special sound, and is common to experience. People often buy in to some sort of mystique about Bachs that is probably foolish. Take M&W instruments for example (right above). Every one of them I have tried are excellent instruments with a special sound. They are the most fabulous sounding instruments I have experienced. (And I have a stable of Bach Stradivarius that you'd be hard pressed to find better examples of each model I own.)
I would like to push back on this, and I'm as much of a "Bach-guy" as anyone.
I really don't think this is true. There are special Bach instruments for sure, but many "new brands" have a special sound, and is common to experience. People often buy in to some sort of mystique about Bachs that is probably foolish. Take M&W instruments for example (right above). Every one of them I have tried are excellent instruments with a special sound. They are the most fabulous sounding instruments I have experienced. (And I have a stable of Bach Stradivarius that you'd be hard pressed to find better examples of each model I own.)
- WGWTR180
- Posts: 2152
- Joined: Sep 04, 2019
[quote="JoeAumann"]<QUOTE author="Jose999" post_id="142198" time="1614546522" user_id="4360">
I know the old bach's had a very special sound which is not commond to find in new brands[/quote]
I would like to push back on this, and I'm as much of a "Bach-guy" as anyone.
I really don't think this is true. There are special Bach instruments for sure, but many "new brands" have a special sound, and is common to experience. People often buy in to some sort of mystique about Bachs that is probably foolish. Take M&W instruments for example (right above). Every one of them I have tried are excellent instruments with a special sound. They are the most fabulous sounding instruments I have experienced. (And I have a stable of Bach Stradivarius that you'd be hard pressed to find better examples of each model I own.)
</QUOTE>
At lot of sound is the player. When I play a great Bach the sound IS unlike any modern instrument I've played to date. The mystique is what each individual hears but to think that it's foolish is foolish.
I know the old bach's had a very special sound which is not commond to find in new brands[/quote]
I would like to push back on this, and I'm as much of a "Bach-guy" as anyone.
I really don't think this is true. There are special Bach instruments for sure, but many "new brands" have a special sound, and is common to experience. People often buy in to some sort of mystique about Bachs that is probably foolish. Take M&W instruments for example (right above). Every one of them I have tried are excellent instruments with a special sound. They are the most fabulous sounding instruments I have experienced. (And I have a stable of Bach Stradivarius that you'd be hard pressed to find better examples of each model I own.)
</QUOTE>
At lot of sound is the player. When I play a great Bach the sound IS unlike any modern instrument I've played to date. The mystique is what each individual hears but to think that it's foolish is foolish.
- Burgerbob
- Posts: 6327
- Joined: Apr 23, 2018
[quote="WGWTR180"]<QUOTE author="JoeAumann" post_id="142242" time="1614572243" user_id="3720">
I would like to push back on this, and I'm as much of a "Bach-guy" as anyone.
I really don't think this is true. There are special Bach instruments for sure, but many "new brands" have a special sound, and is common to experience. People often buy in to some sort of mystique about Bachs that is probably foolish. Take M&W instruments for example (right above). Every one of them I have tried are excellent instruments with a special sound. They are the most fabulous sounding instruments I have experienced. (And I have a stable of Bach Stradivarius that you'd be hard pressed to find better examples of each model I own.)[/quote]
At lot of sound is the player. When I play a great Bach the sound IS unlike any modern instrument I've played to date. The mystique is what each individual hears but to think that it's foolish is foolish.
</QUOTE>
:clever: :good:
I would like to push back on this, and I'm as much of a "Bach-guy" as anyone.
I really don't think this is true. There are special Bach instruments for sure, but many "new brands" have a special sound, and is common to experience. People often buy in to some sort of mystique about Bachs that is probably foolish. Take M&W instruments for example (right above). Every one of them I have tried are excellent instruments with a special sound. They are the most fabulous sounding instruments I have experienced. (And I have a stable of Bach Stradivarius that you'd be hard pressed to find better examples of each model I own.)[/quote]
At lot of sound is the player. When I play a great Bach the sound IS unlike any modern instrument I've played to date. The mystique is what each individual hears but to think that it's foolish is foolish.
</QUOTE>
:clever: :good:
- JoeAumann
- Posts: 84
- Joined: Sep 10, 2018
[quote="WGWTR180"]
At lot of sound is the player. When I play a great Bach the sound IS unlike any modern instrument I've played to date. The mystique is what each individual hears but to think that it's foolish is foolish.[/quote]
I didn't mean to offend your Bach-sensibilities, but to say that it is not common to find a special sound in new brands, is simply not true.
At lot of sound is the player. When I play a great Bach the sound IS unlike any modern instrument I've played to date. The mystique is what each individual hears but to think that it's foolish is foolish.[/quote]
I didn't mean to offend your Bach-sensibilities, but to say that it is not common to find a special sound in new brands, is simply not true.
- FOSSIL
- Posts: 688
- Joined: Jul 09, 2019
Quite simply, ALL makes of trombone have their own character. Years ago, some new to the market makers claimed they could 'clone' popular makes and model of trombone , which was simply rubbish. Unfortunately, this prompted a belief that it was possible to clone another makers product amoungst the trombone playing masses.
It's all about marketing.
Chris
It's all about marketing.
Chris
- Burgerbob
- Posts: 6327
- Joined: Apr 23, 2018
[quote="JoeAumann"]<QUOTE author="WGWTR180" post_id="142253" time="1614603631" user_id="7573">
At lot of sound is the player. When I play a great Bach the sound IS unlike any modern instrument I've played to date. The mystique is what each individual hears but to think that it's foolish is foolish.[/quote]
I didn't mean to offend your Bach-sensibilities, but to say that it is not common to find a special sound in new brands, is simply not true.
</QUOTE>
You can find special sounds, but you won't find the Bach sound in those other brands. I think that's the point we're trying to make.
At lot of sound is the player. When I play a great Bach the sound IS unlike any modern instrument I've played to date. The mystique is what each individual hears but to think that it's foolish is foolish.[/quote]
I didn't mean to offend your Bach-sensibilities, but to say that it is not common to find a special sound in new brands, is simply not true.
</QUOTE>
You can find special sounds, but you won't find the Bach sound in those other brands. I think that's the point we're trying to make.
- harrisonreed
- Posts: 6479
- Joined: Aug 17, 2018
Bach sound? You mean that "sock got stuck somewhere in the slide crook but I can't find it" sound?
... Oh look, there's the door. Moving to the door.
... Oh look, there's the door. Moving to the door.
- WGWTR180
- Posts: 2152
- Joined: Sep 04, 2019
[quote="JoeAumann"]<QUOTE author="WGWTR180" post_id="142253" time="1614603631" user_id="7573">
At lot of sound is the player. When I play a great Bach the sound IS unlike any modern instrument I've played to date. The mystique is what each individual hears but to think that it's foolish is foolish.[/quote]
I didn't mean to offend your Bach-sensibilities, but to say that it is not common to find a special sound in new brands, is simply not true.
</QUOTE>
Joe I read your post differently I guess. I was comparing vintage Bach sounds to modern sounds. I thought you were doing the same. My point is that personally I haven't found a modern instrument where I can achieve a classic Bach sound. If I have that classic Bach sound in my head then that's what I have. My first bass bone was a Bach 50BG. If you want to call the sound special that's fine. I'd refer to it as unique to the specific brand. But then again you can ask 5 trombonists to play 1 instrument they'll probably each sound a bit different.
At lot of sound is the player. When I play a great Bach the sound IS unlike any modern instrument I've played to date. The mystique is what each individual hears but to think that it's foolish is foolish.[/quote]
I didn't mean to offend your Bach-sensibilities, but to say that it is not common to find a special sound in new brands, is simply not true.
</QUOTE>
Joe I read your post differently I guess. I was comparing vintage Bach sounds to modern sounds. I thought you were doing the same. My point is that personally I haven't found a modern instrument where I can achieve a classic Bach sound. If I have that classic Bach sound in my head then that's what I have. My first bass bone was a Bach 50BG. If you want to call the sound special that's fine. I'd refer to it as unique to the specific brand. But then again you can ask 5 trombonists to play 1 instrument they'll probably each sound a bit different.
- WGWTR180
- Posts: 2152
- Joined: Sep 04, 2019
[quote="harrisonreed"]Bach sound? You mean that "sock got stuck somewhere in the slide crook but I can't find it" sound?
... Oh look, there's the door. Moving to the door.[/quote]
As opposed to white noise on a stick?? :biggrin: :biggrin:
(It's a joke, it's a joke)
... Oh look, there's the door. Moving to the door.[/quote]
As opposed to white noise on a stick?? :biggrin: :biggrin:
(It's a joke, it's a joke)
- harrisonreed
- Posts: 6479
- Joined: Aug 17, 2018
[quote="WGWTR180"]<QUOTE author="harrisonreed" post_id="142324" time="1614690863" user_id="3642">
Bach sound? You mean that "sock got stuck somewhere in the slide crook but I can't find it" sound?
... Oh look, there's the door. Moving to the door.[/quote]
As opposed to white noise on a stick?? :biggrin: :biggrin:
(It's a joke, it's a joke)
</QUOTE>
*Not listening! I can't he-AR youuu. I already left out the door I spotted! Wait a minute --WHAT did you call me??!?*
:mrgreen:
Bach sound? You mean that "sock got stuck somewhere in the slide crook but I can't find it" sound?
... Oh look, there's the door. Moving to the door.[/quote]
As opposed to white noise on a stick?? :biggrin: :biggrin:
(It's a joke, it's a joke)
</QUOTE>
*Not listening! I can't he-AR youuu. I already left out the door I spotted! Wait a minute --WHAT did you call me??!?*
:mrgreen:
- elmsandr
- Posts: 1373
- Joined: Mar 23, 2018
[quote="Burgerbob"]You can find special sounds, but you won't find the Bach sound in those other brands. I think that's the point we're trying to make.[/quote]
Related, as I have done this, you get closer with the Bach flare... but not quite there. Tuning slide is pretty big part of it. At least, it was on the bass I did.
I did like that horn a lot. Still kinda bummed that I sold it, but I just preferred the full Bach experience and one can only horde so many horns.
Cheers,
Andy
Related, as I have done this, you get closer with the Bach flare... but not quite there. Tuning slide is pretty big part of it. At least, it was on the bass I did.
I did like that horn a lot. Still kinda bummed that I sold it, but I just preferred the full Bach experience and one can only horde so many horns.
Cheers,
Andy