Contra Hagmann Valves

NoahDavis4444 · by **NoahDavis4444** » 2021-03-18 7:33 p.m.

I have one of those Chinese copy contras with the hagmann valves that I bought from O'Malley's. The valves are subpar and stick frequently. It's a good sounding horn and great for the price but the valve problems are debilitating for me. How could I disassemble them to clean and what type of oil should I use on them? I've been using rotor oil but I've seen that piston oil might be better. Any advice is welcome! Thanks!

Bonearzt · by **Bonearzt** » 2021-03-18 7:38 p.m.

While they do play rather well for that level of horn, the valves are dismal!

Even when clean and maintained, they can be problematic!

Hetman #13 for the spindle, and #1 or 2 for inside the valve body usually works well.

I found it's not ridiculously expensive to get a replacement valve or 2 for them, although it does take a bit of surgery to install.

NoahDavis4444 · by **NoahDavis4444** » 2021-03-18 11:00 p.m.

[quote="Bonearzt"]While they do play rather well for that level of horn, the valves are dismal!

Even when clean and maintained, they can be problematic!

Hetman #13 for the spindle, and #1 or 2 for inside the valve body usually works well.

I found it's not ridiculously expensive to get a replacement valve or 2 for them, although it does take a bit of surgery to install.[/quote]

Thanks Eric! I'll try some different oils. I wouldn't trust myself with a valve replacement haha

brassmedic · by **brassmedic** » 2021-03-19 1:52 p.m.

Yep, those valves are not good. Even real Hagmanns are finicky as hell. It was a huge mistake for them to try to do a cheap copy of Hagmanns. Should have gone for something simpler. They look like Hagmann valves, but that's where the comparison ends. I've seen a couple of these contras where the resting position of the valve core had the ports only lined up about 50%. :eek:

If you do try to take them apart, I would suggest taking a picture of how the spindle, stop arm, and spring go together first. It's kind of tricky to put back together.

WGWTR180 · by **WGWTR180** » 2021-04-18 3:28 p.m.

Another oil to try is TrombaT2 which is recommended by Hagmann. Worth a shot.

olivegreenink · by **olivegreenink** » 2021-04-20 7:48 p.m.

[quote="WGWTR180"]Another oil to try is TrombaT2 which is recommended by Hagmann. Worth a shot.[/quote]

HUGE fan of TrombaT2 oil for piston valves FWIW. :)

LeTromboniste · 2021-04-21 5:01 a.m.

Yeah those Hagmann copies are dreadful. I remember when my local store got their home brand contra. The spindles were not soldered to the valve cores. So the valves weren't only rotating in their casing but also around the spindles!! They had all sort of alignment issues and bad tolerances. My friend who worked there as a tech told me they spent well over $1K worth of work time on that horn just to make the valves work.

Your experience will probably be very different with those copies, but for what it's worth, having played with Hagmann valves a lot, I found that the best option was Hetman 11 "light rotor oil" for both the valve and the spindle. Like Eric above, my tech also recommended 13 for the spindle, but it always slowed down my valve noticeably compared to using generous amounts of 11 instead. That's also what Hagmann recommended to me (using the same light oil everywhere rather than heavier oil on the spindle).

T2 as recommended by Hagmann also worked well but only as long as the valve was super clean. I found that with smallest amount of oxydation, the oil became a bit gritty.

Crazy4Tbone86 · by **Crazy4Tbone86** » 2021-04-22 10:11 a.m.

Wow...those valves sound like a nightmare. I don't see too many contra basses, even when I gig near DC and Baltimore. I have only had one contra come through my shop for a chemical clean/dent work and it was a Thein. Thus, it had the "real" Hagmann valves and was a simple job.

Now I know.....beware of the contras with "Fake" Hagmanns!

Matt_K · by **Matt_K** » 2021-04-23 2:25 p.m.

I just had my tech disassemble my Wessex alto for some frankenbone assembly. When it was made, it was clearly put in a vice and forced to fit in the position it was because the bell brace is actually wider than the span it's supposed to fit in. There was like 100lbs of solder to hold it in place. I would be surprised if any of the Contras are in much better shape. If I wanted a contra on the cheap, I'd probably do what Eric suggested and budget a replacement set of valves and labor to put them on in addition to the horn. You still come out way ahead and probably with something that's... 75-80% of the way of a pro horn.

Burgerbob · by **Burgerbob** » 2021-04-23 10:37 p.m.

Since Wessex sells a contra with rotors now, there isn't much reason to change one of the "hagmann" ones.

Matt_K · by **Matt_K** » 2021-04-23 11:36 p.m.

Hm... their camera person seems to not know which way the slide goes:

<ATTACHMENT filename="PF588L_0165-min.jpg" index="0">~~[attachment=0]~~PF588L_0165-min.jpg</ATTACHMENT>

Edit: upon further inspection, half the pictures are left handed and half right handed. Maybe they make a... left handed contra? :???:

BGuttman · by **BGuttman** » 2021-04-23 11:55 p.m.

It's easy to make a left-right swap of a transparency (slide). Back in the "bad old days" of "analog" photography it was not unusual for somebody to place a transparency inverted; especially if there is no text to provide a hint of how it goes. This looks like a lateral inversion.

Crazy4Tbone86 · by **Crazy4Tbone86** » 2021-04-26 9:54 a.m.

I like that the Wessex is sold with multiple slides for both of the rotors. That's a nice option for someone like me who might buy a contra and experiment with the different valve tuning options. However (as someone has already noted), the instrument is probably assembled with an excessive amount of stress. It might be worth it to buy one and have a tech take it apart and reassemble it stress free!

SmeeJim · by **SmeeJim** » 2023-04-28 1:10 p.m.

I am new to TromboneChat. And I appreciate the info given here about the O'Malley Contrabass. I am buying one from a guy who bought his in High school and let it sit for years. He said there is a problem with the rotor. So, now I already know where to start.

WGWTR180 · by **WGWTR180** » 2023-04-29 10:29 p.m.

[quote="SmeeJim"]I am new to TromboneChat. And I appreciate the info given here about the O'Malley Contrabass. I am buying one from a guy who bought his in High school and let it sit for years. He said there is a problem with the rotor. So, now I already know where to start.[/quote]
If only it were a rotor.

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Contra Hagmann Valves