techniques to improve your sound?
- Jose999
- Posts: 43
- Joined: Jan 22, 2019
Hi, My teacher is really fan of two diferents techniques: flurato and bending (false note) according to him this techniques can "improve you sound" and help in increase your register.
Does anyone do thes? What do you think about working on these type of exercises? Thanks.
Does anyone do thes? What do you think about working on these type of exercises? Thanks.
- Elow
- Posts: 1924
- Joined: Mar 02, 2020
I played false tone scales daily for my low range and i think it helped open up my sound. Still not happy with it, but i actually sound like a bass trombone now
- harrisonreed
- Posts: 6479
- Joined: Aug 17, 2018
My technique is:
1. Stop free buzzing and mouthpiece buzzing. Today. Bends and false tones are pretty much the same thing as buzzing, so those don't help either. Why use tricks to try and open up your sound, when you just have to unlearn the habit that trick creates to play with a pure sound?
2. Start working on easy lip slurs. These are the most important thing, especially in the low register. Learn to play with a good sound with the rest of the horn attached to the mouthpiece.
3. Learn to tune your oral cavity to the register you're playing in, eventually you can tune it for each pitch to get the purest sound.
1. Stop free buzzing and mouthpiece buzzing. Today. Bends and false tones are pretty much the same thing as buzzing, so those don't help either. Why use tricks to try and open up your sound, when you just have to unlearn the habit that trick creates to play with a pure sound?
2. Start working on easy lip slurs. These are the most important thing, especially in the low register. Learn to play with a good sound with the rest of the horn attached to the mouthpiece.
3. Learn to tune your oral cavity to the register you're playing in, eventually you can tune it for each pitch to get the purest sound.
- Savio
- Posts: 688
- Joined: Apr 26, 2018
I can't say I actually know how to practice to improve sound, but one important aspect is to listen good players. Make a picture of what a good sound is. I also believe in playing melodies. Try to make the trombone sing. What technical aspects we need can be different for each one of us?
Leif
Leif
- Burgerbob
- Posts: 6327
- Joined: Apr 23, 2018
[quote="harrisonreed"]My technique is:
1. Stop free buzzing and mouthpiece buzzing. Today. Bends and false tones are pretty much the same thing as buzzing, so those don't help either. Why use tricks to try and open up your sound, when you just have to unlearn the habit that trick creates to play with a pure sound?
[/quote]
I'd have to disagree there, I had hit a total wall in my playing development until I learned how to freebuzz and how it related to the instrument.
1. Stop free buzzing and mouthpiece buzzing. Today. Bends and false tones are pretty much the same thing as buzzing, so those don't help either. Why use tricks to try and open up your sound, when you just have to unlearn the habit that trick creates to play with a pure sound?
[/quote]
I'd have to disagree there, I had hit a total wall in my playing development until I learned how to freebuzz and how it related to the instrument.
- ithinknot
- Posts: 1339
- Joined: Jul 24, 2020
[quote="harrisonreed"]Bends and false tones are pretty much the same thing as buzzing, so those don't help either.
...
3. Learn to tune your oral cavity to the register you're playing in, eventually you can tune it for each pitch to get the purest sound.[/quote]
I'm not going to get into the buzzing debate, but I'm pretty sure false tones etc are much more closely related to your point [3] than you suggest. The impedance of the instrument is there, so it's hardly analagous to freebuzzing. Flattening pedals is probably 'too easy' (or achievable through too many different means unrelated to oral resonance), but persuading the instrument to nail 2nd partial false tones (or bends elsewhere) surely relies on one's command of [3].
...
3. Learn to tune your oral cavity to the register you're playing in, eventually you can tune it for each pitch to get the purest sound.[/quote]
I'm not going to get into the buzzing debate, but I'm pretty sure false tones etc are much more closely related to your point [3] than you suggest. The impedance of the instrument is there, so it's hardly analagous to freebuzzing. Flattening pedals is probably 'too easy' (or achievable through too many different means unrelated to oral resonance), but persuading the instrument to nail 2nd partial false tones (or bends elsewhere) surely relies on one's command of [3].
- Pre59
- Posts: 372
- Joined: May 12, 2018
Going "old school" here, but playing long tones in the register that you wish to improve used to be a thing. Works for me.
- Jose999
- Posts: 43
- Joined: Jan 22, 2019
I appreciated all the replys but I think the question has deviated in ways of improving the sound, I would like to delve into the bending and flurato techniques, exeperiences and thougts working on this techniques, if you think are useless or not or whatever. Thanks!
- Kdanielsen
- Posts: 609
- Joined: Jul 28, 2019
Listen to as much live and recorded trombone music as you can, especially players that inspire you. Listen to Joe (or whoever), then play, within a few seconds. Notice.
Listen listen listen.
Listen listen listen.
- Doug_Elliott
- Posts: 4155
- Joined: Mar 22, 2018
Bending - depends on how you do it. The effectiveness of anything depends on how you do it.
I have never heard the term flurato but I think it's flutter tongue. I have heard of players doing that for sound but I haven't.
As an alternate technique to develop sound, I will also throw in multiphonics.
I have never heard the term flurato but I think it's flutter tongue. I have heard of players doing that for sound but I haven't.
As an alternate technique to develop sound, I will also throw in multiphonics.
- harrisonreed
- Posts: 6479
- Joined: Aug 17, 2018
[quote="Jose999"]I appreciated all the replys but I think the question has deviated in ways of improving the sound, I would like to delve into the bending and flurato techniques, exeperiences and thougts working on this techniques, if you think are useless or not or whatever. Thanks![/quote]
Sure, specific thoughts on bending notes ( I see false tones as the same thing):
Bending notes trains you to play the trombone like it is a megaphone for your lips buzzing. The goal for a pure sound is to get the length of tube that is the trombone vibrating perfectly with what that length of tubing needs to vibrate at. Trying to bend the tone with your chops without changing the tube length is an ultimately fruitless endeavor, because the further you bend, the less the sound is being made by the air in the trombone vibrating, and the more it is being made by your lips buzzing in the mouthpiece. Perhaps it teaches you how to make the trombone sound worse, so you can know what direction that lies in and avoid it.
The best teachers I've had taught to blow straight where you felt the horn want slot, and keep it right there. If it's not immediately in tune, adjust with the slide. Adjusting/worsening intonation with bends (on purpose) doesn't train you to blow right in the middle of the slot, and it doesn't train you to tune (intonation is highly related to "tone") better with your slide hand. It is not practicing playing where the horn sounds great, but is instead practicing a sort of gross sound. Imagine getting good enough at it where you can play "in tune" without adjusting much with the slide at all, and using your face for everything -- like intermediate players do! They don't know how to blow in the slot and use imprecise positions, and adjust everything with their face. That's why they sound like amateurs.
There are some that say it will build strength in your face -- these muscles are not supposed to be strong muscles. Brass playing is about minute changes to tiny muscles, repeatability, and letting the horn do the work for you. Bending notes is about the opposite of that -- large changes to tiny muscle groups, "how far can I go??", and fighting the horn the whole way.
Why would you waste time on that?
Just saw Doug's comment on multiphonics! Yes! Especially in the trigger range.
Sure, specific thoughts on bending notes ( I see false tones as the same thing):
Bending notes trains you to play the trombone like it is a megaphone for your lips buzzing. The goal for a pure sound is to get the length of tube that is the trombone vibrating perfectly with what that length of tubing needs to vibrate at. Trying to bend the tone with your chops without changing the tube length is an ultimately fruitless endeavor, because the further you bend, the less the sound is being made by the air in the trombone vibrating, and the more it is being made by your lips buzzing in the mouthpiece. Perhaps it teaches you how to make the trombone sound worse, so you can know what direction that lies in and avoid it.
The best teachers I've had taught to blow straight where you felt the horn want slot, and keep it right there. If it's not immediately in tune, adjust with the slide. Adjusting/worsening intonation with bends (on purpose) doesn't train you to blow right in the middle of the slot, and it doesn't train you to tune (intonation is highly related to "tone") better with your slide hand. It is not practicing playing where the horn sounds great, but is instead practicing a sort of gross sound. Imagine getting good enough at it where you can play "in tune" without adjusting much with the slide at all, and using your face for everything -- like intermediate players do! They don't know how to blow in the slot and use imprecise positions, and adjust everything with their face. That's why they sound like amateurs.
There are some that say it will build strength in your face -- these muscles are not supposed to be strong muscles. Brass playing is about minute changes to tiny muscles, repeatability, and letting the horn do the work for you. Bending notes is about the opposite of that -- large changes to tiny muscle groups, "how far can I go??", and fighting the horn the whole way.
Why would you waste time on that?
Just saw Doug's comment on multiphonics! Yes! Especially in the trigger range.
- baileyman
- Posts: 1169
- Joined: Mar 24, 2018
If I had to do it all over again I would focus entirely on getting the full range to sound without effort. After that, working on great sound would be a breeze.
I say this because it seems there are many ways to play a note "with great sound" that may not work elsewhere on the horn. It seems there are "great sound" dead ends, and I think I've gone down a few.
I say this because it seems there are many ways to play a note "with great sound" that may not work elsewhere on the horn. It seems there are "great sound" dead ends, and I think I've gone down a few.
- Basbasun
- Posts: 496
- Joined: Mar 26, 2018
Yes flurato is another name for flutter tongue. But maybe you mean buzzing?
Actually "flurato" can be used, buzzing can be used, false tones (lipbending) can be used. Those thing can be good.
And bad if you aren´t doing them right.
Listen to good players, Joe Alessin is mentioned ( a fan of buzzing) and Bill Watrous ( a fan of buzzing and false tones) there are many good players. If your teacher sounds good, his advises may be good.
The false tones (Bill Watrous did call them half overtoneseries) are existing resonances in the horn, if you find them they feel secure and steady. many trombonists use them, for practice and peformances.
To say this a good or this is bad is impossible. It all dependes how it is done. I hear lots of players doing this thing very good, then it is probably good for their sound, others do the stuff with a bad sound, the it is probably not doing any good so far, but can maybe better. Lip bending can mean lots of things, the false tones are not really lip bending.
Actually "flurato" can be used, buzzing can be used, false tones (lipbending) can be used. Those thing can be good.
And bad if you aren´t doing them right.
Listen to good players, Joe Alessin is mentioned ( a fan of buzzing) and Bill Watrous ( a fan of buzzing and false tones) there are many good players. If your teacher sounds good, his advises may be good.
The false tones (Bill Watrous did call them half overtoneseries) are existing resonances in the horn, if you find them they feel secure and steady. many trombonists use them, for practice and peformances.
To say this a good or this is bad is impossible. It all dependes how it is done. I hear lots of players doing this thing very good, then it is probably good for their sound, others do the stuff with a bad sound, the it is probably not doing any good so far, but can maybe better. Lip bending can mean lots of things, the false tones are not really lip bending.
- Kbiggs
- Posts: 1768
- Joined: Mar 24, 2018
For me, there’s a slight difference between false tones—sometimes called factitious, fictional, false pedals, Watrous’s half overtones, etc.—and tone bending. The factitious tones lie about a major third below the 1st overtone (low B-flat). If you play in 1st position, you can lip down to get a G-flat, play in 2nd position and lip down to F, etc.
“Tone bending” is also useful, where you bend the tone down from B-flat to an A, then A-flat, etc. Marstellar advocated that, as have many other players and teachers. I suppose you could say that the factitious tones are an extension of tone bending.
I think both factitious tones and tone bending can be helpful to develop a more resonant, full, focused sound. Playing around with these tones can help to find the most resonant place in the embouchure and tongue placement, if done correctly.
I have heard about flutter-tongue to help with relaxation, but not tone development. I tried it for a little while and didn’t seen any benefits. FWIW, I’ve known people who aren’t able to flutter tongue but had a gorgeous sound. The exception that proves the rule, I suppose.
“Tone bending” is also useful, where you bend the tone down from B-flat to an A, then A-flat, etc. Marstellar advocated that, as have many other players and teachers. I suppose you could say that the factitious tones are an extension of tone bending.
I think both factitious tones and tone bending can be helpful to develop a more resonant, full, focused sound. Playing around with these tones can help to find the most resonant place in the embouchure and tongue placement, if done correctly.
I have heard about flutter-tongue to help with relaxation, but not tone development. I tried it for a little while and didn’t seen any benefits. FWIW, I’ve known people who aren’t able to flutter tongue but had a gorgeous sound. The exception that proves the rule, I suppose.
- VJOFan
- Posts: 529
- Joined: Apr 06, 2018
It's taken me forever to understand what any "exercise" is really about.
Before doing any exercise (lip slurs, push ups, stretches, long tones, bench press, major scale patterns) know the performance or functional improvement you expect to see from it.
Then look at what the exercise makes you do, and at what your ultimate goal is.
It should be possible to decide if a particular exercise will train your body or mind in a way that shapes you toward a better version of your target performance. Analyze what it takes to do the thing you want to do and look at how the exercise can or cannot help you get there.
In this case, tone comes from an efficient buzz, fueled by an appropriate air stream, being amplified or resonated (my vocabulary fails here) -enhanced or shaped by/in the cavities of your horn and body. Does your exercise help you discover, control or improve the function of any of this?
Before doing any exercise (lip slurs, push ups, stretches, long tones, bench press, major scale patterns) know the performance or functional improvement you expect to see from it.
Then look at what the exercise makes you do, and at what your ultimate goal is.
It should be possible to decide if a particular exercise will train your body or mind in a way that shapes you toward a better version of your target performance. Analyze what it takes to do the thing you want to do and look at how the exercise can or cannot help you get there.
In this case, tone comes from an efficient buzz, fueled by an appropriate air stream, being amplified or resonated (my vocabulary fails here) -enhanced or shaped by/in the cavities of your horn and body. Does your exercise help you discover, control or improve the function of any of this?
- WilliamLang
- Posts: 636
- Joined: Nov 22, 2019
i find that flutter tongueing and bending can help on occasion when i'm not finding the "center" or core of the sound. it can be a useful diagnostic after tuning to make sure that the lips are centered sound wise.
personally i find that i use this about 2-3x a year when chops aren't feeling particularly good, and i want to eliminate some reasons why.
hope that helps!
personally i find that i use this about 2-3x a year when chops aren't feeling particularly good, and i want to eliminate some reasons why.
hope that helps!
- Savio
- Posts: 688
- Joined: Apr 26, 2018
There is no shortcut. There is no tricks either. Listen is the first thing. Then practice to get the sound you love. Without an aim you shoot in the blind..
[url]https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=V_XlYnldXYE
This is maybe the most wonderful trombone sound there is......
Leif
This is maybe the most wonderful trombone sound there is......
Leif
- robcat2075
- Posts: 1867
- Joined: Sep 03, 2018
[quote="Jose999"]... according to him this techniques can "improve you sound" and help in increase your register.[/quote]
This sounds about as good as the claims made for wrinkle creams in late-night infomercials.
Did he offer any time frame for when improvements would appear?
"Eventually"? :idk:
How much fluratulence did he say you have to do? :shuffle:
You're obviously not going to sound better while you are doing these things so... how long afterward is the improvement supposed to happen?
This sounds about as good as the claims made for wrinkle creams in late-night infomercials.
Did he offer any time frame for when improvements would appear?
"Eventually"? :idk:
How much fluratulence did he say you have to do? :shuffle:
You're obviously not going to sound better while you are doing these things so... how long afterward is the improvement supposed to happen?
- WilliamLang
- Posts: 636
- Joined: Nov 22, 2019
these are not tricks or shortcuts - they can be good diagnostic tools for some people when used in moderation.
- Basbasun
- Posts: 496
- Joined: Mar 26, 2018
I do think that the OP:s teacher teach lots of other things like the usual long tones flexibilitys scales and more. I don't think the flurato, bend tones, false tones are the only stuff the teacher suggest.
We don´t know.
We don´t know.
- timothy42b
- Posts: 1812
- Joined: Mar 27, 2018
[quote="Basbasun"]
Listen to good players, Joe Alessin is mentioned ( a fan of buzzing)
The false tones (Bill Watrous did call them half overtoneseries) are existing resonances in the horn, if you find them they feel secure and steady. many trombonists use them, for practice and peformances.
[/quote]
I was a few feet away from Joe Alessi at an ATW some years back. It was my impression that he plays in the center of the slot with a precision few people match, but maybe that's a key to his sound, and something to emulate.
Same with false tones except the slot is a lot harder to hear or feel.
Something I've noticed in my own playing: sometimes a recording sounds like good tone when my ear didn't think so. If we're trying to produce a sound but haven't calibrated our ears to hear it, might go down the wrong path.
Listen to good players, Joe Alessin is mentioned ( a fan of buzzing)
The false tones (Bill Watrous did call them half overtoneseries) are existing resonances in the horn, if you find them they feel secure and steady. many trombonists use them, for practice and peformances.
[/quote]
I was a few feet away from Joe Alessi at an ATW some years back. It was my impression that he plays in the center of the slot with a precision few people match, but maybe that's a key to his sound, and something to emulate.
Same with false tones except the slot is a lot harder to hear or feel.
Something I've noticed in my own playing: sometimes a recording sounds like good tone when my ear didn't think so. If we're trying to produce a sound but haven't calibrated our ears to hear it, might go down the wrong path.
- baileyman
- Posts: 1169
- Joined: Mar 24, 2018
[quote="timothy42b"]...
Something I've noticed in my own playing: sometimes a recording sounds like good tone when my ear didn't think so. If we're trying to produce a sound but haven't calibrated our ears to hear it, might go down the wrong path.[/quote]
Interesting point. Lately my buzz has been getting so loud in my head it's really hard for me to judge the "sound" very well. Rather, I can judge where I am in the slot, whether there is any junk in the buzz, whether there is any undue effort or unfamiliar muscle feel. But with that "WAAAANHNHNHN" going on in my head I just cannot hear the horn very well. But I have been told surprisingly complementary things about it nonetheless. I say, "I'm happy to hear that because I cannot hear it myself!"
Something I've noticed in my own playing: sometimes a recording sounds like good tone when my ear didn't think so. If we're trying to produce a sound but haven't calibrated our ears to hear it, might go down the wrong path.[/quote]
Interesting point. Lately my buzz has been getting so loud in my head it's really hard for me to judge the "sound" very well. Rather, I can judge where I am in the slot, whether there is any junk in the buzz, whether there is any undue effort or unfamiliar muscle feel. But with that "WAAAANHNHNHN" going on in my head I just cannot hear the horn very well. But I have been told surprisingly complementary things about it nonetheless. I say, "I'm happy to hear that because I cannot hear it myself!"
- Wilktone
- Posts: 720
- Joined: Mar 27, 2018
[quote="Jose999"]Hi, My teacher is really fan of two diferents techniques: flurato and bending (false note) according to him this techniques can "improve you sound" and help in increase your register.
Does anyone do thes? What do you think about working on these type of exercises? Thanks.[/quote]
[quote="Doug Elliott"]Bending - depends on how you do it. The effectiveness of anything depends on how you do it.[/quote]
Doug gave me a routine to work on by Donald Reinhardt called the "Elasticity Routine." The gist is to play gliss between notes as smoothly as possible without backing off on the air, mouthpiece pressure, etc. Rather than thinking of this as "bending" the note I think of this as playing between the partials. You're not just bending the notes down, but also pushing them up.
<GOOGLEDRIVE id="1-hMPtPH9Klgq3eBLCB3iigHb5EvBi6jH"><LINK_TEXT text="https://drive.google.com/file/d/1-hMPtP ... sp=sharing">https://drive.google.com/file/d/1-hMPtPH9Klgq3eBLCB3iigHb5EvBi6jH/view?usp=sharing</LINK_TEXT></GOOGLEDRIVE>
Dave
Does anyone do thes? What do you think about working on these type of exercises? Thanks.[/quote]
[quote="Doug Elliott"]Bending - depends on how you do it. The effectiveness of anything depends on how you do it.[/quote]
Doug gave me a routine to work on by Donald Reinhardt called the "Elasticity Routine." The gist is to play gliss between notes as smoothly as possible without backing off on the air, mouthpiece pressure, etc. Rather than thinking of this as "bending" the note I think of this as playing between the partials. You're not just bending the notes down, but also pushing them up.
<GOOGLEDRIVE id="1-hMPtPH9Klgq3eBLCB3iigHb5EvBi6jH"><LINK_TEXT text="https://drive.google.com/file/d/1-hMPtP ... sp=sharing">https://drive.google.com/file/d/1-hMPtPH9Klgq3eBLCB3iigHb5EvBi6jH/view?usp=sharing</LINK_TEXT></GOOGLEDRIVE>
Dave
- baileyman
- Posts: 1169
- Joined: Mar 24, 2018
What is different about this than being able to freebuzz the same exercise?
- Doug_Elliott
- Posts: 4155
- Joined: Mar 22, 2018
What's different? It's not the same thing at all. It's relatively easy to freebuzz Bb, B, C, C#, D. Now try the same thing in 1st position.
- baileyman
- Posts: 1169
- Joined: Mar 24, 2018
Sure I get that. It's the buzz influenced by the feedback of the horn resonance. So what do you expect to learn by the centering effect of the partial?
- Wilktone
- Posts: 720
- Joined: Mar 27, 2018
[quote="baileyman"]What is different about this than being able to freebuzz the same exercise?[/quote]
With the Elasticity Routine you're not free buzzing with the mouthpiece barely contacting your lips, you're keeping the mouthpiece pressure up and forcing the instrument to play between the partials.
[quote="baileyman"]So what do you expect to learn by the centering effect of the partial?[/quote]
In part, it develops embouchure control, but it also makes you coordinate the tongue arch and air support to get the force the notes between the partials. Regarding developing tone, you are training the entire system (embouchure, air, tongue) to go where it needs to be to play a particular note, regardless of whether the slide is in the right spot. When you are in the correct position/fingering then everything is lined up and tone should be improved.
Dave
With the Elasticity Routine you're not free buzzing with the mouthpiece barely contacting your lips, you're keeping the mouthpiece pressure up and forcing the instrument to play between the partials.
[quote="baileyman"]So what do you expect to learn by the centering effect of the partial?[/quote]
In part, it develops embouchure control, but it also makes you coordinate the tongue arch and air support to get the force the notes between the partials. Regarding developing tone, you are training the entire system (embouchure, air, tongue) to go where it needs to be to play a particular note, regardless of whether the slide is in the right spot. When you are in the correct position/fingering then everything is lined up and tone should be improved.
Dave
- baileyman
- Posts: 1169
- Joined: Mar 24, 2018
It's sorta interesting. The buzz can do the pitch that the horn cannot. From the D it's fairly easy to get the C# buzz to sound like an okay horn C# (which I do frequently as what I think of as "semitone valve"). C basically does not sound and I'm not quite sure about B, but if you're buzzing the right pitch you can pull off on C# and B and find if indeed you are on that pitch or not.
If done as written (if I read between the lines of the missing commentary) one plays a centered Bb then while leaving the horn in Bb moves the buzz to the B etc. I suppose one who cannot freebuzz can do this to their satisfaction, but the feedback from the horn resonance makes it seem at least possible that the resulting buzz pitch may not in fact be on B even though the player thinks the overall system pitch out the bell in basically B. The freebuzzer could pull off and verify.
If on the other hand one freebuzzes the B, then adds the horn, then horn seems to cancel the buzz pitch, even if it feels like the thing is still going on the same pitch. One can then pull off to freebuzz and verify what is in fact happening.
If done as written (if I read between the lines of the missing commentary) one plays a centered Bb then while leaving the horn in Bb moves the buzz to the B etc. I suppose one who cannot freebuzz can do this to their satisfaction, but the feedback from the horn resonance makes it seem at least possible that the resulting buzz pitch may not in fact be on B even though the player thinks the overall system pitch out the bell in basically B. The freebuzzer could pull off and verify.
If on the other hand one freebuzzes the B, then adds the horn, then horn seems to cancel the buzz pitch, even if it feels like the thing is still going on the same pitch. One can then pull off to freebuzz and verify what is in fact happening.
- Doug_Elliott
- Posts: 4155
- Joined: Mar 22, 2018
It's not like freebuzzing at all and I don't think I would be able to "pull it off" and keep the pitch. And it's not like bending the pitch down. This exercise is just as much about bending the pitch up. Forcing pitches through the horn that it doesn't want to produce.
I don't expect most players to understand the value or why you would even want to do it.
I don't expect most players to understand the value or why you would even want to do it.
- FOSSIL
- Posts: 688
- Joined: Jul 09, 2019
Savio is on the money. None of this stuff, laudable though some of it is, is a means to 'improve' your tone quality. Tone is subjective.....very subjective. You change by listening to players you admire and practising until you develop your sound in the direction you want. Some get where they want, many don't. Ears and practise time.
Chris
Chris
- Bach5G
- Posts: 2874
- Joined: Apr 07, 2018
Thanks for the link Leif. It’s always good to hear a bit of Bill W on a ballad.
I wonder whether we have our own sound and it’s a matter of discovering it? As much as I might want sound like Geo Roberts or Charles Vernon (or even C Stearn), I will always sound like myself and what I have to aim for is the best possible version of myself.
I wonder whether we have our own sound and it’s a matter of discovering it? As much as I might want sound like Geo Roberts or Charles Vernon (or even C Stearn), I will always sound like myself and what I have to aim for is the best possible version of myself.
- Wilktone
- Posts: 720
- Joined: Mar 27, 2018
I was a little hesitant to post the exercise because I was afraid some people might not understand how to practice it without getting a demonstration and corrections after trying it out. Even after Doug showed it to me the first time I recall backing off and Doug had to call me out on it and get me to push and blow harder.
Not to diminish the importance of listening and imagining the sound, but I wish it was Harold Hill easy like that. Anything that you can do to train getting your embouchure, tongue, and air lined up correctly for a specific note and dynamic is useful. You can practice it unconsciously (and eventually you want it to be), but a little "focused" practice is also helpful.
Not to diminish the importance of listening and imagining the sound, but I wish it was Harold Hill easy like that. Anything that you can do to train getting your embouchure, tongue, and air lined up correctly for a specific note and dynamic is useful. You can practice it unconsciously (and eventually you want it to be), but a little "focused" practice is also helpful.
- FOSSIL
- Posts: 688
- Joined: Jul 09, 2019
[quote="Bach5G"]Thanks for the link Leif. It’s always good to hear a bit of Bill W on a ballad.
I wonder whether we have our own sound and it’s a matter of discovering it? As much as I might want sound like Geo Roberts or Charles Vernon (or even C Stearn), I will always sound like myself and what I have to aim for is the best possible version of myself.[/quote]
If you like the sound you make, great !! If you admire someone else's sound more, flood your brain with that sound until theirs becomes yours...or a version of it.
Making music solves a lot of problems.
Chris
I wonder whether we have our own sound and it’s a matter of discovering it? As much as I might want sound like Geo Roberts or Charles Vernon (or even C Stearn), I will always sound like myself and what I have to aim for is the best possible version of myself.[/quote]
If you like the sound you make, great !! If you admire someone else's sound more, flood your brain with that sound until theirs becomes yours...or a version of it.
Making music solves a lot of problems.
Chris
- FOSSIL
- Posts: 688
- Joined: Jul 09, 2019
[quote="Wilktone"]I was a little hesitant to post the exercise because I was afraid some people might not understand how to practice it without getting a demonstration and corrections after trying it out. Even after Doug showed it to me the first time I recall backing off and Doug had to call me out on it and get me to push and blow harder.
Not to diminish the importance of listening and imagining the sound, but I wish it was Harold Hill easy like that. Anything that you can do to train getting your embouchure, tongue, and air lined up correctly for a specific note and dynamic is useful. You can practice it unconsciously (and eventually you want it to be), but a little "focused" practice is also helpful.[/quote]
Never heard the term 'Harold Hill easy' .Quaint . I used to live near a place of that name.
It can be easy....depends on your mindset to a large extent.
Chris
Not to diminish the importance of listening and imagining the sound, but I wish it was Harold Hill easy like that. Anything that you can do to train getting your embouchure, tongue, and air lined up correctly for a specific note and dynamic is useful. You can practice it unconsciously (and eventually you want it to be), but a little "focused" practice is also helpful.[/quote]
Never heard the term 'Harold Hill easy' .Quaint . I used to live near a place of that name.
It can be easy....depends on your mindset to a large extent.
Chris
- BGuttman
- Posts: 7368
- Joined: Mar 22, 2018
Harold Hill was a character in "The Music Man". He was the male lead. He was a charlatan salesman who sold musical instruments to small towns to form a band and skipped town just before the stuff arrived so he didn't have to actually teach the kids. He advocated something called the "Think System", where you just imagined playing and it should come out that way.
I saw the town of Harold Hill and briefly considered naming my Brass Quintet after it -- most of the good English names were already taken (Nottingham, Stratford, Essex, etc.) I think for our quality of performance Lower Dibley would have been a better choice, though ;)
I saw the town of Harold Hill and briefly considered naming my Brass Quintet after it -- most of the good English names were already taken (Nottingham, Stratford, Essex, etc.) I think for our quality of performance Lower Dibley would have been a better choice, though ;)
- jthomas105
- Posts: 148
- Joined: Apr 08, 2018
Harold Hill, the main character in the "Music Man" musical/movie that went to towns and sold band instruments to start a band and then told the kids to learn to play with the "think method" because he was basically a scam man that sold anything and didn't know anything about what he sold.
Bruce beat me to it.
Bruce beat me to it.
- FOSSIL
- Posts: 688
- Joined: Jul 09, 2019
How nice....I didn't realise Dave was trying to trash my comments.... different worlds in so many ways.
Chris
Chris
- Wilktone
- Posts: 720
- Joined: Mar 27, 2018
Sorry, Chris. I just happen to reject the idea that it's as simple as *always* imagining the sound and letting it come out. Again, not to diminish the importance of doing things that way sometimes. If you teach at a conservatory that only accepts people into the program that already have it figured out then that's maybe all you need to do.
- Bach5G
- Posts: 2874
- Joined: Apr 07, 2018
The movie starred a young Shirley Jones as Marian the Librarian.
And also, “pool* starts with “P”, rhymes with “T” and stands for “trouble”. Here in River City.”
Back to regular programming.
* billiards lads
And also, “pool* starts with “P”, rhymes with “T” and stands for “trouble”. Here in River City.”
Back to regular programming.
* billiards lads
- PaulTdot
- Posts: 112
- Joined: Feb 04, 2019
Some other things I've found can greatly improve control and sound:
* Controlled breath attacks - none of that "fffffffwah!" thing I hear people doing, but teach your chops to produce a sound as soon as you blow air. (It can sound almost indistinguishable for a tongued attack after you've practiced it a lot.)
* Lots of sustained legato.
* Optimizing the way you line up the whole physical apparatus - tongue, teeth, lips, mouthpiece, horn. There is a place where any given note is going to sound best; play it there, rather than trying to fight it.
* Realizing what "your" unique sound is, and working with that, rather than trying to sound like someone else.
In addition, I wonder whether playing really loud changes your tone quality. I've noticed that my chops respond quite differently after sustained loud playing, and some of the effects are very positive (as long as I'm playing correctly). It almost feels like some kind of physical change (I suppose it could be as simple as swelling or damage).
I'm not sure, though, how it operates or whether to recommend it.
* Controlled breath attacks - none of that "fffffffwah!" thing I hear people doing, but teach your chops to produce a sound as soon as you blow air. (It can sound almost indistinguishable for a tongued attack after you've practiced it a lot.)
* Lots of sustained legato.
* Optimizing the way you line up the whole physical apparatus - tongue, teeth, lips, mouthpiece, horn. There is a place where any given note is going to sound best; play it there, rather than trying to fight it.
* Realizing what "your" unique sound is, and working with that, rather than trying to sound like someone else.
In addition, I wonder whether playing really loud changes your tone quality. I've noticed that my chops respond quite differently after sustained loud playing, and some of the effects are very positive (as long as I'm playing correctly). It almost feels like some kind of physical change (I suppose it could be as simple as swelling or damage).
I'm not sure, though, how it operates or whether to recommend it.
- BGuttman
- Posts: 7368
- Joined: Mar 22, 2018
Having a concept of the sound you want to hear and trying things until you get that sound is a way to improve. Unless you decide that whatever sound you manage to make is what you want; especially if the sound is one that is not "marketable".
A Teacher can usually tell you if your sound is not acceptable. A good teacher can help you find a sound that is "you" and is also acceptable. It may involve teaching some methods to be able to create the sound.
It's not the "think system", more the "find a sound you like and figure out how to make it" system.
A Teacher can usually tell you if your sound is not acceptable. A good teacher can help you find a sound that is "you" and is also acceptable. It may involve teaching some methods to be able to create the sound.
It's not the "think system", more the "find a sound you like and figure out how to make it" system.
- FOSSIL
- Posts: 688
- Joined: Jul 09, 2019
[quote="Wilktone"]Sorry, Chris. I just happen to reject the idea that it's as simple as *always* imagining the sound and letting it come out. Again, not to diminish the importance of doing things that way sometimes. If you teach at a conservatory that only accepts people into the program that already have it figured out then that's maybe all you need to do.[/quote]
Did I say always ? You did.
Do I only teach people that come physically sorted ?
Far from it.
Think system....very humorous....
Chris
Did I say always ? You did.
Do I only teach people that come physically sorted ?
Far from it.
Think system....very humorous....
Chris
- Wilktone
- Posts: 720
- Joined: Mar 27, 2018
[quote="FOSSIL"]Did I say always ? You did.
Do I only teach people that come physically sorted ?
Far from it.
Think system....very humorous....[/quote]
Chris, I'm sure if we were sitting down over a beverage "chewing the fat" we'd be agreeing with each other. I apologize if I've offended you.
Some of my reaction to your advice in this thread is due to past conversations we've had, but your pedagogical advice tends to discourage the details of how we play in favor of an approach that favors imagining the sound and letting the body figure itself out. I wish it was that easy for most of us.
What I'm advocating for, and I suspect in practice you do as well, is an approach that uses the correct pedagogical tool for the job.
Do you have some suggestions for developing tone that aren't simply about hearing the sound you want?
Do I only teach people that come physically sorted ?
Far from it.
Think system....very humorous....[/quote]
Chris, I'm sure if we were sitting down over a beverage "chewing the fat" we'd be agreeing with each other. I apologize if I've offended you.
Some of my reaction to your advice in this thread is due to past conversations we've had, but your pedagogical advice tends to discourage the details of how we play in favor of an approach that favors imagining the sound and letting the body figure itself out. I wish it was that easy for most of us.
What I'm advocating for, and I suspect in practice you do as well, is an approach that uses the correct pedagogical tool for the job.
Do you have some suggestions for developing tone that aren't simply about hearing the sound you want?
- harrisonreed
- Posts: 6479
- Joined: Aug 17, 2018
[quote="Wilktone"]Sorry, Chris. I just happen to reject the idea that it's as simple as *always* imagining the sound and letting it come out. Again, not to diminish the importance of doing things that way sometimes. If you teach at a conservatory that only accepts people into the program that already have it figured out then that's maybe all you need to do.[/quote]
Selling embouchure advice to someone with horse teeth and bad ears would be as Harold Hill as it gets. On the other hand, improving one's ear and internal voice is always sound advice.
I don't know anything about where or how Chris teaches, but being selective about who they teach is the wisest thing a conservatory can do. Sew seed on fertile ground. On the flip side you've got people who've spent ten years in school for music in traditional colleges, with a DMA and gobs of knowledge, but still no potential for performing or demonstrating music as a teacher. They are more common than they should be and I keep meeting them along my musical journey, hiding behind marimbas or classical sax music.
Selling embouchure advice to someone with horse teeth and bad ears would be as Harold Hill as it gets. On the other hand, improving one's ear and internal voice is always sound advice.
I don't know anything about where or how Chris teaches, but being selective about who they teach is the wisest thing a conservatory can do. Sew seed on fertile ground. On the flip side you've got people who've spent ten years in school for music in traditional colleges, with a DMA and gobs of knowledge, but still no potential for performing or demonstrating music as a teacher. They are more common than they should be and I keep meeting them along my musical journey, hiding behind marimbas or classical sax music.
- Posaunus
- Posts: 5018
- Joined: Mar 23, 2018
The "Think System"
<YOUTUBE id="DE8xJpqazOM">https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=DE8xJpqazOM</YOUTUBE>
<YOUTUBE id="XwAyswXI2F4">https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=XwAyswXI2F4</YOUTUBE>
<YOUTUBE id="J0HpROFEKfw">https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=J0HpROFEKfw</YOUTUBE>
<YOUTUBE id="LI_Oe-jtgdI">https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=LI_Oe-jtgdI</YOUTUBE>
Meredith Willson - "The Music Man"
<YOUTUBE id="DE8xJpqazOM">https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=DE8xJpqazOM</YOUTUBE>
<YOUTUBE id="XwAyswXI2F4">https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=XwAyswXI2F4</YOUTUBE>
<YOUTUBE id="J0HpROFEKfw">https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=J0HpROFEKfw</YOUTUBE>
<YOUTUBE id="LI_Oe-jtgdI">https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=LI_Oe-jtgdI</YOUTUBE>
Meredith Willson - "The Music Man"
- Wilktone
- Posts: 720
- Joined: Mar 27, 2018
FYI, here is a very un-ironic reference about the approach I find to be less than helpful for most of us.
http://www.rogerrocco.net/2010/04/think-system.html
http://www.rogerrocco.net/2010/04/think-system.html
- harrisonreed
- Posts: 6479
- Joined: Aug 17, 2018
[quote="Wilktone"]FYI, here is a very un-ironic reference about the approach I find to be less than helpful for most of us.
http://www.rogerrocco.net/2010/04/think-system.html[/quote]
If one is hung up on technique and mechanics, of course Arnold Jacobs seems like he is teaching the think system.
But he is thinking like how the Suzuki method thinks -- a large part of any endeavor is being able to visualize or hear it in your head. The best athletes visualize their sport thousands of times, even when they are not actively practicing it. No doubt Christian Lindberg heard his own sound even in his dreams.
You need both. You need to understand the mechanics, but what you hear as your voice and what you strive for internally is equally important.
http://www.rogerrocco.net/2010/04/think-system.html[/quote]
If one is hung up on technique and mechanics, of course Arnold Jacobs seems like he is teaching the think system.
But he is thinking like how the Suzuki method thinks -- a large part of any endeavor is being able to visualize or hear it in your head. The best athletes visualize their sport thousands of times, even when they are not actively practicing it. No doubt Christian Lindberg heard his own sound even in his dreams.
You need both. You need to understand the mechanics, but what you hear as your voice and what you strive for internally is equally important.
- Wilktone
- Posts: 720
- Joined: Mar 27, 2018
[quote="harrisonreed"]You need both. You need to understand the mechanics, but what you hear as your voice and what you strive for internally is equally important.[/quote]
Yes! It's not all or nothing and there are merits to both.
Yes! It's not all or nothing and there are merits to both.
- FOSSIL
- Posts: 688
- Joined: Jul 09, 2019
[quote="harrisonreed"]<QUOTE author="Wilktone" post_id="144703" time="1617053965" user_id="220">
FYI, here is a very un-ironic reference about the approach I find to be less than helpful for most of us.
http://www.rogerrocco.net/2010/04/think-system.html[/quote]
If one is hung up on technique and mechanics, of course Arnold Jacobs seems like he is teaching the think system.
But he is thinking like how the Suzuki method thinks -- a large part of any endeavor is being able to visualize or hear it in your head. The best athletes visualize their sport thousands of times, even when they are not actively practicing it. No doubt Christian Lindberg heard his own sound even in his dreams.
You need both. You need to understand the mechanics, but what you hear as your voice and what you strive for internally is equally important.
</QUOTE>
That's nice Harrison. There are no opposing systems. I just teach my students what I have found to work over many years...and that's different for every person who walks in the door. You teach each person what they need, not some kind of catch all. Anyway, I'm near the end of playing and teaching, so I don't really care for competitions and opposing camps.
It's all about music in the end...and how best to make it.
Chris
FYI, here is a very un-ironic reference about the approach I find to be less than helpful for most of us.
http://www.rogerrocco.net/2010/04/think-system.html[/quote]
If one is hung up on technique and mechanics, of course Arnold Jacobs seems like he is teaching the think system.
But he is thinking like how the Suzuki method thinks -- a large part of any endeavor is being able to visualize or hear it in your head. The best athletes visualize their sport thousands of times, even when they are not actively practicing it. No doubt Christian Lindberg heard his own sound even in his dreams.
You need both. You need to understand the mechanics, but what you hear as your voice and what you strive for internally is equally important.
</QUOTE>
That's nice Harrison. There are no opposing systems. I just teach my students what I have found to work over many years...and that's different for every person who walks in the door. You teach each person what they need, not some kind of catch all. Anyway, I'm near the end of playing and teaching, so I don't really care for competitions and opposing camps.
It's all about music in the end...and how best to make it.
Chris
- Wilktone
- Posts: 720
- Joined: Mar 27, 2018
Thank you for clarifying, Chris. But I'm genuinely interested, what do you advise your students to work on for tone that goes beyond listening to the tone you want and striving to imitate it through unconscious trial and error?
- FOSSIL
- Posts: 688
- Joined: Jul 09, 2019
[quote="Wilktone"]Thank you for clarifying, Chris. But I'm genuinely interested, what do you advise your students to work on for tone that goes beyond listening to the tone you want and striving to imitate it through unconscious trial and error?[/quote]
Not unconscious trial and error, that's for sure. It's about awareness....talking about sounds , listening online...but more importantly, listening live. I do play in lessons but I don't expect that my sound is so wonderful that my students want to copy it. We are lucky here to have two symphony orchestras, an opera orchestra a ballet orchestra and a chamber orchestra, so in normal times lots to hear and think about and the RCS brings top players in to do masterclasses.
Many players simply do not listen enough to sound...really listen and think. A sound heard once can live with you for a lifetime if it really hits home....I know that from personal experience.
If my students become obsessed with sound, I find it gives focus and direction to their work. Every student is unique and their journey is unique, and their playing is unique, but they often like the same famous players and develop similar sonic characters.
One of my greatest regrets is that my dear friend Bob Hughes is no longer playing....many of my students love his recordings, but five minutes in a room with Bob live, would be imprinted on their heads and their hearts forever...he was that good. I remember hearing George Roberts warming up in the trade stand room at ITF...he was old and not in the best of health but he still 'had it'....listening sent a shiver up my spine.... the sound that inspired me so long ago was there in the room.....magic.
Chris
Not unconscious trial and error, that's for sure. It's about awareness....talking about sounds , listening online...but more importantly, listening live. I do play in lessons but I don't expect that my sound is so wonderful that my students want to copy it. We are lucky here to have two symphony orchestras, an opera orchestra a ballet orchestra and a chamber orchestra, so in normal times lots to hear and think about and the RCS brings top players in to do masterclasses.
Many players simply do not listen enough to sound...really listen and think. A sound heard once can live with you for a lifetime if it really hits home....I know that from personal experience.
If my students become obsessed with sound, I find it gives focus and direction to their work. Every student is unique and their journey is unique, and their playing is unique, but they often like the same famous players and develop similar sonic characters.
One of my greatest regrets is that my dear friend Bob Hughes is no longer playing....many of my students love his recordings, but five minutes in a room with Bob live, would be imprinted on their heads and their hearts forever...he was that good. I remember hearing George Roberts warming up in the trade stand room at ITF...he was old and not in the best of health but he still 'had it'....listening sent a shiver up my spine.... the sound that inspired me so long ago was there in the room.....magic.
Chris
- Savio
- Posts: 688
- Joined: Apr 26, 2018
[quote="FOSSIL"]<QUOTE author="Wilktone" post_id="144715" time="1617058674" user_id="220">
Thank you for clarifying, Chris. But I'm genuinely interested, what do you advise your students to work on for tone that goes beyond listening to the tone you want and striving to imitate it through unconscious trial and error?[/quote]
Not unconscious trial and error, that's for sure. It's about awareness....talking about sounds , listening online...but more importantly, listening live. I do play in lessons but I don't expect that my sound is so wonderful that my students want to copy it. We are lucky here to have two symphony orchestras, an opera orchestra a ballet orchestra and a chamber orchestra, so in normal times lots to hear and think about and the RCS brings top players in to do masterclasses.
Many players simply do not listen enough to sound...really listen and think. A sound heard once can live with you for a lifetime if it really hits home....I know that from personal experience.
If my students become obsessed with sound, I find it gives focus and direction to their work. Every student is unique and their journey is unique, and their playing is unique, but they often like the same famous players and develop similar sonic characters.
One of my greatest regrets is that my dear friend Bob Hughes is no longer playing....many of my students love his recordings, but five minutes in a room with Bob live, would be imprinted on their heads and their hearts forever...he was that good. I remember hearing George Roberts warming up in the trade stand room at ITF...he was old and not in the best of health but he still 'had it'....listening sent a shiver up my spine.... the sound that inspired me so long ago was there in the room.....magic.
Chris
</QUOTE>
:good: :good: :good:
I can write under to this!
Listening people like Chris mentioned also gives a lot of inspiration. It makes us work and think to go for a specific goal. What people need to get their goal is always different. I have always been told to do long notes and slow lip slurs. But others might need different ways to get closer their goals. I mostly teach children so its a little different then grown ups. But one thing is similar; they all need different things.
I still do a lot more of listening with my children then I did before. Today I have an impression people dont listen much? The best is live listening but thats not easy right now. I have listen Chris close and that gave me lot of inspiration and the sound I strive for. Its always good to get that kind of inspiration.
I also listen some to singers to get ideas how to make phrases, articulation and shape the notes. Well, I will never be really good like many of you, but I'm glad everytime I can make some little music. Thats make me still love to play trombone.
Leif
Thank you for clarifying, Chris. But I'm genuinely interested, what do you advise your students to work on for tone that goes beyond listening to the tone you want and striving to imitate it through unconscious trial and error?[/quote]
Not unconscious trial and error, that's for sure. It's about awareness....talking about sounds , listening online...but more importantly, listening live. I do play in lessons but I don't expect that my sound is so wonderful that my students want to copy it. We are lucky here to have two symphony orchestras, an opera orchestra a ballet orchestra and a chamber orchestra, so in normal times lots to hear and think about and the RCS brings top players in to do masterclasses.
Many players simply do not listen enough to sound...really listen and think. A sound heard once can live with you for a lifetime if it really hits home....I know that from personal experience.
If my students become obsessed with sound, I find it gives focus and direction to their work. Every student is unique and their journey is unique, and their playing is unique, but they often like the same famous players and develop similar sonic characters.
One of my greatest regrets is that my dear friend Bob Hughes is no longer playing....many of my students love his recordings, but five minutes in a room with Bob live, would be imprinted on their heads and their hearts forever...he was that good. I remember hearing George Roberts warming up in the trade stand room at ITF...he was old and not in the best of health but he still 'had it'....listening sent a shiver up my spine.... the sound that inspired me so long ago was there in the room.....magic.
Chris
</QUOTE>
:good: :good: :good:
I can write under to this!
Listening people like Chris mentioned also gives a lot of inspiration. It makes us work and think to go for a specific goal. What people need to get their goal is always different. I have always been told to do long notes and slow lip slurs. But others might need different ways to get closer their goals. I mostly teach children so its a little different then grown ups. But one thing is similar; they all need different things.
I still do a lot more of listening with my children then I did before. Today I have an impression people dont listen much? The best is live listening but thats not easy right now. I have listen Chris close and that gave me lot of inspiration and the sound I strive for. Its always good to get that kind of inspiration.
I also listen some to singers to get ideas how to make phrases, articulation and shape the notes. Well, I will never be really good like many of you, but I'm glad everytime I can make some little music. Thats make me still love to play trombone.
Leif
- FOSSIL
- Posts: 688
- Joined: Jul 09, 2019
P.S. My lockdown project has been to improve my improvisation abilities on the small tenor....looking back over the year, it has also been a search for sound. I knew sounds that I liked and in trying to get there equipment has changed through the year. I have to make the sound for sure, but equipment can help a lot. That and listening.
Chris
Chris
- FOSSIL
- Posts: 688
- Joined: Jul 09, 2019
Leif, you make a great sound because you really listen. You know what you want and work towards it. You also sound good because you are a nice guy....that might sound really silly, but it's true...happy people make happy sounds...they can't help it !! <EMOJI seq="1f601" tseq="1f601">😁</EMOJI><EMOJI seq="1f601" tseq="1f601">😁</EMOJI><EMOJI seq="1f601" tseq="1f601">😁</EMOJI>
Chris
Chris
- Doug_Elliott
- Posts: 4155
- Joined: Mar 22, 2018
The whole aspect of "sound" as it applies to some of the great players AND singers who have immediately recognizable sounds can be broken down into at least five parts.
How they start a note
Sound while holding a note
How they change notes when slurring
How they change notes when articulating
How they end a note or phrase
All of those things (and more) are how you immediately recognize who's playing. And they all need to be considered when working on "your sound."
Leif mentioned "long notes and slow lip slurs" and "I also listen some to singers to get ideas how to make phrases, articulation and shape the notes."
Yes, exactly. It's all about "sound.".
What you do between notes is just as important, or even more important, than how you sound during a single note. That's why I'm not a big fan of long tones.
What Dave and I were discussing above was Reinhardt's "Elasticity Routine" which involves glissing between harmonics in one position. In other words, the ultimate slow slur. That the value of it - to be in control of what happens between notes.
I hope that ties in something that may have seemed out of context, but it's not.
How they start a note
Sound while holding a note
How they change notes when slurring
How they change notes when articulating
How they end a note or phrase
All of those things (and more) are how you immediately recognize who's playing. And they all need to be considered when working on "your sound."
Leif mentioned "long notes and slow lip slurs" and "I also listen some to singers to get ideas how to make phrases, articulation and shape the notes."
Yes, exactly. It's all about "sound.".
What you do between notes is just as important, or even more important, than how you sound during a single note. That's why I'm not a big fan of long tones.
What Dave and I were discussing above was Reinhardt's "Elasticity Routine" which involves glissing between harmonics in one position. In other words, the ultimate slow slur. That the value of it - to be in control of what happens between notes.
I hope that ties in something that may have seemed out of context, but it's not.
- baileyman
- Posts: 1169
- Joined: Mar 24, 2018
[quote="Wilktone"]I was a little hesitant to post the exercise because I was afraid some people might not understand how to practice it without getting a demonstration and corrections after trying it out. Even after Doug showed it to me the first time I recall backing off and Doug had to call me out on it and get me to push and blow harder.
...[/quote]
This is a common difficulty I have with many published exercises. There is rarely any discussion about the purpose or what to pay attention to or exactly what procedure to apply, and of course no feedback without someone who actually knows those things to help. Sometimes I think the real purpose behind something like Arban scales is to shift different distances in the same amount of time, but of course that cannot be right since originally they were for cornet. In any event, zero discussion there, too.
Incidentally, the one standout who comes to mind in this is Bob McChesney. Great discussion in his books.
...[/quote]
This is a common difficulty I have with many published exercises. There is rarely any discussion about the purpose or what to pay attention to or exactly what procedure to apply, and of course no feedback without someone who actually knows those things to help. Sometimes I think the real purpose behind something like Arban scales is to shift different distances in the same amount of time, but of course that cannot be right since originally they were for cornet. In any event, zero discussion there, too.
Incidentally, the one standout who comes to mind in this is Bob McChesney. Great discussion in his books.
- Basbasun
- Posts: 496
- Joined: Mar 26, 2018
I practise a lot of slow scales, listening for intonation and sound. Also lots of flexibility, good for my sound. I use some air attacks (hoo hoo hoo) like many of us in Scandinavia learned when Naessen and Traulsen was alive.
Flurato I do when playing Don Quiote. "False tones" I do, not in realation to glissando though. I have meet so many players with sometimes unusual exercises, I am not ready to say that the OP:s teacher is teaching wrong methods. I don´t know how it´s done in the lesson.
Flurato I do when playing Don Quiote. "False tones" I do, not in realation to glissando though. I have meet so many players with sometimes unusual exercises, I am not ready to say that the OP:s teacher is teaching wrong methods. I don´t know how it´s done in the lesson.
- Kdanielsen
- Posts: 609
- Joined: Jul 28, 2019
[quote="FOSSIL"]Many players simply do not listen enough to sound...really listen and think. A sound heard once can live with you for a lifetime if it really hits home....I know that from personal experience.
If my students become obsessed with sound, I find it gives focus and direction to their work. Every student is unique and their journey is unique, and their playing is unique, but they often like the same famous players and develop similar sonic characters.
One of my greatest regrets is that my dear friend Bob Hughes is no longer playing....many of my students love his recordings, but five minutes in a room with Bob live, would be imprinted on their heads and their hearts forever...he was that good. I remember hearing George Roberts warming up in the trade stand room at ITF...he was old and not in the best of health but he still 'had it'....listening sent a shiver up my spine.... the sound that inspired me so long ago was there in the room.....magic.
Chris[/quote]
Couldn’t agree more.
Hearing Alessi’s recording of T Bone concerto changed my life and made me fall in love with trombone as a young player. Listening to him warm up in a courtyard a decade later did the same.
Hearing Jim Markey’s tenor trombone CD blew my mind. I’ve worn out 3 copies.
Hearing my teacher at Peabody (Baltimore Symphony legend Jim Olin) play my horn at our first lesson, and absolutely kill it on probably 15 excerpts in rapid succession has stuck. His sound in the orchestra will always be in my ear.
There are a hundred others.
I think we hear, and we fall in love with these moments of sound, and our imagination uses them to fuel our sound ideas. If our bodies can’t figure it out with our current physical set up, we need to adjust, but I think the love for sound needs to be the foundation of it.
If my students become obsessed with sound, I find it gives focus and direction to their work. Every student is unique and their journey is unique, and their playing is unique, but they often like the same famous players and develop similar sonic characters.
One of my greatest regrets is that my dear friend Bob Hughes is no longer playing....many of my students love his recordings, but five minutes in a room with Bob live, would be imprinted on their heads and their hearts forever...he was that good. I remember hearing George Roberts warming up in the trade stand room at ITF...he was old and not in the best of health but he still 'had it'....listening sent a shiver up my spine.... the sound that inspired me so long ago was there in the room.....magic.
Chris[/quote]
Couldn’t agree more.
Hearing Alessi’s recording of T Bone concerto changed my life and made me fall in love with trombone as a young player. Listening to him warm up in a courtyard a decade later did the same.
Hearing Jim Markey’s tenor trombone CD blew my mind. I’ve worn out 3 copies.
Hearing my teacher at Peabody (Baltimore Symphony legend Jim Olin) play my horn at our first lesson, and absolutely kill it on probably 15 excerpts in rapid succession has stuck. His sound in the orchestra will always be in my ear.
There are a hundred others.
I think we hear, and we fall in love with these moments of sound, and our imagination uses them to fuel our sound ideas. If our bodies can’t figure it out with our current physical set up, we need to adjust, but I think the love for sound needs to be the foundation of it.
- harrisonreed
- Posts: 6479
- Joined: Aug 17, 2018
The more I think about it the more this topic seems like "the ultimate question". The answer might as well be 42.
I think more specific questions are needed to frame the answer. How many miles must I walk in another man's shoes? 42.
My "holy crap, sound" moment was hearing C. Lindberg hold a high E for a few bars in the Aho concerto and fade to nothing as the clarinet crescendoed seamlessly into the same pitch. I was in the nosebleeds, and I thought my ears were playing tricks on me. I thought the chandelier was resonating with the E, but it was the clarinet. Hearing him play his warm up vanilla F fifteen years later in Colorado gave me the same feeling. He was at the very back of the stage, almost off stage and it was just the rehearsal, not the concert. The F sounded like he was just a few feet away from me, but it was just a mezzo forte. Ventriloquism.
I had the absolute pleasure of hearing J. Alessi play his gift of a commission to us, the Rouse bone concerto, and it was the same. These two guys sound very different artistically, but they both sound like they are right next to you when they play, even from far away. No matter what the dynamic is.
Tribone concertos are rare, but I've seen a fair few others play them. Some heavy hitters too -- these unnamed people did not come close.
I think more specific questions are needed to frame the answer. How many miles must I walk in another man's shoes? 42.
My "holy crap, sound" moment was hearing C. Lindberg hold a high E for a few bars in the Aho concerto and fade to nothing as the clarinet crescendoed seamlessly into the same pitch. I was in the nosebleeds, and I thought my ears were playing tricks on me. I thought the chandelier was resonating with the E, but it was the clarinet. Hearing him play his warm up vanilla F fifteen years later in Colorado gave me the same feeling. He was at the very back of the stage, almost off stage and it was just the rehearsal, not the concert. The F sounded like he was just a few feet away from me, but it was just a mezzo forte. Ventriloquism.
I had the absolute pleasure of hearing J. Alessi play his gift of a commission to us, the Rouse bone concerto, and it was the same. These two guys sound very different artistically, but they both sound like they are right next to you when they play, even from far away. No matter what the dynamic is.
Tribone concertos are rare, but I've seen a fair few others play them. Some heavy hitters too -- these unnamed people did not come close.
- Basbasun
- Posts: 496
- Joined: Mar 26, 2018
About the "false" tones, it can a help for the low range. As everything else you play you should strive for a good tone. Like many other execises it does not nessecary lead to good tone or better range.
- Wilktone
- Posts: 720
- Joined: Mar 27, 2018
Just to be clear, I agree that having excellent models to follow and practicing with intense focus on what you want to sound like and striving for that is an essential part of the process. Playing a masterclass for Mark Lawrence and hearing him play for me from a couple of feet away was an amazing experience that helped things click for me. Another one that still sticks in my mind was hearing Steve Wiest play as a guest soloist with my undergraduate jazz band and then the same day getting to hear the Airmen of Note play live. I think that was in 1989. Dave Steinmeyer was playing lead trombone in the band at that time. I recall him soloing on I'm Getting Sentimental Over You. The way he is able to play in the extreme upper register with such focus and clarity is truly amazing. Doug Elliott was in the band then too and I remember him soloing over Children of the Night, one of my favorite Wayne Shorter tunes. I had a bootleg tape of those concerts that I wore out. A Christian Lindberg concert also was an inspiring highlight.
I will also agree that playing trombone is an inherently "knacky" think to learn. There's just a lot of it that takes some personal trial and error to figure things out. We can't reach inside someone's body to help them learn how to breathe or fiddle with the lips while playing the same way we can adjust a young violinist's fingers, for example. But there are certain things we can think about and practice that help lead us towards that. The exercise I posted earlier is one possible method one can take.
The emphasis on having a model to follow, while essential, does appear to end up being framed as the "think system," though. If it's really that simple, then what is the point of even having a teacher? Why not just attend performances and listen to great recordings? For the teachers who are emphasizing this approach, don't you also have some exercises you recommend or suggestions you might make that help lead a student to playing with a more focused and resonant tone?
I will also agree that playing trombone is an inherently "knacky" think to learn. There's just a lot of it that takes some personal trial and error to figure things out. We can't reach inside someone's body to help them learn how to breathe or fiddle with the lips while playing the same way we can adjust a young violinist's fingers, for example. But there are certain things we can think about and practice that help lead us towards that. The exercise I posted earlier is one possible method one can take.
The emphasis on having a model to follow, while essential, does appear to end up being framed as the "think system," though. If it's really that simple, then what is the point of even having a teacher? Why not just attend performances and listen to great recordings? For the teachers who are emphasizing this approach, don't you also have some exercises you recommend or suggestions you might make that help lead a student to playing with a more focused and resonant tone?
- FOSSIL
- Posts: 688
- Joined: Jul 09, 2019
You know, I have a Martin Imperial 'Music Man' model trombone...It's really rather nice...almost plays itself.
I wonder where all this leaves modern sports psychology?
Is that a waste of time ? Does it do nothing for the athletes ?
My problem is that my students seem to do rather well, so I am not inclined to change what I do. What goes on in their lessons is unique to each student and is between them and me and not up for discussion here.
I am generally busy putting them together as musicians, not taking them apart as technicians, but anything can happen and has done over the last 40 plus years.
Never been drawn to classification of things for it's own sake ...a sort of Dr Dolittle system, if we like hijacking old films...still I'd be interested to hear Dolittle tonguing....
Chris
I wonder where all this leaves modern sports psychology?
Is that a waste of time ? Does it do nothing for the athletes ?
My problem is that my students seem to do rather well, so I am not inclined to change what I do. What goes on in their lessons is unique to each student and is between them and me and not up for discussion here.
I am generally busy putting them together as musicians, not taking them apart as technicians, but anything can happen and has done over the last 40 plus years.
Never been drawn to classification of things for it's own sake ...a sort of Dr Dolittle system, if we like hijacking old films...still I'd be interested to hear Dolittle tonguing....
Chris
- ArbanRubank
- Posts: 424
- Joined: Feb 23, 2019
^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^ Great answer! Hold fast to your principles. :good:
- Wilktone
- Posts: 720
- Joined: Mar 27, 2018
Thank you again for clarifying.
[quote="FOSSIL"]What goes on in their lessons is unique to each student and is between them and me and not up for discussion here.[/quote]
I can certainly understand that it's complicated and probably not worth your time to try to type it all out and explain it here. I'm trying to follow your thoughts, though.
[quote="FOSSIL"]I am generally busy putting them together as musicians, not taking them apart as technicians, but anything can happen and has done over the last 40 plus years.[/quote]
So would you agree that at times you've found it helpful to take an approach that is not purely based on modeling the sound and having them imitate?
[quote="FOSSIL"]Never been drawn to classification of things for it's own sake[/quote]
I don't think anyone has been advocating that in this thread, or elsewhere.
[quote="FOSSIL"]I wonder where all this leaves modern sports psychology?
Is that a waste of time ? Does it do nothing for the athletes ?[/quote]
I find sports psychology and athletic training very interesting and relevant to the discussing of the development of musical skills. I did a[url=https://www.wilktone.com/wp-content/uploads/2013/08/A-REVIEW-OF-IMPLICIT-AND-EXPLICIT-LEARNING-STRATEGIES-IN-THE-DEVELOPMENT-OF-MOTOR-SKILLS.pdf]deep dive into this a while back. If you're not interested in reading it all the way through, the summary is that it's more complicated than what tends to get filtered out through pop psychology. Athletes do perform better during competition when their mind is kept on the goal, but they still prepare by drilling, working on form, and doing things like strength and flexibility training outside of the context of their sport.
I *think* that is what we both are advocating for, but just that our thoughts are getting interpreted and framed as all of one and nothing of the other. Correct?
Thanks,
Dave
[quote="FOSSIL"]What goes on in their lessons is unique to each student and is between them and me and not up for discussion here.[/quote]
I can certainly understand that it's complicated and probably not worth your time to try to type it all out and explain it here. I'm trying to follow your thoughts, though.
[quote="FOSSIL"]I am generally busy putting them together as musicians, not taking them apart as technicians, but anything can happen and has done over the last 40 plus years.[/quote]
So would you agree that at times you've found it helpful to take an approach that is not purely based on modeling the sound and having them imitate?
[quote="FOSSIL"]Never been drawn to classification of things for it's own sake[/quote]
I don't think anyone has been advocating that in this thread, or elsewhere.
[quote="FOSSIL"]I wonder where all this leaves modern sports psychology?
Is that a waste of time ? Does it do nothing for the athletes ?[/quote]
I find sports psychology and athletic training very interesting and relevant to the discussing of the development of musical skills. I did a
I *think* that is what we both are advocating for, but just that our thoughts are getting interpreted and framed as all of one and nothing of the other. Correct?
Thanks,
Dave
- bellend
- Posts: 218
- Joined: Mar 23, 2018
Just came across this on the net.
A virtual masterclass from one of LA's 1st call trumpeters Wayne Bergeron.
Didn't know the poor guy has had throat cancer, but thankfully he seems to be recovering well :good:
I love the way he talks and explains what he does with no side or attitude, worth a watch what ever standard you are, although I'm sure there will be " Experts" who disagree with what he's saying :clever:
<YOUTUBE id="hwbN-gEe0sc">https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hwbN-gEe0sc</YOUTUBE>
Enjoy!!
BellEnd
A virtual masterclass from one of LA's 1st call trumpeters Wayne Bergeron.
Didn't know the poor guy has had throat cancer, but thankfully he seems to be recovering well :good:
I love the way he talks and explains what he does with no side or attitude, worth a watch what ever standard you are, although I'm sure there will be " Experts" who disagree with what he's saying :clever:
<YOUTUBE id="hwbN-gEe0sc">https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hwbN-gEe0sc</YOUTUBE>
Enjoy!!
BellEnd
- Posaunus
- Posts: 5018
- Joined: Mar 23, 2018
[quote="bellend"]... a virtual masterclass from one of LA's 1st call trumpeters, Wayne Bergeron.
Didn't know the poor guy has had throat cancer, but thankfully he seems to be recovering well :good:
I love the way he talks and explains what he does with no side or attitude, worth a watch what ever standard you are, although I'm sure there will be "Experts" who disagree with what he's saying :clever:
<YOUTUBE id="hwbN-gEe0sc">https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hwbN-gEe0sc</YOUTUBE>[/quote]
A couple of my trumpet-playing friends (the ones that like to show off their high range) found this "clinic" to be very helpful. Wayne is a great guy and one of the best trumpeters around. :good:
Didn't know the poor guy has had throat cancer, but thankfully he seems to be recovering well :good:
I love the way he talks and explains what he does with no side or attitude, worth a watch what ever standard you are, although I'm sure there will be "Experts" who disagree with what he's saying :clever:
<YOUTUBE id="hwbN-gEe0sc">https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hwbN-gEe0sc</YOUTUBE>[/quote]
A couple of my trumpet-playing friends (the ones that like to show off their high range) found this "clinic" to be very helpful. Wayne is a great guy and one of the best trumpeters around. :good: