Help! Has this happened to anyone else!

tskeldon · by **tskeldon** » 2021-03-31 3:55 p.m.

If this has happened to you, and you have recovered from it, or given up playing on its account, I would very much like to here from you 'first' on your experience. I hope that there will be all manner of secondary suggestions too, and I would be thankful for any original incites, but I fear this really is something that has to be experienced. OR...maybe this is what its like to struggle with play, which is something I have never had to do.

It has happened that in a fairly short period of time I have somehow lost my embouchure! Two years ago I returned to playing after 35 years away, and quickly recovered the strong natural embouchure, having easy facility and good endurance, that are the reward of good natural mechanics, which allow play with little apparent need of pressure to win range, volume, or flexibility.

I was able to play reliably and comfortably up to double A (triple Bb just wasn’t in the horn), without much taxing my play. A typical session (7days/week) involved a 15 minute warm-up/technique review, and 45 minutes of concerted work on relatively challenging recital pieces the likes of Schumann’s Fantasiestucke, Op. 73, or his Drei Romanzen, Op. 94 or Debussy’s, Syrinx, all of which I was preparing for a recording.

If time permitted, I played some high lyric ballades from one of Alan Kaplan’s two MMO volumes, and then I finished with some standard orchestral excerpts to make sure that orchestral potential was still a component in my otherwise pursuit of a polite recital voice. It should be said that the room I play in is 40 feet square, with a 12 foot ceiling, so while there was plenty of space for the sound to expand in, I don’t think I was over reaching.

However, 5 months ago I started to notice air leaking out of both corners of my embouchure that I was able to stop it with minimal conscious effort. My tone was centered and resonant so I didn’t worry. Over time though, it started to get worse. Then my tuning started to go all over the place, even though the rich, vibrant tone suggested to me that every note was centered.

Then my pitch started to go up, and my tuning slide had to come out to accommodate it; which was odd because I hadn’t moved it in two years. Additionally, there was almost 50 cents difference between the 3rd harmonic (middle Bb) and the 2nd (low Bb) when played in the same position. The higher harmonics were less effected, but were effected none the less. Notes still spoke easily and tone was vibrant.

There was no sense of fatigue or weakness to advise me. In fact it became the opposite, an absence or lightness of feeling or feedback, which I took as strength. I could play as reliably at the end of a session as I could the beginning, but in addition to these new artifacts that had taken up permanent residence in my play, my control started to go: it was as if I had too much…ability, and no way to manage it.

Then I started having problem articulating notes in the low register. It seemed that my embouchure was unable to sustain itself against the volume of air necessary to the notes production. I couldn't feel the note, though I could find it just wasn't where I expected it to be. Having acquired it, it wouldn’t stabilize, wandering aimlessly about in pitch, intensity, and resonance regardless of volume.

I did some on-line research and found the paper by Lucinda Lewis’s on, Embouchure Overuse Syndrome In Brass Players, but it didn’t, in detail, seem to be quite the correct match. Nevertheless, I took 3 weeks off to rest up, just in case some kind of fatigue was to blame, and come back at it now and I find that nothing has changed. The good of it is that I don’t make a living playing. The bad of it was that I enjoyed it.

JohnL · by **JohnL** » 2021-03-31 6:45 p.m.

Doug Elliott.

'nuff said.

Doug_Elliott · by **Doug_Elliott** » 2021-03-31 6:51 p.m.

I am good at diagnosing and fixing things like that, in a lesson by Skype or Zoom

harrisonreed · by **harrisonreed** » 2021-03-31 7:21 p.m.

Sounds like what happened to Phil Smith.

Vegasbound · by **Vegasbound** » 2021-04-01 4:44 a.m.

Doug Elliott

Phil Smith suffered focal dystonia

harrisonreed · by **harrisonreed** » 2021-04-01 9:30 a.m.

[quote="Vegasbound"]Phil Smith suffered focal dystonia[/quote]

He sure did, and still does. Started with air leaking out of his corners.

Wilktone · by **Wilktone** » 2021-04-01 10:45 a.m.

A diagnosis of focal task-specific dystonia should only be given by a specialist. No ethical medical professional would even offer a prognosis without first seeing the patient either. I would not recommend that you get a medical diagnosis from a musician over the internet (or even from a musician in person). If you have medical concerns visit your general practitioner and get a referral to a neurologist.

I have an educated guess as to what might be going on, but I'd have to see how you're playing, tskeldon. If my guess is right, it would further take some careful experimentation to figure out what you should be doing to make your corrections. I'm happy to do watch a video of your playing or meet with you via Zoom to give you my thoughts, but if you have the chance to do this with Doug Elliott he has more experience with this than me.

u_2bobone · by **u_2bobone** » 2021-04-01 12:19 p.m.

Years ago, the principal trumpeter in the professional orchestra I played in suddenly started experiencing extreme problems with almost every aspect of his playing. He had always been totally dependable and was definitely a virtuoso on his instrument. For months he struggled with the fallout and after almost a year was able to make some progress towards becoming his former self as a player. A specialist that he visited was able to ascertain that he had a virus that had settled in his facial muscles which had weakened them and had led to the spiraling loss of his hallmarks -- strength and control. As he ascended from this trauma, a particularly poignant moment occurred when a composition of the Russian composer Shchedrin was put on the concert schedule. In rehearsal, the conductor, a particularly cruel individual who had no sympathy with the trumpeter's lot, displayed his worst side. The piece began with a 64 bar [?] exposed trumpet solo with the lightest of accompaniment that had a had a high tessitura and a moderate tempo. An excruciating solo that any performer would find taxing to the extreme. The orchestra, having never heard the piece before was on tenterhooks as he negotiated his way through what was obviously a dangerous passage. He did so without so much as a "nicked" note and we all knew that he'd overcome an huge obstacle to his career. He was rewarded with the traditional shuffle of feet that musicians give each other for a "well done". What happened next was one of the most cruel things I've ever seen from a podium, when the conductor said, "Once again, from the top" ! There was a collective groan from the ensemble and without a moment for rest, the downbeat came again. After hearing the difficulty of the opening, the orchestra was especially attuned to the trumpet solo which was again performed without the slightest imperfection. This time, the end of the solo was met with a rousing ovation from the ensemble and even the conductor, who had hoped to "break" the trumpeter, was forced to voice his approval of what he'd just heard.

That's the story. Now, consider if you might possibly be recovering from Covid 19. We know so very little about Covid's effects downstream of having contracted the illness and the definite possibility that it is a factor in these mysterious symptoms. As we DO know, some folks are asymptomatic and one of the characteristics of the disease is a soreness in muscle tissue. Something to be considered ? I think so.

JCBone · by **JCBone** » 2021-04-01 2:25 p.m.

[quote="harrisonreed"]<QUOTE author="Vegasbound" post_id="144885" time="1617266645" user_id="7093">
Phil Smith suffered focal dystonia[/quote]

He sure did, and still does. Started with air leaking out of his corners.
</QUOTE>
I believe Stephan Dejersky (or however you spell it) From the berlin phil (Associate principal horn) also had this.

BGuttman · by **BGuttman** » 2021-04-01 2:30 p.m.

Bell's Palsy is a virus that settles in the facial muscles. I had a friend (and fine trombone player) who came down with it and had to give up trombone. She switched to cello (good choice since her husband plays double bass). Again, have a doctor check you out for this.

sungfw · by **sungfw** » 2021-04-02 8:02 p.m.

[quote="JCBone"]I believe Stephan Dejersky (or however you spell it) From the berlin phil (Associate principal horn) also had this.[/quote]

Stefan de Leval Jezierski had ~~[url=https://youtu.be/Waxz-DiET00?t=1738]~~Bell's Palsy, not task specific focal dystonia.

tskeldon · by **tskeldon** » 2021-04-04 11:14 a.m.

Hi eveyone,

Thank-you for you generous input. I had considered the neurological aspect, but Bell's palsy is, I think, typically characterized by facial weakness and drooping, and is generally, though not always temporary. I have/had no drooping and no real weakness, as I can still play easily in the high-register, with facility and flexability,

It seems to manifest as ever diminishing control and responsiveness. Its the 'feel' or 'feedback' that seems to be gone or to have been traded away, though I have no actual loss of feeling or sensation in my lips or embouchure. I have no 'placement' problems, my jaw position has not changed, nor has the cant of my deploy of the horn.

I had also considered the Covid aspect, knowing that it is given to settle in (as viruses are want to do) and weaken the nerve branch it takes up residence in, like shingles, but I had hoped that it was something more closely akin and less indelible like fatigue. I think that a Covid test is in order though.

It may be relevant that I have labored to...'escape' conventional trombone practices to realize an instrumental freedom and facility not normally achieved on trombone in the classical sense. We all know jazz greats whose technique transcends the instrument's conventions, but no one has yet pursued it purposefully classically.

By practicing and using extreme alternate positions, I was able to play the challenging technical sections in the Schumann clarinet and cello pieces that I mentioned at or beyond typical or even accelerated cello and clarinet speed (where the music demanded it) with little or no trombone artifact to betray it beyond tone.

The goal had been to achieve the facility of valves while using a slide. I had begun to wonder what if any it might be costing me to develop a consonant sound when playing all notes in foreign positions. I wondered if somehow I was trading away a 'solid' center to my embouchure by requiring of it things that perturb its health & happiness.

My tone suggests that everything was/is fine, but maybe that is just a reflection of the general resilience of the skin on my lips is fine, not that the muscles are sound. I stopped playing for three weeks, and found that in returning it was difficult to play above high F (above high Bb). Is that a normal or accelerated decay of strength?

I'm going to play now. If it goes according to convention, the first notes will feel familiar and sound on the face. The process of continuance however is greeted these days by tragedy of being increasingly divorced from reliability of...anything.

I think that there my be a neurologist in my future, as the Focal Dystonia seems the most likely agent. There may also be a zoom meeting in my future. Thanks for your help, your advice, and your patience.

Doug_Elliott · by **Doug_Elliott** » 2021-04-04 12:30 p.m.

I'm around if you want me to take a look.

tskeldon · by **tskeldon** » 2021-04-05 12:22 p.m.

Thanks Doug! I'm less concerned with recovery than I am with documenting my experience to profit others who actually make their living playing. This condition would prove a horrible fate for an individual who is vocationally, emotionally, psychologically, and financially immersed and invested in music making.

For me, taking up playing again was just a way to explore what I suspected was the unrealized potential of the instrument, and I guess, by extension, evidence of occult or dormant talent that had been left unrealized in me (in a previous life) for having pursued proficiency by subscription to paradigms of play that I didn't resonate with.

paulyg · by **paulyg** » 2021-04-06 7:17 p.m.

I had/am having a very similar experience.

I was doing a LOT of playing- 3-4 hours of practice per day, using habits not built around that length of practice time, on top of rehearsing in groups. This probably went on for three months. I was frustrated with the lack of progress and just pushed harder and harder. I put myself under pretty extreme demands- volume, flexibility, stamina, range, being able to double without any prep, that kind of thing.

I noticed after a while that my exhaustion at the end of the practice session would actually be better described as discomfort. Eventually it turned into pain. Instead of being able to rip off a three-octave scale, I was struggling to play above a D above the staff.

I decided to take a week off. That didn't fix it. Then I got sick- took two weeks off. That didn't fix it either. I may have been seeing SOME improvement, but really nothing immediately noticeable. I was very gun shy, and had to force myself to play.

Covid hit, and I decided to take 10 weeks off the horn. I came back VERY slowly, and really focused on getting a resonant, straight sound, which is something that I was struggling with long before I started having these issues (and may have driven me to overwork myself).

A month into that I finally bit the bullet and got a lesson with Doug. I don't want to go point-by-point through that experience (I'm sure it differs for most of the people who get lessons with him), but I distinctly remember apologizing for not being warmed-up. He said something to the extent of "people always want to sound good for me, that's not why I'm here."

He set me right on some things I was doing wrong. Not only did my progress take off after I combined his advice with diligent practice, but I finally got a grip on the resonant, centered sound that I've been chasing for YEARS. It's amazing what doing things the right way can fix.

I still have occasional discomfort when I really go for it (usually a reminder that I'm reverting to the old ways), and my endurance isn't near where it used to be, but I can do a hell of a lot more now than I could a year and a half ago. I've rebuilt a solid range, and I can make it through a Rochut or five- with a much fuller, resonant, centered sound than I'd ever produced in the "before" times.

Take a lesson with Doug, you won't regret it.

tskeldon · by **tskeldon** » 2021-04-08 12:07 p.m.

Thanks for responding. I wish you well with your continued recovery. It must be frustrating for you. My situation is considerably different. I was playing only 45-60 minutes per day, and at a very high level (playing very challenging repertoire, with good resonant tone, free of artifact), without being much challenged by it in terms of effort.

I had little or no pressure marks on my lips (what little there is is gone in mere minutes), and no sense of fatigue, let alone pain. I knew I was getting tired only when, much to my surprise, on occasion I missed a jump from something low to D above high Bb (Schumann), and had to think about the approach; something I don't normally need to do.

I wasn't a developing player in any sense, although now I can barely control my play at all. In fact, I can still do it all, I just can't control it. Its almost like my embouchure is physically drunk! There is no lack of strength, just a lack of willingness to obey. It goes there eventually, but not with out a concerted 'intendedness' on my part.

That is not, I suggest, a component of any capable players experience. At some point of competency, playing and the coordination of skills and physical requirements necessary to it become autonomic and natural. That is what is gone! I had the tools and technique I needed to do anything, and now I can't reliably do anything 'when' I want to.

I made a recording I could use to propose and frame how much things have gone wrong, but have realized that its trapped on a dedicated 'Pro Tools" laptop with both a failed operating system that needs to be reinstalled, and a failed power supply that was taken out by a power surge. I wonder if I was taken out by a similar surge.

tskeldon · by **tskeldon** » 2021-04-08 12:47 p.m.

Just for reference: I am (hope to again) playing classical style on a small tenor trombone to a purpose: to recover the lost 'Helden' quality of the trombone's historical tonal signature, and propose an improved future technique and facility to propel the trombone into more...virtuosic is not the right word...'musically adroit' modes of play, wherein the its voice is no longer...limited, embarrassed, dependent <I>upon excuse</I> of its mechanics to win musical appreciation.

I use a mouthpiece suitable to the instrument and that is similar to a 7C, but with a much larger throat, and no cylindrical aperture. As I think of it, in a sense, this is 'already' a Doug Elliot problem, in the sense that the Williams trombone I am happily and successfully using for this discovery was originally Doug's! So, by misappropriation of logic, this is probably Doug's fault by association. LOL! It seems only fitting that he be involved in its clean-up.

tskeldon · by **tskeldon** » 2021-04-08 2:15 p.m.

CORRECTION! I have just finished playing in front of a mirror, and realized more accurately that air is not leaking from the actual corners as I had carelessly described it, but rather from the region of the lips outside of the rim, but abutting or adjoining it.

That being the case, I'm wondering if my efforts to play with what may turn out to be 'insufficient' pressure (is that even a thing?) has allowed, invited, caused, the iris of my embouchure to elongate (widen) for lacking a described (by relation to rim) end, to the point that it has escaped the confines of what is a fairly narrow rim. Thoughts?

Because my bodies neuromuscular memory remembers playing on a large bore symphonic instrument with a large mouthpiece, it had crossed my mind that I may 'input' too much energy for this a smaller set-up; which facilitates all aspects of play except volume. Those of you with experience at doubling might have some insights. Please share!

Burgerbob · by **Burgerbob** » 2021-04-08 2:40 p.m.

Get a lesson with Doug.

Vegasbound · by **Vegasbound** » 2021-04-08 3:41 p.m.

Have a lesson with Doug

Wilktone · by **Wilktone** » 2021-04-08 5:25 p.m.

There's really now way to say what's going on without watching you play. If you're able to post video of your chops while playing I'm happy to take a look. Sometimes I can spot something helpful that way. Having Doug check out your chops in a video lesson would be most likely to get good results than me scoping things out on the quick, though.

I was playing only 45-60 minutes per day, and at a very high level (playing very challenging repertoire, with good resonant tone, free of artifact), without being much challenged by it in terms of effort.

Issues can happen, even with fine players. I've had my share of issues too, which sent me to Doug back in 1997 for the first time. More recently ~~[url=https://trombonechat.com/viewtopic.php?f=11&t=19286]~~I got his help to work on a correction that's been plaguing me for years, even though I knew what I was doing.

Again, if you can post or send video of your embouchure I'll take a look and let you know what I see.

Dave

Doug_Elliott · by **Doug_Elliott** » 2021-04-08 8:34 p.m.

[quote="tskeldon"]That being the case, I'm wondering if my efforts to play with what may turn out to be 'insufficient' pressure (is that even a thing?) has allowed, invited, caused, the iris of my embouchure to elongate (widen) for lacking a described (by relation to rim) end, to the point that it has escaped the confines of what is a fairly narrow rim. Thoughts?"[/quote]

Insufficient pressure is definitely a thing, but without seeing you play I'm not going to make that assumption or anything else.

And thinking of the embouchure as an iris is not necessarily a good model.

paulyg · by **paulyg** » 2021-04-08 8:42 p.m.

I'm not convinced that you understand the magnitude of your issue. This is not going to get better on its own.

tskeldon · by **tskeldon** » 2021-04-09 3:09 p.m.

Thank you all! I do understand the magnitude of my issue both as it presents in my play, and in my general constitution, though I suspect you do not. That being the case, while being able to play well would be nice (playing after an amateur fashion would not), playing is not central to my happiness.

Regardless, it is time to buy a new computer to service a Zoom/Teams style on-line conference platform such as would enable a consultation with Doug. It is just a cosmic misalignment that my phone (a tiny iPhone 6SE) is also out of commission at the same time as my laptop. As I do not practice social media, so this is not normally a hardship.

P.S. I just played, and nothing has changed, nor did I expect it to, though I am additionally starting to lose facility as a result of a lack of practice, in addition to whatever else may be troubling my play.

paulyg · by **paulyg** » 2021-04-10 3:55 p.m.

I'm beginning to think somebody got lost on the way to the trumpet forum.

tskeldon · by **tskeldon** » 2021-04-13 11:33 a.m.

[quote="paulyg"]I'm beginning to think somebody got lost on the way to the trumpet forum.[/quote]

Hello.

I don't understand. Are you trying to be funny; are you accusing me of trolling; or, do you know this condition to more frequently plague trumpet players? That possibly being the case I will certainly explore that option too. This is most certainly not a cause for humor, though some may take delight in it. Thank-you!

Tim

tskeldon · by **tskeldon** » 2021-04-13 11:41 a.m.

[quote="Doug Elliott"]<QUOTE author="tskeldon" post_id="145426" time="1617905751" user_id="3471">
That being the case, I'm wondering if my efforts to play with what may turn out to be 'insufficient' pressure (is that even a thing?) has allowed, invited, caused, the iris of my embouchure to elongate (widen) for lacking a described (by relation to rim) end, to the point that it has escaped the confines of what is a fairly narrow rim. Thoughts?"[/quote]

Insufficient pressure is definitely a thing, but without seeing you play I'm not going to make that assumption or anything else.

And thinking of the embouchure as an iris is not necessarily a good model.
</QUOTE>

Hi Doug!

Don't worry, I don't think of the embouchure as an iris, that was just a device for directing shared mindedness. In fact I don't think of the embouchure at all, as I've never had to, and maybe that's part of my future failing. I am however, by nature and vocation possessed of strong critical faculties, which I am using to explore and define my situation.

Tim

Doug_Elliott · by **Doug_Elliott** » 2021-04-13 12:29 p.m.

You have stated that you're not interested in fixing it, you just want to talk about it. Hence, the other comment about trumpet forums.

tskeldon · by **tskeldon** » 2021-04-18 10:27 a.m.

[quote="Doug Elliott"]You have stated that you're not interested in fixing it, you just want to talk about it. Hence, the other comment about trumpet forums.[/quote]

No, I said only that playing wasn't central to the thesis of my life; as I hope would be the case for any healthy individual, with foreign interests, who is not required to perform for a living.

I did however ask specifically for those individuals to post who had or were suffering similar conditional symptoms, so I am first gladdened and then saddened that none persist, describing then my fate!

My experience of trumpet players and their forums is that they were willing to 'talk' about matters of pedagogy decades before trombonists 'decided' to walk musically upright. Evolution is present everywhere here now.

The tenets of my eventual ambition and aspirations for this instrument were forged decades ago (albeit it divorced from any declared musical want or invitation to it). Modern license may still prove it...unpopular.

However, despite my enthusiasm for the trombone, and what I had hoped to prove to be its commonly under-realized' lyrical potential, it is reasonable to assume that I might find greater purchase on a trumpet forum.

If the neurologist has anything interesting to say I will post that as relevant 'talk'. Otherwise, I will simply adopt a course as dictated by my own musical and analytical competency, until the outcome seems indelibly writ.

Thanks to everyone who posted!

Burgerbob · by **Burgerbob** » 2021-04-18 1:21 p.m.

So you don't want to play again...?

Doug_Elliott · by **Doug_Elliott** » 2021-04-18 1:36 p.m.

Neurologists know nothing about brass playing.

A diagnosis of FD serves one purpose : Disability.

Kbiggs · by **Kbiggs** » 2021-04-18 2:27 p.m.

[quote="tskeldon"]

I am however, by nature and vocation possessed of strong critical faculties, which I am using to explore and define my situation.

Tim[/quote]

I, too, am blessed/cursed by a mind that tends towards analysis and—unfortunately—anxiety. One thing I learned in my late teens-early twenties was that too much analysis and gathering too much information about pedagogy can be detrimental to one’s playing. In fact, talking too much about it and not actually playing correctly contribute to the feeling that “something is not right.” Self-diagnosis is rarely accurate.

So, from one former sufferer of analysis-by-paralysis, and who spent too much time thinking about playing rather than playing... I would again suggest a lesson with a qualified professional. Doug Elliott has offered his services here. He’s very good, and there are numerous people here on TC (and elsewhere) who can attest to his ability to diagnose and recommend a course of treatment.

timothy42b · by **timothy42b** » 2021-04-19 8:21 a.m.

[quote="Doug Elliott"]Neurologists know nothing about brass playing.

A diagnosis of FD serves one purpose : Disability.[/quote]

Sometimes i wonder what they do know.

My primary care referred me to one last visit, I'm having some memory issues and a little involuntary mouth movement. The neurologist did a bunch of expensive tests and told me I didn't have dementia. Yeah, I'd figured that part out on my own. Then he wanted me to to come back for a followup. If you've already told me you can't help me, why do you think I'm going to pay for another appointment?

That said, it was good to have an MRI and rule out anything serious, I guess.

Wilktone · by **Wilktone** » 2021-04-20 8:49 a.m.

I just wanted to reiterate some things I said earlier.

[quote="Wilktone"]I have an educated guess as to what might be going on, but I'd have to see how you're playing, tskeldon. If my guess is right, it would further take some careful experimentation to figure out what you should be doing to make your corrections. I'm happy to do watch a video of your playing or meet with you via Zoom to give you my thoughts, but if you have the chance to do this with Doug Elliott he has more experience with this than me.[/quote]

To be clear, I'm not asking you to pay me for a lesson. I'm willing to check out your chops out of professional curiosity.

[quote="Wilktone"]<QUOTE>I was playing only 45-60 minutes per day, and at a very high level (playing very challenging repertoire, with good resonant tone, free of artifact), without being much challenged by it in terms of effort.[/quote]

Issues can happen, even with fine players. I've had my share of issues too, which sent me to Doug back in 1997 for the first time. More recently ~~[url=https://trombonechat.com/viewtopic.php?f=11&t=19286]~~I got his help to work on a correction that's been plaguing me for years, even though I knew what I was doing.

Again, if you can post or send video of your embouchure I'll take a look and let you know what I see.

Dave
</QUOTE>

I'm not a medical doctor, so I can't diagnose or treat a medical condition. However, I should be able to spot issues in your embouchure form and at least describe the direction you want to go. Actually making the corrections can take a lot of time and effort, particularly the longer you've been playing in a way that isn't correct. As I discuss in the thread I linked to in the quote above, I had been playing for years in a way that had been "working," but eventually started causing troubles that I needed to fix. I got into that situation because what I was doing helped, to a degree, but everything I was doing was too far towards my extreme upper register which finally started inhibiting my playing in my "normal" range.

Without watching you play, it's not possible to say with any certainty what you're doing, but there's a fair chance that it's something similar. It seemed to "work" for you for a while, so you're probably inclined to feel that it's the correct thing for you to do. Or possibly it's something that you're not even aware that you're doing (or not doing).

Hit me up with a PM or email if you'd like me to watch you play and give you my free advice. Hit up Doug if you want a more serious lesson. Or do both and see if our suggestions jive.

Dave

PaulTdot · by **PaulTdot** » 2021-04-20 10:44 p.m.

[quote="Doug Elliott"]Neurologists know nothing about brass playing.

A diagnosis of FD serves one purpose : Disability.[/quote]

If I understand the science correctly - and, granted, that's a big "if" - the diagnosis of "task-specific focal dystonia" is a very technical way of saying "we don't see anything wrong with you in any measurable way, but you're clearly having trouble playing, so good luck figuring it out, because we have no idea".

(I'd be happy to be corrected on this point, if I'm wrong.)

Doug_Elliott · by **Doug_Elliott** » 2021-04-20 11:52 p.m.

That is exactly correct.

tskeldon · by **tskeldon** » 2021-05-07 11:59 a.m.

Hi everyone,

Thank-you for your continued support, and thank-you David for clarifying your experience. In my case I wasn't pursuing the extreme upper register, as I have always had that facility. Other than playing the Alan Kaplan MMO ballads, I don't ever persist in the high register, I simply move up into it as the music requires without any accommodation of embouchure, as is testified to by the speed and facility with which I can leave and return.

I haven't played now for yet another 3 week term, as I am waiting for my appointment with the neurologist. It is therefore relevant that I am in Canada, and that it is not uncommon to wait 6 months or more to get in to see a specialist even if you are 'connected'; even if you are dying! That is the true state of 'free' Canadian healthcare.

After that I will likely register my public embarrassment by taking people up on their kind offer of diagnostic.

I think PaulT is correct; though attempts have been made to tie it to Parkinson's. I have read what there is, and there isn't much hope it seems except to avoid the practice that proves the condition! That reminds me of a less than 'super' hero character I once saw in a movie that had the power of invisibility, so long as no one was looking at him. My dysphonia will go away then as long as I never check to see if it is still there.

So, Its a case of the 'emperor has no clothes', except that in this case 'the clothes have no emperor'. Nevertheless, I will report out...likely just before I post my instruments for sale. Stay tuned. Otherwise, this is just one of many catastrophic equipment failures I have experienced this year. Fortunately, however, this is the only organic one, and its prognosis is less than an inconvenience.

Tim

P.S. So far I have been unable to recover the on-board library of corrupted wave files taken out by a catastrophic failure of Windows 10, which also took out the modelling software used by my Antelope Audio Zen interfaces and Edge Duo and Verge modelling mics to prove the evolution of my performance thesis on the use of extreme alternate positions and natural slurs to defeat unmusical 'trombonisms' without sacrifice of tone. Should have used a 'cloud'.

timothy42b · by **timothy42b** » 2021-05-07 12:41 p.m.

[quote="tskeldon"]

I think PaulT is correct; though attempts have been made to tie it to Parkinson's. I have read what there is, and there isn't much hope it seems except to avoid the practice that proves the condition![/quote]

That's not my impression, from the reading I've done. This is discussed a fair amount on a number of musical forums as well as athletic ones. Haney wrote a really interesting book on his experiences with something similar in golf.

From what I read, there is a camp that assigns the various dystonias to a neurological impairment, and another camp that is skeptical that this is true more than rarely if ever. But the treatment is exactly the same from either side - to relearn the activity in a completely different manner. (and hopefully a more mechanically correct manner)

There are a fair number of success stories so the idea there is no hope except avoidance doesn't seem right.

Wilktone · by **Wilktone** » 2021-05-12 9:06 a.m.

[quote="tskeldon"]Thank-you for your continued support, and thank-you David for clarifying your experience. In my case I wasn't pursuing the extreme upper register, as I have always had that facility. Other than playing the Alan Kaplan MMO ballads, I don't ever persist in the high register, I simply move up into it as the music requires without any accommodation of embouchure, as is testified to by the speed and facility with which I can leave and return.[/quote]

Tim, I doubt that my situation directly relates to you. My embouchure type is uncommon and the sort of things that I need to do are different from what the majority of players want to do. That said, one point I don't think I made clearly enough is that the range where I was running into trouble wasn't really my upper register, but the cause of the issue was mainly because I was too far in the direction of my upper register at that point.

My offer to check out your embouchure on Zoom or video still stands. I promise you'll get your money's worth (free advice).

Dave

timothy42b · by **timothy42b** » 2021-05-12 12:09 p.m.

[quote="Wilktone"]

My offer to check out your embouchure on Zoom or video still stands. I promise you'll get your money's worth (free advice).

Dave[/quote]

Yes, share. We don't all have expertise, but we certainly all will have an opinion. Pix or it didn't happen!

I am also on a disc golf forum, and constantly working to improve my unathletic swing. Here there is a subforum where everyone posts video of their form, and anyone can comment. But it's immediately obvious who the heavy hitters are, the people who know biomechanics and can post relevant videos for improvement. The point is it's a safe place to share, partly because other noobs do too, and it's the way we improve.

Reedman1 · by **Reedman1** » 2021-05-28 1:02 a.m.

For sure you should have a lesson with Doug. But I’d like to mention something no one has mentioned: posture. I’m just guessing: you may be standing with your head a bit forward, which would put extra pressure on your embouchure and distort your proprioception. See if you can check that out - maybe a physical therapist or massage therapist could watch you play - and if a postural correction doesn’t help. If it helps, great, and if it doesn’t, you didn’t have to spend a long time or a lot of money to rule it out. Alexander Technique might be something to look into, too.

harrisonreed · by **harrisonreed** » 2021-06-05 10:17 a.m.

[quote="tskeldon"]Thanks Doug! I'm less concerned with recovery than I am with documenting my experience to profit others who actually make their living playing. This condition would prove a horrible fate for an individual who is vocationally, emotionally, psychologically, and financially immersed and invested in music making.

For me, taking up playing again was just a way to explore what I suspected was the unrealized potential of the instrument, and I guess, by extension, evidence of occult or dormant talent that had been left unrealized in me (in a previous life) for having pursued proficiency by subscription to paradigms of play that I didn't resonate with.[/quote]

Is this not a late return to the creation of the "APGTMPS" technical volume? Don't tease me!

PaulTdot · by **PaulTdot** » 2021-06-14 6:52 p.m.

Do you mean "Pursuing Proficiency by Subscriptions to Paradigms of Play"? Because that would be a killer title... :D

RustBeltBass · by **RustBeltBass** » 2021-06-19 7:19 p.m.

[quote="Wilktone"]A diagnosis of focal task-specific dystonia should only be given by a specialist. No ethical medical professional would even offer a prognosis without first seeing the patient either. I would not recommend that you get a medical diagnosis from a musician over the internet (or even from a musician in person). If you have medical concerns visit your general practitioner and get a referral to a neurologist.
[/quote]

This !

harrisonreed · by **harrisonreed** » 2021-06-19 7:31 p.m.

[quote="PaulTdot"]Do you mean "Pursuing Proficiency by Subscriptions to Paradigms of Play"? Because that would be a killer title... :D[/quote]

Oh it's the other technical volume. You right, you right

I just hope it's written in plain English, as such things are not often wont to do. I'm not intelligent enough to understand even short, elegant sentences like:

So far I have been unable to recover the on-board library of corrupted wave files taken out by a catastrophic failure of Windows 10, which also took out the modelling software used by my Antelope Audio Zen interfaces and Edge Duo and Verge modelling mics to prove the evolution of my performance thesis on the use of extreme alternate positions and natural slurs to defeat unmusical 'trombonisms' without sacrifice of tone.

tskeldon · by **tskeldon** » 2021-09-04 12:00 p.m.

Too droll.

Trombone players...you are too subscribedly of a type! Another round of flat domestic beer for the trombonists in the back row, on my tab! It never gets old. Anyway, the attempt at levity not withstanding, I report that I have made some inroads with my analysis of my condition, despite not yet having had an audience with a neurologist.

I have recently come across a video with Marty Hackelman, <YOUTUBE id="zsAijFagxBg">https://youtu.be/zsAijFagxBg</YOUTUBE> that describes more resonantly a condition that mirrors mine. I was fortunate enough to have played with Marty and very much admired his playing, and respect his input on a matter proximate to his own experience.

Marty is a naturally and abundantly talented french horn player, who after long stints with both Canadian and Empire Brass quintets, returned to orchestral play as the Principal Horn with the National Symphony in DC. Anyway, he describes the condition as I have experienced it, but as monitored by his greater talent.

The onset of my condition started with with particualr and express facility and ease on the instrument, having lost altogether the need to warm-up; though I persisted for a time until I realized that it was no longer necessary. My embouchure always felt strong, responsive, supple and flexable, while growing increasingly noisy.

But, I think that the pursuit of the invitation of that 'ease' of play is the rabbit hole one must not venture down. Of late I have made minor adjustments to my embouchure that returns some of the lost facility without costing me in return. Those changes amount to correcting what was incorrectly reasoned to be 'unneccesary' discipline.

By reinvoking 'constant' tension in the set of my embouchure (which had been eliminated as being extraneous to need) I have recovered some of my facility in middle and lower register; which is where I was having problems getting notes to speak.

The trade off is that the re-introduction of constant muscle intonement is a more tiring mode of play, if however apparently necessary. It will be interesting to see if by persisting with this intended tension, I develop or reaqaint myself with hithertoo accounted 'lost' strength.

Is this contrived 'tightness' the agency that we all started with when first forming an embouchure? I don't remember. Maybe it's 'joker' like inellegance just becomes normal, unaccounted and to a purpose, such that we lose consciousness of its intendness. It is, it seems, the price we must pay to play!

Wilktone · by **Wilktone** » 2021-09-05 10:17 a.m.

Glad to hear that you're making some progress.

If I understand what you're describing correctly, you're firming up your embouchure formation more than you used to? Often times we want playing to feel "effortless" and can play with our embouchure formation too loose. I think that if you give it some time endurance should return, assuming that you're on the right track. Without being able to see and hear you play I'm only guessing.

Dave

PaulTdot · by **PaulTdot** » 2021-09-10 3:09 p.m.

My reading is the same:

If your problems were caused by an embouchure that was too "flabby" or "loose", you're doing the right thing by firming it up. Muscles need to be used properly, to give support for the physical activity you're engaging in. Do it enough, and you grow stronger and more efficient; eventually it can start to feel "effortless", when in reality it's just developing strength, consistency, and efficiency.

Don't fall for the "brass playing shouldn't involve any effort, pressure, or tension" dogma; I've seen it ruin more than a few players. Removing *unnecessary* tension is a definite benefit; but there is also tension and effort that is absolutely necessary - take that away, and you can start compensating in other ways, eventually tearing down your playing completely.

Bach5G · by **Bach5G** » 2021-09-10 4:58 p.m.

Sounds like aging.

mikeln · by **mikeln** » 2022-02-16 2:02 p.m.

Had something similar occur 30 years ago, only affecting one side of my upper lip. Turned out to be Bell's Palsy. After being a professionaly bass trombone player for 25 years at the time, I switched over to Double Bass/Bass Guitar. I occasionally attempt to pick up my horn again, but some of the issues remain.

tskeldon · by **tskeldon** » 2022-10-10 2:54 p.m.

Hello all!

It's happened! The time has come, and I give up! It has been 2 years since my playing began to decline, and 1 1/2 years since I started this thread. No course of remediation has yielded any lasting improvement to my situation, so, having no 'need' to play, I am going to stop playing altogether to spare myself disappointment and start to heal.

I am going to list my Williams trombone (on this forum first) so that 'it' can enjoy a life of 'musical' (rather than purely ornamental) service with someone else. Otherwise, it will only persist in taunting me to take it up again, for standing conspicuously idol, in silent memorial of my failed ambition for my partnership with it.

Thank-you to those of you who posted constructively, and good luck to those of you who are also struggling with this condition. More particularly, my apologies to those of you who I have disappointed, for in failing myself I have also to a greater or lesser degree failed you too, if you were hoping for a successful prescriptive outcome for yourself.

Tim

Bach5G · by **Bach5G** » 2022-10-10 4:29 p.m.

Take up bass trombone.

Burgerbob · by **Burgerbob** » 2022-10-10 4:34 p.m.

did you ever get a lesson with Doug or Dave?

Doug_Elliott · by **Doug_Elliott** » 2022-10-10 6:23 p.m.

No.

If you recall, he was only interested in "documenting" his issues.

BrassedOn · by **BrassedOn** » 2022-10-12 4:05 p.m.

Best to you in your recovery. If any of the conditions people have described turn out to be anyones case, do get soon to a professional medical evaluation. And do take time away from the horn. And make peace with that. Friends have had focal dystonia and Bells palsy, and it took effort and time to the correct assessment and recover.

Different case for me, I had a couple of physical injuries to the face and lip, that could have ended my brass career. Had to take time off and rehab very very slowly. Months. What also helped was some mental health counseling to deal with the potential loss of a big part of my identity, and learning upright bass. Keeping a musical outlet fed my soul while taking time off trombone and tuba. Also, my sense of harmony and such for jazz improved, which I could apply to my horns when I healed. Years later but not immediately I surpassed my prior ability.

Good luck

OompaLoompia · by **OompaLoompia** » 2022-10-12 7:48 p.m.

Crazy how you had two known experts in this thread offering you a consultation while others in the thread pointed you in the direction of the two aforementioned experts, yet you chose not to go that route. You said "no course of remediation has yielded any lasting improvement..." yet it seems like you haven't explored all your options based on Doug's comment from earlier. And being only interested in "documenting" said issues instead of exhausting all your options for recovery is quite an odd decision to say the least. To each his own I guess...

u_2bobone · by **u_2bobone** » 2022-10-12 8:19 p.m.

[quote="Bach5G"]Take up bass trombone.[/quote]

I'm sure that the bass trombone players on this site would not agree with such a dismissive post. Anyone who has seriously attempted to play bass trombone realizes that it is as demanding as playing tenor or alto but in a different way. It appears that the OP thinks playing bass trombone is a "walk in the park" in comparison to tenor. It. Is. Not.

If I misunderstood the intent of the OP I'd appreciate hearing what it is that I misunderstood.

Bach5G · by **Bach5G** » 2022-10-12 9:00 p.m.

[quote="2bobone"]<QUOTE author="Bach5G" post_id="190668" time="1665433773" user_id="2999">
Take up bass trombone.[/quote]

I'm sure that the bass trombone players on this site would not agree with such a dismissive post. Anyone who has seriously attempted to play bass trombone realizes that it is as demanding as playing tenor or alto but in a different way. It appears that the OP thinks playing bass trombone is a "walk in the park" in comparison to tenor. It. Is. Not.

If I misunderstood the intent of the OP I'd appreciate hearing what it is that I misunderstood.
</QUOTE>

Actually the OP said no such thing. I did. With tongue in cheek. More or less.

henrysa · by **henrysa** » 2022-10-13 1:13 a.m.

God I'm glad this marathon is over. I am a very less than average player so not qualified to offer diagnosis as to player's diminished abilities, both physical and mental. But as a former high stakes salesman, I could sense an insufferable client and would exit stage left. You fellows' good natures are to be applauded. Obviously player did not want a solution, but did want us all to play along as he played us all a long time.

u_2bobone · by **u_2bobone** » 2022-10-13 7:48 p.m.

Regarding "Bach 5G's post": "Actually the OP said no such thing. I did. With tongue in cheek. More or less."

Oh ! Pardon me ! Perhaps next time, a video would clarify my misunderstanding ? Sometimes a tongue in cheek is hard to see without visual aids. I see that we are on the same page and apologize for my misunderstanding.

Bach5G · by **Bach5G** » 2022-10-23 4:45 p.m.

Have you tried a Wedge?

tskeldon · by **tskeldon** » 2022-10-25 4:22 p.m.

[quote="OompaLoompia"]Crazy how you had two known experts in this thread offering you a consultation while others in the thread pointed you in the direction of the two aforementioned experts, yet you chose not to go that route. You said "no course of remediation has yielded any lasting improvement..." yet it seems like you haven't explored all your options based on Doug's comment from earlier. And being only interested in "documenting" said issues instead of exhausting all your options for recovery is quite an odd decision to say the least. To each his own I guess...[/quote]

Prior to posting this thread, my research had already proven to my satisfaction that no one 'recovers' completely from dystonia; they just dance or struggle with it to one degree of frustration (and desperation) or another.

Having finally accepted that it really 'is' dystonia, I'm resolved that I have no time or interest to give over to partnering with it, and therefore no need of the methodological work-arounds employed to 'fool' the condition.

Thanks for your concern.

Burgerbob · by **Burgerbob** » 2022-10-25 4:35 p.m.

Is that true, though? I feel that there are several players that have made it back.

Wilktone · by **Wilktone** » 2022-10-26 8:53 a.m.

[quote="tskeldon"]Prior to posting this thread, my research had already proven to my satisfaction that no one 'recovers' completely from dystonia; they just dance or struggle with it to one degree of frustration (and desperation) or another.[/quote]

I'm not sure how complete your research was. There are many cases of players who have recovered from what was diagnosed (by someone, not necessarily a medical professional). I can think of a few off the top of my head, including one local player, who I spent some time working with who then took lessons with Doug. There are at least three other local players I know who had similar chop issues that have gone to Doug for help and they all are still playing and sounding great. I just played a big band gig last weekend with a couple of them.

From what I've seen (both in the musical and medical literature on the subject and from working with players) there is no one-size-fits-all solution to severe embouchure dysfunction (whatever you choose to call it), you need to get advise from someone who knows what to look for and knows how to help work out what you need to be doing.

Having finally accepted that it really 'is' dystonia, I'm resolved that I have no time or interest to give over to partnering with it, and therefore no need of the methodological work-arounds employed to 'fool' the condition.

Have you actually had a diagnosis from a neurologist? Gotten a second opinion? Gotten an embouchure expert to look at your playing for type switching? I wonder if your acceptance is simply giving yourself permission to give up, which seems to be what you were looking for in this topic and in the "research" you say you've done. Correct me if I'm wrong.

I offered earlier to scope out your chops for free. Doug made himself available for a lesson.

But you do you.

Dave

tskeldon · by **tskeldon** » 2022-10-26 10:30 a.m.

Hi Dave,

Yes, I've seen a neurologist and I have peripheral symptoms that support the diagnosis. I guess the point that the kind individuas here don't get (despite me saying it repeatedly) is that I'm just not 'that' concerned with playing the trombone that I'm willing to undertake 'that deliberate' a 'recovery' or address of the matter.

Play has always been easy for me, even effortless to a point, which I think is part of the problem. However, doing what I do, I am very analytical, well practiced, and quite capable of devising new ways to accomodate and possibly ameliorate the condition given what I know about the condition, but who can be bothered without need.

I play both piano and classical guitar and the repertoire for those instruments (outside of jazz) is IMO much better and more musically significant than that which is written for the 'legit' (is that term still appropriate?) trombone. That's why this time out I played only transcriptions, having played everthing else without much joy.

It was nice to play again after 35 years, and should be encouraging to all that it comes back (and then some) so quickly, but the truth is I've no interest in giging or playing in any ensembles, so I can get my 'solo' musical fix more rewardingly and more harmonically completely on those polyphonic instruments.

I'm not rejecting the trombone casually, because I was excited about what I was achieving with extreme alternate positions, but I was previously disatisfied with the limits of what 'I thought' was its persistent performance paradigm, though things now seem to be very much more 'diverse' and player-centric than they once were.

As soon as my instrument is sold, I will be free of its...persistent call to duty (I hadn't maintained an instrument in my home previously). Apparently putting it in the case isn't enough. As is the case with an addict, I keep going back to it, but the highs now aren't as high and don't last as long, and the lows are lower and interminable.

P.S. You know what they say about the patient who has himself for a doctor...

afugate · by **afugate** » 2022-10-26 12:53 p.m.

[quote="tskeldon"]Prior to posting this thread, my research had already proven to my satisfaction that no one 'recovers' completely from dystonia; they just dance or struggle with it to one degree of frustration (and desperation) or another.

Having finally accepted that it really 'is' dystonia, I'm resolved that I have no time or interest to give over to partnering with it, and therefore no need of the methodological work-arounds employed to 'fool' the condition.

Thanks for your concern.[/quote]

I realize you've made your own determination, so this is for others who come across this as they struggle with task specific focal dystonia in their embouchure.

In the trombone world, both David Vining and Dion Tucker have gone on to resume full performing schedules. I visited with Professor Vining at ITF this summer and heard him perform. He certainly doesn't sound as though he is fooling his condition.

In my own situation, I am relearning a different embouchure approach with help from Doug Elliott and Dr. Irv Wagner at The University of Oklahoma. That has allowed me to resume performing. The challenge is that it's darned hard to replace 40+ years of muscle memory. That means I have to be very intentional about warmup and preparation. And although I've always been a very competent sight reader, sight reading causes problems because that's when old muscle memory slips in. I try to avoid sight reading on gigs when possible.

I'll also note that Doug was pretty specific in the instructions he gave me. I still have a long way to go before I will feel like I've "recovered." Today, I'm just excited I didn't have to give up playing. :good:

--Andy in OKC

blast · by **blast** » 2022-10-26 1:10 p.m.

People can come back from these issues....sometimes. I've seen it happen, but sometimes even the best and most diligent players don't come back and not for want of trying. There are lots of variations of this condition.

afugate · by **afugate** » 2022-10-26 2:16 p.m.

[quote="blast"]People can come back from these issues....sometimes. I've seen it happen, but sometimes even the best and most diligent players don't come back and not for want of trying. There are lots of variations of this condition.[/quote]

Yes, indeed. That's also worth noting. Thank you for providing context to my exuberance.

--Andy in OKC

Wilktone · by **Wilktone** » 2022-10-27 10:05 a.m.

Hi, tskeldon.

[quote="tskeldon"]Yes, I've seen a neurologist and I have peripheral symptoms that support the diagnosis.[/quote]

I'm glad that you took the time to get a medical opinion on this, rather than self diagnosing. That said, I wonder a bit about you having "peripheral symptoms" that suggest focal task specific dystonia. FTSD is something that is determined clinically, meaning by checking off what symptoms you have and if those symptoms are consistent, the diagnosis can be given. There are many different things that can cause similar symptoms and if you're serious about addressing it, it's worth getting a second medical opinion and that of someone like Doug or myself who has a background in addressing embouchure type switching.

I guess the point that the kind individuas here don't get (despite me saying it repeatedly) is that I'm just not 'that' concerned with playing the trombone that I'm willing to undertake 'that deliberate' a 'recovery' or address of the matter.

Play has always been easy for me, even effortless to a point, which I think is part of the problem.

A couple of thoughts on this. First, so-called "natural" players are more prone to embouchure breakdowns such as the one you're experiencing. My hypothesis is that most of these players never had to learn how to analyze their technique and when problems arise they don't understand why that can't "muscle" their way through the issues any more. It's sort of like lifting with your back. When you're younger you can get away with this for a while, but when you get older it can take its toll and cause a full blown breakdown.

Most of us have to work very hard to achieve what you apparently have done with little effort. Surely you can understand why those of us who have invested much more time and effort into playing trombone don't understand why you're so willing to put it aside so quickly when offers to help have been given.

However, doing what I do, I am very analytical, well practiced, and quite capable of devising new ways to accomodate and possibly ameliorate the condition given what I know about the condition, but who can be bothered without need.

Well if you don't really care enough to be bothered, then getting any analysis from Doug of me is going to fall on deaf ears. I'm still a bit confused about your interest in "documenting" what you're going through without attempting to address correcting it. It's probably not too helpful for musicians experiencing similar issues to read about someone who simply plans to give it up. I would imagine that those musicians would be more interested in learning about a process to make corrections.

One final thought that I want to mention. You've commented a few times here that you've been exploring a type of playing that is somehow quite different from standard trombone playing (upper register, longer positions, etc.). One thing that I would consider is that in the process of doing this exploration you're allowing yourself to do things in your mechanics that are causing your symptoms. For example, if you're playing your upper register in the outer positions it's possible that you're allowing the slide arm to pull your horn angle to an incorrect position on your face, which can definitely cause some type switching. I've already mentioned earlier that type switching or other mechanical issues in one part of your range can lead to symptoms in another. If you're not in the correct spot to begin with, you're not going to be able to smoothly go to the correct spot in another range.

Best of luck with your future musical endeavors.

Dave

henrysa · by **henrysa** » 2022-10-27 12:34 p.m.

Well written. Everyone's heartfelt efforts to extend a hand or an ear have fallen on deafness. Also frustrating for us bone heads who alternatingly treasure their tiniest improvements and are frustrated by their trombone's refusal to play nice. This thread has taken on a life of it's own now. Like Mr Toad's Wild Ride, it feels like an A ticket at classic Disneyland. Who needs to chase ambulances when you can read the latest installment of this soapless opera sitting on the sofa with my dog. And I've learned so many new scrabble words. If there was only a virtual tip jar I would load it up.

Bach5G · by **Bach5G** » 2022-10-27 1:44 p.m.

Wilktone wrote:

‘First, so-called "natural" players are more prone to embouchure breakdowns such as the one you're experiencing. My hypothesis is that most of these players never had to learn how to analyze their technique and when problems arise they don't understand why that can't "muscle" their way through the issues any more. It's sort of like lifting with your back. When you're younger you can get away with this for a while, but when you get older it can take its toll and cause a full blown breakdown.’

As I’ve aged, I’ve thought about this. In my 20s I had a decent high range. Just muscled it. I recall the local top pro, a young guy at the time, allegedly resisted lifting and arching the tongue. Thinned out the tone he said. In my 40s, the same approach seemed to cause strained throat and neck muscles such that I began to have trouble swallowing.

But now, in my late 60s, I’ve had to learn to play smarter. After lessons from R Sauer and D Elliott, and checking out the horn player, Baadsvik, Epstein and MRI videos on YouTube, I think I’ve got a handle on things. When I’m mindful of using proper technique, those high notes are easier.

tskeldon · by **tskeldon** » 2022-11-14 11:01 a.m.

I guess that means that this thread has exhausted itself. If it is any comfort to those of you who apparently feel disrespected that I didn't 'value' the forum's advice by acting on it (though you should not, because that I don't 'value' the advice in this particular instance doesn't mean that I don't 'appreciate' it, or respect the author or agent attached to it) as if it were something more than an opinion solicited, held personally or collectively (it matters not which), know that I have started to have difficulty with my hands now too that are challenging my ability to play both classical piano and guitar at a similarly refined level. Serves me right! LOL!

Bach5G · by **Bach5G** » 2022-11-14 4:57 p.m.

Diffuse neurological symptomatology does not sound very promising.

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