ybl612
- bigbandbone
- Posts: 602
- Joined: Jan 17, 2019
Is the Yamaha ybl612 a clone of the vintage conn 62h? Are they good horns?
- hornbuilder
- Posts: 1384
- Joined: May 02, 2018
No, but yes.
- Posaunus
- Posts: 5018
- Joined: Mar 23, 2018
"Clone" is a misnomer. "Based on" is probably more accurate. Yamaha looked at the general physical configuration of the Conn bass trombones of the time (1970s), and apparently decided that the "vintage" Conn 62H was worth using as a starting point for their imitative (derivative) design. Many of the configuration details of the YBL-612 are clearly different, and do not resemble more recent 62H trombones. Yamaha trombones in general have an excellent reputation. By reports from others, the YBL-612 is indeed a good trombone. But its design has been superseded by more recent models.
<YOUTUBE id="e-TFds65osA">https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=e-TFds65osA</YOUTUBE>
<YOUTUBE id="e-TFds65osA">https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=e-TFds65osA</YOUTUBE>
- Burgerbob
- Posts: 6327
- Joined: Apr 23, 2018
IMO they are much more similar to the Holton 180 than any Conn, but most of that is superficial I think. Good horns, I prefer them to the 822.
- MrHCinDE
- Posts: 1039
- Joined: Jul 01, 2018
I recently got one of the later ii models, the 612Rii. I used to have a loaned 612 for a while about 20 years ago. I agree both are closer to a TR180 than any Conn I‘ve tried, including the 62h.
Positives: Even sound across all registers, Very accessible pedals, Responsive, Sound can be coloured if required, Slide and valve mechanics, Available with factory D and Eb slides which both fit in case (I know, this is only a small thing but I appreciate the thought from Yamaha), Can be found used for approx. half the new price of its successor, the 620G
A bit meh: Interchangeable leadpipe would be nice, suppose this can be fixed though and the stock one is pretty good anyway, 2nd valve trigger position takes some getting used to
No so good: Needs quite a bit of care to play very loud in legit settings, Some folks don‘t like the 10“ bell as they reckon it doesn‘t project so well. I‘m not sure I agree having heard other people play them and project quite easily in a trombone section alongside 4 tubas, 2 euphoniums and 2 baritones in British brass bands, then again I‘ve heard others play them less successfully with a blatty sound that doesn’t carry very well and can certainly ‚achieve‘ this with my horn if I‘m not careful.
Positives: Even sound across all registers, Very accessible pedals, Responsive, Sound can be coloured if required, Slide and valve mechanics, Available with factory D and Eb slides which both fit in case (I know, this is only a small thing but I appreciate the thought from Yamaha), Can be found used for approx. half the new price of its successor, the 620G
A bit meh: Interchangeable leadpipe would be nice, suppose this can be fixed though and the stock one is pretty good anyway, 2nd valve trigger position takes some getting used to
No so good: Needs quite a bit of care to play very loud in legit settings, Some folks don‘t like the 10“ bell as they reckon it doesn‘t project so well. I‘m not sure I agree having heard other people play them and project quite easily in a trombone section alongside 4 tubas, 2 euphoniums and 2 baritones in British brass bands, then again I‘ve heard others play them less successfully with a blatty sound that doesn’t carry very well and can certainly ‚achieve‘ this with my horn if I‘m not careful.
- JCBone
- Posts: 373
- Joined: Jul 29, 2020
I have a 611II which is very similar. Nice horn. But I prefer to use my YBL322 in the orchestra since I find it rather difficult to blend in.
- Crazy4Tbone86
- Posts: 1654
- Joined: Jan 14, 2020
A few Yamaha 612s have come through the shop over the years. Thus, I have play-tested them, but only a few hours at a time. Nice horns. For me, they play very even across all registers for the soft and mezzo dynamics. In the loud spectrum, I find the tone is a little tricky to manage.
- lupusargentus
- Posts: 38
- Joined: Apr 07, 2021
I have a 612 and really like it. Dependent trigger is not an issue for me. It blows easy and plays well across the whole range. It does have a rather "poppy" sound which makes it great for big band and similar. Blends well with baritone sax. Not a horn for a large orchestra since it edges out a high volume but it works well for any bass trombone part I'll ever play.
- tbonesullivan
- Posts: 1959
- Joined: Jul 02, 2019
Nice horns, and yes they are based on the 62H, but not clones of them. Phil Teele played on them up until his passing. I love mine.
- Bach5G
- Posts: 2874
- Joined: Apr 07, 2018
[quote="tbonesullivan"]Nice horns, and yes they are based on the 62H, but not clones of them. Phil Teele played on them up until his passing. I love mine.[/quote]
He had about fourteen 611s and 612s when he passed, IIRC. Most of them silver plated. I wonder if any TTC-ers got one and what they think of it?
He had about fourteen 611s and 612s when he passed, IIRC. Most of them silver plated. I wonder if any TTC-ers got one and what they think of it?
- FOSSIL
- Posts: 688
- Joined: Jul 09, 2019
[quote="tbonesullivan"]Nice horns, and yes they are based on the 62H, but not clones of them. Phil Teele played on them up until his passing. I love mine.[/quote]
Can I ask in what way is the Yamaha 'based' on a Conn 62H and where you heard that information?
Chris
Can I ask in what way is the Yamaha 'based' on a Conn 62H and where you heard that information?
Chris
- Bach5G
- Posts: 2874
- Joined: Apr 07, 2018
YBL 612: 10” bell, no slide tuning. Two pretty obvious dissimilarities.
- tbonesullivan
- Posts: 1959
- Joined: Jul 02, 2019
[quote="FOSSIL"]<QUOTE author="tbonesullivan" post_id="145746" time="1618180878" user_id="7063">
Nice horns, and yes they are based on the 62H, but not clones of them. Phil Teele played on them up until his passing. I love mine.[/quote]
Can I ask in what way is the Yamaha 'based' on a Conn 62H and where you heard that information?
Chris
</QUOTE> When I first got it back on the old forum, someone had mentioned that, though the 62H is a TIS horn. Maybe they meant the 73H?
Nice horns, and yes they are based on the 62H, but not clones of them. Phil Teele played on them up until his passing. I love mine.[/quote]
Can I ask in what way is the Yamaha 'based' on a Conn 62H and where you heard that information?
Chris
</QUOTE> When I first got it back on the old forum, someone had mentioned that, though the 62H is a TIS horn. Maybe they meant the 73H?
- imsevimse
- Posts: 1765
- Joined: Apr 29, 2018
There is nothing that makes me think of a YBL-612R as close to either a Conn 62H (I have one) or a Holton TR-180 (I have two).
The YBL 612R was my first bass trombone. It is easy to play, a 10" bell that spread the sound a lot, a nice red bell, very good pedals and a real "woofy" sound on the triggers. It came with second valve in Eb but I ordered the D-slide and started to play like that. The high register was what had me buy another bass trombone eventually. Already above first ledger C it began to loose timbre and I had to work a lot to "thin" the sound to be able to play in unison with smaller tenors for example. Above f it was real difficult for me as I remember, but it was 10 years since I abandoned that bass for a Conn 73H and then the basses started to flood my house.
It was when I played with others that I noticed the sound did not match the section. I soon noticed the horn plays more open with the Eb-slide inserted. I wondered why? Then I noticed it played even better with no slide in the second valve.
I did not need that second valve much anyway in the music I played so I often played without it and used corks to prevent dirt and rubbish to go down the open tubes. Was it less weight or less stress that opened up the sound and made it fit the section better? :idk: .
Later I had a tech make me a bE slide. I used it a lot and it was then better than with the Eb-slide but still not as good as with no tuningslide in the second valve. It was only when I had a need for a B that I used the bE-slide. I had not knowledge the first doubles were made with a second valve in E.
With this horn I discovered that less weight opens up a horn (at least that horn). The "roll" was strange.
It was easy to go from two valves to one valve but not that easy to do the reverse. I played that horn for about 20 years until I bought the Conn 73H used which came with a second valve in E.
I liked the YBL-612R because it was so easy to play in the low register. The pedals were great. Today when I have so many bass trombones I rather play my Conn 62H. For me a Conn 62H gives a totally different sound and feel and any of my Holton TR-180 is more fun to play compared to the YBL-612R, but that's me..
/Tom
The YBL 612R was my first bass trombone. It is easy to play, a 10" bell that spread the sound a lot, a nice red bell, very good pedals and a real "woofy" sound on the triggers. It came with second valve in Eb but I ordered the D-slide and started to play like that. The high register was what had me buy another bass trombone eventually. Already above first ledger C it began to loose timbre and I had to work a lot to "thin" the sound to be able to play in unison with smaller tenors for example. Above f it was real difficult for me as I remember, but it was 10 years since I abandoned that bass for a Conn 73H and then the basses started to flood my house.
It was when I played with others that I noticed the sound did not match the section. I soon noticed the horn plays more open with the Eb-slide inserted. I wondered why? Then I noticed it played even better with no slide in the second valve.
I did not need that second valve much anyway in the music I played so I often played without it and used corks to prevent dirt and rubbish to go down the open tubes. Was it less weight or less stress that opened up the sound and made it fit the section better? :idk: .
Later I had a tech make me a bE slide. I used it a lot and it was then better than with the Eb-slide but still not as good as with no tuningslide in the second valve. It was only when I had a need for a B that I used the bE-slide. I had not knowledge the first doubles were made with a second valve in E.
With this horn I discovered that less weight opens up a horn (at least that horn). The "roll" was strange.
It was easy to go from two valves to one valve but not that easy to do the reverse. I played that horn for about 20 years until I bought the Conn 73H used which came with a second valve in E.
I liked the YBL-612R because it was so easy to play in the low register. The pedals were great. Today when I have so many bass trombones I rather play my Conn 62H. For me a Conn 62H gives a totally different sound and feel and any of my Holton TR-180 is more fun to play compared to the YBL-612R, but that's me..
/Tom
- FOSSIL
- Posts: 688
- Joined: Jul 09, 2019
[quote="tbonesullivan"]<QUOTE author="FOSSIL" post_id="145768" time="1618215062" user_id="7109">
Can I ask in what way is the Yamaha 'based' on a Conn 62H and where you heard that information?
Chris[/quote] When I first got it back on the old forum, someone had mentioned that, though the 62H is a TIS horn. Maybe they meant the 73H?
</QUOTE>
Thanks for your reply. It's a sad fact that if a thing is repeated often enough, it becomes accepted fact and you simply repeated a thing you had seen again and again, which is reasonable and understandable. The term clone is very, very rarely applicable in the world of trombones...even in China...actually especially in China as it happens. That one comes from personal experience and I may start another thread about copies.
Chris
Can I ask in what way is the Yamaha 'based' on a Conn 62H and where you heard that information?
Chris[/quote] When I first got it back on the old forum, someone had mentioned that, though the 62H is a TIS horn. Maybe they meant the 73H?
</QUOTE>
Thanks for your reply. It's a sad fact that if a thing is repeated often enough, it becomes accepted fact and you simply repeated a thing you had seen again and again, which is reasonable and understandable. The term clone is very, very rarely applicable in the world of trombones...even in China...actually especially in China as it happens. That one comes from personal experience and I may start another thread about copies.
Chris
- SwissTbone
- Posts: 1138
- Joined: Mar 23, 2018
[quote="FOSSIL"]<QUOTE author="tbonesullivan" post_id="145836" time="1618279222" user_id="7063">
When I first got it back on the old forum, someone had mentioned that, though the 62H is a TIS horn. Maybe they meant the 73H?[/quote]
Thanks for your reply. It's a sad fact that if a thing is repeated often enough, it becomes accepted fact and you simply repeated a thing you had seen again and again, which is reasonable and understandable. The term clone is very, very rarely applicable in the world of trombones...even in China...actually especially in China as it happens. That one comes from personal experience and I may start another thread about copies.
Chris
</QUOTE>
Chris,
That would definitely be an interesting topic!
If we can keep politics out of it...
When I first got it back on the old forum, someone had mentioned that, though the 62H is a TIS horn. Maybe they meant the 73H?[/quote]
Thanks for your reply. It's a sad fact that if a thing is repeated often enough, it becomes accepted fact and you simply repeated a thing you had seen again and again, which is reasonable and understandable. The term clone is very, very rarely applicable in the world of trombones...even in China...actually especially in China as it happens. That one comes from personal experience and I may start another thread about copies.
Chris
</QUOTE>
Chris,
That would definitely be an interesting topic!
If we can keep politics out of it...
- imsevimse
- Posts: 1765
- Joined: Apr 29, 2018
[quote="FOSSIL"]
Chris,
That would definitely be an interesting topic!
If we can keep politics out of it...[/quote]
Lol :D Wise, Chris! :good:
/Tom
Chris,
That would definitely be an interesting topic!
If we can keep politics out of it...[/quote]
Lol :D Wise, Chris! :good:
/Tom
- modelerdc
- Posts: 352
- Joined: May 03, 2018
Back in the 1970s, A friend and I stopped by Shilke's in Chicago. We got to meet Mr. Schilke, and as we were both bass trombone players, he showed us two prototypes he was developing for Yamaha. One had a valve wrap similar to the double trigger Reynolds, the other looked like the 611-612 horns. Asked if they were based on Conns, Schilke said that the Conns were a good starting point, but that the Horns were not copies but original designs. I asked him if he was going to produce them. Schilke said no, that he was paid more by Yamaha to develop them then he would ever make if he tried to make and sell them himself.
- EOlson9
- Posts: 130
- Joined: Apr 19, 2018
I used to have a YBL-612Rii. It seemed unfocused in general no matter which mouthpiece I used with it. Played it alongside the Conn 62H Gen 2 I now own and had my instructor listen to me with both horns. The Conn just was cleaner and easier to articulate cleanly. A friend of mine bought it and has had it ever since. It works fine for him.
- DougHulme
- Posts: 558
- Joined: Apr 27, 2018
Chris will correct me if I am wrong but I have always thought their YBL321, which was the first bass they ever made was based on a Conn? Seemed to me they then developed their basses on their own from that and therfore lost any real reference to any Conn pedigree. I remember the 611's or whichever was the first double trigger comming out and when I played one the first time... thinking this was totally different to the 321, different metals, different size bells, different wrap (I know there was a second trigger but often there is a throw back to the horn that goes from 1 to 2 triggers) They really had gone independant in their thinking even if the valves were dependant! (terrible line, sorry about that). The other interesting story I was told many many years ago and I dont express any belief in its authenticity, but I was told that there was a period of a year or so when Yamahas production was interrupted (like they moved factories or had a fire or something) and they paid Conn to make the YBL321's for that period for them... sounds plausible but unlikely - did anyone else ever hear that story?... Doug