Bach Steiner horn has arrived?

LowBrassJunkie · by **LowBrassJunkie** » 2021-04-13 12:16 p.m.

<LINK_TEXT text="https://www.hornguys.com/collections/me ... r-trombone">https://www.hornguys.com/collections/medium-tenor-trombones/products/bach-artisan-a47-peter-steiner-model-tenor-trombone</LINK_TEXT>

harrisonreed · by **harrisonreed** » 2021-04-13 12:52 p.m.

And it's free!

Bach5G · by **Bach5G** » 2021-04-13 1:29 p.m.

Priceless?

Burgerbob · by **Burgerbob** » 2021-04-13 3:44 p.m.

Looks like the Gen II 88H valve cap. Wonder if they just used that rotor with different port arrangement.

Thrawn22 · by **Thrawn22** » 2021-04-13 3:52 p.m.

There's more thought put that horn then the 88HNV. Sorta goes to proving my point where Selmers priorities are.

Posaunus · by **Posaunus** » 2021-04-13 6:33 p.m.

[quote="Burgerbob"]Looks like the Gen II 88H valve cap. Wonder if they just used that rotor with different port arrangement.[/quote]

From Bach:

"Peter Steiner - .562" traditional rotor with open-port X-brace wrap. The wrap design is compact for opera pit work, allows an open feel with its straight tubes, and the X-gives an additional bracing point for center and projection. Water dump is quick through the rotor. Rotor is based on the Conn Gen 2 with improved portage."

tbonesullivan · by **tbonesullivan** » 2021-04-14 3:07 a.m.

That valve cover definitely looks like the Conn Gen 2, which I think is the same one used on the Benge Trombones as well.

I still have no idea why Bach didn't decide to improve their valve long ago, but then again, Bach's motto always seems to have been "we designed it so well in the past that we never have to redesign it".

Tbarh · by **Tbarh** » 2021-04-14 3:28 a.m.

Wow... Lightweight brass version available... Lots of other options too.. <EMOJI seq="1f44d" tseq="1f44d">👍</EMOJI><EMOJI seq="1f601" tseq="1f601">😁</EMOJI>

harrisonreed · by **harrisonreed** » 2021-04-14 3:28 a.m.

They do the X-wrap but don't add the B pull feature from the kissbone? Lame.

Oh wait both of those things would be stealing someone else's idea. Or is it OK because it's Bach?

chromebone · by **chromebone** » 2021-04-14 8:23 a.m.

[quote="Burgerbob"]Looks like the Gen II 88H valve cap. Wonder if they just used that rotor with different port arrangement.[/quote]
I think It’s just the King 4B valve. Old wine in new bottles.

whitbey · by **whitbey** » 2021-04-14 10:55 a.m.

Looks like the Kiss bone wrap.

harrisonreed · by **harrisonreed** » 2021-04-14 11:40 a.m.

[quote="whitbey"]Looks like the Kiss bone wrap.[/quote]

Yeah, but without the key feature! How could you leave out the B pull?

sferg · by **sferg** » 2021-05-04 6:26 p.m.

For spring 2021 Bach is offering these new A47 Artisan trombone options:

25 hand slides

Bore: .525", .525-.547", .547", .547-.562", .562"

Metal options:

all brass with nickel oversleeves like 42

LW brass

brass w/nickel crook

LW brass w/nickel crook

LW all-nickel like LT42

A47 hand slides now include 3 threaded leadpipes

14 bells

B47 - Artisan mandrel: brass, gold brass, or LW gold brass, with flat rim wire

B42 - Stradivarius mandrel: brass, gold brass, or LW gold brass, with standard rim wire

B88 - Conn mandrel: rose brass

All available with fixed or screw flare. Screw bell hard case is available.

3 valvesets and...

A47BO - rotary, standard wrap

A47X - rotary, X-wrap

A47I - infinity axial

A47 - straight neckpipe

3 tuning slides

brass, gold brass, nickel

The Peter Steiner model A47XPS includes .547" standard hand slide, SB47GLW LW gold brass bell with screw flare, X-valveset, brass tuning slide and hard case. Also available as A47X with yellow brass fixed bell.

tombone21 · by **tombone21** » 2021-05-04 9:35 p.m.

Mannnnnnnn I gotta know what's up with that B88 bell

Posaunus · by **Posaunus** » 2021-05-05 2:06 a.m.

[quote="tombone21"]Mannnnnnnn I gotta know what's up with that B88 bell[/quote]

Hmm. B88 bell - Conn mandrel: rose brass. Perhaps Conn trombones will eventually blend into Bach? I think Conn-Selmer believes that Bach is their strongest brand name. :idk:

General Motors dumped Pontiac and Olds, Buick will be next; Ford dumped Mercury, Lincoln may be next; Chrysler dumped DeSoto, Plymouth, and (pretty much) Dodge.

It may be that C-S wants to streamline the trombone catalog, and offer lots of "custom" options for the Bach line of trombones that could incorporate former Bach (and King?) features.

Note that there are no more Holton trombones, only a few Holton French horns left, perhaps a few baritones, euphoniums, & tubas. Conn and King trumpets, etc. are (I think) now pretty rare. How many brands of tubas does C-S want to sell? ... Corporate watchword: Simplify in hard times!

Anyone here have any inside information or juicy gossip / speculation?

chromebone · by **chromebone** » 2021-05-05 8:30 a.m.

They still sell a lot of 88H’s and 3B’s; they are even coming out with a new 88H variant, so I don’t thing the Conn or King brands are going anywhere, especially since Conn is half the the name of the company.

They are trying to compete with Shires and Edwards, but they don’t want to make the investment in making the infinite variety of bells that those companies do; offering the Conn mandrel is an inexpensive way to give more options. I wouldn’t be surprised if the “Artisan” mandrel was simply a Holton or King mandrel they already laying around.

The big bucks for them are school and marching instruments. They make way more money pushing a sale of 6 $8000 sousaphones out the door to a high school or university than they do on a Peter Steiner trombone.

It is sad, though, CS has pretty well destroyed a lot of great brands and models through the years all in the name of corporate streamlining.

harrisonreed · by **harrisonreed** » 2021-05-05 9:12 a.m.

Conn Sousas sound good though, FWIW

spencercarran · by **spencercarran** » 2021-05-05 9:42 a.m.

Egads that price is steep. (Showing $5300 at Hornguys now... you could have Matthew Walker handbuild a completely custom horn for that money, no?)

[quote="Posaunus"]Note that there are no more Holton trombones, only a few Holton French horns left, perhaps a few baritones, euphoniums, & tubas. Conn and King trumpets, etc. are (I think) now pretty rare. How many brands of tubas does C-S want to sell? ... Corporate watchword: Simplify in hard times!

Anyone here have any inside information or juicy gossip / speculation?[/quote]

Is Holton officially dead? Last I heard they'd moved production into the Elkhart facility with a smattering of Bach components.

Also curious to know what's going on in Eastlake; I remember reading that facility was closed for COVID last summer but I assume they still want to sell some school tubas for this fall.

chromebone · by **chromebone** » 2021-05-05 9:50 a.m.

There are no Holton trombones on their website anymore. I think C-S mostly bought Leblanc for its woodwind brands and decided to let the Holton name die on the vine.

castrubone · by **castrubone** » 2021-05-05 10:29 a.m.

[quote="chromebone"]There are no Holton trombones on their website anymore. I think C-S mostly bought Leblanc for its woodwind brands and decided to let the Holton name die on the vine.[/quote]

Still on the website. I know the Holton bass trombone actually sells pretty well and is one of the top selling bass bones for schools still.

chromebone · by **chromebone** » 2021-05-05 10:40 a.m.

I tried the sort by brand and there wasn’t even a category for Holton Trombones under the Holton brand name. Maybe C-S could use the money they’re saving by recycling old designs and upgrade their sorry website a little.

spencercarran · by **spencercarran** » 2021-05-05 10:47 a.m.

They haven't added the new Bach or Conn trombones to the site yet, it seems. And the Bach 39 alto isn't listed anywhere I can find - has it been discontinued, or is their website just bad?

Burgerbob · by **Burgerbob** » 2021-05-05 10:52 a.m.

The 47 bell flare is a custom flare, modeled after a Mt Vernon 42 with a bit narrower bell throat, different thickness profile, and a French bead. It's not something they had lying around.

The new 88 bell compatibility is just them trying to compete with the boutiques. You can mix and match the "Bach" and "Conn" components with Shires, why not with the real thing?

chromebone · by **chromebone** » 2021-05-05 10:53 a.m.

I think the 39 has been discontinued, it used to be on the site and I don’t see any dealers with any in stock. they were selling way more 34/36 h’s. The 39 is a great sounding horn, but it’s a beast to play in tune.

And yes, their website is just awful. Really inexcusable for such a large company. They don’t update it, it’s not attractive to look at, and it’s difficult to navigate.

EOlson9 · by **EOlson9** » 2021-05-05 11:33 a.m.

So, I wasn't interested in this horn until now. Since they added an Conn 88 bell as an option, and I could get a dual bore .547/.562 slide with axial flow valve, that makes me raise an eyebrow. That sort of price point is way above what my wife would let me spend on a trombone though!

harrisonreed · by **harrisonreed** » 2021-05-05 5:31 p.m.

[quote="chromebone"]I think the 39 has been discontinued, it used to be on the site and I don’t see any dealers with any in stock. they were selling way more 34/36 h’s. The 39 is a great sounding horn, but it’s a beast to play in tune.

And yes, their website is just awful. Really inexcusable for such a large company. They don’t update it, it’s not attractive to look at, and it’s difficult to navigate.[/quote]

Hickeys still has it listed.

harrisonreed · by **harrisonreed** » 2021-05-05 6:01 p.m.

[quote="spencercarran"]Egads that price is steep. (Showing $5300 at Hornguys now... you could have Matthew Walker handbuild a completely custom horn for that money, no?)[/quote]

Yeah but it's what Peter Steiner plays!

<ATTACHMENT filename="O_Rly_3_Burn.gif" index="0">~~[attachment=0]~~O_Rly_3_Burn.gif</ATTACHMENT>

BGuttman · by **BGuttman** » 2021-05-05 7:04 p.m.

I could play Joe Alessi's horn and still not sound like Joe Alessi :tongue:

TheBoneRanger · by **TheBoneRanger** » 2021-05-05 8:23 p.m.

When are the 50’s going to get some love?

Andrew

Burgerbob · by **Burgerbob** » 2021-05-05 9:21 p.m.

[quote="TheBoneRanger"]When are the 50’s going to get some love?

Andrew[/quote]

I think they are so much lower volume than the 42s that it's pretty far down the order. I'd love to see a HUGE streamlining of that particular model range...

sferg · by **sferg** » 2021-05-06 12:00 a.m.

[quote="TheBoneRanger"]When are the 50’s going to get some love?

Andrew[/quote]

I found 50 love in the new 50AF3 with Infinity rotors and Euro bracing. The 50AF3 bells are modular like Artisan and they offer 4 diff. 50 bells in 2 sizes. 50 and LT50 hand slides now have optional threaded leadpipes, and if you substitute an Artisan .562" hand slide, there are even more hand slide options.

MrHCinDE · by **MrHCinDE** » 2021-05-06 1:55 a.m.

[quote="spencercarran"]Egads that price is steep. (Showing $5300 at Hornguys now... you could have Matthew Walker handbuild a completely custom horn for that money, no?)[/quote]

I had the same thought (substitute Mick Rath for Matthew Walker).

You have to wonder whether there is enough of a market for modular horns in the $5k+ bracket to justify this range and whether those looking to buy in that price category will prefer Bach over the many other options.

Good luck to them, I‘d love to try one but based on other Bach instruments I‘ve tried in showrooms over the years but I’d have a hard time shelling out a retail price of 6000€+ i.e. the same as other Artisan models over here in Germany, even the ‚offer price’ of 4400€ that other Artisan models are available for would be hard to justify.

Is there any reason to suggest the Artisan range has a better QA and consistency than the standard range?

Tbarh · by **Tbarh** » 2021-05-06 2:14 a.m.

[quote="Burgerbob"]The 47 bell flare is a custom flare, modeled after a Mt Vernon 42 with a bit narrower bell throat, different thickness profile, and a French bead. It's not something they had lying around.

The new 88 bell compatibility is just them trying to compete with the boutiques. You can mix and match the "Bach" and "Conn" components with Shires, why not with the real thing?[/quote]
Are the 88 Bell option a two piece (like a real Conn) or a one piece like a Bach?

Burgerbob · by **Burgerbob** » 2021-05-06 2:35 a.m.

[quote="Tbarh"]<QUOTE author="Burgerbob" post_id="147891" time="1620226368" user_id="3131">
The 47 bell flare is a custom flare, modeled after a Mt Vernon 42 with a bit narrower bell throat, different thickness profile, and a French bead. It's not something they had lying around.

The new 88 bell compatibility is just them trying to compete with the boutiques. You can mix and match the "Bach" and "Conn" components with Shires, why not with the real thing?[/quote]
Are the 88 Bell option a two piece (like a real Conn) or a one piece like a Bach?
</QUOTE>

Assuming here, but it's probably literally an gen II 88H flare with a slightly different receiver and Artisan mounting hardware. Spun just like all the others but ends up in a different place in the factory. No need to make it complicated!

Slidemo · by **Slidemo** » 2021-05-06 6:17 a.m.

They don't even need to change the TS receiver, they are the same. I had a 42G bell interchangable on my 88H for a while. It's back on a 42T now.

IIRC Old man Bach took measurements from the Conn's at the time when designing his Trombones so it seems we have just come full circle.

RJMason · by **RJMason** » 2021-05-06 10:59 a.m.

I’m excited for the new possibilities. I’ve always wanted an 88H bell on a Bach setup. There are definitely players that after trying modern boutique brands end up going back to (usually heavily modified) Bach or Conn setups. The sounds are classic, but the lack of options lead to experimenting in repair shops. Excited to try to some direct from the factory, especially the new .525 slides, when I can.

Matt_K · by **Matt_K** » 2021-05-06 11:29 a.m.

[quote="RJMason"]I’m excited for the new possibilities. I’ve always wanted an 88H bell on a Bach setup. There are definitely players that after trying modern boutique brands end up going back to (usually heavily modified) Bach or Conn setups. The sounds are classic, but the lack of options lead to experimenting in repair shops. Excited to try to some direct from the factory, especially the new .525 slides, when I can.[/quote]

I'm definitely one of those people. I played a Bach 42 for awhile, then I swapped out a Shires slide, etc. until I ultimately ended up on the Shires "Conn 88" setup with a 2RVET7 + Rotor + T47LW. So far that's been the horn I've had in my stable the longest... ever. I think I've had that same setup for 7 or so years now.

I played around with some other setups while I still had the Bach parts and the "standard" parts of the setup definitely worked better for me on either of them. I had a 42 bell mounted for Shires, Shires Thayer valve, TB47YC and the other set of components. Both setups played well, but when I started mixing and matching parts... not so much. 2RVET7 + Thayer + TB47 was absolutely awful for me.

Tbarh · by **Tbarh** » 2021-05-06 3:17 p.m.

[quote="Burgerbob"]<QUOTE author="Tbarh" post_id="147935" time="1620281650" user_id="3637">

Are the 88 Bell option a two piece (like a real Conn) or a one piece like a Bach?[/quote]

Assuming here, but it's probably literally an gen II 88H flare with a slightly different receiver and Artisan mounting hardware. Spun just like all the others but ends up in a different place in the factory. No need to make it complicated!
</QUOTE>
Exactly... I thaught so too... Makes it more of a Conn than a Bach then.. <EMOJI seq="1f609" tseq="1f609">😉</EMOJI>

elmsandr · by **elmsandr** » 2021-05-07 11:03 a.m.

[quote="MrHCinDE"]<QUOTE author="spencercarran" post_id="147882" time="1620222144" user_id="10390">
Egads that price is steep. (Showing $5300 at Hornguys now... you could have Matthew Walker handbuild a completely custom horn for that money, no?)[/quote]

I had the same thought (substitute Mick Rath for Matthew Walker).

You have to wonder whether there is enough of a market for modular horns in the $5k+ bracket to justify this range and whether those looking to buy in that price category will prefer Bach over the many other options.

Good luck to them, I‘d love to try one but based on other Bach instruments I‘ve tried in showrooms over the years but I’d have a hard time shelling out a retail price of 6000€+ i.e. the same as other Artisan models over here in Germany, even the ‚offer price’ of 4400€ that other Artisan models are available for would be hard to justify.

Is there any reason to suggest the Artisan range has a better QA and consistency than the standard range?
</QUOTE>
The problem here is... when you want to sound like a Bach it really kinda has to be a Bach. Tried making an Edwards sound like a 50B for years. Even put a 50B flare on it. Sounded pretty good. Got closer. Eventually found a Bach and spent near this amount making it into what I wanted it to be.

So, yes, there is a market. How big is it and how well will they be able to fill it? That is the question.

Cheers,

Andy

Matt_K · by **Matt_K** » 2021-05-07 11:32 a.m.

I think the amount of equipment wonks is heavily over-represented here (*cough* me *cough*). There are a lot of people who just want to pick up a horn that plays reasonably well and make no decisions or only decisions they find to be minimally predictive such as bell material. There's really nothing inherently wrong with either approach but yeah... if I had the cash and wanted to drop it on a horn, I'd probably not reach for modular Bach offerings first. But who knows, maybe these things blow the socks off of people and everyone starts playing them.

skeletal · by **skeletal** » 2021-05-13 8:49 p.m.

There's 3 modular makers (Bach Artisan, Shires, Edwards) and three boutique fixed makers (Schilke Greenhoe, M&W, BAC) plus a smattering of euro brands. Surely there's not enough market share to go around. This feels like a passion project for a Conn-selmer executive there is no way they are going to recoup tooling and development costs anytime soon.

Burgerbob · by **Burgerbob** » 2021-05-13 8:52 p.m.

[quote="skeletal"]There's 3 modular makers (Bach Artisan, Shires, Edwards) and three boutique fixed makers (Schilke Greenhoe, M&W, BAC) plus a smattering of euro brands. Surely there's not enough market share to go around. This feels like a passion project for a Conn-selmer executive there is no way they are going to recoup tooling and development costs anytime soon.[/quote]

I'm sure they have more access to the sales numbers than our guesses.

hornbuilder · by **hornbuilder** » 2021-05-13 10:28 p.m.

[quote="skeletal"]There's 3 modular makers (Bach Artisan, Shires, Edwards) and three boutique fixed makers (Schilke Greenhoe, M&W, BAC)[/quote]

Just to clarify... M&W do both detachable and non-detachable bells. Customer choice. And screw bells for both options as well.

And for what it's worth, if you look at the horn in question, it is made up of pretty much standard Conn and Bach parts. Obviously the wrap is new, but that isn't "terribly" expensive to tool up for. A couple grand, if that. (depending on if Bach have machining capabilities on site, or if they have tooling made for them.)

spencercarran · by **spencercarran** » 2021-05-14 12:12 p.m.

[quote="hornbuilder"]And for what it's worth, if you look at the horn in question, it is made up of pretty much standard Conn and Bach parts. Obviously the wrap is new, but that isn't "terribly" expensive to tool up for. A couple grand, if that. (depending on if Bach have machining capabilities on site, or if they have tooling made for them.)[/quote]
Which makes the listed price tag that much more confusing. If the big innovation here is the ability to mix-and-match their existing components... that's cool, I guess, but is it more than five grand cool?

harrisonreed · by **harrisonreed** » 2021-05-14 5:11 p.m.

No, you guys don't get it -- it's Peter Steiner! I heard the horn comes with a certificate promising that he playtested it for at least an hour, they didn't clean it afterwards, and that a small piece of his robe/bones/ash is integrated into a hidden reliquary within the rotor casing.

It also promises that they'll do a free update to B pull on the borrowed kissbone wrap once they figure out the bugs -- that's new territory and no one has done that before.

StevenHolloway · by **StevenHolloway** » 2021-05-14 5:18 p.m.

IMO Steiner made the wrong move switching to Bach just like Alessi made the wrong move switching to Shires. Maybe it was a better business deal, but it wasn’t a better deal for their sounds...

RustBeltBass · by **RustBeltBass** » 2021-05-16 2:03 p.m.

I am not writing this in response to the Steiner model which obviously I haven’t played (nor has anyone else here from what I gather). But generally speaking and in my very humble opinion I feel Conn Selmer has one major problem:

They can not seem to fix the fact that they are producing horns that are not as good as horns with the same brand names (although very different ownership/built etc) that were built 30, 40 or more years ago. That is not to say they are doing a bad job of course. But if the legacy is bigger than their current product, that is a problem.

When I think of professional colleagues I had the chance play with or next to, I’d say the majority plays Edwards or Shires. Of those who I know to play Bach 42/50 models, I’d say the majority of them plays horns that are old(vintage) or heavily modified/improved horns (Greenhoe comes to mind). I can not think of too many people I play or played with who play Stock Bachs, made within the last 20 or so years.

What all of them have in common is their love for this classic and unique Bach sound that often has been discussed. I am not working in the instrument building industry and I am sure there are many good reasons for why they do what they do in terms of marketing and product release that I just don’t understand because of a lack of information but I can not help but think that it would make more sense to improve their quality standards to what they were decades ago, rather than trying to join the competition for custom horn options which they will not be able to succeed in against the many options Shires and Edwards and others offer.

Indiebass1993 · by **Indiebass1993** » 2021-05-18 10:04 p.m.

[quote="Burgerbob"]<QUOTE author="TheBoneRanger" post_id="147922" time="1620260635" user_id="2973">
When are the 50’s going to get some love?

Andrew[/quote]

I think they are so much lower volume than the 42s that it's pretty far down the order. I'd love to see a HUGE streamlining of that particular model range...
</QUOTE>

Same here. I remember playing a 50AF3 a few years ago and was impressed. Played another, not so much. Ended up going with a Shires Curran model

olivegreenink · by **olivegreenink** » 2021-05-19 8:00 a.m.

[quote="Matt K"]I think the amount of equipment wonks is heavily over-represented here (*cough* me *cough*).[/quote]

My thoughts exactly. I find that folks (pros and hobbyists alike) who join a dedicated forum for ANY topic are not representative of the average user. I have read these same sentiments on a whole host of other topics/sites over the years - few probably more pronounced than early-2000s car audio which had an assortment of boutique brands competing with a large number of national brands.

I cannot draw conclusions about CS’s sales, but can assume there are still plenty of schools and parents who are more comfortable with a “national name brand.” …perhaps even ESPECIALLY when the horn is in on the high end price wise. That contingent is likely far less than it was prior to the abundance of info/resources online to be sure, but I personally imagine it’s still a commonality among many making financial/purchasing decisions.

All that said, I also feel the $5k is relative. We could be talking about tubas, bassoons, pianos, cellos, harps, etc.

Personally I generally like my horns to be used and look used. I prefer even then to find something lesser known. But if I were ever in the market for a new horn, I know myself and I’d want a ton of obscure custom options - even though there is no way my playing would be able to showcase the subtle differences - all configurations would still sound like someone who has no need for a $5k horn lol.

Cheers

Matt_K · by **Matt_K** » 2021-05-19 8:30 a.m.

[quote="olivegreenink"]<QUOTE author="Matt K" post_id="148040" time="1620401547" user_id="48">
I think the amount of equipment wonks is heavily over-represented here (*cough* me *cough*).[/quote]

I cannot draw conclusions about CS’s sales, but can assume there are still plenty of schools and parents who are more comfortable with a “national name brand.” …perhaps even ESPECIALLY when the horn is in on the high end price wise. That contingent is likely far less than it was prior to the abundance of info/resources online to be sure, but I personally imagine it’s still a commonality among many making financial/purchasing decisions.

All that said, I also feel the $5k is relative. We could be talking about tubas, bassoons, pianos, cellos, harps, etc.
</QUOTE>

Absolutely. Lots of people who are hobbyists and have the cash to burn too. $5k isn't all that much if you've been pulling in 150-250k a year for a decade and make an impulse purchase on vacation at ATW. It doesn't have to be the best horn for everyone, it just has to be liked by a couple dozen people at the right time every year. Probably not a huge obstacle to overcome when you're a name brand like Bach or Conn.

harrisonreed · by **harrisonreed** » 2021-05-19 1:19 p.m.

I got the impression that not many horns were moving at ATW a few years back. A few dozen of one model? Hmmmm

"...on vacation at ATW ...."

That's a good one...

Hobart · by **Hobart** » 2021-05-20 6:00 p.m.

Is it just me, or is it somewhat ironic the Conn valve is probably going to play more open on the Bach than one of Bach's stock rotors?

EOlson9 · by **EOlson9** » 2021-05-20 6:04 p.m.

[quote="Hobart"]Is it just me, or is it somewhat ironic the Conn valve is probably going to play more open on the Bach than one of Bach's stock rotors?[/quote]

:good: I love the irony as well. Also, greetings from the other side of the state!

BGuttman · by **BGuttman** » 2021-05-20 6:49 p.m.

[quote="EOlson9"]<QUOTE author="Hobart" post_id="148833" time="1621548022" user_id="7669">
Is it just me, or is it somewhat ironic the Conn valve is probably going to play more open on the Bach than one of Bach's stock rotors?[/quote]

:good: I love the irony as well. Also, greetings from the other side of the state!
</QUOTE>

Not a surprise to me at all. Bach used the same rotor on the 36 and 42. It's great on the 36 but is woefully small on the 42. It's the reason we have the Thayer and all those other newer valves. Conn had a larger valve on the 88H, as did King on the 4B, Holton on all their horns, Yamaha on their large bore horns, etc. I never thought about valve size with my King 4B -- it just worked.

chromebone · by **chromebone** » 2021-05-20 7:32 p.m.

[quote="Hobart"]Is it just me, or is it somewhat ironic the Conn valve is probably going to play more open on the Bach than one of Bach's stock rotors?[/quote]

The Conn rotor always played more open than the post Mt. Vernon/extremely early Elkhart (Marsden) 42 valve.

The Conn Rotor used now is a descendant of the King/Benge rotor that first appeared on the 88h during the UMI era. But even the old Elkhart/Abilene 88h rotor played more open than that Selmer era designed 42 valve.

Burgerbob · by **Burgerbob** » 2021-05-20 8:30 p.m.

I'm not sure how that would be "ironic" in any case

EOlson9 · by **EOlson9** » 2021-05-21 12:30 p.m.

[quote="Burgerbob"]I'm not sure how that would be "ironic" in any case[/quote]

I took it as "to open up the blow on a Bach, put on a Conn valve", which I agree with.

Burgerbob · by **Burgerbob** » 2021-05-21 12:34 p.m.

[quote="EOlson9"]

I took it as "to open up the blow on a Bach, put on a Conn valve", which I agree with.[/quote]

I mean, it is a bit strange, but "ironic?"

ithinknot · by **ithinknot** » 2021-05-21 12:51 p.m.

[quote="Burgerbob"]<QUOTE author="EOlson9" post_id="148909" time="1621614646" user_id="3100">
I took it as "to open up the blow on a Bach, put on a Conn valve", which I agree with.[/quote]

I mean, it is a bit strange, but "ironic?"
</QUOTE>

I believe this is what Aristotle termed the Morissette Conundrum

EOlson9 · by **EOlson9** » 2021-05-21 12:55 p.m.

[quote="ithinknot"]<QUOTE author="Burgerbob" post_id="148910" time="1621614890" user_id="3131">

I mean, it is a bit strange, but "ironic?"[/quote]

I believe this is what Aristotle termed the Morissette Conundrum
</QUOTE>
:D

Hobart · by **Hobart** » 2021-05-22 1:38 a.m.

[quote="Burgerbob"]<QUOTE author="EOlson9" post_id="148909" time="1621614646" user_id="3100">

I took it as "to open up the blow on a Bach, put on a Conn valve", which I agree with.[/quote]

I mean, it is a bit strange, but "ironic?"
</QUOTE>

It's the opposite of what you'd expect, the line Conn-Selmer pushes the most has to borrow parts from the underdog Conn, which they've gutted in the last few years, to make a well-playing horn.

I'm wondering why they didn't do this sooner. It wouldn't be hard to make the stock 42 play a little bit better by replacing the smaller Bach rotor with correct-sized ones they make for other trombones finished in the same shop as Bach.

Burgerbob · by **Burgerbob** » 2021-05-22 2:18 a.m.

Well, at the time the 88H Gen 2 was designed and released, it was the top dog at Conn-Selmer. :idk:

spencercarran · by **spencercarran** » 2021-05-22 12:03 p.m.

[quote="Burgerbob"]Well, at the time the 88H Gen 2 was designed and released, it was the top dog at Conn-Selmer. :idk:[/quote]

An extra impressive feat given that Conn-Selmer didn't even exist at the time 😉

RustBeltBass · by **RustBeltBass** » 2021-05-22 10:35 p.m.

[quote="spencercarran"][quote=Burgerbob post_id=148989 time=<a href="tel:1621664283">1621664283</a> user_id=3131]

Well, at the time the 88H Gen 2 was designed and released, it was the top dog at Conn-Selmer. :idk:[/quote]

An extra impressive feat given that Conn-Selmer didn't even exist at the time 😉

[/quote]

I believe at the time it was still UMI. What I would like to know from those who were around back when the Gen II came out:

Did they make a lasting impression in the USA? Was that considered an instrument usable in the professional scene ? What were the reactions to its release/relaunch ?

I graduated from college in 2014 and I do not need 5 fingers to count the people I met in professional settings using Conns here. In Germany I met a few people who use the GENII but it is not super common.

harrisonreed · by **harrisonreed** » 2021-05-22 11:11 p.m.

The GenII I got in 2004 is awesome. I know many who used them in a professional setting but really the Shires and Edwards are dominant. Most of those who were known to play Conn are on Shires (money) Edwards (they like how they play), or Rath (see Edwards)

Jmloudon · by **Jmloudon** » 2021-05-22 11:33 p.m.

[quote="harrisonreed"]The GenII I got in 2004 is awesome. I know many who used them in a professional setting but really the Shires and Edwards are dominant. Most of those who were known to play Conn are on Shires (money) Edwards (they like how they play), or Rath (see Edwards)[/quote]

Pretty sure John Sipher in Utah plays one currently.

tombone21 · by **tombone21** » 2021-05-23 9:24 a.m.

[quote="harrisonreed"]Most of those who were known to play Conn are on Shires (money)[/quote]

I would love to hear even one instance of this happening

Burgerbob · by **Burgerbob** » 2021-05-23 10:06 a.m.

[quote="tombone21"]<QUOTE author="harrisonreed" post_id="149041" time="1621739469" user_id="3642">
Most of those who were known to play Conn are on Shires (money)[/quote]

I would love to hear even one instance of this happening
</QUOTE>

Ralph Sauer

harrisonreed · by **harrisonreed** » 2021-05-23 10:16 a.m.

[quote="tombone21"]<QUOTE author="harrisonreed" post_id="149041" time="1621739469" user_id="3642">
Most of those who were known to play Conn are on Shires (money)[/quote]

I would love to hear even one instance of this happening
</QUOTE>

<YOUTUBE id="NtjwizTI3wU">~~[media]~~https://youtu.be/NtjwizTI3wU</YOUTUBE>

<YOUTUBE id="gQ_gYSRKwVg">~~[media]~~https://youtu.be/gQ_gYSRKwVg</YOUTUBE>

I don't think it's fair that you left out the rest of the quote. There are even more who dipped out to go to Edwards and Rath. And there is nothing wrong with that.

RustBeltBass · by **RustBeltBass** » 2021-05-23 12:45 p.m.

I believe (but don’t know for sure) that the San Diego Symphony section has a history of using Conns, I believe the Lindberg version though.

tombone21 · by **tombone21** » 2021-05-23 2:24 p.m.

I’m pretty sure in that video, Ralph Sauer details how his horn came to be. Shires wasn’t his first choice. He approached Conn after his 8H bell got crunched for a 2nd time and they refused to develop some sort of Connprimise with Sauer. I believe Ian Bousfield also approached Conn about developing an artist model, with the same results.

I only used half your quote because of the way you posit that players could only be drawn to Shires for financial reasons, when they have by far the largest roster of artists and the top players coming from both sides of the Bach-Conn spectrum. Edwards can keep blowing their xenophobic dog whistle with their “eVeRy PaRt mAdE iN tHe UsA” rhetoric on social media while their players continue to move over to Shires. Whatever you gotta do to stay relevant I guess, it must be a business thing I could never possibly understand.

Burgerbob · by **Burgerbob** » 2021-05-23 3:29 p.m.

[quote="tombone21"]I’m pretty sure in that video, Ralph Sauer details how his horn came to be. Shires wasn’t his first choice. He approached Conn after his 8H bell got crunched for a 2nd time and they refused to develop some sort of Connprimise with Sauer.[/quote]

So, oddly enough, they DID do a bunch of work with Ralph to make a custom instrument. I have played one of the prototypes (a forum member owns it) and it's an AMAZING horn. I'm not exactly sure why the project fell through in the end.

spencercarran · by **spencercarran** » 2021-05-23 3:54 p.m.

[quote="RustBeltBass"]I believe at the time it was still UMI. What I would like to know from those who were around back when the Gen II came out:

Did they make a lasting impression in the USA? Was that considered an instrument usable in the professional scene ? What were the reactions to its release/relaunch ?

I graduated from college in 2014 and I do not need 5 fingers to count the people I met in professional settings using Conns here. In Germany I met a few people who use the GENII but it is not super common.[/quote]
By the time Gen II hit the market in the mid-90s the boutique/custom makers were probably grabbing enough attention from orchestral pros. I believe UMI (and later Conn-Selmer) were always primarily focused on the "advanced student" market. Most of my high school were on Gen II Conns.

harrisonreed · by **harrisonreed** » 2021-05-23 6:15 p.m.

[quote="Burgerbob"]<QUOTE author="tombone21" post_id="149075" time="1621794269" user_id="3952">
I’m pretty sure in that video, Ralph Sauer details how his horn came to be. Shires wasn’t his first choice. He approached Conn after his 8H bell got crunched for a 2nd time and they refused to develop some sort of Connprimise with Sauer.[/quote]

So, oddly enough, they DID do a bunch of work with Ralph to make a custom instrument. I have played one of the prototypes (a forum member owns it) and it's an AMAZING horn. I'm not exactly sure why the project fell through in the end.
</QUOTE>

It feel through because Eastman also made him an amazing horn and put his name on it. That company is very good at attracting talent.

What would you rather have, a beautiful horn that meets all your specifications, has your name on it, has a nice custom case, and gives you a $50 (total guess) kickback every time someone buys one? Or a one off prototype that is amazing and probably won't become an artist model line because you don't have 90 solo CDs?

BGuttman · by **BGuttman** » 2021-05-23 6:34 p.m.

I don't know that Yamaha gives kickbacks. Walt Barrett used to say that even though he was a Yamaha Artist, he didn't get any special deals on instruments.

Probably the only benefit would be sponsorship to music events.

chromebone · by **chromebone** » 2021-05-23 7:48 p.m.

[quote="harrisonreed"]<QUOTE author="Burgerbob" post_id="149079" time="1621798144" user_id="3131">

So, oddly enough, they DID do a bunch of work with Ralph to make a custom instrument. I have played one of the prototypes (a forum member owns it) and it's an AMAZING horn. I'm not exactly sure why the project fell through in the end.[/quote]

It feel through because Eastman also made him an amazing horn and put his name on it. That company is very good at attracting talent </QUOTE>

Pretty sure the Sauer horn was developed before the Eastman purchase.

UMI/Conn Selmer has had an up and down relationship with developing artist horns; most famously, JJ Johnson called UMI in the mid 80’s to get a new horn when he was about to do his comeback; apparently no one at UMI seemed to know who he was or that he had been a King endorser/player for nearly 30 years and didn’t accommodate him. Yamaha was happy to oblige and give him whatever he wanted.

In the ensuing years, they have had Jiggs Wigham, Christian Lindberg, Massimo LaRosa and now Peter Steiner as endorsing artists with special models, so it’s obvious they are mindful of artist relations.

Conn-Selmer is in a different situation than Edwards or Shires: they are mostly legacy brands that players professional and non professional have certain associations and expectations. They really can’t change the 42 or the 88h that much before they are no longer representative of those designs. Aside from the specific Alessi and Sauer models and a couple of others, Shires is mostly offering their modular options, which is kind of the point of their business model, isn’t it? After all, what is the “Shires sound” or the “Edwards sound” anyway? Joe Alessi sounds pretty close on his Shires to how he sounded on his Edwards, )I assume he worked with them to make a horn that sounded pretty similar to his Edwards), but he sounds very different than when he was playing his Bach. Of course, much of that is probably attributable to his evolution as a player. There are so many variations and options with the modular brands, it might be a little harder to define a brand sound than with Bach or Conn.

sferg · by **sferg** » 2021-08-12 8:57 p.m.

elmsandr · by **elmsandr** » 2021-08-12 9:26 p.m.

Is the front bell brace on this in a different position? It looks closer than a 42B, but not as close as a 42.

Cheers,

Andy

Burgerbob · by **Burgerbob** » 2021-08-12 10:36 p.m.

[quote="elmsandr"]Is the front bell brace on this in a different position? It looks closer than a 42B, but not as close as a 42.

Cheers,

Andy[/quote]

Same as A47 spacing

u_20posaunen · by **u_20posaunen** » 2021-08-18 3:48 p.m.

[quote="StevenHolloway"]IMO Steiner made the wrong move switching to Bach just like Alessi made the wrong move switching to Shires. Maybe it was a better business deal, but it wasn’t a better deal for their sounds...[/quote]

https://tchaikovskycompetition.com/en/news/313.htm

Well, perhaps Peter noticed that Aleksey Lobikov plays a Bach? :shuffle:

I tend to agree that Peter's sound with Thein had a special and expressive quality that hasn't appeared yet in his recordings using Bach horns. But, as long as our top trombone representatives keep creating, sharing, and commissioning great music, I'm happy! On that note, I recommend everyone check out both Peter's and Aleksey's fantastic performances from the 2019 Tchaikovsky competition (videos are posted on youtube), if you haven't yet.

As for the Bach Artisan trombones, I'm excited to try some of their new options. Bach seems determined to produce their best trombones yet as a brand - lets all just hope it comes true!

Even so, Bach's top-shelf Artisan line pricing definitely makes it difficult to choose Bach when we can spend similar money to instead commission a master craftsman like Matthew at M&W to build a custom horn of similar specs that is assembled with unsurpassed precision, care, and expertise. I personally appreciate and try to support that kind of expertise, especially since the value of our profession as musicians is tied to this premise.

sferg · by **sferg** » 2021-09-09 7:50 p.m.

This is the A47X with the new F-attachment, differing from the Steiner model only in the bell. Fixed brass vs. LW gold brass with screw flare.

Elow · by **Elow** » 2022-01-14 4:58 p.m.

Got to try one of these at the fmea conference and was really disappointed. Sound wasn’t that great and response was a little dull, even worse on the screw bell model. Valve was kinda stuffy, not super stuffy but not that easy to get in and out of the valve register.

sstelmack · by **sstelmack** » 2022-01-14 7:00 p.m.

I tried the Steiner model the other day at Schmidt Music. Apparently they already have a buyer for it. The horn seemed great, but it wasn't for me. It was pretty heavy. Also I have big hands, but that horn has the smallest space for the left hand that I can remember ever trying. The linkage basically was resting on the back of my thumb. The horn did sound great. And it was really open feeling while playing. To open for me though.

I can see while people will like it. But I just ordered a custom Shires and it was cheaper than this ones msrp. For that price I would go Shires or Edwards any day if the week, but that's just my opinion.

dukesboneman · by **dukesboneman** » 2022-01-15 1:25 a.m.

I played thee Steiner models today at The FMEA Conference in Tampa.

1 Gold brass bell with screw Bell option

1 yellow brass bell -no screw bell option

These were 2 of the most vibrant horns I`ve ever played

The sound was nice & dark but it lit up when needed.

You could feel the horn vibrate in your hands while you played it.

Easy upper range.. The case looked like a Cronkite Travel bag, the 2 piece model, Leather and denim

This was one of the best .547 horns I`ve ever played. That`s just my opinion

Elow · by **Elow** » 2022-01-15 10:51 a.m.

If it makes any difference, wycliffe apparently had close to the same remarks about response. He actually preferred the intermediate that was on the far right, can’t remember the model number.

I fell in love with the shires chicago model that was on display. And changed my mind about the shires euphonium, i really enjoyed it. That new conn 88h is also amazing, great response and a lovely singing high range, sound was great but not really for me.

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