Bass Trombone Jazz/Symphonic
- trombinstharry
- Posts: 47
- Joined: Aug 24, 2018
Good evening fellow trombonists. I will be playing bass bone in my schools jazz band this year as well as my schools symphonic band. I was wondering what the goal of the bass bone is in both of these scenarios. In jazz, does the bass trombone want to rumble the ground playing, or should the bass be calm and collected? Should jazz bass be the same as symphonic bass?
- BGuttman
- Posts: 7368
- Joined: Mar 22, 2018
In your school's band there is proably only one bass trombone. The "bass trombone" part in orchestra or concert band is not a "rumble the floors part; it's a low voice in the triad part and needs to blend.
Jazz Band bass trombone has two roles (usually not simultaneously). One is the bass voice of the trombone choir (remember "blend"?) and one is as the partner with the baritone sax as the bottom of the band.
I just spent 2 weeks listening to Brass Bands and THERE the bass trombone was shaking the floorboards.
Jazz Band bass trombone has two roles (usually not simultaneously). One is the bass voice of the trombone choir (remember "blend"?) and one is as the partner with the baritone sax as the bottom of the band.
I just spent 2 weeks listening to Brass Bands and THERE the bass trombone was shaking the floorboards.
- hyperbolica
- Posts: 3990
- Joined: Mar 23, 2018
Jazz bass bone wants a bit of bark, but you need to be able to make a number of sounds. Its a separate instrument, but you've also got to play with the bari sax and the bass guitar. Sometimes you will play with each of those, and sometimes you'll be your own bass voice. And sometimes you'll just be another trombone, without being a bass voice at all. 90% of big band music I've played can be done with a large tenor, or single valve bass.
A symphonic bass bone has to play with the tuba and string basses as well as the trombones. Some times its color and tone, sometimes its bark and edge. A lot of symphonic bass bone can be played on a single valve as well.
I'd concentrate on getting a good trombone sound, filling the horn, practice phrasing, slurs, slide technique, intonation, time, all the basics. If someone wants you to "rumble the ground" they'll give you a tuba. Bass trombones are more for splitting cellists and clarinetists in half. :good:
A symphonic bass bone has to play with the tuba and string basses as well as the trombones. Some times its color and tone, sometimes its bark and edge. A lot of symphonic bass bone can be played on a single valve as well.
I'd concentrate on getting a good trombone sound, filling the horn, practice phrasing, slurs, slide technique, intonation, time, all the basics. If someone wants you to "rumble the ground" they'll give you a tuba. Bass trombones are more for splitting cellists and clarinetists in half. :good:
- norbie2018
- Posts: 1051
- Joined: Apr 05, 2018
"I was wondering what the goal of the bass bone is in both of these scenarios." Listening is a key way of determining this. Get ahold of plenty of recording in both genres and decide for yourself a concept of sound.
- TheBoneRanger
- Posts: 225
- Joined: Apr 04, 2018
[quote="norbie2018"]Listening is a key way of determining this.[/quote]
Agreed. We can use words all we like to describe sound, but there's no substitute for listening, both live and recordings.
Get yourself to as many live gigs as you can. Between that and youtube/Spotify, you'll have enough material to fill your ears with great examples.
Andrew
Agreed. We can use words all we like to describe sound, but there's no substitute for listening, both live and recordings.
Get yourself to as many live gigs as you can. Between that and youtube/Spotify, you'll have enough material to fill your ears with great examples.
Andrew
- Kbiggs
- Posts: 1768
- Joined: Mar 24, 2018
The bass trombonist’s role in all genres has developed over time, but especially in the lst 20 years or so. In brass bands, it is often a “rumble the floorboards” kind of playing, but is also required to be nimble and blend with the tenors and the tubas. Ditto but (perhaps) to a lesser extent in symphonic band.
The are many different roles to play in the orchestral world. Fortunately, these roles—the way to play the part, excerpts, etc.—are fairly clearly set out. Careful study of scores and recordings, as well as a good teacher familiar with the repertoire, and lots of patience and practice, are required.
Ever since Bart Varsalona, one of the first people to play the 4th trombone on a larger instrument, the bass trombonist’s role in the big band has been expanding. While a lot of the standard literature (if there is such a thing in the big band world!) can be played on a single valved bass, a two-valved bass is usually preferred, and sometimes necessary.
Doug Yeo had an excellent series of posts in the old TTF about the sound of the bass trombone. While it was in a thread about conical vs. cylindrical sounds (the tendency towards larger equipment), it’s apt here. I don’t know whether it was retrieved in the archives section...
The are many different roles to play in the orchestral world. Fortunately, these roles—the way to play the part, excerpts, etc.—are fairly clearly set out. Careful study of scores and recordings, as well as a good teacher familiar with the repertoire, and lots of patience and practice, are required.
Ever since Bart Varsalona, one of the first people to play the 4th trombone on a larger instrument, the bass trombonist’s role in the big band has been expanding. While a lot of the standard literature (if there is such a thing in the big band world!) can be played on a single valved bass, a two-valved bass is usually preferred, and sometimes necessary.
Doug Yeo had an excellent series of posts in the old TTF about the sound of the bass trombone. While it was in a thread about conical vs. cylindrical sounds (the tendency towards larger equipment), it’s apt here. I don’t know whether it was retrieved in the archives section...
- Chiptingle
- Posts: 87
- Joined: Apr 30, 2018
I hope you’ll follow up and become an avid listener.
Some favs include:
Dave Taylor
Bill Reichenbach
Jeff Reynolds
George Roberts
Alan Raph
Paul Falise
George Flynn
Earl McIntyre
Doug Purviance
Max Seigal
Jennifer Wharton
Jeff Nelson
Steve Trapani
James Burowski
And many more!
Enjoy the ride!
Some favs include:
Dave Taylor
Bill Reichenbach
Jeff Reynolds
George Roberts
Alan Raph
Paul Falise
George Flynn
Earl McIntyre
Doug Purviance
Max Seigal
Jennifer Wharton
Jeff Nelson
Steve Trapani
James Burowski
And many more!
Enjoy the ride!
- lowcatjb
- Posts: 15
- Joined: Aug 24, 2018
Hey, I can see that it's been a while since anyone posted on this thread but I just caught up with TromboneChat.
I have to agree with what's been said so far. Specific to jazz bass trombone, not only are there different roles, but also different approaches to the music. It's important to know what sound the composer is looking for, or at least what the band leader is looking for.
Do make sure that you're listening to different eras of bass trombone playing. There is some difference between what George Roberts might do on a Nelson Riddle arrangement (Like Sinatra's rendition of "Makin' Whoopie") and what Dave Taylor might do on a Bob Mintzer chart ("Computer," for example.)
I've found that almost all the time, bandleaders are looking for one of these two approaches, sometimes over all the tunes the band is playing, sometimes on a tune-to-tune basis. Although it is good to listen to as much as you can, so that you're prepared for anything.
The more you know...
PS - thanks Chiptingle for the shout-out!
I have to agree with what's been said so far. Specific to jazz bass trombone, not only are there different roles, but also different approaches to the music. It's important to know what sound the composer is looking for, or at least what the band leader is looking for.
Do make sure that you're listening to different eras of bass trombone playing. There is some difference between what George Roberts might do on a Nelson Riddle arrangement (Like Sinatra's rendition of "Makin' Whoopie") and what Dave Taylor might do on a Bob Mintzer chart ("Computer," for example.)
I've found that almost all the time, bandleaders are looking for one of these two approaches, sometimes over all the tunes the band is playing, sometimes on a tune-to-tune basis. Although it is good to listen to as much as you can, so that you're prepared for anything.
The more you know...
PS - thanks Chiptingle for the shout-out!
- ghmerrill
- Posts: 2193
- Joined: Apr 02, 2018
I find it difficult to "blend" with the tubas on my 7B clone. My guess is that it would be better on a Bach or such.
However, when we do most things in the band, I'm really happy with the sound I get from the horn. When we did "Pirates of the Caribbean" this past season, this horn was GREAT. It doubled the tubas a lot, but the goal there wasn't exactly to "blend". :shock:
However, with the lead pipe I have in it, I think I also have it as close to a symphonic horn as it's possible to get it. So I think it's a great compromise.
However, when we do most things in the band, I'm really happy with the sound I get from the horn. When we did "Pirates of the Caribbean" this past season, this horn was GREAT. It doubled the tubas a lot, but the goal there wasn't exactly to "blend". :shock:
However, with the lead pipe I have in it, I think I also have it as close to a symphonic horn as it's possible to get it. So I think it's a great compromise.
- sf105
- Posts: 433
- Joined: Mar 24, 2018
For big band, the biggest crime is sounding late. Sometimes it's more like a bass drum than something lyrical. For symphonic band, probably the biggest crime is standing out by rasping.
- lowcatjb
- Posts: 15
- Joined: Aug 24, 2018
[quote="sf105"]For big band, the biggest crime is sounding late.[/quote]
Good catch! Sometimes it's a matter of actually being late, and sometimes it's a problem of playing the notes longer than the lead player and sounding late.
Good catch! Sometimes it's a matter of actually being late, and sometimes it's a problem of playing the notes longer than the lead player and sounding late.
- hyperbolica
- Posts: 3990
- Joined: Mar 23, 2018
[quote="ghmerrill"]I find it difficult to "blend" with the tubas on my 7B clone. My guess is that it would be better on a Bach or such.
However, when we do most things in the band, I'm really happy with the sound I get from the horn. When we did "Pirates of the Caribbean" this past season, this horn was GREAT. It doubled the tubas a lot, but the goal there wasn't exactly to "blend". :shock:
However, with the lead pipe I have in it, I think I also have it as close to a symphonic horn as it's possible to get it. So I think it's a great compromise.[/quote]
I'd never suggest that you have to blend with the tubas. In fact, it's the difference in sound between the tuba and bass bone that combines to best effect. The bass bone has the bark, and the tuba has the presence. In general, I don't promote "blending" because very often, it's the difference that is most interesting. My tbone quartet has 4 players with very different sounds, just like in a vocal quartet, you have distinguishable voices. Some people are seduced by the concept of music being almost robotically perfect. Robotic perfection would start to lose the most interesting idiosyncrasies. I think tuba and bass bone come together in a way like the old-fashioned continuo, referred to as a single instrument, when it's really made up of more than one. Like a rhythm section, but for the bass voice.
However, when we do most things in the band, I'm really happy with the sound I get from the horn. When we did "Pirates of the Caribbean" this past season, this horn was GREAT. It doubled the tubas a lot, but the goal there wasn't exactly to "blend". :shock:
However, with the lead pipe I have in it, I think I also have it as close to a symphonic horn as it's possible to get it. So I think it's a great compromise.[/quote]
I'd never suggest that you have to blend with the tubas. In fact, it's the difference in sound between the tuba and bass bone that combines to best effect. The bass bone has the bark, and the tuba has the presence. In general, I don't promote "blending" because very often, it's the difference that is most interesting. My tbone quartet has 4 players with very different sounds, just like in a vocal quartet, you have distinguishable voices. Some people are seduced by the concept of music being almost robotically perfect. Robotic perfection would start to lose the most interesting idiosyncrasies. I think tuba and bass bone come together in a way like the old-fashioned continuo, referred to as a single instrument, when it's really made up of more than one. Like a rhythm section, but for the bass voice.
- ghmerrill
- Posts: 2193
- Joined: Apr 02, 2018
Yeah. But if the bass bone produces a too "raucous" sound -- particularly in passages with low dynamics in the octave below the staff -- the musical effect resulting is not pleasant or what's desired. With "commercial" horns, it can be challenging to produce a sound in that range with the tubas that sounds better with the bass bone than without it. But maybe that's just a comment on my skills.
- Savio
- Posts: 688
- Joined: Apr 26, 2018
Not easy to say much about this since both jazz and symphonic music have a lot of different sub genres. The OP plays in a symphonic band which have a lot of different repertoire. I'm not so much into either symphonic or jazz, but when I am I just try to fit in with the music and the musicians around. Be in time, good intonation and try to understand what is going on. Not easy but very fun to try. I think our own understanding and taste have to guide us. Listening a lot of music and musicians will give us ideas to develop our own sound. Boring if we all sounds the same, isn't it?
Leif
Leif
- hyperbolica
- Posts: 3990
- Joined: Mar 23, 2018
[quote="ghmerrill"]Yeah. But if the bass bone produces a too "raucous" sound -- particularly in passages with low dynamics in the octave below the staff -- the musical effect resulting is not pleasant or what's desired. With "commercial" horns, it can be challenging to produce a sound in that range with the tubas that sounds better with the bass bone than without it. But maybe that's just a comment on my skills.[/quote]
Yeah, I struggle specifically with what you are talking about - the balance between edgy sound vs round sound. To me, it's easier to take an edgy trombone and round out the sound by holding back, or using a bigger mouthpiece, than it is to use a horn that by default plays roundish and put any brilliance or edge back into that sound. I guess I've got a bass sound in my head that I'm having difficulty finding with the hardware I've used.
Yeah, I struggle specifically with what you are talking about - the balance between edgy sound vs round sound. To me, it's easier to take an edgy trombone and round out the sound by holding back, or using a bigger mouthpiece, than it is to use a horn that by default plays roundish and put any brilliance or edge back into that sound. I guess I've got a bass sound in my head that I'm having difficulty finding with the hardware I've used.
- ghmerrill
- Posts: 2193
- Joined: Apr 02, 2018
I think you're right, and I've had the same feeling and experience. It's just that it takes some actual effort and focus to get the round sound at low dynamics on my horn in the double valve and pedal range. Still, I think I prefer it overall. For example, it blends quite acceptably with the tenors when I have to play 2nd parts (which given band arrangements nowadays, is disturbingly often).
- BrassedOn
- Posts: 122
- Joined: Aug 23, 2018
A lot of great comments, which shows what a good question this is.
And I liked that you are wondering about the role or concept you should have, not the gear.
Concept can start with thinking about who are you playing with. Like the big band example and needing to "partner" with the bari sax or section with the tenor trombones. In both cases, the bass trombone is still a unique voice. In orchestra, you might be adding a bit of shimmer on top of the tuba, like "icing on cake", on some long tone or line. My first work was doing church masses, where the bass bone supported the bass vocal lines, so I wasn't too brassy. In a symphonic band rehearsal just last night, I had a bass line part with the bassoons, and I really was focused on "getting inside" the bassoon sound. Like I feel when I play in orchestra on bass bone or tenor tuba, sometimes creating a new color with the bassoon or contrabass tuba, not by emulating them, but by combining our sounds.
Have you ever played any Gustav Holst concert band pieces or Percy Grainger, Vaughn Williams? It seems there is always some really exposed part where the composer stacks three woodwinds (Eb Clar, picc and bassoon) or maybe tosses in a muted trumpet to basically construct a new woodwind voice. (Kind of how an organ pulls out combinations of stops to change the tone.)
Every once in a while you get a feature, like an independent line in orchestra or a George Roberts line in big band. Mostly, I want to make those notes sound like they are just easily popping out of my bell with nicely articulated round, wet notes. Unique to the bass trombone. And distinct from how they might sound coming out of a tenor.
At some point gear can make it harder. Years ago in HS all I had to play for bass bone was a heavy slide heavy bell Bach 50. For a young player, that was a lot of brass to move in a big band. I would have been better off on a King 4B or 5B or Conn 88. Easier to relax and make the lighter horn speak. As others noted, it is important to not be late. And make it sound easy, even when you are pouring on the gas.
And I liked that you are wondering about the role or concept you should have, not the gear.
Concept can start with thinking about who are you playing with. Like the big band example and needing to "partner" with the bari sax or section with the tenor trombones. In both cases, the bass trombone is still a unique voice. In orchestra, you might be adding a bit of shimmer on top of the tuba, like "icing on cake", on some long tone or line. My first work was doing church masses, where the bass bone supported the bass vocal lines, so I wasn't too brassy. In a symphonic band rehearsal just last night, I had a bass line part with the bassoons, and I really was focused on "getting inside" the bassoon sound. Like I feel when I play in orchestra on bass bone or tenor tuba, sometimes creating a new color with the bassoon or contrabass tuba, not by emulating them, but by combining our sounds.
Have you ever played any Gustav Holst concert band pieces or Percy Grainger, Vaughn Williams? It seems there is always some really exposed part where the composer stacks three woodwinds (Eb Clar, picc and bassoon) or maybe tosses in a muted trumpet to basically construct a new woodwind voice. (Kind of how an organ pulls out combinations of stops to change the tone.)
Every once in a while you get a feature, like an independent line in orchestra or a George Roberts line in big band. Mostly, I want to make those notes sound like they are just easily popping out of my bell with nicely articulated round, wet notes. Unique to the bass trombone. And distinct from how they might sound coming out of a tenor.
At some point gear can make it harder. Years ago in HS all I had to play for bass bone was a heavy slide heavy bell Bach 50. For a young player, that was a lot of brass to move in a big band. I would have been better off on a King 4B or 5B or Conn 88. Easier to relax and make the lighter horn speak. As others noted, it is important to not be late. And make it sound easy, even when you are pouring on the gas.
- BflatBass
- Posts: 173
- Joined: Mar 23, 2018
I've never been by any stretch an outstanding bass trombonist but I just had to add my two bits to this thread.
I've also never had any experience playing bass none in a concert band or orchestra but I did play in a community college "day" jazz big band for two years and in the "night" big band for one semester. The night band was full of heavy hitters that had tons of experience and just wanted a chance to play in a big band with other great musicians. I was underqualified but felt honored to be able to play with some great talent.
When the trombone section had a part that just complimented the other sections either as a whole band or just maybe a countermelody or back up to a melody played by another section, the bass trombone was part of the trombone section as a whole and needed to blend. When the trombone section had a part that was the melody or was featured, the bass trombone often times needed to provide an "edge" to the section. This is when you needed a little more "bark" in your sound and "shaking the floorboards" was OK! Also when you had a part with the bari sax that WAS the bottom of the band (and the bass guitar was doing their own thing with the rhythm section), you could bark it out then too because the "bottom" is the support for the band and that sound needs to be defined just like the lead.
When the trombone section has a feature (even if its only a few measures) and the bass bone's part is different and compliments the rest of the section, that's when the fun really begins!! Let em know how important your part really is and bark it out with style :D
I've also never had any experience playing bass none in a concert band or orchestra but I did play in a community college "day" jazz big band for two years and in the "night" big band for one semester. The night band was full of heavy hitters that had tons of experience and just wanted a chance to play in a big band with other great musicians. I was underqualified but felt honored to be able to play with some great talent.
When the trombone section had a part that just complimented the other sections either as a whole band or just maybe a countermelody or back up to a melody played by another section, the bass trombone was part of the trombone section as a whole and needed to blend. When the trombone section had a part that was the melody or was featured, the bass trombone often times needed to provide an "edge" to the section. This is when you needed a little more "bark" in your sound and "shaking the floorboards" was OK! Also when you had a part with the bari sax that WAS the bottom of the band (and the bass guitar was doing their own thing with the rhythm section), you could bark it out then too because the "bottom" is the support for the band and that sound needs to be defined just like the lead.
When the trombone section has a feature (even if its only a few measures) and the bass bone's part is different and compliments the rest of the section, that's when the fun really begins!! Let em know how important your part really is and bark it out with style :D
- GBP
- Posts: 270
- Joined: Jun 05, 2018
[quote="ghmerrill"]I find it difficult to "blend" with the tubas on my 7B clone. My guess is that it would be better on a Bach or such.
However, when we do most things in the band, I'm really happy with the sound I get from the horn. When we did "Pirates of the Caribbean" this past season, this horn was GREAT. It doubled the tubas a lot, but the goal there wasn't exactly to "blend". :shock:
However, with the lead pipe I have in it, I think I also have it as close to a symphonic horn as it's possible to get it. So I think it's a great compromise.[/quote]
Sometimes the issue is one of being in tune with the other bass instruments.
However, when we do most things in the band, I'm really happy with the sound I get from the horn. When we did "Pirates of the Caribbean" this past season, this horn was GREAT. It doubled the tubas a lot, but the goal there wasn't exactly to "blend". :shock:
However, with the lead pipe I have in it, I think I also have it as close to a symphonic horn as it's possible to get it. So I think it's a great compromise.[/quote]
Sometimes the issue is one of being in tune with the other bass instruments.