mouthpiece buzzing...opinions

PosauneCat · 2021-04-26 6:08 p.m.

Let me start this by saying...DOUG ELLIOTT, you can't answer this (yet at least)! You and I have talked about this at length and I don't want your opinion to skew the results of my little poll. :D

Those of you who do a lot of mouthpiece buzzing:

Do you think your mouthpiece placement and musculature is EXACTLY the same as when you are blowing through the horn?

Mike Coyle

harrisonreed · by **harrisonreed** » 2021-04-26 6:22 p.m.

I don't buzz. But that is because I know it's not even close to the same. "When you practice buzzing on the mouthpiece, you practice a horrible sound" and all that.

Just my own conclusion to a very complex topic

harrisonreed · by **harrisonreed** » 2021-04-26 6:58 p.m.

James Markey gets at it from a different angle. He seems like he is likely an avid buzzer, but his points support my reasons for not doing it. I think this is worth watching!

<YOUTUBE id="B1OX7-_80eI">~~[media]~~https://youtu.be/B1OX7-_80eI</YOUTUBE>

I will point out that he keeps saying he's "buzzing" each pitch he plays on the horn, but I don't think that's what happens. When he plays an E in first, yeah, he's buzzing into the horn as a megaphone (amplifier). But the other notes he says "you need to buzz the correct pitch". I don't think that's what is happening -- he himself says at the beginning of the video that air and embouchure are two sides of the same coin. He isn't staying consistent with his own advice. He isn't "buzzing" those partials into the horn, but he is making the whole system, including his lips, RESONATE up and down those partials. Take away the horn and the "buzz" would immediately stop.

So he says "oh, this doesn't mean the buzz isn't important" but yeah, it really does. He is still trying to separate that buzz out (dang teachers) but per his own teaching that is like cutting the coin in half, and then trying to glue it back together...

GabrielRice · by **GabrielRice** » 2021-04-26 9:59 p.m.

I do some mouthpiece playing every day.

It's not the same as playing the instrument.

I don't like what happens when I don't do it.

Kdanielsen · by **Kdanielsen** » 2021-04-26 10:25 p.m.

I don’t buzz much anymore, and I think I’m better off.

I used to buzz a lot, however, and I can state confidently that buzzing on your mouthpiece is very different from playing the complete horn. I think it’s possible to develop an approach that makes the two things feel similar, but I’m not sure there is a benefit to that (and there might be a detriment).

Burgerbob · by **Burgerbob** » 2021-04-26 10:40 p.m.

I mostly freebuzz these days. But when that's working, the mouthpiece buzz feels good too. I try to do 50/50 when I'm checking in on things.

paulyg · by **paulyg** » 2021-04-27 12:30 a.m.

It's a good way to practice "command the body to make the sound." I think it helps some people (myself included) to close the loop, in a sense. I probably don't do enough of it, but I went through a phase where I did wayyyy too much and have no desire to repeat that.

CalgaryTbone · by **CalgaryTbone** » 2021-04-27 12:41 a.m.

I buzz a bit - probably 5 - 10 minutes a day. I find that using a BERP or a leadpipe works the best for me. I like to have a bit more resistance - closer to playing the horn. Also, I find it to be more beneficial if I check my pitch often (either on the horn or a keyboard) and try to make sure that I avoid buzzing in between pitches. I like the positive impact it has on my sound and ease of playing. I also find that adding more buzzing to my routine isn't necessarily better for me. That 5 - 10 minutes seems just right.

Jim Scott

PosauneCat · 2021-04-27 1:11 a.m.

This has been interesting to read. To me buzzing the mpc is remarkably different from playing. As I am trying to get back into playing after centuries off, I’ve found mpc buzzing unhelpful, it is so different from the way my embouchure works in the horn it actually hinders my development. As a kid I never really did it at all. There wasn’t a ton of talk about mp buzzing back then.

Doug, if you read this feel free to contribute. I wasn’t trying to censor you. Yours is a very respected voice here and I didn’t want that to influence anyone’s response. I know you and I have talked about this a few times and I believe our thinking about it is pretty similar.

Mike

PosauneCat · 2021-04-27 1:17 a.m.

Markey seems to be playing it safe by staying in the middle of the road. Yet, it’s kind of implicit in what he says that mpc buzzing and playing are vastly different.

[quote="harrisonreed"]James Markey gets at it from a different angle. He seems like he is likely an avid buzzer, but his points support my reasons for not doing it. I think this is worth watching!

<YOUTUBE id="B1OX7-_80eI">~~[media]~~https://youtu.be/B1OX7-_80eI</YOUTUBE>

I will point out that he keeps saying he's "buzzing" each pitch he plays on the horn, but I don't think that's what happens. When he plays an E in first, yeah, he's buzzing into the horn as a megaphone (amplifier). But the other notes he says "you need to buzz the correct pitch". I don't think that's what is happening -- he himself says at the beginning of the video that air and embouchure are two sides of the same coin. He isn't staying consistent with his own advice. He isn't "buzzing" those partials into the horn, but he is making the whole system, including his lips, RESONATE up and down those partials. Take away the horn and the "buzz" would immediately stop.

So he says "oh, this doesn't mean the buzz isn't important" but yeah, it really does. He is still trying to separate that buzz out (dang teachers) but per his own teaching that is like cutting the coin in half, and then trying to glue it back together...[/quote]

Tbarh · by **Tbarh** » 2021-04-27 2:40 a.m.

Saying that You shouldnt buzz because its not playing is like telling Usain Bolt that he shouldnt do Squats because its not running...

Doug_Elliott · by **Doug_Elliott** » 2021-04-27 3:02 a.m.

This might not make sense to everybody, but have you ever tried running on a sloped surface, where one foot is constantly higher than the other? Or on a curb, with your right foot hitting the curb and your left foot in the gutter?

It's running...

Tbarh · by **Tbarh** » 2021-04-27 3:20 a.m.

Look,... on vacations without the horn i have tried to play mouthpiece only.. Doesnt help much... Might as well have a real vacation... Mouthpieceplaying is a practicesupplement.Not a replacement for ordinary practicing.. It doesnt replace playing.... But in combination it works for me.... Big time!

harrisonreed · by **harrisonreed** » 2021-04-27 3:43 a.m.

[quote="Tbarh"]Saying that You shouldnt buzz because its not playing is like telling Usain Bolt that he shouldnt do Squats because its not running...[/quote]

Again, I disagree. Trombone playing is not like sprinting or any athletic activity. It's a fine motor skill, muscles that easily over stressed and blown out from over work, which is what buzzing is. Don't take it from me. Ask Phil Smith about what he thinks buzzing did to his career. Watch at around 4:00.

<YOUTUBE id="Ct2uGgySOGI">~~[media]~~https://youtu.be/Ct2uGgySOGI</YOUTUBE>

The idea that the face is some muscle your train up like your glutes and quads is not a good one.

Saying that you shouldn't buzz because it is not playing is like telling Magnus Carlsen not to do finger pushups because it is not playing chess....

Saying that you shouldn't buzz because it is not playing is like telling Paganini not to do bicep curls because it is not playing the violin...

It's like holding weights with your lips because you think that will strengthen your face and get you playing better. They are tiny, fine motor muscles. No benefit.

harrisonreed · by **harrisonreed** » 2021-04-27 3:51 a.m.

[quote="Doug Elliott"]This might not make sense to everybody, but have you ever tried running on a sloped surface, where one foot is constantly higher than the other? Or on a curb, with your right foot hitting the curb and your left foot in the gutter?

It's running...[/quote]

Now that is a good comparison. Markey playing the E in first is like he's running with one foot in the gutter. There is a good reason to not do it. Who trains on purpose, running with one foot in the gutter? I'm imagining myself watching that scene, someone exerting a lot of effort running with a foot in the gutter, seriously thinking they are training hard. I'd go "that isn't running ..."

I still like his own coin reference. How are you going to cut the coin in half alongg the edge, really polish up only one half of it, and then expect to put the coin back together and use it?

FOSSIL · by **FOSSIL** » 2021-04-27 4:49 a.m.

I freebuzz the same as I play...I can buzz a note and put the instrument on my face and a normal note comes out and I can play a note and remove the instrument and go to a buzz without a break. It is what it is....I'm not going to argue about it...I really don't care. I don't know why some people get so upset about this.

Chris

Tbarh · by **Tbarh** » 2021-04-27 4:58 a.m.

[quote="harrisonreed"]<QUOTE author="Doug Elliott" post_id="147250" time="1619506974" user_id="51">
This might not make sense to everybody, but have you ever tried running on a sloped surface, where one foot is constantly higher than the other? Or on a curb, with your right foot hitting the curb and your left foot in the gutter?

It's running...[/quote]

Now that is a good comparison. Markey playing the E in first is like he's running with one foot in the gutter. There is a good reason to not do it. Who trains on purpose, running with one foot in the gutter? I'm imagining myself watching that scene, someone exerting a lot of effort running with a foot in the gutter, seriously thinking they are training hard. I'd go "that isn't running ..."

I still like his own coin reference. How are you going to cut the coin in half alongg the edge, really polish up only one half of it, and then expect to put the coin back together and use it?
</QUOTE>

In my next post i say : It works for me... Big time!

Dont You beleive it? <EMOJI seq="1f609" tseq="1f609">😉</EMOJI>

Tbarh · by **Tbarh** » 2021-04-27 5:14 a.m.

[quote="FOSSIL"]I freebuzz the same as I play...I can buzz a note and put the instrument on my face and a normal note comes out and I can play a note and remove the instrument and go to a buzz without a break. It is what it is....I'm not going to argue about it...I really don't care. I don't know why some people get so upset about this.

Chris[/quote]
Well, If You have students You at least should take a stand on whether You should teach it or NOT.. <EMOJI seq="1f609" tseq="1f609">😉</EMOJI>

Doug_Elliott · by **Doug_Elliott** » 2021-04-27 5:47 a.m.

Freebuzzing is extremely useful when done a particular way - I do it and teach it.

Tbarh · by **Tbarh** » 2021-04-27 5:53 a.m.

[quote="Doug Elliott"]Freebuzzing is extremely useful when done a particular way - I do it and teach it.[/quote]
Yes, me too. And the caveat that it should be done a certain way is an important one...

harrisonreed · by **harrisonreed** » 2021-04-27 6:58 a.m.

[quote="Tbarh"]

In my next post i say : It works for me... Big time!

Dont You beleive it? <EMOJI seq="1f609" tseq="1f609">😉</EMOJI>[/quote]

No, actually. Prove it. I want to see it.

And yeah, I'm not upset, as Chris Stearn might imply. But the video evidence from players vastly superior to me saying that buzzing is worthless (even when they end their video saying it's not worthless...) is more compelling than statements that say "no it works, trust me".

I haven't seen a video of someone freebuzzing "the right way", and I haven't seen a video of anyone doing any buzzing that transfers to the horn seamlessly.

Even Sam Burris made a video where he goes from free buzz to rim to mouthpiece to horn, and his corners change for each one.

Kdanielsen · by **Kdanielsen** » 2021-04-27 7:04 a.m.

[quote="Tbarh"]Saying that You shouldnt buzz because its not playing is like telling Usain Bolt that he shouldnt do Squats because its not running...[/quote]

Yes!

The main thing I found it useful for was developing some strength.

When I was younger it was good to develop habits with air, and good for my ear.

Fidbone · by **Fidbone** » 2021-04-27 7:29 a.m.

Make of it what you will :cool: ~~[url]~~https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=kiZ8qyVg4ao

Tbarh · by **Tbarh** » 2021-04-27 8:15 a.m.

[quote="harrisonreed"]<QUOTE author="Tbarh" post_id="147257" time="1619513903" user_id="3637">

In my next post i say : It works for me... Big time!

Dont You beleive it? <EMOJI seq="1f609" tseq="1f609">😉</EMOJI>[/quote]

No, actually. Prove it. I want to see it.

And yeah, I'm not upset, as Chris Stearn might imply. But the video evidence from players vastly superior to me saying that buzzing is worthless (even when they end their video saying it's not worthless...) is more compelling than statements that say "no it works, trust me".

I haven't seen a video of someone freebuzzing "the right way", and I haven't seen a video of anyone doing any buzzing that transfers to the horn seamlessly.

Even Sam Burris made a video where he goes from free buzz to rim to mouthpiece to horn, and his corners change for each one.
</QUOTE>
My first reply was a bit off the op's original question... He asked If there was a difference between how You blow the mouthpiece alone, and the way You blow Your horn.I really didnt reply to that question. My reply to that is: Yes, there is a difference... My subsequent point is : so what, If it improve Your playing?..

Kdanielsen · by **Kdanielsen** » 2021-04-27 8:27 a.m.

[quote="harrisonreed"]

The idea that the face is some muscle your train up like your glutes and quads is not a good one.

Saying that you shouldn't buzz because it is not playing is like telling Magnus Carlsen not to do finger pushups because it is not playing chess....

Saying that you shouldn't buzz because it is not playing is like telling Paganini not to do bicep curls because it is not playing the violin...

It's like holding weights with your lips because you think that will strengthen your face and get you playing better. They are tiny, fine motor muscles. No benefit.[/quote]

I’m not claiming that we should train our embouchure muscles like they are biceps. I think we need to develop them using our trombones and sometimes our mouthpieces.

Look at the face/embouchure of most rockstar level trombonists. The muscles of their embouchures are clearly developed way past the point of a novice player. Even Lindberg has “brass player’s face.” As I’ve progressed my embouchure muscles have grown and become more defined.

The point isn’t to develop the muscles, it’s to be better at operating the trombone. Athletes go to the gym despite the fact that they will never have to do a push-up on the field.

The mouthpiece is a useful tool for this. I’m not here for a million back and forth arguments, this is just my opinion after lots of practice and study. Take it or leave it.

Basbasun · by **Basbasun** » 2021-04-27 9:07 a.m.

[quote="PosauneCat"]Those of you who do a lot of mouthpiece buzzing:

Do you think your mouthpiece placement and musculature is EXACTLY the same as when you are blowing through the horn?

Mike Coyle[/quote]

I don´t do a LOT of mpc buzzing, but I do know that my musculature i not exactly the same when blowing the horn. As some one said "if I play an F as beautiful I can" and take the horn away from the mpc/mouth there will not be any sound. If I don´t blow a little harder, or flex my chops a little. If iI play the F and take away the horn/mpc from my chops still blowing, there is only air no tone, if I am still blowing and put the horn/mpc back on my chops the F is back. If I put a mute in the bell my chops wont be exactly the same for the F. I wonder if the chops are the same for F in the first pos. as on the sixth? Actually you do modifie your airflow all the time when you play.

Another question, is mpc buzzing good? Are all of those that clame their benifit from it lieing or don´t they know what they are talking about? How do you know it is good? How do you know it´s not good? Some players have been buzzing for years, maybe 50 years, if the say it has been good for me, you must have some guts to tell them they are wrong. "It is not good!" How do you know that?

Are there a different ways to buzz?

Yes there is!

I used to do buzzing in a to much flexed way, to blow the clamped lips apart with kind of violent air. That was not good for my chops. Now I buzz with more air flow than I use when I play, both when free buzzing and buzzing in the mouthpiece.

I did have a discoussion with good player about buzzing for about 40 years ago. To buzz the way we did then did result in a bad sound. But that is not the only way to buzz. You can buzz another way. Focusing on the airflow.

Basbasun · by **Basbasun** » 2021-04-27 9:28 a.m.

On the other hand. If I play that F, and focus on the sound of that F while pulling the horn of the mpc/chops the F will still be there! Is the chops exactly the same? Well, I know they can´t be. But If didn´t know that I would say I think they are. If I play that F in just the mpc and going (focus on the sound and airflow ) into the horn the F will sound beautiful! (yes it will). Actually, the chops will automaticly modify, you may not know, and that is not important. I am loocing forward to a reply.

FOSSIL · by **FOSSIL** » 2021-04-27 10:22 a.m.

[quote="harrisonreed"]<QUOTE author="Tbarh" post_id="147257" time="1619513903" user_id="3637">

In my next post i say : It works for me... Big time!

Dont You beleive it? <EMOJI seq="1f609" tseq="1f609">😉</EMOJI>[/quote]

No, actually. Prove it. I want to see it.

And yeah, I'm not upset, as Chris Stearn might imply. But the video evidence from players vastly superior to me saying that buzzing is worthless (even when they end their video saying it's not worthless...) is more compelling than statements that say "no it works, trust me".

I haven't seen a video of someone freebuzzing "the right way", and I haven't seen a video of anyone doing any buzzing that transfers to the horn seamlessly.

Even Sam Burris made a video where he goes from free buzz to rim to mouthpiece to horn, and his corners change for each one.
</QUOTE>

Well, I have demonstrated it to Phil Smith in front of around 100 kids but I'm not about to spend time doing a video of it. I'm too busy redecorating the bathroom and as I said, why so much fuss ?

Chris

harrisonreed · by **harrisonreed** » 2021-04-27 11:33 a.m.

I never put much thought into making a bathroom look nice, but I do recall the public toilet in the main airport in Ireland -- one wall was just an angled wall of cement you relieved yourself onto. No dividers. No flowing water. The sinks were just ring troughs a few feet away. I remember clearly thinking "was this built by the Harkonnens?" So perhaps there is a line somewhere.

I suppose the bathroom would be a good spot to hang the ubiquitous painting of the crying boy that caused houses across the UK to burn down in the 70s. You could stare up at him, and he could judge you from on high.

I prefer a bleak room, for a bleak business. Maybe a spare mouthpiece for buzzing on the pot. The Japanese do it right -- sterile, watertight, with a drain in the floor. No matter how bad it gets, you can hose the entire room down, with you in it, and then hop in the tub.

What decorations are in vogue in the UK for bathrooms? Mine currently only has a toilet brush shaped like a black cat.

The flip side to the Harkonnen latrine was a bathroom in the restaurant called "On The Border" which was highly decorated with sombreros and had very aggressive and loud mariachi music playing. I think we had three dudes all suffering the same gastric symptoms in each stall, and I for one was holding back stifled laughs, tears, and gasps for air (read into that one) at the hilarity of it all. those poor mariachis didn't know what they were being paid to play for. Those poor mariachis

But the laugh was on me. I was the one crying in a stall, wondering how my lunch had already left me when half of it was still on my plate back at the table, between two like minded fellows, my hand over my face in shame interjected by shudders of suppressed laughter, all as the mariachis played their tune. They did get paid after all. At least, I assume they did.

FOSSIL · by **FOSSIL** » 2021-04-27 11:58 a.m.

Ooooohhhhh..... too long in Japan....the defecation obsession has taken over <EMOJI seq="1f602" tseq="1f602">😂</EMOJI><EMOJI seq="1f602" tseq="1f602">😂</EMOJI><EMOJI seq="1f602" tseq="1f602">😂</EMOJI>

Was that the Republic of Ireland ?? If it was, and it was Dublin, you may technically have still been on American soil, if you know what I mean.

Chris

PosauneCat · by **PosauneCat** » 2021-04-27 12:40 p.m.

A great analogy, Doug.

[quote="Doug Elliott"]This might not make sense to everybody, but have you ever tried running on a sloped surface, where one foot is constantly higher than the other? Or on a curb, with your right foot hitting the curb and your left foot in the gutter?

It's running...[/quote]

PosauneCat · by **PosauneCat** » 2021-04-27 12:58 p.m.

This discussion has confirmed much of what I already believe. I don’t see the three discrete elements that manifest a fully functional embouchure being your face, the mouthpiece, and the horn. The mouthpiece is part of the horn, albeit interchangeable. So that reduces the equation to: face + horn = practical embouchure.

I would never go so far as to say mpc buzzing is useless for everyone. These days I think if you find something that helps you and doesn’t create any secondary or consequential problems, do it!

I’ve tried complicated and simple. Simple is better.

MPC (these are my initials by the way, not an abbreviation of mouthpiece). :-)

PosauneCat · by **PosauneCat** » 2021-04-27 1:13 p.m.

I used to think free buzzing was just a parlor trick! Something trumpet players did just to impress you. However, Doug has shown me the real value of it and it is really helping me to understand the mechanics of my face! It does not come naturally to me and I have to practice it daily to improve it. But, I clearly see it’s relationship to actual playing and find particularly useful in showing me how the embouchure muscles work (i.e. what muscles need more tension, which need more relaxation. It’s a balancing act). For me learning to do it right has been a slow and often frustrating experience, but I can feel the value of it.

[quote="Doug Elliott"]Freebuzzing is extremely useful when done a particular way - I do it and teach it.[/quote]

harrisonreed · by **harrisonreed** » 2021-04-27 2:43 p.m.

[quote="FOSSIL"]Ooooohhhhh..... too long in Japan....the defecation obsession has taken over <EMOJI seq="1f602" tseq="1f602">😂</EMOJI><EMOJI seq="1f602" tseq="1f602">😂</EMOJI><EMOJI seq="1f602" tseq="1f602">😂</EMOJI>

Was that the Republic of Ireland ?? If it was, and it was Dublin, you may technically have still been on American soil, if you know what I mean.

Chris[/quote]

I think it was Dublin, yeah!

FOSSIL · by **FOSSIL** » 2021-04-27 5:08 p.m.

Ha Ha !!! Dublin airport.... it's BIG. That bit must have been under construction....Only in France do you see an otherwise civilised nation give up on the challenge of public toilets, especially in airports.

Chris

Tbone00 · by **Tbone00** » 2021-04-27 7:58 p.m.

Massimo La Rosa is another big fan of mouthpiece buzzing and it seems that for him it has worked at least.

<FACEBOOK id="10205521764097651" type="v" user="massimo.larosa.35"><LINK_TEXT text="https://www.facebook.com/massimo.larosa ... 764097651/">https://www.facebook.com/massimo.larosa.35/videos/10205521764097651/</LINK_TEXT></FACEBOOK>

harrisonreed · by **harrisonreed** » 2021-04-27 8:09 p.m.

[quote="Tbone00"]Massimo La Rosa is another big fan of mouthpiece buzzing and it seems that for him it has worked at least.

<FACEBOOK id="10205521764097651" type="v" user="massimo.larosa.35"><LINK_TEXT text="https://www.facebook.com/massimo.larosa ... 764097651/">https://www.facebook.com/massimo.larosa.35/videos/10205521764097651/</LINK_TEXT></FACEBOOK>[/quote]

:shuffle:

LeTromboniste · by **LeTromboniste** » 2021-04-27 8:15 p.m.

[quote="FOSSIL"]Ha Ha !!! Dublin airport.... it's BIG. That bit must have been under construction....Only in France do you see an otherwise civilised nation give up on the challenge of public toilets, especially in airports.

Chris[/quote]

Don't forget about Italy...

[quote="harrisonreed"]

And yeah, I'm not upset, as Chris Stearn might imply. But the video evidence from players vastly superior to me saying that buzzing is worthless (even when they end their video saying it's not worthless...) is more compelling than statements that say "no it works, trust me".
[/quote]

Yeah but there's also a number of players vastly superior to you or me who swear by mouthpiece buzzing so... :idk:

Years ago, Jorgen van Rijen led my then-flatmate to do a mouthpiece buzzing exercise in a masterclass. With 5 or 10 minutes of the exercise there was a massive improvement in the consistency of his tone that everyone in the hall could hear. It was like the doors had been blasted wide open to a facet of his playing.

Admittedly I don't use much mouthpiece buzzing, and no free buzzing at all (free buzzing has never worked for me). I used to mouthpiece buzz quite a lot every day but not with a clear purpose, and realised it wasn't really helping, and if anything it was impeding things. Now I use it sparingly as a specific tool for very specific purposes, rather occasionally, and it's really helping in that specific role.

Doug_Elliott · by **Doug_Elliott** » 2021-04-27 9:00 p.m.

How many times have I heard "free buzzing has never worked for me"

I hear that from virtually every person who has a lesson from me, and yet by the end of the lesson they are freebuzzing, usually pretty well.

BGuttman · by **BGuttman** » 2021-04-27 9:33 p.m.

I've found that when I'm out of practice both mouthpiece buzzing and free buzzing don't work. In that case I'm depending on the resistance of the instrument to help keep the buzz working. I can get the mouthpiece buzz working by putting a finger partly over the end of the mouthpiece (increases back pressure). When I practice it seems the free buzz and the mouthpiece buzz work much better. I still can't buzz wide ranges or intricate songs, but I'm not trying to earn my living doing this.

PosauneCat · by **PosauneCat** » 2021-04-27 9:45 p.m.

I certainly can't say I am doing it well yet, but it is getting better. In particular it has shown me the function of those muscles at the base of the corners of the mouth as well as the position of the lips in relation to one another. The fact that it's taking me so long to be able to do it well probably indicates I have some significant, perhaps insurmountable, embouchure problems. Given that I stopped playing about 30 years ago and am about to turn 62 in a week, I'm not sure I'll ever be able to play again. But, at least I'm learning a lot.

Message to you younger guys: NEVER STOP PLAYING, even if your interests take you in a different direction, like me. I guarantee you WILL want to try to play again when you get older and lemme tell ya...IT SUX. It's a lot easier to maintain it than to try to get it back!

[quote="Doug Elliott"]How many times have I heard "free buzzing has never worked for me"

I hear that from virtually every person who has a lesson from me, and yet by the end of the lesson they are freebuzzing, usually pretty well.[/quote]

Savio · by **Savio** » 2021-04-28 1:55 a.m.

Buzzing again? I wonder if someone use the method Jeff Reynolds do. That was a bit of a garden snake he cut of and put on the mouthpiece. I find that method easier to make the low register. Good for me since I have trouble with buzzing in that area.

Leif

BGuttman · by **BGuttman** » 2021-04-28 4:22 a.m.

I think you are referring to the F.A.R.T. (Forced Air Resistance Tube) that Ralph Sauer claimed to have invented. I used a 9 inch (225 mm) length of heater hose to make mine. Sauer also suggested putting a hole somewhere around 6 inches (150 mm) down the tube to use like the finger hole on a Baroque trumpet.

Basbasun · by **Basbasun** » 2021-04-28 5:49 a.m.

Buzzing again? I did a search for Buzzing. Search found 597 matches. From 2010 and on.

There are many oppinions on this matter, a never ending story. How many of you have shanged your oppinion since 2010?

baileyman · by **baileyman** » 2021-04-28 6:45 a.m.

[quote="BGuttman"]I've found that when I'm out of practice both mouthpiece buzzing and free buzzing don't work. In that case I'm depending on the resistance of the instrument to help keep the buzz working. I can get the mouthpiece buzz working by putting a finger partly over the end of the mouthpiece (increases back pressure). When I practice it seems the free buzz and the mouthpiece buzz work much better. I still can't buzz wide ranges or intricate songs, but I'm not trying to earn my living doing this.[/quote]

Buzzing can seem to require lots of effort, but that may just be trying at the wrong pitch. There is always a pitch that requires minimum effort, and it seems to be usually around partial 3, but it could be somewhere else. How much effort? Sometimes I think it's zero.

Anyway, if you can find a minimum effort pitch, then if you can warble it a bit up and down, then that's a step toward a full range low effort freebuzz.

I'd recommend tongue tuning to warble the pitch, as muscular contractions to move it can create much unhappiness.

harrisonreed · by **harrisonreed** » 2021-04-28 8:28 a.m.

Partial 3 on a mouthpiece would be an insanely high note. None of the pitches that come out of buzzing a mouthpiece are partials, when the fundamental of a 3 inch long tube is already extremely high.

timothy42b · by **timothy42b** » 2021-04-28 8:36 a.m.

[quote="harrisonreed"]I never put much thought into making a bathroom look nice, but I do recall the public toilet in the main airport in Ireland -- one wall was just an angled wall of cement you relieved yourself onto. No dividers. No flowing water.[/quote]

I was a little surprised at the bathroom in the main bus station at Wuerzburg Germany. I'd never seen that kind of flowing wall toilet - just a nicely done marble looking wall, about 30 feet long, with a sheet of water continuously flowing down it into a gutter.

At Oktoberfest in Munich, bathrooms had a trough with flowing water serving the same purpose.

Both of those are male centric, I don't know what the female bathrooms looked like. And I've never used the Japanese squat toilet but I can see why they do it that way.

Bach5G · by **Bach5G** » 2021-04-28 11:17 a.m.

[quote="BGuttman"]I think you are referring to the F.A.R.T. (Forced Air Resistance Tube) that Ralph Sauer claimed to have invented. I used a 9 inch (225 mm) length of heater hose to make mine. Sauer also suggested putting a hole somewhere around 6 inches (150 mm) down the tube to use like the finger hole on a Baroque trumpet.[/quote]

Jeff Reynolds, on the other hand, recommends a 6” length of poly tubing, no hole. Short enough to avoid setting up a harmonic series (I’m going from memory here) says JR. I made mine from clear poly irrigation piping, at about a dollar a foot from the local hardware store.

Because the tubing is clear, after a while you see stuff growing inside the tube. Time to soak them in a bit of bleach and hot water.

I buzz but I’m not evangelical about it.

Wilktone · by **Wilktone** » 2021-04-28 1:40 p.m.

The topic of this thread I think is supposed to be mouthpiece buzzing. It's evolved into discussing free/lip buzzing (somewhat related) and bathrooms.

[quote="PosauneCat"]Those of you who do a lot of mouthpiece buzzing:[/quote]

I don't mouthpiece buzz. I rarely use it when teaching. I think it has some limited value, but feel there are other things that provide more benefit with less risk.

[quote="PosauneCat"]Do you think your mouthpiece placement and musculature is EXACTLY the same as when you are blowing through the horn?[/quote]

Can't be. Buzzing on the mouthpiece alone removes the resonant feedback we get from the instrument. Advocates for mouthpiece buzzing are trying to exploit this difference, I think. Or at least that's the idea.

[quote="harrisonreed"]James Markey gets at it from a different angle.[/quote]

I didn't get the impression he was talking about mouthpiece buzzing, but rather using the term "buzzing" to describe the vibrating lips.

[quote="harrisonreed"]Trombone playing is not like sprinting or any athletic activity. It's a fine motor skill, muscles that easily over stressed and blown out from over work, which is what buzzing is.[/quote]

Well, it's both fine motor skill and muscular strength and control. Take a month or three off and we loose our range and endurance, which suggests there's more physical conditioning to it than I think you give credit.

[quote="harrisonreed"]Ask Phil Smith about what he thinks buzzing did to his career.[/quote]

An hour and a half of mouthpiece buzzing? That is the over work stress that you're talking about above, Harrison. That doesn't surprise me that he feels it caused problems.

[quote="harrisonreed"]I still like his own coin reference. How are you going to cut the coin in half alongg the edge, really polish up only one half of it, and then expect to put the coin back together and use it?[/quote]

I wouldn't take that expression too literally. It's really more of a tripod, if you add the tonguing. And I guess we'd also have to add slide technique to the mix too, so it's more of a four sided die. I really don't think anyone is suggesting that you can't work on one element of trombone technique while putting others on the back burner for a bit.

[quote="harrisonreed"]I haven't seen a video of someone freebuzzing "the right way", and I haven't seen a video of anyone doing any buzzing that transfers to the horn seamlessly.[/quote]

If I firm my lips and then place the mouthpiece on them with playing pressure without buzzing or starting to play the lips get shoved around a bit simply from the pressure of the mouthpiece alone. I don't think that we're going to find a perfect example where someone buzzes into the instrument and everything will look exactly the same from free buzz to playing.

But I do feel for many players that sort of practice (done correctly and an appropriate amount) can be very beneficial. Again, if you do an hour and a half of it you're probably going to wreck your chops.

[quote="Basbasun"]As some one said "if I play an F as beautiful I can" and take the horn away from the mpc/mouth there will not be any sound. If I don´t blow a little harder, or flex my chops a little. If iI play the F and take away the horn/mpc from my chops still blowing, there is only air no tone, if I am still blowing and put the horn/mpc back on my chops the F is back[/quote]

Right, when we remove the resonance feedback from the horn we have to adjust how we're blowing and forming the embouchure in order to keep the buzz going. The question is whether this is useful to practice. For mouthpiece buzzing, I would lean towards not helpful.

[quote="LeTromboniste"]Years ago, Jorgen van Rijen led my then-flatmate to do a mouthpiece buzzing exercise in a masterclass. With 5 or 10 minutes of the exercise there was a massive improvement in the consistency of his tone that everyone in the hall could hear. It was like the doors had been blasted wide open to a facet of his playing.[/quote]

One of my mentors, John Seidel, used to use mouthpiece buzzing with his students all the time. He would have us play a few phrases of a Rochut (or something similar), buzz it on the mouthpiece, and then immediately play it again on the instrument. There was almost always an immediate improvement in tone. I believe that it was partly due to getting the player to coordinate air, embouchure, and ear better.

I've found in my own teaching that the results of this mouthpiece buzzing exercise don't last for very long. This can lead a student to keep repeating the mouthpiece buzzing to the point of where it's no longer very helpful and possibly harmful. But sometimes I will use this exercise if a student is feeling frustrated and needs a quick boost in confidence.

[quote="Basbasun"]Buzzing again? I did a search for Buzzing. Search found 597 matches. From 2010 and on.

There are many oppinions on this matter, a never ending story. How many of you have shanged your oppinion since 2010?[/quote]

I'm open to changing my mind. In 2017 Jason Beghtol completed his dissertation study, "~~[url=https://egrove.olemiss.edu/etd/714/]~~The Effect Of A Researcher Composed Mouthpiece Buzzing Routine On The Intonation And Tone Quality Of Beginning Band Brass Students." I don't recall from the full paper whether or not he thought he would find significant results going into the study, but the end result was no real difference between the mouthpiece buzzing brass students and the control group. That would suggest that perhaps mouthpiece buzzing isn't as helpful as many seem to feel, at least for beginning students over the course of a year.

Dave

Bach5G · by **Bach5G** » 2021-04-28 2:15 p.m.

Shooting skeet eight hours a month was excellent training for them. It trained them to shoot skeet.

--Joseph Heller, Catch-22.

VJOFan · by **VJOFan** » 2021-04-28 2:37 p.m.

[quote="Doug Elliott"]This might not make sense to everybody, but have you ever tried running on a sloped surface, where one foot is constantly higher than the other? Or on a curb, with your right foot hitting the curb and your left foot in the gutter?

It's running...[/quote]

Funny, I actually do that regularly. It stresses and strengthens the muscles in different ways, improves overall athleticism, improves proprioception and forces a slower pace so an easy run stays easy.

I am talking about snaking back and forth across a grade. A giant curb difference would not be comfortable at all.

So which is buzzing in your opinion, a strategic workout that has defined benefits when done in a controlled manner (zigzag running) or an uncomfortable, potentially injurious practice (running half on, half off a curb)?

Doug_Elliott · by **Doug_Elliott** » 2021-04-28 5:15 p.m.

I'll continue with the running analogy.

I discovered a few years ago that my right leg is shorter than my left leg. I had lower back problems for many years, and then I experimented with shoe inserts and discovered how much height I needed to add. Now I have 5/8" added to the sole of all my right shoes. No more back pain, that correction was what I needed. So if I walk or run barefoot, I feel it in my lower back.... if the ground is level. If the ground is sloped so the right side is higher, I would be comfortable. If the ground is sloped so the left side is higher, I would quickly injure my back because there would then be a 1-1/4 inch discrepancy, to my back.

OK, back to trombone. I play on the left side of my mouth because that's where it works best, by far. I discovered that accidentally - it makes a huge difference in my playing, although I can also play in other directions and it sounds pretty much the same.

If I buzz on the mouthpiece, I can't really tell that the left side works better. Maybe buzzing works even better someplace else. Should I buzz on the mouthpiece?

My answer is no. I think it's important to reinforce correct sensations that apply to playing. Why would I practice and therefore reinforce something else?

And that's me, knowing these things. Most players don't know, and I haven't yet seen someone mouthpiece buzz with exactly the same form that I think they should use for playing. It's always "something else."

I know a lot of players use mouthpiece buzzing for other purposes, like accurate pitch and air flow - and those are obviously good things to practice. I just do and teach those things quite effectively without mouthpiece buzzing.

Kbiggs · by **Kbiggs** » 2021-04-28 7:21 p.m.

Perhaps—for the majority of players—freebuzzing and mouthpiece buzzing help with coordination and accuracy, as well muscle strength and endurance, as Doug and Dave have pointed out. I have tried both and find them beneficial. At least, that’s what I tell myself. My belief, without any studies or comparisons, is that the advantages of mouthpiece and free buzzing outweigh any disadvantages. Five, 10, maybe 15 minutes in a day seems about right. Any more and it feels counter-productive.

PaulTdot · by **PaulTdot** » 2021-04-29 12:59 p.m.

I have experimented with mouthpiece buzzing and free buzzing a great deal, including long periods of time where I didn't mouthpiece buzz at all. (I was once called in to teach a brass pedagogy class, and the students were working on some mouthpiece buzzing, so I tried to demonstrate for them and was rather embarrassed to discover I couldn't do it anymore! Now I do quite a bit of again, years later, because finding space to play the horn during the pandemic is difficult.)

In NYC, I ran into some players who believed there were two "types" of brass players: the "long tone players" and the "mouthpiece buzzers". They claimed to be able to hear the difference, and appreciate both sounds/approaches. The "long tone players" grounded their playing in long tones, always on the horn. The "mouthpiece buzzers", on the other hand, had their basis for their technique grounded in a lot of mouthpiece buzzing. I suppose you were supposed to know by how a person warmed up, or something like that. I'm pretty skeptical of that, but there is no doubt that there are incredible players who use mouthpiece buzzing extensively as well as incredible players who never do it, and the same goes for free buzzing.

I think that free/lip buzzing and mouthpiece buzzing are both potentially useful and potentially harmful: it really depends on what you're lacking in your playing, and what you need to reestablish balance, as well as, most importantly, HOW you do it.

I think of both approaches as cross-training: as in Doug's analogy (I also have a shorter right leg!), running on a slope could be really helpful or really harmful, depending on your anatomy and your technique. You have to be extremely mindful, because both are possibilities.

Ultimately, playing the horn is your goal: it does you no good to develop techniques or skills that work well on, say, just the mouthpiece, if it doesn't transfer to the horn. (Or indirectly support your playing.)

Personally, I find free buzzing (if taught and done correctly; being particularly mindful of upstream players, who can't buzz as they play, as well) almost magical. A great way to develop consistency, balance, and strength, as well as to learn what balanced "embouchure firmness" feels like, which helps with mouthpiece placement as well as some chop problems. When I've been able to teach a beginner to free buzz correctly, they can often play about 2 octaves on the instrument with the sound of someone who's been playing for years. (Although they need to build up the endurance to be able to play! You can watch endurance in beginners, muscles engaging and then failing within *seconds*. Quite remarkable!)

I teach my students not to buzz for more than a minute or two - get a good workout and get out. (In my own practice, I've experimented with up to 2 hours (!!!) of free buzzing on occasion. It's possible and builds a ton of strength, but it's also easy to experience some real strain, so I don't recommend this to anyone. I benefited from it, but I had to be quite careful.)

Mouthpiece buzzing, on the other hand, I'm more cautious about. It helps to add some resistance to the mouthpiece, especially if you want to buzz lower. It's possible to do things with the mouthpiece that work and are completely different from what you do on the horn: I once developed an extended register on the mouthpiece, but couldn't replicate it on the horn (this was a cue for me to stop mouthpiece buzzing, and why I quit it for many years).

Mouthpiece playing is great for opening up the sound, working on your ears and pitch, and endurance. Carefully assigned to a player who might be having trouble getting a good sound despite otherwise solid mechanics, it can help open up their sound, or help identify pitch issues.

These days I use mouthpiece buzzing (with the lessened resistance) to compensate for having to do most of my playing with a practice mute (with extra resistance), and that has been working to maintain the balance. I've also experimented with doing long sessions of over an hour. Again, great for strength and endurance; a killer way to "get back in shape" if you need to.

However, it's *really* easy to develop technique or mechanics on the mouthpiece that don't transfer to the horn (or worse, do, when they shouldn't!). I don't recommend it unless you are confident of a number of factors in your playing (and those factors would mean that you'd benefit from it, which isn't always the case). Lip buzzing + playing the horn is much safer, and just playing the horn might be safest (but you'd be missing out on the benefits of lip buzzing!).

In both cases, I think the danger zone is the lower register. Stay away from there unless you are *really* sure you know what you're doing. It's too easy to do entirely unhelpful things in order to get those notes to speak, and I'm doubtful that there's ANY benefit to doing so at all. All my buzzing (lip and mouthpiece) is middle register and up. Lip buzzing is best done quietly and with control. Mouthpiece buzzing, on the other hand, is good to do at a healthy volume, with a strong sound, and... carefully, because that's a lot of strain on your chops - playing a "strong" sound on a mouthpiece is like playing ff or fff on the horn (just try transferring that buzz to the horn and you'll see!), with all the attendant dangers and issues.

Doug_Elliott · by **Doug_Elliott** » 2021-04-29 1:07 p.m.

Good post

PaulTdot · by **PaulTdot** » 2021-04-29 1:22 p.m.

Thanks, Doug!

baileyman · by **baileyman** » 2021-04-29 4:28 p.m.

[quote="PaulTdot"]...the danger zone is the lower register. Stay away from there unless you are *really* sure you know what you're doing. It's too easy to do entirely unhelpful things in order to get those notes to speak, and I'm doubtful that there's ANY benefit to doing so at all. All my buzzing (lip and mouthpiece) is middle register and up. Lip buzzing is best done quietly and with control. Mouthpiece buzzing, on the other hand, is good to do at a healthy volume, with a strong sound, and... carefully, because that's a lot of strain on your chops - playing a "strong" sound on a mouthpiece is like playing ff or fff on the horn (just try transferring that buzz to the horn and you'll see!), with all the attendant dangers and issues.[/quote]

Great observations. Who knows what's *right*?

I have found some workarounds to get lower, too, and on their own do not seem helpful. For instance, I cannot (yet) freebuzz pedal Bb and then get it on the horn using the workaround. However, the action of, say, glissing from low Eb to pedal Bb including the workaround seems to inform the same thing on the horn. I figure it's not the workaround but negotiating the interval that provides the lesson.

I have also found my freebuzz buzzes in my ears so strongly I can hardly hear anything. Definitely not quiet! I'll try to pipe down a bit...

On piece blowing, a trumpet buddy from Glostah said he was walking through Rockport one night and heard a loud wailing coming from somewhere, not recognizable but somehow familiar, echoing off the buildings. Turning a corner, a fellow was ripping some sirens on a trumpet mouthpiece. The guy turned out to be Arturo Sandoval, appearing at the Shalin Liu Center. So there's at least one example of piece volume.

I suppose for every preference in practice there exists at least one person doing well the opposite.

Doug_Elliott · by **Doug_Elliott** » 2021-04-29 5:33 p.m.

"Glostah"

nice!

greenbean · by **greenbean** » 2021-04-30 1:44 a.m.

That's wicked funny! :good:

BGuttman · by **BGuttman** » 2021-04-30 4:39 a.m.

Better than "Glau-chester", which is how non New Englanders say it.

PosauneCat · 2021-04-30 2:22 p.m.

:D a very relevant quote. One of my fav books!

[quote="Bach5G"]Shooting skeet eight hours a month was excellent training for them. It trained them to shoot skeet.

--Joseph Heller, Catch-22.[/quote]

PosauneCat · by **PosauneCat** » 2021-04-30 2:31 p.m.

A great reply. Thanks!

[quote="PaulTdot"]I have experimented with mouthpiece buzzing and free buzzing a great deal, including long periods of time where I didn't mouthpiece buzz at all. (I was once called in to teach a brass pedagogy class, and the students were working on some mouthpiece buzzing, so I tried to demonstrate for them and was rather embarrassed to discover I couldn't do it anymore! Now I do quite a bit of again, years later, because finding space to play the horn during the pandemic is difficult.)

In NYC, I ran into some players who believed there were two "types" of brass players: the "long tone players" and the "mouthpiece buzzers". They claimed to be able to hear the difference, and appreciate both sounds/approaches. The "long tone players" grounded their playing in long tones, always on the horn. The "mouthpiece buzzers", on the other hand, had their basis for their technique grounded in a lot of mouthpiece buzzing. I suppose you were supposed to know by how a person warmed up, or something like that. I'm pretty skeptical of that, but there is no doubt that there are incredible players who use mouthpiece buzzing extensively as well as incredible players who never do it, and the same goes for free buzzing.

I think that free/lip buzzing and mouthpiece buzzing are both potentially useful and potentially harmful: it really depends on what you're lacking in your playing, and what you need to reestablish balance, as well as, most importantly, HOW you do it.

I think of both approaches as cross-training: as in Doug's analogy (I also have a shorter right leg!), running on a slope could be really helpful or really harmful, depending on your anatomy and your technique. You have to be extremely mindful, because both are possibilities.

Ultimately, playing the horn is your goal: it does you no good to develop techniques or skills that work well on, say, just the mouthpiece, if it doesn't transfer to the horn. (Or indirectly support your playing.)

Personally, I find free buzzing (if taught and done correctly; being particularly mindful of upstream players, who can't buzz as they play, as well) almost magical. A great way to develop consistency, balance, and strength, as well as to learn what balanced "embouchure firmness" feels like, which helps with mouthpiece placement as well as some chop problems. When I've been able to teach a beginner to free buzz correctly, they can often play about 2 octaves on the instrument with the sound of someone who's been playing for years. (Although they need to build up the endurance to be able to play! You can watch endurance in beginners, muscles engaging and then failing within *seconds*. Quite remarkable!)

I teach my students not to buzz for more than a minute or two - get a good workout and get out. (In my own practice, I've experimented with up to 2 hours (!!!) of free buzzing on occasion. It's possible and builds a ton of strength, but it's also easy to experience some real strain, so I don't recommend this to anyone. I benefited from it, but I had to be quite careful.)

Mouthpiece buzzing, on the other hand, I'm more cautious about. It helps to add some resistance to the mouthpiece, especially if you want to buzz lower. It's possible to do things with the mouthpiece that work and are completely different from what you do on the horn: I once developed an extended register on the mouthpiece, but couldn't replicate it on the horn (this was a cue for me to stop mouthpiece buzzing, and why I quit it for many years).

Mouthpiece playing is great for opening up the sound, working on your ears and pitch, and endurance. Carefully assigned to a player who might be having trouble getting a good sound despite otherwise solid mechanics, it can help open up their sound, or help identify pitch issues.

These days I use mouthpiece buzzing (with the lessened resistance) to compensate for having to do most of my playing with a practice mute (with extra resistance), and that has been working to maintain the balance. I've also experimented with doing long sessions of over an hour. Again, great for strength and endurance; a killer way to "get back in shape" if you need to.

However, it's *really* easy to develop technique or mechanics on the mouthpiece that don't transfer to the horn (or worse, do, when they shouldn't!). I don't recommend it unless you are confident of a number of factors in your playing (and those factors would mean that you'd benefit from it, which isn't always the case). Lip buzzing + playing the horn is much safer, and just playing the horn might be safest (but you'd be missing out on the benefits of lip buzzing!).

In both cases, I think the danger zone is the lower register. Stay away from there unless you are *really* sure you know what you're doing. It's too easy to do entirely unhelpful things in order to get those notes to speak, and I'm doubtful that there's ANY benefit to doing so at all. All my buzzing (lip and mouthpiece) is middle register and up. Lip buzzing is best done quietly and with control. Mouthpiece buzzing, on the other hand, is good to do at a healthy volume, with a strong sound, and... carefully, because that's a lot of strain on your chops - playing a "strong" sound on a mouthpiece is like playing ff or fff on the horn (just try transferring that buzz to the horn and you'll see!), with all the attendant dangers and issues.[/quote]

Savio · by **Savio** » 2021-04-30 2:57 p.m.

[quote="Basbasun"]Buzzing again? I did a search for Buzzing. Search found 597 matches. From 2010 and on.

There are many oppinions on this matter, a never ending story. How many of you have shanged your oppinion since 2010?[/quote]

To tell the truth I didn't have so much opinions in 2010 and don't have it to day either. :shuffle: So much videos, so many posts about it. Everyone is different. What to believe or trust? Must be confusing for young upcoming players? Have to admit it is for me too. I feel young :) but are definitely not upcoming... :biggrin:

I do mouthpiece buzzing with the small kids I teach. Especially the one's who blow out their cheeks when playing. It seems to stop that habit.

Leif

slidefunk · by **slidefunk** » 2021-04-30 2:59 p.m.

"Playing the mouthpiece alone is not exactly like playing the instrument. But it is close enough to the instrument that there is marvelous transfer value. In other words, you can develop skills on the mouthpiece that can then be applied to the instrument, with the help of imagination."

"When playing the mouthpiece, think that you forgot the instrument at home, but you still have to entertain your audience. You'll see that as you play the mouthpiece, the storytelling aspect of your playing will increase. When you add the mouthpiece to your instrument, your sound will sparkle. This mouthpiece training will connect your artistic thoughts to the tissue."

-Arnold Jacobs

Wilktone · by **Wilktone** » 2021-04-30 7:02 p.m.

“I hardly ever consider the embouchure.” - Arnold Jacobs

harrisonreed · by **harrisonreed** » 2021-04-30 7:37 p.m.

[quote="slidefunk"]"Playing the mouthpiece alone is not exactly like playing the instrument. But it is close enough to the instrument that there is marvelous transfer value. In other words, you can develop skills on the mouthpiece that can then be applied to the instrument, with the help of imagination."

"When playing the mouthpiece, think that you forgot the instrument at home, but you still have to entertain your audience. You'll see that as you play the mouthpiece, the storytelling aspect of your playing will increase. When you add the mouthpiece to your instrument, your sound will sparkle. This mouthpiece training will connect your artistic thoughts to the tissue."

-Arnold Jacobs[/quote]

That is straight up the "think method". If you try really hard and just believe in yourself....

Savio · by **Savio** » 2021-04-30 8:45 p.m.

I find it a little childishly to compare different teaching methods especially when we don't know exactly the method of people like Arnold Jacobs. He didn't write a book, but he obvious was teacher that had success. Not only in the brass world. Why be competitive about teaching methods? Like this is right, this is wrong? He is wrong, I'm right. Maybe a business question?

I'm also a teacher but on a lower level, I never say to my students this is the only method to follow. I'm very open and try to make them discover their own possibilities, their own strength and go from there. Because I don't know what is right, but try to make them find it and go their own way. And since I teach children I also try to make it fun.

Don't take me wrong all you good teachers, we are here to see potensial, skills and talents and gently guide it on the road, make them have a positive experience with music. But Not to bring other teachers methods in a bad light or put it down...you know what I mean. I think thats why some famous people never writes a method book. And thats why we shouldn't use words they have told in any other contexts:

[quote="Wilktone"]“I hardly ever consider the embouchure.” - Arnold Jacobs[/quote]

It makes me think what I have told each student I had during nearly 40 year's. My god, then I might be in jail :shuffle: :biggrin: :amazed: :cool:

Leif

PosauneCat · 2021-04-30 11:54 p.m.

[quote="harrisonreed"]

That is straight up the "think method". If you try really hard and just believe in yourself....[/quote]...

Yeah, but it’s also the basis of a placebo. If something is nonsense to someone but a life saver to another, is it wrong?

If anything, this post has shown me that there are divided opinions about the subject and apparently divided results. I wonder how much of what we can do in our own lives is simply the result of believing we can, and how many of our failures are simply the result of believing we can’t?

Thanks to everyone for sharing your thoughts.

Mike

harrisonreed · by **harrisonreed** » 2021-05-01 1:06 a.m.

[quote="PosauneCat"]<QUOTE author="harrisonreed" post_id="147558" time="1619825842" user_id="3642">

That is straight up the "think method". If you try really hard and just believe in yourself....[/quote]...

Yeah, but it’s also the basis of a placebo. If something is nonsense to someone but a life saver to another, is it wrong?

If anything, this post has shown me that there are divided opinions about the subject and apparently divided results. I wonder how much of what we can do in our own lives is simply the result of believing we can, and how many of our failures are simply the result of believing we couldn’t?

Thanks to everyone for sharing your thoughts.

Mike
</QUOTE>

There is no denying that Arnold Jacobs produced some of the best brass players as a teacher.

PosauneCat · by **PosauneCat** » 2021-05-01 5:37 a.m.

[quote="harrisonreed"]

There is no denying that Arnold Jacobs produced some of the best brass players as a teacher.[/quote]

Very true.

brtnats · by **brtnats** » 2021-05-01 6:31 a.m.

I rim buzz using my Reinhardt pivot that Doug helped me understand, and I make the pivot the same way on the horn as on the rim. I can carry a rim in my pocket or on my keys, and the benefit of being able to take a few moments and buzz throughout the day has had a positive effect on my playing. YMMV.

brtnats · by **brtnats** » 2021-05-01 6:38 a.m.

[quote="PosauneCat"]<QUOTE author="harrisonreed" post_id="147577" time="1619845561" user_id="3642">

There is no denying that Arnold Jacobs produced some of the best brass players as a teacher.[/quote]

Very true.
</QUOTE>

There’s also a strong possibility his particular teaching strategy works well with one kind of student and not another. I’d think Jacobs would not have been the best teacher for analytically-minded students.

(Edited for clarity)

PosauneCat · by **PosauneCat** » 2021-05-01 10:02 a.m.

[quote="brtnats"]I rim buzz using my Reinhardt pivot that Doug helped me understand, and I make the pivot the same way on the horn as on the rim. I can carry a rim in my pocket or on my keys, and the benefit of being able to take a few moments and buzz throughout the day has had a positive effect on my playing. YMMV.[/quote]

Hmm, an interesting idea.

Pre59 · by **Pre59** » 2021-05-01 10:19 a.m.

[quote="PosauneCat"]<QUOTE author="harrisonreed" post_id="147577" time="1619845561" user_id="3642">

There is no denying that Arnold Jacobs produced some of the best brass players as a teacher.[/quote]

Very true.
</QUOTE>

But the fact that they got as far as lessons with "AJ" suggests to me that they were already on their way to being good players.

Wilktone · by **Wilktone** » 2021-05-01 10:32 a.m.

For the record, there is absolutely nothing wrong with "connecting your artistic thoughts to the tissue." In fact, I argue that this should be essential part of of your practice. My point, however, is that it shouldn't be the only part. Or necessarily the main part.

[quote="Savio"]I find it a little childishly to compare different teaching methods especially when we don't know exactly the method of people like Arnold Jacobs. He didn't write a book, but he obvious was teacher that had success. Not only in the brass world. Why be competitive about teaching methods? Like this is right, this is wrong? He is wrong, I'm right. Maybe a business question?[/quote]

I don't think there's anything wrong about comparing different approaches and looking for the relative merits and effectiveness between them. In fact, I argue that this is an essential part of improving our abilities as teachers and advancing the field as a whole. Is this right or wrong? It absolutely matters, as long as we are taking an objective look at the issue. Disagreements are fine. In other fields (e.g., sciences) they are the driving force behind working towards a more effective understanding of the way things actually work.

[quote="Savio"]And thats why we shouldn't use words they have told in any other contexts:[/quote]

For the curious, here is the context in which Jacobs said, "I hardly ever consider the embouchure."

<YOUTUBE id="x_a7o7-QiYU">~~[media]~~https://youtu.be/x_a7o7-QiYU</YOUTUBE>

My point in putting that quote out there is that (merits of his approach aside) we might not want to consider someone who "hardly ever considers the embouchure" as a leading resource in embouchure technique. I could pick apart a lot of the things he states in that video. There are other folks who are more knowledgable who make better references for us in that area.

[quote="PosauneCat"]Yeah, but it’s also the basis of a placebo. If something is nonsense to someone but a life saver to another, is it wrong?[/quote]

Does the teacher offering the advice know the difference? In other words, is the student actually getting better or is the student getting better at playing wrong? Having some objective ways to look at student performance will help the teacher know the difference.

In medicine there's the idea of informed consent. If you enroll in a clinical trial for research purposes you go into the intervention knowing that you might be getting a placebo. In actual clinical practice it's considered unethical to give someone a placebo and misinform them that you're providing actual treatment.

The thing about placebo is that the effect tends to go away over time. I wrote above about my observations on how there is usually an immediate improvement after buzzing on the mouthpiece, but that it doesn't usually last.

[quote="harrisonreed"]There is no denying that Arnold Jacobs produced some of the best brass players as a teacher.[/quote]

He also had some of the best brass players go to him for lessons to get better, so it shouldn't be a surprise that his studio had so many excellent brass players. Ultimately I think the ideas should stand on their own merit, regardless of who said them. Too often in these sorts of discussions we start using the reputation of the person who said something supporting our own position as evidence. It might be a good enough reason to take that idea seriously, but if the idea doesn't hold water in the end, it's worth putting aside. That's no reason to invalidate everything that the famous teacher/player said, of course, but even the best of us are wrong from time to time. And even a broken clock is right twice a day.

[quote="brtnats"]There’s also a strong possibility his particular teaching strategy works well with one kind of student and not another. I’d think Jacobs would not have been the best teacher for analytically-minded students.[/quote]

We are all analytically-minded students. We're all intuitive learners. We're all visual learners and auditory learners. The whole concept of "teaching styles" has not been supported by student success, but this myth still persists even in the field of education. There are learning preferences, but how we prefer to take in information isn't always the best medium for the lesson.

Good pedagogy teaches for the situation, not the student's supposed "learning style." There's a time and place for everyone for "think product, not process." There's also a time and place for everyone to be more analytical and get down into the weeds of the details. Paralysis by analysis means you're doing it wrong.

There are less subjective ways to look at the merits and detriments to mouthpiece buzzing. Jason Beghtol's dissertation, which I linked to earlier in this thread, is one way (although we need to be aware of the limitations imposed by the methodology).

Dave

slidefunk · by **slidefunk** » 2021-05-01 2:38 p.m.

From the Hal Leonard Advanced Band Method, to which Jacobs contributed a special studies section at the back of the book. Keep in mind, this is a studies book for tuba, but I personally think most of Jacob's approach is applicable to all the low brass.

"I have included a page of exercises to be played on the mouthpiece without the Tuba. I believe this type of practice to have many benefits and recommend at least 5 to 10 minutes of playing before starting practice on the Tuba. This practice should include melodies as well as drill forms. Expanding the range, particularly in the high notes, is a great help to the player. Many times he will achieve success on the mouthpiece before he will on the Tuba, thereby making it easier to transfer the new ability to the instrument."

On a personal note, I took a lesson a few years ago from a prominent Broadway player. He had me try to play some things on the mouthpiece. I say try, because I couldn't do it at all. He recommended I work on it and suggested a few buzzing and breathing tools I could purchase. He had added buzzing to his practice routine after a string of lessons with Jacobs in the 90s.

I came away a bit disheartened, mostly because I felt like I was lacking a major mechanic in my playing. I spent the next year starting every day on the mouthpiece, maybe 15-20 minutes. Here's the thing: I don't think I got much out of it. Certainly I became a better buzzer, but it didn't make me better player or fix the sound issues I was dealing with. Was that the fault of the method, or was it a lack of understanding the tool and how to use it? Had I really grasped its use after one lesson?

I got away from buzzing after a while, but I am trying to add it back into my toolbox. Not as a routine but as a different way of approaching a difficult passage or exercise. It's a great way of examining your air and connecting your artistic thoughts to the tissue, as Jacobs would have put it.

Just my two cents.

timothy42b · by **timothy42b** » 2021-05-02 7:41 a.m.

Interesting video, thanks for sharing.

At about 6:00 he says he gives them music, and by trial and error they figure the embouchure out. I would find that discouraging.

PaulTdot · by **PaulTdot** » 2021-05-02 2:16 p.m.

[quote="timothy42b"]At about 6:00 he says he gives them music, and by trial and error they figure the embouchure out. I would find that discouraging.[/quote]

So many of us do. And have.

Kbiggs · by **Kbiggs** » 2021-05-02 5:01 p.m.

[quote="timothy42b"]Interesting video, thanks for sharing.

At about 6:00 he says he gives them music, and by trial and error they figure the embouchure out. I would find that discouraging.[/quote]

I think it’s important to place that statement in context. Just before that, an audience members asks about how to help a student stabilize the embouchure. Jacobs says he wouldn’t focus on the embouchure because “it’s a variable.” He then goes on to say, “You stabilize the embouchure by stabilizing the music.”

My interpretation: In the long run, my feeling is that Jacobs’ teaching is spot on. Our focus as musicians should be on playing, teaching and talking about music. However, I also think Jacobs glosses over the problems that many people have with embouchure. I think, however, that was a deliberate choice on his part—to get people to focus on song and wind (making music and breathing naturally) rather than focusing on (and getting stuck on) forming the embouchure.

Having said that, and having gone down the rabbit hole of “what’s wrong with my embouchure” in the past, I think it is equally important to have good mechanics with the embouchure, and to have a knowledgeable teacher to guide students (and me!) towards better functioning and more efficient embouchures and playing mechanics.

At the same time, there’s a quite a few examples of people with screwy embouchures who manage to play without focusing so much attention to the mechanics of a good embouchure, like Vincent Chicowicz, Dizzy Gillespie, etc. I believe (and I may be wrong) that they’re focusing on making music, and not on their embouchures.

Wilktone · by **Wilktone** » 2021-05-02 5:50 p.m.

[quote="Kbiggs"]Jacobs says he wouldn’t focus on the embouchure because “it’s a variable.”[/quote]

The question he was asked was, "How would you go about altering an embouchure that you know doesn't work because of the muscle structure or an embouchure that doesn't function as well as it should because of the placement?" I don't see any way that assignments of music are going to lead a student to their correct mouthpiece placement.

There are lots of "variables" in playing and teaching. How the student's embouchure mechanics are one variable. So it whether their attention is on the music or the breathing or something else.

Jacobs was pretty clear that he never wanted a student's attention on the embouchure. Jacobs also never really discussed correct embouchure mechanics, even though the information was available during his life. He either didn't know about it, or strongly felt that it wasn't important enough to consider.

There's a lot that worth applying in our teaching and practice that Jacobs said. But I don't consider him a good source on embouchure technique.

Doug_Elliott · by **Doug_Elliott** » 2021-05-02 6:41 p.m.

I wonder if, in the entire field of music, any other prominent teacher of any instrument or voice has made their mark suggesting the musician should NOT know how they do their craft, and should not work on the mechanics of it.

harrisonreed · by **harrisonreed** » 2021-05-02 7:33 p.m.

In the Arnold Jacobs video at around 4:40 he says "if we could use electronic stimulus to vibrate the lips, we wouldn't need air....(the horn amplifies the vibrating lips)"

This is not at all how brass instruments work. Misleading. Why not just use a traffic cone in the orchestra with no mouthpiece, and see how that goes?

Remarkable that such a great musician, who no doubt (I don't know maybe he didn't) helped develop instruments, and tried out mouthpieces and leadpipes to get the best possible balance he could on his instrument, would say that all R&D has nothing to do with the air going into it and vibrating and is basically just a megaphone for buzzing lips.

The entire video and teaching method is showing its age.

FOSSIL · by **FOSSIL** » 2021-05-03 5:46 a.m.

Health warning to the argumentative.... this is basically a Reinhardt forum and any mention of Jacobs will not end well. Just let it go and don't mention AJ any more.

Puzzles me why we argue about teachers from more than half a century ago....have we not moved on in any way at all in all these years ? Nothing new ?

Chris

baileyman · by **baileyman** » 2021-05-03 6:52 a.m.

[quote="harrisonreed"]In the Arnold Jacobs video at around 4:40 he says "if we could use electronic stimulus to vibrate the lips, we wouldn't need air....(the horn amplifies the vibrating lips)"

This is not at all how brass instruments work. Misleading. Why not just use a traffic cone in the orchestra with no mouthpiece, and see how that goes?

Remarkable that such a great musician, who no doubt (I don't know maybe he didn't) helped develop instruments, and tried out mouthpieces and leadpipes to get the best possible balance he could on his instrument, would say that all R&D has nothing to do with the air going into it and vibrating and is basically just a megaphone for buzzing lips.

The entire video and teaching method is showing its age.[/quote]

Ask and you shall receive:

https://asa.scitation.org/doi/10.1121/1.424375

<LINK_TEXT text="https://www.researchgate.net/figure/The ... _228887506">https://www.researchgate.net/figure/The-artificial-lip-reed-player-not-to-scale_fig1_228887506</LINK_TEXT>

https://era.ed.ac.uk/handle/1842/13512

harrisonreed · 2021-05-03 7:26 a.m.

[quote="baileyman"]<QUOTE author="harrisonreed" post_id="147689" time="1619998438" user_id="3642">
In the Arnold Jacobs video at around 4:40 he says "if we could use electronic stimulus to vibrate the lips, we wouldn't need air....(the horn amplifies the vibrating lips)"

This is not at all how brass instruments work. Misleading. Why not just use a traffic cone in the orchestra with no mouthpiece, and see how that goes?

Remarkable that such a great musician, who no doubt (I don't know maybe he didn't) helped develop instruments, and tried out mouthpieces and leadpipes to get the best possible balance he could on his instrument, would say that all R&D has nothing to do with the air going into it and vibrating and is basically just a megaphone for buzzing lips.

The entire video and teaching method is showing its age.[/quote]

Ask and you shall receive:

https://asa.scitation.org/doi/10.1121/1.424375

<LINK_TEXT text="https://www.researchgate.net/figure/The ... _228887506">https://www.researchgate.net/figure/The-artificial-lip-reed-player-not-to-scale_fig1_228887506</LINK_TEXT>

https://era.ed.ac.uk/handle/1842/13512
</QUOTE>

Those experiments seem to include air in the mix though ... That's not what Jacobs was talking about. He mentioned no air and electrically stimulated vibration. Let's imagine .... Erm ... Two electric razors put together like lips and then turned on. They no doubt make a tone of some sort. Then you put those up against the mouthpiece of a horn like lips. According to Jacobs, the horn amplifies that and makes a tone with no air.

That is craziness

BGuttman · by **BGuttman** » 2021-05-03 8:06 a.m.

You can't get the lip reed vibrating without air flow. Try it some time. ;)

(Same thing goes for reed reed systems; and especially for flutes, where the vibration is caused by air on a sharp edge.)

slidefunk · by **slidefunk** » 2021-05-03 11:51 a.m.

[quote="FOSSIL"]Health warning to the argumentative.... this is basically a Reinhardt forum and any mention of Jacobs will not end well. Just let it go and don't mention AJ any more.[/quote]

Jeez, no kidding lol

Kbiggs · by **Kbiggs** » 2021-05-03 12:44 p.m.

[quote="FOSSIL"]Health warning to the argumentative.... this is basically a Reinhardt forum and any mention of Jacobs will not end well. Just let it go and don't mention AJ any more.

Puzzles me why we argue about teachers from more than half a century ago....have we not moved on in any way at all in all these years ? Nothing new ?

Chris[/quote]

I hope this doesn’t come across as argumentative...

We don’t know why Jacobs avoided talking about embouchure. He usually talked around the subject by saying that it should be driven (my words) by the air and controlled by the brain/mind. We do know that he advocated and demonstrated lip buzzing and mouthpiece buzzing though, which are shown in the vide clip above. It is curious. I speculated above why this might be the case.

Side note... we can argue about the relative merits of teaching schools and philosophies until the cows come home. Certainly, every teacher and teaching philosophy has limitations. Using Jacobs as a whipping-boy doesn’t seem terribly pertinent or even important to this thread. There are other teachers and schools of playing that avoid talking about embouchure as well. There are other teachers and schools of playing that discourage free-buzzing and mouthpiece buzzing. Still, there are lots of people who can do one or the other, or both. There are also people (no doubt some fine players) who can’t do one or the other, or even both. Vive la differénce!

At any rate, I can free-buzz and mouthpiece buzz, I do free-buzzing and mouthpiece buzzing, and I will continue to do so.

Savio · by **Savio** » 2021-05-03 2:14 p.m.

[quote="FOSSIL"]Health warning to the argumentative.... this is basically a Reinhardt forum and any mention of Jacobs will not end well. Just let it go and don't mention AJ any more.

Puzzles me why we argue about teachers from more than half a century ago....have we not moved on in any way at all in all these years ? Nothing new ?

Chris[/quote]

:good: :good:

I admit I don't have much knowledge about any method. But didn't the man we shouldn't mention :D even have string players with elbow problems and he helped them? Must have known a lot about the body then? Well back to buzzing, I buzz a little as warm up. Seems to help me get ready quicker for playing.

Leif

harrisonreed · by **harrisonreed** » 2021-05-03 6:19 p.m.

[quote="FOSSIL"]Health warning to the argumentative.... this is basically a Reinhardt forum and any mention of Jacobs will not end well. Just let it go and don't mention AJ any more.

Puzzles me why we argue about teachers from more than half a century ago....have we not moved on in any way at all in all these years ? Nothing new ?

Chris[/quote]

I think it is because some prominent teachers of today are still hanging on by their nails to this outdated stuff. "I knew a guy who knew a guy who studied under Jacobs. And I had one lesson with their brother" That sort of thing.

At least from what I can gather, that is a credential still: "Dr. So-and-so, professor of trombone. Had one lesson with a guy who shared a beer with the brother of Reinhardt's student's cousin"

You see it in the Bible and in the Illiad.

"I am Tuberculosiscles, the cousin of the great grandson of Bobicus, who was begat by the illegitimate child of Zeus and Heracles' sister with his seamstress' sister-in-law. My grandfather knew someone who witnessed the sacking of Thebes, so therefore you should fear my spear and quake in fear!"

And, wordless, Achilles dispatched Tuberculosiscles with a swift spear to the tendon that connects the neck to the collarbone, leaving his teeth to bite down on the crumpled bronze spearhead, as his soul crawled out onto the sand towards Hades and his eyes darkened.

We can look to Homer for the answer!

Wilktone · by **Wilktone** » 2021-05-03 7:27 p.m.

I don't care who offers an idea, when it was said, what instrument they played, what genre of music they performed, what color their hair was, or even how good a player or teacher they are/were. Playing and teaching advice should stand on its own merit. Does it makes sense and can it be shown to be effective? I'm perfectly willing to criticize (and compliment) Jacobs (I've done both above), but I've also been known to do the same to Reinhardt (and others, including people involved in this conversation). And, for that matter, I'm willing to have a critical eye turned back on me. I'd rather have a heated discussion about a topic that hang out in an echo chamber.

One of the issues we have is that there's a tendency to separate things into teaching philosophies or "schools" of brass playing. While it can be helpful to label things in some ways to help us communicate broader concepts in fewer words, it also sometimes brings out our tribal nature. Criticism of one or two topics from our favorite pedagogue's method doesn't mean we have to radically change our whole approach. If our whole system of playing and teaching falls apart that easily, then perhaps that's for the good.

Returning to the topic of mouthpiece buzzing, I spent about 20 minutes today downloading a number of articles and papers that showed up on a college library search for mouthpiece buzzing. A lot of them are one person's recommendations and simply state mouthpiece buzzing is useful (or not) without offering any rational why (or why not). There are a small number that look more objectively at the topic. When I have time to read through them more carefully I'll report if I find anything interesting or helpful.

VJOFan · by **VJOFan** » 2021-05-03 8:12 p.m.

[quote="PosauneCat"]Those of you who do a lot of mouthpiece buzzing:

Do you think your mouthpiece placement and musculature is EXACTLY the same as when you are blowing through the horn?

Mike Coyle[/quote]

Everything is beneficially different. I can do things on the mouthpiece that inform what I want to do when inserting the mouthpiece into the lead pipe. I haven’t found a more effective way to promote air flow. I haven’t found a more effective way to improve my facility in the high range.

I didn’t like buzzing as a habitual part of my practice (sing it, buzz it , play it for example) but as a specific training for concentrated periods for a targeted outcome, it can be great.

baileyman · by **baileyman** » 2021-05-04 8:30 a.m.

[quote="harrisonreed"]<QUOTE author="baileyman" post_id="147713" time="1620039170" user_id="160">

Ask and you shall receive:

https://asa.scitation.org/doi/10.1121/1.424375

<LINK_TEXT text="https://www.researchgate.net/figure/The ... _228887506">https://www.researchgate.net/figure/The-artificial-lip-reed-player-not-to-scale_fig1_228887506</LINK_TEXT>

https://era.ed.ac.uk/handle/1842/13512[/quote]

Those experiments seem to include air in the mix though ... That's not what Jacobs was talking about. He mentioned no air and electrically stimulated vibration. Let's imagine .... Erm ... Two electric razors put together like lips and then turned on. They no doubt make a tone of some sort. Then you put those up against the mouthpiece of a horn like lips. According to Jacobs, the horn amplifies that and makes a tone with no air.

That is craziness
</QUOTE>

Some craziness:

<YOUTUBE id="WZvDvuxjHvU">https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=WZvDvuxjHvU</YOUTUBE>

BGuttman · by **BGuttman** » 2021-05-04 8:46 a.m.

Note that he's still using air to make the lips buzz. His contraption just prevents that air from going into the instrument. So he's still buzzing.

Very interesting clip, Baileyman, although I think I remember seeing it before.

Wilktone · by **Wilktone** » 2021-05-04 9:14 a.m.

I haven't been able to find any description, but I believe that there were some acoustical studies that used some sort of mechanical oscillator to produce tones on brass instruments and research the physics of the sound. You could produce a tone on the trombone by inhaling back against the lips and setting them to vibrate.

But the idea that the instrument is merely an amplifier isn't accurate. If that were so it would be played more like the mouthpiece buzzing, where any pitch could be buzzed.

I think it was briefly mentioned above that the mouthpiece also has an overtone series, but it's just very high and when we buzz on the mouthpiece we're well below the fundamental of the mouthpiece.

timothy42b · by **timothy42b** » 2021-05-04 9:49 a.m.

[quote="Wilktone"]I haven't been able to find any description, but I believe that there were some acoustical studies that used some sort of mechanical oscillator to produce tones on brass instruments and research the physics of the sound. You could produce a tone on the trombone by inhaling back against the lips and setting them to vibrate.
[/quote]

Impedance charts are done with a signal generator, a speaker attached to the horn, and a swept frequency signal input. At least in the old days, that's one way they were done. Sometimes the speaker went on the mouthpiece end, sometimes the bell end I think.

timothy42b · by **timothy42b** » 2021-05-04 9:52 a.m.

[quote="Wilktone"]

But the idea that the instrument is merely an amplifier isn't accurate. If that were so it would be played more like the mouthpiece buzzing, where any pitch could be buzzed.

[/quote]

Well, it would amplify those frequencies where the instrument's wind column had a resonance. But what Jacobs missed I think is that it also stabilizes the pitch. The reflection from the bell arrives at the correct time to assist the lips to close (if it's a pressure valley) or open (if a pressure peak).

baileyman · by **baileyman** » 2021-05-04 11:39 a.m.

[quote="timothy42b"]<QUOTE author="Wilktone" post_id="147798" time="1620134094" user_id="220">

But the idea that the instrument is merely an amplifier isn't accurate. If that were so it would be played more like the mouthpiece buzzing, where any pitch could be buzzed.

[/quote]

Well, it would amplify those frequencies where the instrument's wind column had a resonance. But what Jacobs missed I think is that it also stabilizes the pitch. The reflection from the bell arrives at the correct time to assist the lips to close (if it's a pressure valley) or open (if a pressure peak).
</QUOTE>

The exponential horn definitely emphasizes the standing wave pitches, but it does seem that it will act as a megaphone in-between. Buzzing between partials does seem to come out louder than free buzz, and I would suppose it's the impedance matching of the bell area that does that.

I have an old megaphone and it seems to do that coupling without much color. BTW, it sure is nice to hear some language that not just an emphatic guess.

harrisonreed · by **harrisonreed** » 2021-05-04 3:32 p.m.

[quote="baileyman"]<QUOTE author="harrisonreed" post_id="147715" time="1620041216" user_id="3642">

Those experiments seem to include air in the mix though ... That's not what Jacobs was talking about. He mentioned no air and electrically stimulated vibration. Let's imagine .... Erm ... Two electric razors put together like lips and then turned on. They no doubt make a tone of some sort. Then you put those up against the mouthpiece of a horn like lips. According to Jacobs, the horn amplifies that and makes a tone with no air.

That is craziness[/quote]

Some craziness:

<YOUTUBE id="WZvDvuxjHvU">https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=WZvDvuxjHvU</YOUTUBE>
</QUOTE>

Ok, yeah. You could put a trombone bell up to a phonograph and sound will go through it. It might even be amplified like a megaphone. You can buzz on a mouthpiece and then insert it into the leadpipe and some sort of sorry buzz sound will come out the other end.

Did you not hear how bad all the "notes" were that he played? I have never argued that a horn couldn't be used as a megaphone, but only that it shouldn't. The physics of how those sound/air waves compress into a tube to make a stable sound is why some horns sound a certain way and why some players sound really good. That video sounded pretty horrible, ("haha, now you can tongue way faster than your friends" :roll: ) and you can't be seriously citing this video as an example of not needing air to make music on brass...

It just muddies the water, honestly.

Doug_Elliott · by **Doug_Elliott** » 2021-05-04 4:30 p.m.

He's right: playing it in reverse sucks.

harrisonreed · by **harrisonreed** » 2021-05-04 7:42 p.m.

[quote="Doug Elliott"]He's right: playing it in reverse sucks.[/quote]

I see what you did...

Wait no.

I don't get it

( :lol: )

Kbiggs · by **Kbiggs** » 2021-05-05 12:39 p.m.

Here’s another view on buzzing:

<YOUTUBE id="aPXABWpao8M">https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=aPXABWpao8M</YOUTUBE>

Wilktone · by **Wilktone** » 2021-05-12 9:00 a.m.

[quote="Wilktone"]I spent about 20 minutes today downloading a number of articles and papers that showed up on a college library search for mouthpiece buzzing. A lot of them are one person's recommendations and simply state mouthpiece buzzing is useful (or not) without offering any rational why (or why not). There are a small number that look more objectively at the topic. When I have time to read through them more carefully I'll report if I find anything interesting or helpful.[/quote]

For what it's worth, I finally made my way through about 35 articles and papers (29 were actually relevant) looking for empirical evidence on the efficacy of mouthpiece buzzing.

There was a single paper that actually attempted to address this topic in a systematic way, Beghtol's dissertation that I posted about and linked to earlier in this thread, and that ended up coming down as mouthpiece buzzing being neutral (no effect compared between his study group and the control group). A handful of that literature attempted to address why mouthpiece buzzing is useful using some logical speculation, but a large number of them either assumed that it was effective or offered inaccurate assumptions.

Since Chris lamented that we're too often focused on pedagogy developed 50 years ago I restricted my search to things published since 2000. In spite of that limitation, several of the references I found use Arnold Jacobs as a primary resource or mirror his "song & wind" recommendations. Regardless of what you think about that pedagogical approach, it remains a huge influence on brass pedagogy today.

Assuming that Beghtol's literature review is comprehensive, it appears that no one has published (in English) anything prior to 2018 that attempts to empirically address the efficacy of mouthpiece buzzing. It appears that most opinions about it are either based on tradition or anecdotes, neither of which are a good way to truly address this topic.

If you want to see what papers and articles I read and read a a bit more of my thoughts I posted about it ~~[url=https://wilktone.com/?p=6722]~~here.

Dave

VJOFan · by **VJOFan** » 2021-05-12 6:37 p.m.

I read through the beginner brass mouthpiece buzzing study the previous time it was referenced.

I would love to see the study done with more advanced students. Is a beginner embouchure unable to benefit from training in the time period of the study?

Is there a third intervention that would outperform both buzzing and nothing?

Could the study be done for a longer time? I wonder if there is anything about the dose of buzzing that could change the outcome.

Pedagogical research is so tricky- I like to read papers on language instruction to figure out things about my teaching job, and often the studies have problematic aspects.

I also wonder if there has been little (no) quality research on buzzing because of the realities of studio teaching. A student is having a problem with a passage. The teacher prescribes buzzing. The problem with the passage disappears . To the teacher and the student buzzing worked. Why study it?

The problems referenced in this thread happen when a teacher tries it and it doesn’t work. Our faulty brains make the teacher cling to what worked for the last student. So it does need study but still no one is motivated to do it.

But the question I want to ask is not if buzzing works or not. Clearly it does and it does not.

The question I want to ask is why it works when it does? There is enough anecdotal evidence that something positive seems to happen for buzz lovers. When people perceive they have improved because of buzzing what happened? That would lead to an improved pedagogy.

baileyman · by **baileyman** » 2021-05-13 8:14 a.m.

Seems to me piece buzzing effectiveness may depend on how one changes pitches. If one uses chop strength to stiffen and loosen for different pitches, well, I suppose there is a muscular workout there to be had. Especially at around G three lines up where the harmonics of the piece intrude. But if one can tune the buzz with mouth volumes, it seems like piece work could be quite complementary. Especially doing repetitions of the same figure without horn, with horn, without horn, etc.

Wilktone · by **Wilktone** » 2021-05-13 8:28 a.m.

Yeah, we should be aware of the limitations of any study when trying to apply it to the general brass playing population, as well as our own situations and that of our studio. Beghtol's research was confined to beginners in 6th grade. The results could have been different if the test subjects were more experienced players, or even just older beginners. The experiment went over the course of 1 school year, which I think would be long enough to notice an effect if mouthpiece buzzing would be truly effective or detrimental, but then again, maybe the longer someone buzzes the greater the effect. A different mouthpiece buzzing routine might get different results. There's certainly room for more research on this topic (any grad students out there looking for a research topic?).

I find it encouraging that you are thinking skeptically about research, VJOFan. Some of the literature I read through for this project were exactly opposite. There was one paper in particular that cited some MRI research and made a pretty egregious assumption that it supported his position (I went to the JAMA article he cited and read some interviews to clarify and he was pretty far off).

As a rule, us music educators don't get training in research methodology (or critical thinking) to the same degree that our colleagues in other fields often do. As a result, I've found that when we take a critical look at some of our traditional methods we find a remarkable lack of evidence for why we do things the way we do. That doesn't necessarily make them wrong, but our assumptions about why they're right can be way off.

PosauneCat · by **PosauneCat** » 2021-05-24 5:38 p.m.

One of the worst videos I've ever seen. I don't know what he thinks he's proving.

[quote="harrisonreed"]<QUOTE author="baileyman" post_id="147795" time="1620131416" user_id="160">

Some craziness:

<YOUTUBE id="WZvDvuxjHvU">https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=WZvDvuxjHvU</YOUTUBE>[/quote]

Ok, yeah. You could put a trombone bell up to a phonograph and sound will go through it. It might even be amplified like a megaphone. You can buzz on a mouthpiece and then insert it into the leadpipe and some sort of sorry buzz sound will come out the other end.

Did you not hear how bad all the "notes" were that he played? I have never argued that a horn couldn't be used as a megaphone, but only that it shouldn't. The physics of how those sound/air waves compress into a tube to make a stable sound is why some horns sound a certain way and why some players sound really good. That video sounded pretty horrible, ("haha, now you can tongue way faster than your friends" :roll: ) and you can't be seriously citing this video as an example of not needing air to make music on brass...

It just muddies the water, honestly.
</QUOTE>

Wilktone · by **Wilktone** » 2021-05-26 8:50 a.m.

[quote="PosauneCat"]One of the worst videos I've ever seen. I don't know what he thinks he's proving.[/quote]

It's just a demonstration of physics, not a technique video. It shows how the standing wave inside a brass instrument can be excited without needing to actually blow air through the instrument.

Personally, I find it fascinating. There might not be any immediate application to how I play and teach there, but it's always a good thing to better understand the way the world really works.

baileyman · by **baileyman** » 2021-05-26 10:09 a.m.

Thanks for that, Dave.

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