Burtis book: Time, Balance and Connections

PosauneCat · 2021-06-05 12:38 p.m.

Anybody familiar with this book? I read a 4-page thread about the ideas in the book, originally posted by Sam, on the trumpet forum and it turned ugly, downright vitriolic! It was posted with the title “ I have finally broken the embouchure code.” His ideas are nebulous and presented as new age, pseudo-zen babble so I get why people reacted so strongly. It has nothing to do with “breaking the embouchure code,” so of course folks looking for help felt conned. What was most upsetting though was Sam’s remarkably arrogant and immature responses. I was interested in the book until I read all that. Is there anything of practical value in it or is it all faux-spiritual nonsense?

I read the introduction to the book and I also found it pretty flighty and shrouded in pointless mystery. It was like a poor man’s Ram Dass, but with trombones! :-)

If you haven’t read the thread in the Trumpet Herald, here it is: <LINK_TEXT text="https://www.trumpetherald.com/forum/vie ... e3c678cd38">https://www.trumpetherald.com/forum/viewtopic.php?t=90051&postdays=0&postorder=asc&start=0&sid=36c61121693f31388e2e3de3c678cd38</LINK_TEXT>

It’s kind of an embarrassing Giuliani-like rant. I was surprised and disappointed as I think Sam is generally a good guy and a great player. When you present your ideas in a general and confused way and people don’t get it, whose fault is it?

Anyway…is it of value but just poorly represented by Sam’s own words, or it is a diamond in the rough?

Mike

By the way, new age should be spelled newage, just like sewage.

Bach5G · 2021-06-05 2:01 p.m.

Sam Burtis.

I have it but don’t refer to it very often.

hyperbolica · by **hyperbolica** » 2021-06-05 2:55 p.m.

Sabutin has been a fixture in the online trombone world for years, maybe decades. He has always had a bit of that NYC over-confidence.

One of his favorite aphorisms that I thought was pointless nonsense was "play everything keep what works". I guess if you have access to everything, that makes sense, but I don't know anyone with that kind of access.

Sam thinks of himself as a visionary like a few of the real deal that we know here. I never really saw it, but some did.

I never read the book. I was never convinced I needed what he was selling. He advocated some odd stuff I could never see myself getting into like throat singing. I'm sure he's 10x the musician that I am, and maybe that's why I just have never been able to relate to Sabutin. Whether he's a prophet or a crank is for someone else to decide.

PosauneCat · by **PosauneCat** » 2021-06-05 3:39 p.m.

[quote="Bach5G"]Sam Burtis.

I have it but don’t refer to it very often.[/quote]

Thanks. Fixed the typo.

BGuttman · by **BGuttman** » 2021-06-05 4:54 p.m.

I'm pretty sure we had a discussion of this book on The Trombone Forum. I don't know if the thread was part of what Matt brought here. It wasn't as vitriolic as the Trumpet thread -- trumpeters seem to be a bit more high-strung.

Sam has his own ideas and some are good; some are not. He dips heavily into the "Six Notes" regimen.

timothy42b · by **timothy42b** » 2021-06-05 5:05 p.m.

I have his first book, the American Trombone, based on the Caruso approach but with his own slant. It was helpful to a point but for me the Reinhardt approach was more understandable. Still there are methods for altering exercises that don't show up other places.

I haven't read the second one, I probably should, but there's too little time in the day, too little time in the year. I'm sure i wouldn't alter my practice this late in the game but there is probably interesting stuff there.

As far as the ugliness on trumpet herald goes, that is years ago and IMO best forgotten. (Judging by FB posts Sam has mellowed considerably over the years. Don't tell him I said so.)

harrisonreed · by **harrisonreed** » 2021-06-05 8:12 p.m.

He hit on something with his throat singing. A very complex way of discovering the impact of your tongue shape on the sound.

Watching the MRI videos of Doug Yeo and Sarah Willis gets you there and experimenting much faster, without the weird noises.

Sam's way is more advanced in that the actual throat overtones can be isolated without playing the horn, and those directly correlate with the pitch and tone quality you are going for. You can actually hear your oral cavity, which is wild.

I think he hit on this after his book was published.

PosauneCat · by **PosauneCat** » 2021-06-05 10:03 p.m.

[quote="timothy42b"]I have his first book, the American Trombone, based on the Caruso approach but with his own slant. It was helpful to a point but for me the Reinhardt approach was more understandable. Still there are methods for altering exercises that don't show up other places.

I haven't read the second one, I probably should, but there's too little time in the day, too little time in the year. I'm sure i wouldn't alter my practice this late in the game but there is probably interesting stuff there.

As far as the ugliness on trumpet herald goes, that is years ago and IMO best forgotten. (Judging by FB posts Sam has mellowed considerably over the years. Don't tell him I said so.)[/quote]

Good to hear!

PosauneCat · by **PosauneCat** » 2021-06-05 10:08 p.m.

[quote="harrisonreed"]He hit on something with his throat singing. A very complex way of discovering the impact of your tongue shape on the sound.

Watching the MRI videos of Doug Yeo and Sarah Willis gets you there and experimenting much faster, without the weird noises.

Sam's way is more advanced in that the actual throat overtones can be isolated without playing the horn, and those directly correlate with the pitch and tone quality you are going for. You can actually hear your oral cavity, which is wild.

I think he hit on this after his book was published.[/quote]

I can see that being very helpful. Learning to control the tongue and mouth cavity in that way would probably help trombone playing in many ways, but I think there are more direct routes to it. There’s a level of abstraction to Sam’s ideas that makes them less accessible. It’s unnecessarily obtuse.

harrisonreed · by **harrisonreed** » 2021-06-05 11:01 p.m.

There's only one Sam Burtis, is all I can say.

PosauneCat · by **PosauneCat** » 2021-06-05 11:43 p.m.

[quote="harrisonreed"]There's only one Sam Burtis, is all I can say.[/quote]

Ain’t that the truth!

Rusty · by **Rusty** » 2021-06-06 6:07 a.m.

[quote="hyperbolica"]One of his favorite aphorisms that I thought was pointless nonsense was "play everything keep what works". I guess if you have access to everything, that makes sense, but I don't know anyone with that kind of access.[/quote]

As far as gear is concerned, he’s easily been one of the most helpful people for me personally on the forums and fb. He’s played at the highest level over a long career in NYC and doubles on everything at that level from Tuba to power lead trombone.

His actual saying is “Try everything, use what works”. Seems pretty sensible advise to me. He advocates for borrowing from section mates or colleagues, going to shops to play, and finding out from those more knowledgeable about different gear and setups that may be around what you think would work. I know personally, this advise has helped me narrow my equipment selection on each of my horns. Sam’s comments and willingness to discuss different mouthpieces or combinations of horn/mouthpiece from experience in the trenches has directly helped me make far more informed decisions.

He’s tried everything under the sun and is extremely knowledgeable. It beats taking advice from some of the usual suspects on the forum that seem to speak gospel on many topics but are lacking in any real world experience or playing at a level where there’s real pressure to sound a certain way or be able to do certain things.

I’ve liked his material covering some of the Caruso stuff, but found his book, while interesting, a little too in depth for me to use practically.

Wilktone · by **Wilktone** » 2021-06-06 8:44 a.m.

I don't have this book, but I do own "The American Trombone" and over the years have read much of what he's posted online about his ideas. From what I gather "Time, Balance, and Connections" is going to delve deeper into analogy and have a more "mystical" tone than "The American Trombone."

The problem I have with the "try everything and use what works" approach is that it leaves it up to the student to figure out where to start and when to leave stuff behind. It's sort of like throwing spaghetti on the wall - sure, some things will stick, but you're still going to have to clean up a mess afterwards. My practice time is limited, so I don't want to spend time trying out things that I'm going to abandon later.

Hickeys has some excerpts of the book available if you want to check it out:

<LINK_TEXT text="https://www.hickeys.com/music/text_and_ ... ctions.php">https://www.hickeys.com/music/text_and_trade_books/books_about_instruments/trombone/products/sku076987-burtis-sam-time-balanceconnections.php</LINK_TEXT>

Sam used to have a web site with its own forum, but it doesn't appear to be up any longer. I imagine that if you poke around you should be able to find an email for him and he is on Facebook if you want to hunt for him there. He's usually pretty accessible and would be more than happy to discuss this book with you if you asked.

Dave

timothy42b · by **timothy42b** » 2021-06-06 9:54 a.m.

I bought his first book when it came out, and while the content is good it has the appearance of a self published or vanity type book. The production values - printing, illustrations, cover, paper, etc. are pretty low and don't compete with the slick publications everybody else does.

I talked with him about that and told him I thought he would be better received if he made it more commercial/professional. He said he really wanted to keep the price point where it was rather than do a more traditional printing.

ArbanRubank · by **ArbanRubank** » 2021-06-06 10:05 a.m.

Sam was a breath of fresh air; entertaining, if nothing else.

Wilktone · by **Wilktone** » 2021-06-06 10:27 a.m.

[quote="ArbanRubank"]Sam was a breath of fresh air; entertaining, if nothing else.[/quote]

Only if you weren't on the receiving end.

ArbanRubank · by **ArbanRubank** » 2021-06-06 11:05 a.m.

He's not here on this forum now. You're safe.

Wilktone · by **Wilktone** » 2021-06-06 1:02 p.m.

*phew* That's a relief!

But seriously, in the past he has often gone after folks with particular relish, whether or not they deserved it (~~[url=http://web.archive.org/web/20121231062402/http://tromboneforum.org/index.php/topic,65273.0.html]~~or if he had any particular disagreement). The TH post referenced in by PosauneCat was quite common for how he used to communicate.

That said, he is a member of a Facebook group I administer and he has always been perfectly respectful there. I think if you're curious about his book he should be accessible on Facebook and would probably be more than happy to discuss it more with you. As a rule, successful professional musicians don't make a living by being hard to get in touch with, so if you're interested in reaching him you should be able to.

If you connect with a more analogy-driven, mystical approach then you might find a lot in this book that clicks with you. If not, then you might not find the $70 price tag worth it.

Dave

Bach5G · by **Bach5G** » 2021-06-06 1:22 p.m.

“try everything and use what works” = trial and error. Nothing profound there. With Sabutin, there was also an element in his advice of not blindly accepting conventional wisdom but rather finding what works for you.

Jimkinkella · by **Jimkinkella** » 2021-06-06 1:39 p.m.

I've got the book.

It's kind of interesting, what I do like about it is that there area number of things presented differently than I'm used to.

And with a lot of commentary it helped me kill a lot of time on cross-country flights.

I've worked with a number of people that studied with Remington and his students, so I've become very familiar with certain approaches to things.

Sam looks at at a bunch of things differently, definitely has his own way of presenting them, and has some "interesting" ideas of his own.

Is it a diamond in the rough?

Probably not, but it's got some interesting exercises and ideas.

If you've got some extra budget and some time to kill, it might be worth it.

If you like Sam's personality and way of talking about things you'll like it, if not, then you won't.

imsevimse · by **imsevimse** » 2021-06-06 2:41 p.m.

"Try everythinhmg, use what works" is exactly what made the difference. The moment when I begun to experiment was when I started to develop for real. Some teachers claim they have all the answers and want their students to do as they are told and some teachers give you different approaches and alternatives. Some encourage you to try and find your path after giving you advice. I prefer this way of learning. At some point you need to be your own teacher and the sooner the better, but you'd better be a good one or else you will not be a very good player. Nothing wrong with taking advice from everybody and try and keep what works for you.

"Try everything and use what works" is the best advice he gave.

/Tom

Jimprindle · by **Jimprindle** » 2021-06-06 6:45 p.m.

I always respected his advice on the trombone bulletin board and the old Trombone Forum. What I did not respect was his vicious attacks on anybody who did not totally agree with him, including myself.

I laughed at his comment that his foot tapping was his conductor. Just joking, he could not take the joke. He viciously attacked me and anyone who would disagree with him. That is why I stopped regarding him as a helpful mentor.

I believe he is a very successful musician in New York, and I know good people who have said he is a very nice guy. But I have not seen that in his posts on Internet forums. He is argumentative and disrespectful to others. I am glad to not have any more contact with him at all.

I bought his first book It was useless to me and went to rubbish. Maybe other people liked it.

But I wish him success with his teaching and his playing.

ArbanRubank · by **ArbanRubank** » 2021-06-06 7:42 p.m.

The best musical advice I received in the past several years came from two sources and one of them was Sam. Simply stated, put your foot on the beat and put your articulation on your foot. Simple. Basic. 101 stuff. But when I really, really concentrated on doing just that, my timing improved 1000%. I believe it's a premise in his book. Thank you Sam!

FWIT's worth, something like that was also mentioned by Frank Rosolino in a master class viewable on YouTube, I think.

Wilktone · by **Wilktone** » 2021-06-06 7:55 p.m.

Conversations that stray into the broad areas that this topic has done remind me of two things:

1. That playing trombone is an inherently knacky skill. No one can reach inside your mouthpiece or lungs and perfectly direct you where you should be going. There is a certain degree of personal experimentation that must happen for success. But good teachers have good reasons for why they give the specific advice they do, and that can keep us from spinning our wheels so much. Trying everything is a waste of time. Trying things that are more likely to help first are a better use of our time.

2. If we were to have conversations in the real word, face to face, we would almost certainly get along a whole lot better.

OK, three things:

3. I, myself, have written some things online (and said some things in person) that were not very well thought out. I've regretted some of them and will definitely regret some things I write and say in the future. I hope that the people I've offended or upset will forgive me and will strive to do the same to those that have done that to me.

Dave

harrisonreed · by **harrisonreed** » 2021-06-06 8:40 p.m.

[quote="ArbanRubank"]The best musical advice I received in the past several years came from two sources and one of them was Sam. Simply stated, put your foot on the beat and put your articulation on your foot. Simple. Basic. 101 stuff. But when I really, really concentrated on doing just that, my timing improved 1000%. I believe it's a premise in his book. Thank you Sam!

FWIT's worth, something like that was also mentioned by Frank Rosolino in a master class viewable on YouTube, I think.[/quote]

I never understood snobs poh-pohing (oh yeah, Latin class) tapping your foot to the beat (I get it if it makes noise), or touching/measuring the bell with your fingers. I'm my mind these aren't bad habits at all.

Feeling the beat with your body and gauging physically how far the pitch has shifted from the Ab you tuned to (ie the bell) is extremely valuable information to me when I'm playing.

ArbanRubank · by **ArbanRubank** » 2021-06-06 9:32 p.m.

There may be some venues where they don't want that visual - of all the players tapping away.

I find it very difficult to tap out slow tempi, say 6/8 time in 2 with 70-80 bpm or so. I'll set the metronome at twice that speed to get both feet going and play the 6/8 in 6! So I guess I won't be playing in the above venues I mentioned any time soon!

robcat2075 · by **robcat2075** » 2021-06-09 11:12 a.m.

[quote="PosauneCat"]...an embarrassing Giuliani-like rant...[/quote]

He was ranting like Giuliani before ranting like Giuliani ranting was cool.

A prophet among us.

hyperbolica · by **hyperbolica** » 2021-06-09 11:27 a.m.

[quote="harrisonreed"]<QUOTE author="ArbanRubank" post_id="150209" time="1623022959" user_id="4907">
The best musical advice I received in the past several years came from two sources and one of them was Sam. Simply stated, put your foot on the beat and put your articulation on your foot. Simple. Basic. 101 stuff. But when I really, really concentrated on doing just that, my timing improved 1000%. I believe it's a premise in his book. Thank you Sam!

FWIT's worth, something like that was also mentioned by Frank Rosolino in a master class viewable on YouTube, I think.[/quote]

I never understood snobs poh-pohing (oh yeah, Latin class) tapping your foot to the beat (I get it if it makes noise), or touching/measuring the bell with your fingers. I'm my mind these aren't bad habits at all.

Feeling the beat with your body and gauging physically how far the pitch has shifted from the Ab you tuned to (ie the bell) is extremely valuable information to me when I'm playing.
</QUOTE>

In classical styles, you don't tap you feet partially because it distracts the audience and it's just considered amateurish. In pop styles it's ok, even expected. They want you to move to the music, which is part of it. But I can't tell you how many times I had to close one eye to avoid seeing some saxophone player's foot tapping behind the beat or doing something else altogether unfathomable. I think this is the big reason to disallow it, not the elevation of your nose. I prefer to internalize the feel of the bass drum. That eliminates one possible source of error.

The first audition I ever took for an orchestra, I was the first player on the list. The one big comment I got on my Bolero was "don't tap your foot". I was behind a screen, so they obviously heard me tapping happily along, probably out of a practice room habit or nerves or something. So yeah, during an audition, DON'T TAP YOUR FOOT.

Touching the bell is something else. I've always been told not to do that, but watch youtube, and pros, even big time pros do it all the time. I definitely do it to gauge and fine tune certain notes. I do try not to "ting" the bell with the fingernail in fast passages, that's back to amateurish.

Doug_Elliott · by **Doug_Elliott** » 2021-06-09 11:44 a.m.

The big problem with foot tapping (especially in a group) is that it reinforces your own concept of time and/or tempo, whether it's right or wrong. Playing with good pitch and time often means adjusting to others - in both cases. You're not always right. Unless you're the bandleader.

Kbiggs · by **Kbiggs** » 2021-06-09 1:02 p.m.

I tap my toe, and I watch other people’s feet. More importantly, I listen and adjust (like Doug just said).

robcat2075 · by **robcat2075** » 2021-06-09 2:49 p.m.

I feel like I can play a slightly longer phrase if I'm not tapping my foot because I'm using less oxygen to move those muscles. I feel that way but it's probably a completely imaginary notion.

Foot-tapping becomes a problem on those portable Wenger risers. My high school had a rehearsal room with permanent, poured-in-concrete risers covered with carpet so you never heard much of foot taping during rehearsals.

But out on the auditorium stage on the temp risers it's amplified like a drum. In the rare quiet passages of anything we played it sounded like a troop marching by.

Thrump-thrump-thrump-thrump...

Vegasbound · by **Vegasbound** » 2021-06-09 3:25 p.m.

The book must be Sam's magnum opus, his journey of discovery distilled down into the book hence his defence and passion for it

He did study with Carmine Caruso, hence the foot tapping

I bought the book when he first mentioned it on trombone forum, it is a weighty tome, and if honest made my head hurt!

Kdanielsen · by **Kdanielsen** » 2021-06-09 3:29 p.m.

I tap my foot, but I don’t stomp it. Mostly i tap my toe inside my shoe.

Vegasbound · by **Vegasbound** » 2021-06-09 3:33 p.m.

Oh and his saying is ' try everything, use what works for you!'

Savio · by **Savio** » 2021-06-10 3:17 a.m.

I have that book but have not read it much. In fact I have lot of books but do not use them much. Maybe on time I do. The little I read from that particular book is much about to be in time with your self. I foot tap sometimes but also try to develop my inner time machine. To let my brain be like a little drum machine. Dont know if it helps but let us say playing half notes I try to think the eight notes inside. What help me is also to just think music because I then feel the timing fall better in place without thinking much about it.

Anyway the book is lot about really be in time with your self. Synchronize all movements like air, tongue slide etc. Like the title say; time, balance and connect. I think I have to look more into it. As with all methods out there its best to really go deep into them and try to understand. I feel with my self Im a little sinner there......

Leif

ArbanRubank · by **ArbanRubank** » 2021-06-10 6:50 a.m.

Internal time keeping is fine - if you really can do it! I thought I could, until I started being super-strict with using my foot to tap out and sub-divide. Then I realized just how off my internal timing had been. Maybe I can get back to a place where I can rely on internal timing, but I clearly see now that it has to be re-trained.

Bach5G · by **Bach5G** » 2021-06-10 11:56 a.m.

All this talk about time. You think you have good time? Try this: metronome and recording device required.

Wayne Krantz: <YOUTUBE id="RuZoIWObnyE">https://youtu.be/RuZoIWObnyE</YOUTUBE>

hyperbolica · by **hyperbolica** » 2021-06-10 12:25 p.m.

Conventional wisdom with tuning and time is "listen". And that's great advice. But it's reactive. You can't fix anything until you've done it wrong, heard it and analyzed it. You need something better than that. Something predictive rather than simply reactive. That's why you need internal time to get you in the neighborhood of the time of the rest of the group. You still have to adjust/react, but the adjustments are smaller. Same with tuning. Tuning should be primarily muscle memory, and secondarily reaction to what you hear. You can't play in tune on the down beat by listening. Maybe a second after the downbeat. Plus, if you're reacting, maybe someone else is also reacting, and their change counters your change. The more you can internalize pitch and time, the better.

mwpfoot · by **mwpfoot** » 2021-06-10 1:04 p.m.

Many of our materials are laid out like cookbooks. This one is a long form culinary essay. Instead of tips and tricks and exercises, it advocates a lifestyle.

I recently took it off the shelf and I am enjoying a slow read of it a second time. Some of it clicks and some of it is beyond me (nothing new). I haven't gone ALL IN on the approach that he reveals yet. I'm still enjoying "listening" to a real player describe his unique approach to it all. It's fascinating.

:idk:

ArbanRubank · by **ArbanRubank** » 2021-06-10 1:07 p.m.

[quote="Bach5G"]All this talk about time. You think you have good time? Try this: metronome and recording device required.

Wayne Krantz: <YOUTUBE id="RuZoIWObnyE">https://youtu.be/RuZoIWObnyE</YOUTUBE>[/quote]

I guess I'll have to take up guitar. Maybe they sell metronomes that work well with guitar, b/c I haven't found one yet to work well with trombone. :pant:

Bach5G · by **Bach5G** » 2021-06-10 2:27 p.m.

[quote="ArbanRubank"]<QUOTE author="Bach5G" post_id="150484" time="1623340578" user_id="2999">
All this talk about time. You think you have good time? Try this: metronome and recording device required.

Wayne Krantz: <YOUTUBE id="RuZoIWObnyE">https://youtu.be/RuZoIWObnyE</YOUTUBE>[/quote]

I guess I'll have to take up guitar. Maybe they sell metronomes that work well with guitar, b/c I haven't found one yet to work well with trombone. :pant:
</QUOTE>

Time is time.

ArbanRubank · by **ArbanRubank** » 2021-06-11 4:20 p.m.

Time is relevant. All sub-divisions are created equal, but some of them are a lot more equal than others. Since I have the accuracy of a nuclear clock, I can detect extremely small incremental variations in digital metronomes. That, coupled with my acute hearing to be able to hear +- .001 Hz reeks havoc with me in an imperfect universe.

But I'll give Sam credit for putting his foot down on timing, literally. Someone should do a study on foot types and how they impact playing. Maybe one type will have the foot tapping slightly off to the right. Maybe as the tempo increases, the foot will have to pivot somehow.

Wilktone · by **Wilktone** » 2021-06-12 9:28 a.m.

Practicing with good time is great. Everyone should do it. Some of us need it more than others. But I've found that it's like playing with good intonation or good tone - the musicians that are really good at it spent (and continue to spend) time working on it regularly.

Tapping your foot and subdividing the beat is a fine way to practice. There are some limitations to it, as have already been pointed out. One that I don't recall having been mentioned so far is that you can end up reinforcing an issue in your playing mechanics but just get better at doing that in time (e.g., hesitation on the initial attack causing the air to be bottled up). But I think as long as you're aware of the limitations there's nothing wrong with that practice approach.

It's good to have an open mind, but you don't need to try "everything." Start with things that are more plausible first and get a good teacher to guide you, especially if you don't have the experience to judge for yourself what's credible and what smells like snake oil.

Sam Burtis wrote a number of articles on the Online Trombone Journal. When the OTJ rebooted all the authors were reached out to and asked to update their contact info. If you're curious to learn more about Sam's ideas and his book you can read the articles and also get to the OTJ's contact form to reach him here:

https://www.trombone.org/about/authors.php?id=27

Dave

imsevimse · by **imsevimse** » 2021-06-12 9:42 a.m.

[quote="Wilktone"]Practicing with good time is great. Everyone should do it. Some of us need it more than others. But I've found that it's like playing with good intonation or good tone - the musicians that are really good at it spent (and continue to spend) time working on it regularly.

Tapping your foot and subdividing the beat is a fine way to practice. There are some limitations to it, as have already been pointed out. One that I don't recall having been mentioned so far is that you can end up reinforcing an issue in your playing mechanics but just get better at doing that in time (e.g., hesitation on the initial attack causing the air to be bottled up). But I think as long as you're aware of the limitations there's nothing wrong with that practice approach.

It's good to have an open mind, but you don't need to try "everything." Start with things that are more plausible first and get a good teacher to guide you, especially if you don't have the experience to judge for yourself what's credible and what smells like snake oil.

Sam Burtis wrote a number of articles on the Online Trombone Journal. When the OTJ rebooted all the authors were reached out to and asked to update their contact info. If you're curious to learn more about Sam's ideas and his book you can read the articles and also get to the OTJ's contact form to reach him here:

https://www.trombone.org/about/authors.php?id=27

Dave[/quote]
I do not think "try everything, use what works" literally was meant you should try everything. If someone suggested I should stand on my head and play I do not think Sam meant that could be something to try. I think that expression just means "experiment a little and see if it helps". I only try what makes sense and then I might experiment a little with that, and if things gets easier I use it. I do not spend a tremendous amount of time to force somethings that does not do any good. I did do ONE such big change that turned everything upside down and that was when I abandoned my smile emboushure to build a puckered emboushure. I never regretted that decision, but it took time and I lost everything I had and gave all in to learn something completely different. It can be what has to be done and then you can not try alot of those game changing things. You can not try literally EVERYTHING because there is not enough time. To me "Try everything and use what works" just tells me to use common sense. Listen to advice and respect people who want to help but do not follow blindfold. You need to be smart. Sometimes you should follow and sometimes you should not. It's like everything in life.

/Tom

ArbanRubank · by **ArbanRubank** » 2021-06-12 10:26 a.m.

Tom beat me to it. I think that is actually the spirit or essence of Sam's teachings.

Everything in the world has a "well, but" attached to it. Timing is no exception and Wilktone pointed out a very good "well, but" to it. I'm sure there can be plenty of "well but" concerns with the Rienhardt System if it is looked at objectively. One "well but" I can think of is not to pick up his book, read it and then think you are a self-diagnosing expert at it.

Wilktone · by **Wilktone** » 2021-06-12 1:37 p.m.

Tom and ArbanRubank,

Sure, we should allow for hyperbole in order to make a point. Well, but...

It's important for a musician to know how and when to experiment. It's one thing for a highly experienced player who has taken decades of lessons from great teachers to mess around with stuff. It's another for someone to experiment with things and do it in a way that works against their playing. A lot of players get better at playing wrong.

I'll also mention from my personal experience that it's often very hard to objectively judge if what you're doing is really working for you. I still catch lessons from time to time and still find them useful. It's hard to analyze your own playing, so it's often good to hook up with someone you trust to check things out.

Dave

baileyman · by **baileyman** » 2021-06-14 11:37 a.m.

Sam is just about the most sincere guy I've ever met. A real super student, and he basically gives it all away for free. Some things work for some people, and I suppose not everything he comes up with works for any single person, but some of it just knocks my socks off.

Some time ago he came to my house and did a free clinic for a bunch of the local guys. He expected nothing. But I paid him anyway. A real super fellow. People should treasure guys like him.

stjones · by **stjones** » 2021-06-26 3:00 p.m.

[quote="Kdanielsen"]I tap my foot, but I don’t stomp it. Mostly i tap my toe inside my shoe.[/quote]

FWIW, when I was in college I heard Rudolf Serkin play Beethoven's Emperor Concerto with the Philadelphia Orchestra. I was sitting in the "loft" (amphitheater = cheap tickets). When he got into the final movement, he stomped the floor so loudly at the beginning of each triplet phrase that it was clearly audible where I sat. On the one hand, he was Rudolf Serkin, so he could do anything he damn well pleased. On the other, he apparently was unaware that classical musicians do not tap their feet.

robcat2075 · by **robcat2075** » 2021-06-26 4:50 p.m.

Presenting such a vague and obviously over-broad aphorism as if it were a learned insight is working against the wish to be taken very, very seriously and unquestioningly.

It's a contradiction that is going to get noticed.

harrisonreed · by **harrisonreed** » 2021-06-26 7:09 p.m.

[quote="robcat2075"]Presenting such a vague and obviously over-broad aphorism as if it were a learned insight is working against the wish to be taken very, very seriously and unquestioningly.

It's a contradiction that is going to get noticed.[/quote]

It worked for Miyamoto Musashi. Then again, if you disagreed with him, he would just beat you to death with a boat oar, but still.

btone · by **btone** » 2021-06-28 4:56 p.m.

Say what you want to about Sam, I always enjoyed his posts on the Trombone Forum because they were thought-provoking and contained information I found interesting and often useful. I place value on the opinions of someone who is versatile and accomplished, sometimes just for giving me a window into how they think about what they do. If some people don't think outside the box the norm can become very stale; like a gene pool without the benefit of random mutation and genetic diversity. Free speech serves a like function in society. If we don't agree with somebody that doesn't make it our job to denounce them, even if that is in vogue on the internet these days. That practice smacks a bit too much of Maoist China and the French Revolution. Should we not show a little charity to other trombone players? Some say if you can't think of something nice to say about someone you should just say "bless their heart" or say nothing. That may be a stretch for some. Of course it's okay to disagree with someone in a discussion; but not to talk about them disrespectfully in their absence. IMO. If you don't agree with something you don't have to implement it. Listen to anything you care to and use or retain what makes sense. That is the purpose of a personal BS meter, IMHO.

ArbanRubank · by **ArbanRubank** » 2021-06-28 6:00 p.m.

:good:

robcat2075 · by **robcat2075** » 2021-06-28 6:09 p.m.

[quote="btone"]...Maoist China and the French Revolution.[/quote]

I'm pretty sure no one has been sent to the guillotine.

We're just doubting some doubtful directions in a book.

I'm also pretty sure his career won't be impeded one bit by anything said on this forum. We spent pages grousing about Massimo La-what's-his-name and he still has more of a career going than anyone here.

harrisonreed · by **harrisonreed** » 2021-06-28 6:14 p.m.

[quote="robcat2075"]Presenting such a vague and obviously over-broad aphorism as if it were a learned insight is working against the wish to be taken very, very seriously and unquestioningly.

It's a contradiction that is going to get noticed.[/quote]

It worked for Sun Tzu. Then again, of you disagreed with him, he would just surround your army on three sides and give you the illusion of an escape, and destroy you as you tried to retreat.

I think Sam has a very old-school Eastern take on teaching. That doesn't resonate with a lot of Euro-Mericans or people in the 21st century in general.

ArbanRubank · by **ArbanRubank** » 2021-06-29 6:45 a.m.

[quote="harrisonreed"]

It worked for Sun Tzu. Then again, of you disagreed with him, he would just surround your army on three sides and give you the illusion of an escape, and destroy you as you tried to retreat.

I think Sam has a very old-school Eastern take on teaching. That doesn't resonate with a lot of Euro-Mericans or people in the 21st century in general.[/quote]

Exactly! Zen And The Art Of Trombone Playing. Way too cerebral for most.

timothy42b · by **timothy42b** » 2021-06-29 7:30 a.m.

[quote="btone"]Some say if you can't think of something nice to say about someone you should just say "bless their heart" or say nothing. That may be a stretch for some. Of course it's okay to disagree with someone in a discussion; but not to talk about them disrespectfully in their absence.[/quote]

There's some history here you're unaware of and I'd rather not dredge up. But in the past it was not unusual for a conversation with him to become vicious rather quickly.

This particular thread has some people with disagreements, but relatively politely, wouldn't you say?

Bach5G · by **Bach5G** » 2021-06-29 8:14 a.m.

“ I think Sam has a very old-school Eastern take on teaching.”

Perhaps you can elaborate?

harrisonreed · by **harrisonreed** » 2021-06-29 8:31 a.m.

[quote="Bach5G"]“ I think Sam has a very old-school Eastern take on teaching.”

Perhaps you can elaborate?[/quote]

Just watch any of his videos. His book is self-styled as "zen".

Bach5G · by **Bach5G** » 2021-06-29 8:57 a.m.

I’ve got his TB&C book and watched some of his videos. I’ve attended an informal masterclass he gave, asked questions, and had a brief lesson with him. I drove him to the airport.

What part of his teaching do you think resembles Zen? Or “a very old-school Eastern take” on teaching?

btone · by **btone** » 2021-06-29 10:44 a.m.

I posted because I was uncomfortable that Sam seemed to be getting a drubbing from several people while he was not a party to the thread to defend himself. He is a unique voice and I'm sorry he is not part of this forum. I almost went back and edited to to cede the fact that he may have brought some of it on himself by some past combative posts. I also almost edited out the thing about communist China and revolutionary France in an effort to not be offensive but that was not aimed at anyone on the thread. It was just a societal concern, trying to discourage anything that smacked of the internet age brand of mob justice, and I wanted to encourage trombone players to cut each other some slack. I do feel like a comradery based on mutual interest should be exhibited in our forum and I'm hoping we can pick up more members to make this an interesting place. I really got a lot out of the old trombone forum, except for the political threads that got combative ,and I really would like to see more experienced players not be hesitant to post. We can all learn from each other. Remember that people should be able to post without being afraid that someone is going to take them to task. Being right is often overrated.

harrisonreed · by **harrisonreed** » 2021-06-29 6:41 p.m.

[quote="Bach5G"]I’ve got his TB&C book and watched some of his videos. I’ve attended an informal masterclass he gave, asked questions, and had a brief lesson with him. I drove him to the airport.

What part of his teaching do you think resembles Zen? Or “a very old-school Eastern take” on teaching?[/quote]

Sure:

Sam Burtis:

"A note is just a very fast tempo. …a tempo is just a very slow note.

Now do we perceive that tempo as a note? No. Of course not.

Why? We are not big enough. Not slow enough.

Think on it

....

After you are well into this process, it is my hope that you will begin see your instrument and indeed music itself in a whole

new light.

Be patient. Nothing truly new comes easily or quickly. But it is there for the taking if you have the proper aim.

I leave you with a Zen saying that encapsulates the entire learning process as it is encountered in any and all real

endeavours:

Before Zen, a tree is just a tree.

During Zen, everything is confused.

After Zen, a tree is once again a tree. Only different."

Miyamoto Musashi:

"Truth is not what you want it to be; it is what it is, and you must bend to its power or live a lie.

Think lightly of yourself and deeply of the world

Even if you strive diligently on your chosen path day after day, if your heart is not in accord with it, then even if you think you are on a good path, from the point of view of the straight and true, this is not a genuine path. If you do not pursue a genuine path to its consummation, then a little bit of crookedness in the mind will later turn into a major warp.

Reflect on this."

I don't know what to tell you, man, but I see no reason to jump through any more hoops for you over Sam's obvious writing style and the influences on it. Read some Eastern manuals and training programs and perhaps you'll see it too. This is not a criticism of Sam on my part. Writing like one of the most studied authors of all time is not a bad thing.

Bach5G · by **Bach5G** » 2021-06-29 9:00 p.m.

Thank you Harrison. That was very helpful.

hyperbolica · by **hyperbolica** » 2021-06-29 9:02 p.m.

Sounding zen-ish or eastern or making up contradictions doesn't make it profound. I read the books about motorcycles and tennis too.

Maybe we need a visual. Fu Manchu, John Lennon shades, Samuel Jackson beret, Bill Watrous paisley tunic, Jesus sandals?

Oh, and my malware software has this to say about his website:

<ATTACHMENT filename="samburtis.com.jpg" index="0">~~[attachment=0]~~samburtis.com.jpg</ATTACHMENT>

"due to reputation"?!?!?!

harrisonreed · by **harrisonreed** » 2021-06-29 9:26 p.m.

mwpfoot · by **mwpfoot** » 2021-06-29 10:19 p.m.

He plays professionally across all low brass, he participated in our forums at a time where they were fairly toxic on a lot of levels, he formalized his learnings into two volume and taught around the country to supplement his income, ... at some point, "yea but he was mean about the conventional wisdom re: the diaphragm" seems a bit insignificant in evaluating the man, let alone his materials. A lot of shit got personal over there, and it always took at least two.

Nowadays he's a good follow on Facebook - might even answer questions about his book or teaching if you are respectful. Meaning: some of y'all should just continue leaving him alone. He's not for you. It'll be ok.

😉

PosauneCat · by **PosauneCat** » 2021-06-30 1:15 a.m.

[quote="robcat2075"]<QUOTE author="btone" post_id="151865" time="1624913819" user_id="112">
...Maoist China and the French Revolution.[/quote]

I'm pretty sure no one has been sent to the guillotine.

We're just doubting some doubtful directions in a book.

I'm also pretty sure his career won't be impeded one bit by anything said on this forum. We spent pages grousing about Massimo La-what's-his-name and he still has more of a career going than anyone here.
</QUOTE>

Genau!!

PosauneCat · by **PosauneCat** » 2021-06-30 1:17 a.m.

[quote="harrisonreed"]<QUOTE author="Bach5G" post_id="151911" time="1624971479" user_id="2999">
I’ve got his TB&C book and watched some of his videos. I’ve attended an informal masterclass he gave, asked questions, and had a brief lesson with him. I drove him to the airport.

What part of his teaching do you think resembles Zen? Or “a very old-school Eastern take” on teaching?[/quote]

Sure:

Sam Burtis:

"A note is just a very fast tempo. …a tempo is just a very slow note.

Now do we perceive that tempo as a note? No. Of course not.

Why? We are not big enough. Not slow enough.

Think on it

....

After you are well into this process, it is my hope that you will begin see your instrument and indeed music itself in a whole

new light.

Be patient. Nothing truly new comes easily or quickly. But it is there for the taking if you have the proper aim.

I leave you with a Zen saying that encapsulates the entire learning process as it is encountered in any and all real

endeavours:

Before Zen, a tree is just a tree.

During Zen, everything is confused.

After Zen, a tree is once again a tree. Only different."

Miyamoto Musashi:

"Truth is not what you want it to be; it is what it is, and you must bend to its power or live a lie.

Think lightly of yourself and deeply of the world

Even if you strive diligently on your chosen path day after day, if your heart is not in accord with it, then even if you think you are on a good path, from the point of view of the straight and true, this is not a genuine path. If you do not pursue a genuine path to its consummation, then a little bit of crookedness in the mind will later turn into a major warp.

Reflect on this."

I don't know what to tell you, man, but I see no reason to jump through any more hoops for you over Sam's obvious writing style and the influences on it. Read some Eastern manuals and training programs and perhaps you'll see it too. This is not a criticism of Sam on my part. Writing like one of the most studied authors of all time is not a bad thing.
</QUOTE>

Thank you, Grasshopper! :-)

iranzi · 2024-10-14 7:27 p.m.

Anyone willing to part with their Burtis books? (pease pm me)

iranzi · 2024-10-14 7:40 p.m.

Hahaha such funny thread!

:lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol:

i really miss him for his passion & enthusiasm…

mgladdish · by **mgladdish** » 2024-10-18 6:00 a.m.

Wayne's video is great. Thanks.

I'm reminded of a masterclass at music college. Bernard Purdie came in and got a drummer to just play 4 on the ride. He was great then and has since gone on to play with everyone, so definitely no chump. Then Bernard sat on the same kit and played 4 on the same cymbal. Somehow Bernard's 4 was so much better!

Great time is so, so important.

timothy42b · by **timothy42b** » 2024-10-18 8:08 a.m.

[quote="iranzi"]Hahaha such funny thread! Sam Burtis must have been a bit confused: serving Zen to tpherald crowd?? Only hardcore Presbyterianism would have worked there

:lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol:

i really miss him for his passion & enthusiasm…[/quote]

He also shared those ideas with a tuba forum, I forget which one. As I recall, he made a comment like "now you'll probably ban me," and someone replied, "Don't be silly. We have an ignore button."

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