Doubling and tone
- hyperbolica
- Posts: 3990
- Joined: Mar 23, 2018
I've been playing a lot of euphonium recently. I've got 3 very different instruments and I've been trying to learn the best parts of each (Wessex Festivo, King 2280 and Conn 24i).
And then all of a sudden I get a call about a new bone quartet (where I'm not playing bass). So I go back to my 79h and my 88hw/525 and try to play. The sound is thin and frighteningly shaky. The Euph mouthpieces are SM3, SM3u and I'm using a DE 104F4 on the smaller shank 24i. My tenor pieces are DE 104 D/E/F/G, winding up on the 88h w/DE 104F. I was practicing 1st parts to Bach Chorales just to try to solidify the upper range and keep it from shaking/wobbling. A lot of notes from A to D above middle C.
I feel like Ive been practicing a lot, enough that this shouldn't be happening. Maybe too much euph is the only thing I can think of. I play bass once a week when one quartet meets, and the rest of the time has been split between euph and tenor (admittedly mostly small tenor), and an occasional hour in the evening on tuba. Maybe I'm just spreading it all too thin. The DE pieces seem so small when I go back to them. Are the SM3 pieces that big?
And then all of a sudden I get a call about a new bone quartet (where I'm not playing bass). So I go back to my 79h and my 88hw/525 and try to play. The sound is thin and frighteningly shaky. The Euph mouthpieces are SM3, SM3u and I'm using a DE 104F4 on the smaller shank 24i. My tenor pieces are DE 104 D/E/F/G, winding up on the 88h w/DE 104F. I was practicing 1st parts to Bach Chorales just to try to solidify the upper range and keep it from shaking/wobbling. A lot of notes from A to D above middle C.
I feel like Ive been practicing a lot, enough that this shouldn't be happening. Maybe too much euph is the only thing I can think of. I play bass once a week when one quartet meets, and the rest of the time has been split between euph and tenor (admittedly mostly small tenor), and an occasional hour in the evening on tuba. Maybe I'm just spreading it all too thin. The DE pieces seem so small when I go back to them. Are the SM3 pieces that big?
- Doug_Elliott
- Posts: 4155
- Joined: Mar 22, 2018
They're big in terms of cup volume and openness of feel. I think you're experiencing the same thing as going from bass to tenor or big tenor to small tenor. You've gotten used to a different resistance and using a lot of air, and you just need to back off. Freebuzzing (softly) and buzzing into the horn (I think you know what I mean) will adjust things quickly.
- Burgerbob
- Posts: 6327
- Joined: Apr 23, 2018
Euphonium gives a lot of resistance or "help" to the player that trombone does not. It's easy to play with bad habits and still make an acceptable sound.
Also, the oral cavity setting for euphonium is on average a bit more open/larger. If you use that setting on tenor trombone, you have lost a lot of the help behind the chops for range and sound.
Also, the oral cavity setting for euphonium is on average a bit more open/larger. If you use that setting on tenor trombone, you have lost a lot of the help behind the chops for range and sound.
- VJOFan
- Posts: 529
- Joined: Apr 06, 2018
I have one "gig" a year at Remembrance Day for the high school I teach in, as a trumpet player.
My main focus is always on the appropriate air stream for that horn. Once I calm down my bone blowing, I make a decent trumpeter... for 3 minutes at a time.
My main focus is always on the appropriate air stream for that horn. Once I calm down my bone blowing, I make a decent trumpeter... for 3 minutes at a time.
- Matt_K
- Posts: 4809
- Joined: Mar 21, 2018
[quote="VJOFan"]My main focus is always on the appropriate air stream for that horn. Once I calm down my bone blowing, I make a decent trumpeter... for 3 minutes at a time.[/quote]
:lol: I know the feeling. I'm up to being able to play trumpet for like 10 minutes. It's actually passable, but then it quickly falls off a cliff.
:lol: I know the feeling. I'm up to being able to play trumpet for like 10 minutes. It's actually passable, but then it quickly falls off a cliff.
- Doubler
- Posts: 435
- Joined: Jan 07, 2019
I think that matching a sound image in your head and spending enough time behind each horn so that the awkwardness of transitioning is minimized will go a long way toward improvement.
- hyperbolica
- Posts: 3990
- Joined: Mar 23, 2018
Doug, I got that shank you sent today. I think that's going to work out in an unexpected way. It works for the 24i, but also for my 79h with a small receiver.
As for the weak trombone sound, that's fixing itself by just playing more tenor. Euph, tuba and bass bone take their toll. I'd rather take the chance of sounding bad on euph than on bone, as I've never really had a gig on a valve instrument, I'm just anticipating the need to play less slide due to shoulder issues. Not sure if I'll be able to make the change on command or if I'll have to just play tenor for a couple of days before a tenor gig. Anyway, thanks all for chipping in with that. I've always had a great tenor sound, but playing a lot of euph for physical reasons. Maybe it's time for another steroid shot.
As for the weak trombone sound, that's fixing itself by just playing more tenor. Euph, tuba and bass bone take their toll. I'd rather take the chance of sounding bad on euph than on bone, as I've never really had a gig on a valve instrument, I'm just anticipating the need to play less slide due to shoulder issues. Not sure if I'll be able to make the change on command or if I'll have to just play tenor for a couple of days before a tenor gig. Anyway, thanks all for chipping in with that. I've always had a great tenor sound, but playing a lot of euph for physical reasons. Maybe it's time for another steroid shot.
- Basbasun
- Posts: 496
- Joined: Mar 26, 2018
[quote="Burgerbob"]Euphonium gives a lot of resistance or "help" to the player that trombone does not. It's easy to play with bad habits and still make an acceptable sound.
Also, the oral cavity setting for euphonium is on average a bit more open/larger. If you use that setting on tenor trombone, you have lost a lot of the help behind the chops for range and sound.[/quote]
That is exactly right on the money.
Do practise on the trombone every day, even if just 10 minutes, to let the chops remeber how it´s done.
Also, the oral cavity setting for euphonium is on average a bit more open/larger. If you use that setting on tenor trombone, you have lost a lot of the help behind the chops for range and sound.[/quote]
That is exactly right on the money.
Do practise on the trombone every day, even if just 10 minutes, to let the chops remeber how it´s done.
- Vegasbound
- Posts: 1328
- Joined: Jul 06, 2019
Remember your not just doubling, your playing 4 different instruments so your practice needs to reflect that
- imsevimse
- Posts: 1765
- Joined: Apr 29, 2018
[quote="Basbasun"]<QUOTE author="Burgerbob" post_id="150262" time="1623088524" user_id="3131">
Euphonium gives a lot of resistance or "help" to the player that trombone does not. It's easy to play with bad habits and still make an acceptable sound.
Also, the oral cavity setting for euphonium is on average a bit more open/larger. If you use that setting on tenor trombone, you have lost a lot of the help behind the chops for range and sound.[/quote]
That is exactly right on the money.
Do practise on the trombone every day, even if just 10 minutes, to let the chops remeber how it´s done.
</QUOTE>
What I've learned that I think is important is all my emboushures need to be checked and earned every day.
I put my thoughts on my own progress on doubling here:
<LINK_TEXT text="https://trombonechat.com/viewtopic.php? ... 34#p150334">https://trombonechat.com/viewtopic.php?f=11&t=16335&p=150334#p150334</LINK_TEXT>
/Tom
Euphonium gives a lot of resistance or "help" to the player that trombone does not. It's easy to play with bad habits and still make an acceptable sound.
Also, the oral cavity setting for euphonium is on average a bit more open/larger. If you use that setting on tenor trombone, you have lost a lot of the help behind the chops for range and sound.[/quote]
That is exactly right on the money.
Do practise on the trombone every day, even if just 10 minutes, to let the chops remeber how it´s done.
</QUOTE>
What I've learned that I think is important is all my emboushures need to be checked and earned every day.
I put my thoughts on my own progress on doubling here:
<LINK_TEXT text="https://trombonechat.com/viewtopic.php? ... 34#p150334">https://trombonechat.com/viewtopic.php?f=11&t=16335&p=150334#p150334</LINK_TEXT>
/Tom