Wide slides
- JLivi
- Posts: 870
- Joined: May 10, 2018
So I've been searching for a medium bore horn for quite some time and one I haven't tried yet is a Bach 36b. Bach horns as I have never really gotten along. When I tried a Bach 16 I preferred my 3b. What I played a 42 I preferred a Conn 88h. Even a Bach 50, I went another direction. I've always thought that the reason Bach horns never worked for me was due to the wide slide. And to be honest, I'm don't know that to be true.
Bach horns have always been really hard to play accurately. I've always felt like the slotting was a lot different than what I naturally want it to be. I always find it difficult to lock in notes specifically on lip slurs. I'd be curious if this is something that would go away with spending extensive practice time on the horn.
I know you can order spread "wide slides" from companies like Shires and Edwards, but is there another horn that comes standard with a wide slide? Does anyone know the reason why Bach uses wide slides? Is it possible to get used to a wide slide, and if so, will it affect your playing of the other horns in your arsenal?
Bach horns have always been really hard to play accurately. I've always felt like the slotting was a lot different than what I naturally want it to be. I always find it difficult to lock in notes specifically on lip slurs. I'd be curious if this is something that would go away with spending extensive practice time on the horn.
I know you can order spread "wide slides" from companies like Shires and Edwards, but is there another horn that comes standard with a wide slide? Does anyone know the reason why Bach uses wide slides? Is it possible to get used to a wide slide, and if so, will it affect your playing of the other horns in your arsenal?
- BGuttman
- Posts: 7368
- Joined: Mar 22, 2018
I have a 36C (the convertible version). I have had no problems with it. I play a Yamaha 682 as Symphonic and a King 7B as a bass. I never particularly cared for Bach horns either. Didn't like the 42B when I bought my Yamaha and didn't like a 50B3 when I bought my King 7B.
The 36C turned out to have a nice valve register since it is the proper size valve, unlike the 42B and 50B. Note that I also had a Conn 79H and found I liked the 36C just a little better.
The 36 has a slightly narrower slide than the 42, although wider than the 79H. More like the width of my Yamaha.
I had tried a King 3B+ (2125F) but found the slide a lot narrower -- more like a slightly oversize 3B. I wanted to like it, but just didn't.
The 36C turned out to have a nice valve register since it is the proper size valve, unlike the 42B and 50B. Note that I also had a Conn 79H and found I liked the 36C just a little better.
The 36 has a slightly narrower slide than the 42, although wider than the 79H. More like the width of my Yamaha.
I had tried a King 3B+ (2125F) but found the slide a lot narrower -- more like a slightly oversize 3B. I wanted to like it, but just didn't.
- harrisonreed
- Posts: 6479
- Joined: Aug 17, 2018
Bach horns play "uniquely" not because of the wide slide, but because of the wide slide plus all the other factors -- undersized rotor ports, possible wonky bracing, bell construction, bead, and tuning slides.
There are Getzens, Edwards, Shires, Raths, and Yamahas with crooks wider than an 88H, and none of them play like a Bach
It is a big wide world out there, and while the perfect Bach might be sitting in Joe's collection, or is waiting to be built, you can rest assured that what you like or don't like about Bach's is a lot more 3 dimensional than one design spec.
As for the wide slide medium bore, that is not a common thing. A 36B doesn't have one, at least not the same crook as what a large bore 42 tenor would have. I haven't played one in a long time so correct me if I'm wrong there. If you want a wide slide medium bore, Edwards or Shires is the way to go in the US.
personally, the medium bore trombone is a weird animal. Why do you want one? Why do you suspect that a wide slide is why you don't like Bach's? Have you tried a Shires or Edwards with a wide slide? (you should) why are you worried about a Bach 36B if you've disliked every other Bach you've tried? ( The designs all came from like one dude and his team) why are you worried about wide slides if you've disliked every one you've tried?
Enigmas abound
There are Getzens, Edwards, Shires, Raths, and Yamahas with crooks wider than an 88H, and none of them play like a Bach
It is a big wide world out there, and while the perfect Bach might be sitting in Joe's collection, or is waiting to be built, you can rest assured that what you like or don't like about Bach's is a lot more 3 dimensional than one design spec.
As for the wide slide medium bore, that is not a common thing. A 36B doesn't have one, at least not the same crook as what a large bore 42 tenor would have. I haven't played one in a long time so correct me if I'm wrong there. If you want a wide slide medium bore, Edwards or Shires is the way to go in the US.
personally, the medium bore trombone is a weird animal. Why do you want one? Why do you suspect that a wide slide is why you don't like Bach's? Have you tried a Shires or Edwards with a wide slide? (you should) why are you worried about a Bach 36B if you've disliked every other Bach you've tried? ( The designs all came from like one dude and his team) why are you worried about wide slides if you've disliked every one you've tried?
Enigmas abound
- Burgerbob
- Posts: 6327
- Joined: Apr 23, 2018
[quote="harrisonreed"]you can rest assured that what you like or don't like about Bach's is a lot more 3 dimensional than one design spec.[/quote]
:clever:
:clever:
- harrisonreed
- Posts: 6479
- Joined: Aug 17, 2018
Not trying to be dumb here. There is a lot going on in your post, and I want to dig in:
[quote="JLivi"]So I've been searching for a medium bore horn for quite some time[/quote] why? You can save yourself time and money and stop searching. A 3BF will do ya
[quote="JLivi"]and one I haven't tried yet is a Bach 36b. Bach horns as I have never really gotten along.[/quote]
Here's your sign, from heaven
[quote="JLivi"]When I tried a Bach 16 I preferred my 3b. What I played a 42 I preferred a Conn 88h. Even a Bach 50, I went another direction.[/quote]
More signs from heaven and your own heart
[quote="JLivi"]I've always thought that the reason Bach horns never worked for me was due to the wide slide. And to be honest, I'm don't know that to be true.[/quote]
I don't think it's true. See my earlier post
[quote="JLivi"]Bach horns have always been really hard to play accurately.[/quote]
"I'm right with you, Red Three!"
[quote="JLivi"]I've always felt like the slotting was a lot different than what I naturally want it to be.[/quote]
"Hey I've got a problem here"
[quote="JLivi"]I always find it difficult to lock in notes specifically on lip slurs.[/quote]
"No, I can hold it, I'm alriiighh---"
[quote="JLivi"]I'd be curious if this is something that would go away with spending extensive practice time on the horn.[/quote] of course it probably would. There is a cost and a benefit. Is the juice worth the squeeze? Heck, Alessi made it work, did his mods, and then went to Edwards. Where did that get him? Oh wait. Maybe the squeeze is worth the squeeze?
[quote="JLivi"]
I know you can order spread "wide slides" from companies like Shires and Edwards, but is there another horn that comes standard with a wide slide? Does anyone know the reason why Bach uses wide slides? Is it possible to get used to a wide slide, and if so, will it affect your playing of the other horns in your arsenal?[/quote]
I think after breaking this post up that you're hung up on wide slide as a big factor, and Bach as some sort of awesome secret you've been left out on. Neither is the case though. You gotta try Shires "Elkhart" setup with a wide slide, or the Getzen "almost 88H" with a medium wide slide. They will open your eyes up to how small of a factor it is, within the greater whole, and how GREAT that kind of slide can be.
I hope you get other answers here that help you!
[quote="JLivi"]So I've been searching for a medium bore horn for quite some time[/quote] why? You can save yourself time and money and stop searching. A 3BF will do ya
[quote="JLivi"]and one I haven't tried yet is a Bach 36b. Bach horns as I have never really gotten along.[/quote]
Here's your sign, from heaven
[quote="JLivi"]When I tried a Bach 16 I preferred my 3b. What I played a 42 I preferred a Conn 88h. Even a Bach 50, I went another direction.[/quote]
More signs from heaven and your own heart
[quote="JLivi"]I've always thought that the reason Bach horns never worked for me was due to the wide slide. And to be honest, I'm don't know that to be true.[/quote]
I don't think it's true. See my earlier post
[quote="JLivi"]Bach horns have always been really hard to play accurately.[/quote]
"I'm right with you, Red Three!"
[quote="JLivi"]I've always felt like the slotting was a lot different than what I naturally want it to be.[/quote]
"Hey I've got a problem here"
[quote="JLivi"]I always find it difficult to lock in notes specifically on lip slurs.[/quote]
"No, I can hold it, I'm alriiighh---"
[quote="JLivi"]I'd be curious if this is something that would go away with spending extensive practice time on the horn.[/quote] of course it probably would. There is a cost and a benefit. Is the juice worth the squeeze? Heck, Alessi made it work, did his mods, and then went to Edwards. Where did that get him? Oh wait. Maybe the squeeze is worth the squeeze?
[quote="JLivi"]
I know you can order spread "wide slides" from companies like Shires and Edwards, but is there another horn that comes standard with a wide slide? Does anyone know the reason why Bach uses wide slides? Is it possible to get used to a wide slide, and if so, will it affect your playing of the other horns in your arsenal?[/quote]
I think after breaking this post up that you're hung up on wide slide as a big factor, and Bach as some sort of awesome secret you've been left out on. Neither is the case though. You gotta try Shires "Elkhart" setup with a wide slide, or the Getzen "almost 88H" with a medium wide slide. They will open your eyes up to how small of a factor it is, within the greater whole, and how GREAT that kind of slide can be.
I hope you get other answers here that help you!
- JLivi
- Posts: 870
- Joined: May 10, 2018
[quote="harrisonreed"]It is a big wide world out there, and while the perfect Bach might be sitting in Joe's collection, or is waiting to be built, you can rest assured that what you like or don't like about Bach's is a lot more 3 dimensional than one design spec.
personally, the medium bore trombone is a weird animal. Why do you want one? Why do you suspect that a wide slide is why you don't like Bach's? Have you tried a Shires or Edwards with a wide slide? (you should) why are you worried about a Bach 36B if you've disliked every other Bach you've tried? ( The designs all came from like one dude and his team) why are you worried about wide slides if you've disliked every one you've tried?[/quote]
I don't know that the wide slide is my issue with Bach horns, but that's what I always assumed. It's one of those things that when you look at horns side by side, it's the first thing I noticed and just assumed that was the issue. After reading some of the responses I'm sure it's not just limited to the slide.
I know medium bores are a slippery slope. But I currently own a Conn 74h (.525 with 8.5" bell) and it's amazing. The only thing that I wish it had was a valve. It's an amazing horn and i love playing it when my 3B or 3BF don't quite work, but i need something with a valve to make those gigs easier.
personally, the medium bore trombone is a weird animal. Why do you want one? Why do you suspect that a wide slide is why you don't like Bach's? Have you tried a Shires or Edwards with a wide slide? (you should) why are you worried about a Bach 36B if you've disliked every other Bach you've tried? ( The designs all came from like one dude and his team) why are you worried about wide slides if you've disliked every one you've tried?[/quote]
I don't know that the wide slide is my issue with Bach horns, but that's what I always assumed. It's one of those things that when you look at horns side by side, it's the first thing I noticed and just assumed that was the issue. After reading some of the responses I'm sure it's not just limited to the slide.
I know medium bores are a slippery slope. But I currently own a Conn 74h (.525 with 8.5" bell) and it's amazing. The only thing that I wish it had was a valve. It's an amazing horn and i love playing it when my 3B or 3BF don't quite work, but i need something with a valve to make those gigs easier.
- Doug_Elliott
- Posts: 4155
- Joined: Mar 22, 2018
A good 36B is possibly the best horn Bach makes. I used to feel the same way about other Bachs, especially the small bores... but maybe I had only tried bad ones.
I'm not familiar with a 74H, but you could get a valve put on it.
I'm not familiar with a 74H, but you could get a valve put on it.
- BGuttman
- Posts: 7368
- Joined: Mar 22, 2018
A 2525 slide on an 88H would make it an "84H with a valve".
- hyperbolica
- Posts: 3990
- Joined: Mar 23, 2018
The Conn 78 and 79h have wide slides. I spend a lot of time on my 79h. I've owned 36bs, and they are also nice players, but harder around the edges.
Also, I have an 88h that I put a 525 slide on (sl2525), and while the slide isn't as wide as the 79h, I think it's equally nimble. The light bell of a great Elkhart 88h is hard to beat.
79h can be hard to find, and a 3b really isn't the same (although its not a bad horn on its own, it's completely different). There are some 79h enthusiasts here on this forum that really love the instrument. I think the 74h has a bigger bell. I prefer the more focused 8" bell of the 79h.
Good luck with whatever you are looking for.
Also, I have an 88h that I put a 525 slide on (sl2525), and while the slide isn't as wide as the 79h, I think it's equally nimble. The light bell of a great Elkhart 88h is hard to beat.
79h can be hard to find, and a 3b really isn't the same (although its not a bad horn on its own, it's completely different). There are some 79h enthusiasts here on this forum that really love the instrument. I think the 74h has a bigger bell. I prefer the more focused 8" bell of the 79h.
Good luck with whatever you are looking for.
- JLivi
- Posts: 870
- Joined: May 10, 2018
I guess getting back to wide slides. How do they make a horn play differently?
[quote="Doug Elliott"]A good 36B is possibly the best horn Bach makes. I used to feel the same way about other Bachs, especially the small bores... but maybe I had only tried bad ones.[/quote]
Interesting! I feel the same way too, about Bachs. Maybe I've only tried bad ones. But it's hard to know because they seem to be incredibly inconsistent, at least in their mouthpieces.
[quote="hyperbolica"]The Conn 78 and 79h have wide slides. I spend a lot of time on my 79h. I've owned 36bs, and they are also nice players, but harder around the edges.
Also, I have an 88h that I put a 525 slide on (sl2525), and while the slide isn't as wide as the 79h, I think it's equally nimble. The light bell of a great Elkhart 88h is hard to beat.
79h can be hard to find, and a 3b really isn't the same (although its not a bad horn on its own, it's completely different). There are some 79h enthusiasts here on this forum that really love the instrument. I think the 74h has a bigger bell. I prefer the more focused 8" bell of the 79h.[/quote]
What do you mean "harder around the edges?
I've been wanting to try an 88 with a sl2525, but I've just never had the chance. And buying new really doesn't seem like something I want to do. But this might be something that would satisfy what I'm looking for.
I love the 79h but I've never been in a good position to buy when they come available. In fact, there was an amazing one at a local music store that was on consignment, but it was $2100 and there was no flexibility on price. I loved the horn, but couldn't justify the high price point. One of my students bought the horn so now I see it every week.
[quote="Doug Elliott"]A good 36B is possibly the best horn Bach makes. I used to feel the same way about other Bachs, especially the small bores... but maybe I had only tried bad ones.[/quote]
Interesting! I feel the same way too, about Bachs. Maybe I've only tried bad ones. But it's hard to know because they seem to be incredibly inconsistent, at least in their mouthpieces.
[quote="hyperbolica"]The Conn 78 and 79h have wide slides. I spend a lot of time on my 79h. I've owned 36bs, and they are also nice players, but harder around the edges.
Also, I have an 88h that I put a 525 slide on (sl2525), and while the slide isn't as wide as the 79h, I think it's equally nimble. The light bell of a great Elkhart 88h is hard to beat.
79h can be hard to find, and a 3b really isn't the same (although its not a bad horn on its own, it's completely different). There are some 79h enthusiasts here on this forum that really love the instrument. I think the 74h has a bigger bell. I prefer the more focused 8" bell of the 79h.[/quote]
What do you mean "harder around the edges?
I've been wanting to try an 88 with a sl2525, but I've just never had the chance. And buying new really doesn't seem like something I want to do. But this might be something that would satisfy what I'm looking for.
I love the 79h but I've never been in a good position to buy when they come available. In fact, there was an amazing one at a local music store that was on consignment, but it was $2100 and there was no flexibility on price. I loved the horn, but couldn't justify the high price point. One of my students bought the horn so now I see it every week.
- hyperbolica
- Posts: 3990
- Joined: Mar 23, 2018
[quote="JLivi"]
What do you mean "harder around the edges?
I've been wanting to try an 88 with a sl2525, but I've just never had the chance. And buying new really doesn't seem like something I want to do. But this might be something that would satisfy what I'm looking for.
[/quote]
By hard around the edges I mean the 36 is more rigid, less pliable. I think of the ideal application for the 36 to be chamber orchestra and ideal for 79h is even smaller but more flexible, like a quartet. The instruments are flexible, but I just think of the Bach that way.
You come over, I'll let you play the 79 and the 88/525. The 79 is darker but more focused if that makes sense. The 88/525 sounds lighter, more brilliant. The difference is a little unexpected.
What do you mean "harder around the edges?
I've been wanting to try an 88 with a sl2525, but I've just never had the chance. And buying new really doesn't seem like something I want to do. But this might be something that would satisfy what I'm looking for.
[/quote]
By hard around the edges I mean the 36 is more rigid, less pliable. I think of the ideal application for the 36 to be chamber orchestra and ideal for 79h is even smaller but more flexible, like a quartet. The instruments are flexible, but I just think of the Bach that way.
You come over, I'll let you play the 79 and the 88/525. The 79 is darker but more focused if that makes sense. The 88/525 sounds lighter, more brilliant. The difference is a little unexpected.
- Vegasbound
- Posts: 1328
- Joined: Jul 06, 2019
The 36 is the one Bach I have been happy to play
You should go visit DJ and see what he has with wide slides
You should go visit DJ and see what he has with wide slides
- dukesboneman
- Posts: 935
- Joined: Apr 02, 2018
Over the years I`ve played Bach 36`s and Conn 78H`s. At one time either a 78H or the 36 were my only horns for everything. Great Instruments.
now I own a 36 and a 36B (both Mount Vernons)
On the Straight 36 I didn`t like the leadpipe so I put in an Edwards #2.
This comment I don`t understand -"The Conn 78 and 79h have wide slides. I spend a lot of time on my 79h. I've owned 36bs, and they are also nice players, <U>but harder around the edges."</U> What does that mean?
I never thought Jimmy Knepper sounded hard around the edges
now I own a 36 and a 36B (both Mount Vernons)
On the Straight 36 I didn`t like the leadpipe so I put in an Edwards #2.
This comment I don`t understand -"The Conn 78 and 79h have wide slides. I spend a lot of time on my 79h. I've owned 36bs, and they are also nice players, <U>but harder around the edges."</U> What does that mean?
I never thought Jimmy Knepper sounded hard around the edges
- Doug_Elliott
- Posts: 4155
- Joined: Mar 22, 2018
I think he just means less flexiblity in sound concept. I understand, although I've never had a 78H or 79H.
- bellend
- Posts: 218
- Joined: Mar 23, 2018
[quote="Doug Elliott"]A good 36B is possibly the best horn Bach makes. I used to feel the same way about other Bachs, especially the small bores... but maybe I had only tried bad ones.
I'm not familiar with a 74H, but you could get a valve put on it.[/quote]
Couldn't agree more, definitely give a 36 a try!
For my money they are most sorted trombone that Bach make .
BellEnd
I'm not familiar with a 74H, but you could get a valve put on it.[/quote]
Couldn't agree more, definitely give a 36 a try!
For my money they are most sorted trombone that Bach make .
BellEnd
- stewbones43
- Posts: 333
- Joined: Oct 25, 2018
[quote="JLivi"]
I know medium bores are a slippery slope. But I currently own a Conn 74h (.525 with 8.5" bell) and it's amazing. The only thing that I wish it had was a valve. It's an amazing horn and i love playing it when my 3B or 3BF don't quite work, but i need something with a valve to make those gigs easier.[/quote]
I also have a 74H which I love. I often use it for high 1st trombone parts in orchestral repertoire.
If you want a 74H with a valve, look for a 75H.
Cheers
Stewbones43
I know medium bores are a slippery slope. But I currently own a Conn 74h (.525 with 8.5" bell) and it's amazing. The only thing that I wish it had was a valve. It's an amazing horn and i love playing it when my 3B or 3BF don't quite work, but i need something with a valve to make those gigs easier.[/quote]
I also have a 74H which I love. I often use it for high 1st trombone parts in orchestral repertoire.
If you want a 74H with a valve, look for a 75H.
Cheers
Stewbones43
- spencercarran
- Posts: 689
- Joined: Oct 17, 2020
[quote="JLivi"]I know medium bores are a slippery slope. But I currently own a Conn 74h (.525 with 8.5" bell) and it's amazing. The only thing that I wish it had was a valve. It's an amazing horn and i love playing it when my 3B or 3BF don't quite work, but i need something with a valve to make those gigs easier.[/quote]
Look for a Benge 175 - it's got a narrow slide and (for better or for worse) does not play like a Bach. Probably fits in well for when a 3BF isn't quite enough. I love mine.
Look for a Benge 175 - it's got a narrow slide and (for better or for worse) does not play like a Bach. Probably fits in well for when a 3BF isn't quite enough. I love mine.
- JLivi
- Posts: 870
- Joined: May 10, 2018
[quote="spencercarran"]Look for a Benge 175 - it's got a narrow slide and (for better or for worse) does not play like a Bach. Probably fits in well for when a 3BF isn't quite enough. I love mine.[/quote]
I had a Benge 175f at one point in time. I sold it to a forum member, who I believe still has it. I enjoyed the horn, but I don't think I knew what I was looking for back then.
How do the 175s compared to a King 3b+?
I had a Benge 175f at one point in time. I sold it to a forum member, who I believe still has it. I enjoyed the horn, but I don't think I knew what I was looking for back then.
How do the 175s compared to a King 3b+?
- spencercarran
- Posts: 689
- Joined: Oct 17, 2020
Wouldn't know, never got to try a 3b+. The specs are superficially similar and, from what I've read at least, they share a few components in common. I would bet on the Benge leaning a bit more "legit" than a similarly sized King, since that line was mostly intended to be sold to the classical market.
- timothy42b
- Posts: 1812
- Joined: Mar 27, 2018
A long time ago Sam Burtis speculated that the wide slide might be the reason for the 42B popularity in the orchestral world. He wondered out loud more than asserted, but his idea was that the wide slide, because of less interference with the neck, allowed players to get to their optimal chops placement more easily.