Teaching Time to Kids
- VJOFan
- Posts: 529
- Joined: Apr 06, 2018
A few of the recent threads have touched on time and rhythmic accuracy so it made me think to share the best and simplest method I ever encountered for teaching a group of musicians play together.
At a band conducting workshop the woman who had been brought in as the mentor clinician took a small part of the session to share her best tips. One of them was how she got her bands to feel time together.
This is all she did.
“Let’s count out loud together in 4/4 at about 60bpm.”
She conducted, we counted.
“Keep counting.”
She stopped conducting.
“Okay, when I turn my palm down count silently, and when I turn my palm up count out loud.”
[We weren’t to physically show the beat in any way]
She played with muting and unmuting the group for different lengths of time and at different places in the bar.
When we counted silently for probably 7 or 8 measures then all said “3” together it felt pretty cool.
It was so simple, but is still the best way I have ever found to teach a group what is meant when they are told to “count” or “feel the beat”. Musicians have to have that click track internalized but have to also trust that everyone else is syncing their tracks to the same time. This little game instills that.
I applied it to my own groups right away and could instantly hear and feel the difference between a group being pulled along by my baton and a group that was in time with me and just using me as a reference and for the feedback on the musical interpretation.
If we started to get ragged or were playing a piece in an odd time signature or what have you we’d play the game and get it sorted in a few minutes.
I’m sure I’m not the only one who has seen this or done something similar but it’s something that works so here it is.
At a band conducting workshop the woman who had been brought in as the mentor clinician took a small part of the session to share her best tips. One of them was how she got her bands to feel time together.
This is all she did.
“Let’s count out loud together in 4/4 at about 60bpm.”
She conducted, we counted.
“Keep counting.”
She stopped conducting.
“Okay, when I turn my palm down count silently, and when I turn my palm up count out loud.”
[We weren’t to physically show the beat in any way]
She played with muting and unmuting the group for different lengths of time and at different places in the bar.
When we counted silently for probably 7 or 8 measures then all said “3” together it felt pretty cool.
It was so simple, but is still the best way I have ever found to teach a group what is meant when they are told to “count” or “feel the beat”. Musicians have to have that click track internalized but have to also trust that everyone else is syncing their tracks to the same time. This little game instills that.
I applied it to my own groups right away and could instantly hear and feel the difference between a group being pulled along by my baton and a group that was in time with me and just using me as a reference and for the feedback on the musical interpretation.
If we started to get ragged or were playing a piece in an odd time signature or what have you we’d play the game and get it sorted in a few minutes.
I’m sure I’m not the only one who has seen this or done something similar but it’s something that works so here it is.
- PaulTdot
- Posts: 112
- Joined: Feb 04, 2019
Nice technique.
I've also worked with jazz groups which did "trading with the room": it's like trading with the drums, except the drums don't play - you play 4 bars (or 8) and then all count silently for 4, and so on. It can be pretty eye-opening!
I've also worked with jazz groups which did "trading with the room": it's like trading with the drums, except the drums don't play - you play 4 bars (or 8) and then all count silently for 4, and so on. It can be pretty eye-opening!
- Wilktone
- Posts: 720
- Joined: Mar 27, 2018
Edward S. Lisk has a similar exercise in his book "The Creative Director - Alternative Rehearsal Techniques." He bases his exercise around the cycle of 4ths. The students are instructed to play around the cycle of 4ths with a certain play rest pattern, usually a different number of beats. So for example you might play for 4 beats and rest for 5 beats. The conductor will cue the note entrances and cutoffs for the first couple or so (not actually beating time once the group is playing) and then stop. Everyone is to keep the beat going and continue the pattern. When the group gets off from the patter, stop and come up with a different number of beats for play/rest and continue.
Lisk's book is designed primarily for middle school concert band, I believe, but I've used the concepts in there for elementary students and advanced adult students as well. There's rehearsal techniques in there for tone, dynamics, rhythmic perception, balancing, etc.
Lisk's book is designed primarily for middle school concert band, I believe, but I've used the concepts in there for elementary students and advanced adult students as well. There's rehearsal techniques in there for tone, dynamics, rhythmic perception, balancing, etc.
- afugate
- Posts: 671
- Joined: Mar 23, 2018
[quote="Wilktone"][color=#FF0000]Edward S. Lisk has a similar exercise in his book [color=#FF0000]"The Creative Director - Alternative Rehearsal Techniques." He bases his exercise around the cycle of 4ths. The students are instructed to play around the cycle of 4ths with a certain play rest pattern, usually a different number of beats. So for example you might play for 4 beats and rest for 5 beats. The conductor will cue the note entrances and cutoffs for the first couple or so (not actually beating time once the group is playing) and then stop. Everyone is to keep the beat going and continue the pattern. When the group gets off from the patter, stop and come up with a different number of beats for play/rest and continue.
Lisk's book is designed primarily for middle school concert band, I believe, but I've used the concepts in there for elementary students and advanced adult students as well. There's rehearsal techniques in there for tone, dynamics, rhythmic perception, balancing, etc.[/quote]
This book is full of useful rehearsal techniques. :good:
One of those I like the best is constantly alternating time signatures. There is no good reason why kids can't start out learning a variety of time signatures.
--Andy in OKC
Lisk's book is designed primarily for middle school concert band, I believe, but I've used the concepts in there for elementary students and advanced adult students as well. There's rehearsal techniques in there for tone, dynamics, rhythmic perception, balancing, etc.[/quote]
This book is full of useful rehearsal techniques. :good:
One of those I like the best is constantly alternating time signatures. There is no good reason why kids can't start out learning a variety of time signatures.
--Andy in OKC
- robcat2075
- Posts: 1867
- Joined: Sep 03, 2018
[quote="afugate"]There is no good reason why kids can't start out learning a variety of time signatures.[/quote]
The good reason is information overload.
The good reason is information overload.
- afugate
- Posts: 671
- Joined: Mar 23, 2018
[quote="robcat2075"]<QUOTE author="afugate" post_id="151878" time="1624922156" user_id="86">
There is no good reason why kids can't start out learning a variety of time signatures.[/quote]
The good reason is information overload.
</QUOTE>
You'd be surprised. Learning to count to 3, 5, 6, or 7 is not so different from learning to count to 4.
--Andy in OKC
There is no good reason why kids can't start out learning a variety of time signatures.[/quote]
The good reason is information overload.
</QUOTE>
You'd be surprised. Learning to count to 3, 5, 6, or 7 is not so different from learning to count to 4.
--Andy in OKC
- Elow
- Posts: 1924
- Joined: Mar 02, 2020
[quote="afugate"]
You'd be surprised. Learning to count to 3, 5, 6, or 7 is not so different from learning to count to 4.
--Andy in OKC[/quote]
You’d be even more surpised. My first experience with something that wasn’t 3/4 or 4/4 was a train wreck. 7th grade middle school honor band, i played a piece in 5/4 and just could not comprehend how to count it. I asked the other trombones and no one knew either. I waited until the conductor queued me in every time. My 8th grade year i made all state and played a john mackey piece that was in 7/8 13/8 and 9/8 and changed every bar. Trying to understand that at a young age is very hard
You'd be surprised. Learning to count to 3, 5, 6, or 7 is not so different from learning to count to 4.
--Andy in OKC[/quote]
You’d be even more surpised. My first experience with something that wasn’t 3/4 or 4/4 was a train wreck. 7th grade middle school honor band, i played a piece in 5/4 and just could not comprehend how to count it. I asked the other trombones and no one knew either. I waited until the conductor queued me in every time. My 8th grade year i made all state and played a john mackey piece that was in 7/8 13/8 and 9/8 and changed every bar. Trying to understand that at a young age is very hard
- PaulT
- Posts: 383
- Joined: Jul 18, 2018
Trying to understand it at middle and old age is hard as well.
- baileyman
- Posts: 1169
- Joined: Mar 24, 2018
[quote="Elow"]... My 8th grade year i made all state and played a john mackey piece that was in 7/8 13/8 and 9/8 and changed every bar. Trying to understand that at a young age is very hard[/quote]
At about the same age and same experience, my workaround was to beat the eighths. Then beat one might be up or down on the foot, but at least the pulse was right. Glad not to be doing that any more! (Though one could trundle over to Danversport for as much fun as one could stand...)
At about the same age and same experience, my workaround was to beat the eighths. Then beat one might be up or down on the foot, but at least the pulse was right. Glad not to be doing that any more! (Though one could trundle over to Danversport for as much fun as one could stand...)
- harrisonreed
- Posts: 6479
- Joined: Aug 17, 2018
[quote="Elow"]<QUOTE author="afugate" post_id="151886" time="1624931035" user_id="86">
You'd be surprised. Learning to count to 3, 5, 6, or 7 is not so different from learning to count to 4.
--Andy in OKC[/quote]
You’d be even more surpised. My first experience with something that wasn’t 3/4 or 4/4 was a train wreck. 7th grade middle school honor band, i played a piece in 5/4 and just could not comprehend how to count it. I asked the other trombones and no one knew either. I waited until the conductor queued me in every time. My 8th grade year i made all state and played a john mackey piece that was in 7/8 13/8 and 9/8 and changed every bar. Trying to understand that at a young age is very hard
</QUOTE>
:amazed:
You'd be surprised. Learning to count to 3, 5, 6, or 7 is not so different from learning to count to 4.
--Andy in OKC[/quote]
You’d be even more surpised. My first experience with something that wasn’t 3/4 or 4/4 was a train wreck. 7th grade middle school honor band, i played a piece in 5/4 and just could not comprehend how to count it. I asked the other trombones and no one knew either. I waited until the conductor queued me in every time. My 8th grade year i made all state and played a john mackey piece that was in 7/8 13/8 and 9/8 and changed every bar. Trying to understand that at a young age is very hard
</QUOTE>
:amazed:
- BurckhardtS
- Posts: 253
- Joined: Mar 25, 2018
Cultural differences and the music you are exposed to and internalize when you are young is also a key factor. Most western popular music is in 4/4 or 3/4 meter, which is why our ears gravitate toward it. There is a soul/R&B band I am really into and they sometimes do odd meters, changing time signatures and really tough syncopations.
From what I understand, the lead singer and drummer grew up listening to and playing indigenous Aboriginal music and never really thought of it as complex until they started putting arrangements together to record with a couple of classically trained musicians.
From what I understand, the lead singer and drummer grew up listening to and playing indigenous Aboriginal music and never really thought of it as complex until they started putting arrangements together to record with a couple of classically trained musicians.
- robcat2075
- Posts: 1867
- Joined: Sep 03, 2018
[quote="afugate"]You'd be surprised. Learning to count to 3, 5, 6, or 7 is not so different from learning to count to 4.[/quote]
There are probably a hundred things for which we could plausibly say "there's no good reason why kids can't start out learning..."
But... when you have a beginner class of 20 fifth graders, with a spectrum of readiness-to-learn that ranges from zero to maybe-sort-of, you have to make choices about what to spend time on.
You can't do it all.
There are probably a hundred things for which we could plausibly say "there's no good reason why kids can't start out learning..."
But... when you have a beginner class of 20 fifth graders, with a spectrum of readiness-to-learn that ranges from zero to maybe-sort-of, you have to make choices about what to spend time on.
You can't do it all.
- afugate
- Posts: 671
- Joined: Mar 23, 2018
[quote="Elow"]<QUOTE author="afugate" post_id="151886" time="1624931035" user_id="86">
You'd be surprised. Learning to count to 3, 5, 6, or 7 is not so different from learning to count to 4.
--Andy in OKC[/quote]
You’d be even more surpised. My first experience with something that wasn’t 3/4 or 4/4 was a train wreck. 7th grade middle school honor band, i played a piece in 5/4 and just could not comprehend how to count it. I asked the other trombones and no one knew either. I waited until the conductor queued me in every time. My 8th grade year i made all state and played a john mackey piece that was in 7/8 13/8 and 9/8 and changed every bar. Trying to understand that at a young age is very hard
</QUOTE>
Think for a second what this might have been like if your teacher had started you learning in 5/4? or 7/4?
In my experience, teaching kids to hold a note for 5 beats is no different than teaching them to hold a note for 3 or 4 beats. Ditto for teaching them to play 5 quarter notes, etc. Getting into compound beats like 7/8 is definitely much harder to grasp.
As with many things in life, the challenge is often lack of exposure and familiarity.
--Andy in OKC
You'd be surprised. Learning to count to 3, 5, 6, or 7 is not so different from learning to count to 4.
--Andy in OKC[/quote]
You’d be even more surpised. My first experience with something that wasn’t 3/4 or 4/4 was a train wreck. 7th grade middle school honor band, i played a piece in 5/4 and just could not comprehend how to count it. I asked the other trombones and no one knew either. I waited until the conductor queued me in every time. My 8th grade year i made all state and played a john mackey piece that was in 7/8 13/8 and 9/8 and changed every bar. Trying to understand that at a young age is very hard
</QUOTE>
Think for a second what this might have been like if your teacher had started you learning in 5/4? or 7/4?
In my experience, teaching kids to hold a note for 5 beats is no different than teaching them to hold a note for 3 or 4 beats. Ditto for teaching them to play 5 quarter notes, etc. Getting into compound beats like 7/8 is definitely much harder to grasp.
As with many things in life, the challenge is often lack of exposure and familiarity.
--Andy in OKC