FrankenBach 36b?
- Estraven
- Posts: 122
- Joined: May 05, 2021
Hello all. I could use some help with this.
This is my corp. Bach 36B (s/n 9182). Some of you may recall that I was asking for a source for a replacement trigger lever on the forums awhile back, since mine has a worn-out pivot screw hole.
Well, one thing leads to another, and this is what I learn after exchanging emails with a couple of knowledgeable people:
- Totally wrong trigger lever (for a Bach 36B, at least; looks a little Yamaha-ish or Holton-ish?)
- Totally wrong saddle, screw and spring
- Modified Bach linkage (shortened and re-threaded at the ball end, it seems)
- Valve housing has no serial number
- Bell brace is in the wrong position (and isn't parallel to the F attachment tubing just behind it)
- If I sight down the bottom of the neckpipe from the tuning slide to the slide receiver, it’s obvious that the tubing sections, slide receiver, and valve don’t line up.
Now I’m wondering what happened at some point. I’m not the original owner of the horn, and when I bought it twenty-odd years ago I had no personal experience with F attachments (really, I still don’t. This is the only 36B I've ever studied up close). Clearly, someone went to a lot of trouble here, but to what end I can't tell.
So, before I do anything else, I need some help to figure out what I’m working with. My goal was, and still is, to replace or repair the trigger lever.
Thanks in advance.
This is my corp. Bach 36B (s/n 9182). Some of you may recall that I was asking for a source for a replacement trigger lever on the forums awhile back, since mine has a worn-out pivot screw hole.
Well, one thing leads to another, and this is what I learn after exchanging emails with a couple of knowledgeable people:
- Totally wrong trigger lever (for a Bach 36B, at least; looks a little Yamaha-ish or Holton-ish?)
- Totally wrong saddle, screw and spring
- Modified Bach linkage (shortened and re-threaded at the ball end, it seems)
- Valve housing has no serial number
- Bell brace is in the wrong position (and isn't parallel to the F attachment tubing just behind it)
- If I sight down the bottom of the neckpipe from the tuning slide to the slide receiver, it’s obvious that the tubing sections, slide receiver, and valve don’t line up.
Now I’m wondering what happened at some point. I’m not the original owner of the horn, and when I bought it twenty-odd years ago I had no personal experience with F attachments (really, I still don’t. This is the only 36B I've ever studied up close). Clearly, someone went to a lot of trouble here, but to what end I can't tell.
So, before I do anything else, I need some help to figure out what I’m working with. My goal was, and still is, to replace or repair the trigger lever.
Thanks in advance.
- elmsandr
- Posts: 1373
- Joined: Mar 23, 2018
Meh?
Some people just prefer under the thumb triggers. Sure, that might be a Holton lever and saddle… Bach also made them like that in NY, Mt Vernon, and Early Elkhart years. If your thumb is in the right place… don’t change a thing. If you want a slight mod to change the position, go ahead, make it fit your hand. I don’t think there is anything inherently superior to the current Bach design worth “restoring” it to,
Cheers,
Andy
Some people just prefer under the thumb triggers. Sure, that might be a Holton lever and saddle… Bach also made them like that in NY, Mt Vernon, and Early Elkhart years. If your thumb is in the right place… don’t change a thing. If you want a slight mod to change the position, go ahead, make it fit your hand. I don’t think there is anything inherently superior to the current Bach design worth “restoring” it to,
Cheers,
Andy
- elmsandr
- Posts: 1373
- Joined: Mar 23, 2018
(And looking at the bracing of the F attachment, that’s probably original. Worth more if you don’t mess with it.)
What’s the bell engraving say?
Andy
What’s the bell engraving say?
Andy
- droffilcal
- Posts: 76
- Joined: Aug 08, 2018
I’m with Andy. If it fits your hand and works well, then leave it alone. It actually looks like pretty nice work to me, anyways……..
- Elow
- Posts: 1924
- Joined: Mar 02, 2020
Looks like a clean early corp horn to me, that serial number is pretty low so bach was probably still using mt vernon parts
- u_2genbone
- Posts: 3
- Joined: May 18, 2021
[quote="Elow"]Looks like a clean early corp horn to me, that serial number is pretty low so bach was probably still using mt vernon parts[/quote]
Yes, not wrong; just an earlier configuration.
Yes, not wrong; just an earlier configuration.
- Estraven
- Posts: 122
- Joined: May 05, 2021
[quote="elmsandr"](And looking at the bracing of the F attachment, that’s probably original. Worth more if you don’t mess with it.)
What’s the bell engraving say?
Andy[/quote]
What’s the bell engraving say?
Andy[/quote]
- Estraven
- Posts: 122
- Joined: May 05, 2021
[quote="elmsandr"]Meh?
Some people just prefer under the thumb triggers. Sure, that might be a Holton lever and saddle… Bach also made them like that in NY, Mt Vernon, and Early Elkhart years. If your thumb is in the right place… don’t change a thing. If you want a slight mod to change the position, go ahead, make it fit your hand. I don’t think there is anything inherently superior to the current Bach design worth “restoring” it to,
Cheers,
Andy[/quote]
Thanks,
Actually I'm not interested in changing the configuration, I only want to get the slop out of the trigger screw hole. I could easily do this by drilling out the hole then inserting a brass bushing of suitable inside/outside diameter (I have watchmaker skills and tools, you see; this sort of thing is trivial to us).
I could also get another Bach link and shorten it in the same way, I suppose, to move the trigger. But the bushing would be best. I originally thought that simply replacing the trigger would be the easy (but expensive) fix, I now know that that won't work.
Some people just prefer under the thumb triggers. Sure, that might be a Holton lever and saddle… Bach also made them like that in NY, Mt Vernon, and Early Elkhart years. If your thumb is in the right place… don’t change a thing. If you want a slight mod to change the position, go ahead, make it fit your hand. I don’t think there is anything inherently superior to the current Bach design worth “restoring” it to,
Cheers,
Andy[/quote]
Thanks,
Actually I'm not interested in changing the configuration, I only want to get the slop out of the trigger screw hole. I could easily do this by drilling out the hole then inserting a brass bushing of suitable inside/outside diameter (I have watchmaker skills and tools, you see; this sort of thing is trivial to us).
I could also get another Bach link and shorten it in the same way, I suppose, to move the trigger. But the bushing would be best. I originally thought that simply replacing the trigger would be the easy (but expensive) fix, I now know that that won't work.
- CalgaryTbone
- Posts: 1460
- Joined: May 10, 2018
I played a Bach 50B for a short while in high school with that exact style of trigger. It was an early Elkhart and it belonged to a band I was playing with. It also had an original case that was huge - looked like a square King case with the Bach colors and trim. Kind of a slow valve - long throw.
Jim Scott
Jim Scott
- hornbuilder
- Posts: 1384
- Joined: May 02, 2018
That horn is all standard configuration for very early Elkhart production. Nothing about it is "wrong". That is how they were made.
As to the misalignment of parts, that is also pretty common, from "any" era of Bach production.
As to the misalignment of parts, that is also pretty common, from "any" era of Bach production.
- whitbey
- Posts: 654
- Joined: Mar 23, 2018
[quote="Estraven"]<QUOTE author="elmsandr" post_id="152482" time="1625710785" user_id="147">
Meh?
Some people just prefer under the thumb triggers. Sure, that might be a Holton lever and saddle… Bach also made them like that in NY, Mt Vernon, and Early Elkhart years. If your thumb is in the right place… don’t change a thing. If you want a slight mod to change the position, go ahead, make it fit your hand. I don’t think there is anything inherently superior to the current Bach design worth “restoring” it to,
Cheers,
Andy[/quote]
Thanks,
Actually I'm not interested in changing the configuration, I only want to get the slop out of the trigger screw hole. I could easily do this by drilling out the hole then inserting a brass bushing of suitable inside/outside diameter (I have watchmaker skills and tools, you see; this sort of thing is trivial to us).
I could also get another Bach link and shorten it in the same way, I suppose, to move the trigger. But the bushing would be best. I originally thought that simply replacing the trigger would be the easy (but expensive) fix, I now know that that won't work.
</QUOTE>
My bass bone had a similar issue. The horn was made in the 60's then converted to a 2 valve. The f key lever hole for the pivot became oval. I was thinking to fix it the same way as I also fix things. Decided to have my tech do it. I was taking several other horns in for several repairs anyways. I missed exactly what he did, but is was something with the pin. Net result. It is perfect and quiet. Too good not to tell you.
The tech is tops.
Kevin Powers, 734/242-4914 cell734/915-5606
He is in Monroe Michigan.
Meh?
Some people just prefer under the thumb triggers. Sure, that might be a Holton lever and saddle… Bach also made them like that in NY, Mt Vernon, and Early Elkhart years. If your thumb is in the right place… don’t change a thing. If you want a slight mod to change the position, go ahead, make it fit your hand. I don’t think there is anything inherently superior to the current Bach design worth “restoring” it to,
Cheers,
Andy[/quote]
Thanks,
Actually I'm not interested in changing the configuration, I only want to get the slop out of the trigger screw hole. I could easily do this by drilling out the hole then inserting a brass bushing of suitable inside/outside diameter (I have watchmaker skills and tools, you see; this sort of thing is trivial to us).
I could also get another Bach link and shorten it in the same way, I suppose, to move the trigger. But the bushing would be best. I originally thought that simply replacing the trigger would be the easy (but expensive) fix, I now know that that won't work.
</QUOTE>
My bass bone had a similar issue. The horn was made in the 60's then converted to a 2 valve. The f key lever hole for the pivot became oval. I was thinking to fix it the same way as I also fix things. Decided to have my tech do it. I was taking several other horns in for several repairs anyways. I missed exactly what he did, but is was something with the pin. Net result. It is perfect and quiet. Too good not to tell you.
The tech is tops.
Kevin Powers, 734/242-4914 cell734/915-5606
He is in Monroe Michigan.
- etbone
- Posts: 117
- Joined: Feb 13, 2019
Imho, the actuator arm/connector, between trigger and rotor, could be improved (4th picture). It looks like, it is in a bind.
Arm should be closer, to parallel, to the neckpipe. Then again, your happy, why change it.
Arm should be closer, to parallel, to the neckpipe. Then again, your happy, why change it.
- hornbuilder
- Posts: 1384
- Joined: May 02, 2018
PS. To correct the loose spindle, the solution is to either replace the spindle bushing on the lever, (as you mentioned) or, replace the screw with an oversize screw.
- Estraven
- Posts: 122
- Joined: May 05, 2021
My bass bone had a similar issue. The horn was made in the 60's then converted to a 2 valve. The f key lever hole for the pivot became oval. I was thinking to fix it the same way as I also fix things. Decided to have my tech do it. I was taking several other horns in for several repairs anyways. I missed exactly what he did, but is was something with the pin. Net result. It is perfect and quiet. Too good not to tell you.
The tech is tops.
Kevin Powers, 734/242-4914 cell734/915-5606
He is in Monroe Michigan.
Thanks so much, it's better for someone to do this who has done it before.
- Estraven
- Posts: 122
- Joined: May 05, 2021
[quote="Elow"]Looks like a clean early corp horn to me, that serial number is pretty low so bach was probably still using mt vernon parts[/quote]
It looks clean because I had it rebuilt by Jim Darby at Capital Music in Montgomery, AL about twenty years ago. Before that, it was not so clean <span class="emoji" title=":wink:">😉</span>
It looks clean because I had it rebuilt by Jim Darby at Capital Music in Montgomery, AL about twenty years ago. Before that, it was not so clean <span class="emoji" title=":wink:">😉</span>
- Estraven
- Posts: 122
- Joined: May 05, 2021
Well, I fixed my problem.
I bought a 42B lever of the same configuration and installed it on my old 36B and its a better fit than the 36B lever in many ways.
The 42B lever is longer on both sides of the pivot than the 36B lever, which shortens the throw and causes the lever to rest on the thumb tip, rather than the thumb knuckle, so its much easier for me to operate with my arthritic thumb. The bend in the 42B lever also helps get it to a better position.
Most important, of course, it doesn’t have a worn out pivot hole and so doesnt strike the gooseneck brace when operated.
I bought a 42B lever of the same configuration and installed it on my old 36B and its a better fit than the 36B lever in many ways.
The 42B lever is longer on both sides of the pivot than the 36B lever, which shortens the throw and causes the lever to rest on the thumb tip, rather than the thumb knuckle, so its much easier for me to operate with my arthritic thumb. The bend in the 42B lever also helps get it to a better position.
Most important, of course, it doesn’t have a worn out pivot hole and so doesnt strike the gooseneck brace when operated.