Buescher question

dxhall · by **dxhall** » 2021-08-15 6:49 p.m.

Here’s a photo of a Buescher trombone for sale near me. The serial number is from about 1926. What pitch would the “LP” be? It’s a TIS horn. Could it be brought to A440?

TexasTBone · by **TexasTBone** » 2021-08-15 7:12 p.m.

410 is the model number.

BGuttman · by **BGuttman** » 2021-08-15 7:42 p.m.

LP is low pitch, which is slightly below A440. Worst case you may need to get something shortened so that it plays at A442 with the tuning slide all the way in, but you may be able to play at A440.

These horns have beautiful engraving, but often are rather small bore (common at the time) and may sound a bit "shrill" next to more modern instruments.

TexasTBone · by **TexasTBone** » 2021-08-15 9:33 p.m.

I have a model 38 made in 1925. It's a really lovely horn, but it's size gives it a more alto trombone sound.

dxhall · by **dxhall** » 2021-08-15 10:22 p.m.

Here’s another photo. I fear the horn is a neat piece of history, but not much more.

TexasTBone · by **TexasTBone** » 2021-08-15 10:29 p.m.

Steve Dillon seems to think they're worth something:

~~[url]~~https://www.dillonmusic.com/buescher/

I'm not sure why his particular horn is worth three grand, when most Buescher trombones sell for $100-500, if they sell at all.

BGuttman · by **BGuttman** » 2021-08-15 11:35 p.m.

[quote="TexasTBone"]Steve Dillon seems to think they're worth something:

~~[url]~~https://www.dillonmusic.com/buescher/

I'm not sure why his particular horn is worth three grand, when most Buescher trombones sell for $100-500, if they sell at all.[/quote]

Most of the expensive horns at Dillon have some unique provenance -- played by a famous player.

Is that engraving "Buescher Grand"? If so, Grand is the model.

Brent · by **Brent** » 2022-02-13 7:05 a.m.

[quote="BGuttman"]LP is low pitch, which is slightly below A440. Worst case you may need to get something shortened so that it plays at A442 with the tuning slide all the way in, but you may be able to play at A440.

These horns have beautiful engraving, but often are rather small bore (common at the time) and may sound a bit "shrill" next to more modern instruments.[/quote]
Isn't it true that LP (Low Pitch) means: A = 440Hz (ie. not "slightly below") = standard modern pitch?

Or, do orchestras today (or in some countries) tune to a different Hz?...

BGuttman · by **BGuttman** » 2022-02-13 7:16 a.m.

[quote="Brent"]<QUOTE author="BGuttman" post_id="155084" time="1629070923" user_id="53">
LP is low pitch, which is slightly below A440. Worst case you may need to get something shortened so that it plays at A442 with the tuning slide all the way in, but you may be able to play at A440.

These horns have beautiful engraving, but often are rather small bore (common at the time) and may sound a bit "shrill" next to more modern instruments.[/quote]
Isn't it true that LP (Low Pitch) means: A = 440Hz (ie. not "slightly below") = standard modern pitch?

Or, do orchestras today (or in some countries) tune to a different Hz?...
</QUOTE>
Low Pitch is around A = 435 Hz.. Many orchestras tune to 442 or 444 Hertz and so the LP instrument becomes flat even with the tuning slide all the way in.

Brent · by **Brent** » 2022-02-13 9:23 a.m.

BGuttman, I won't dispute what "many orchestras" do, but, it is still my understanding that (at least in the Saxophone world I normally inhabit) Low Pitch = A: 440 Hz. Not more, not less.

ie. Every "LP" Sax ever made is compatible in todays music world.

ie. It's "HP" that you NEVER want to see inscribed near the Serial Number.

I'm quite certain that when this Buescher Trombone was made, it wanted to be known as A = 440 Hz, rather than HP which = 456 Hz (now obsolete almost everywhere).

I'm told that many 'HP' Trombones (eg. vintage English ones) CAN be converted to 'LP' easily and cheaply by swapping out their Tuning Slide for a longer one. This Buescher Trombone is already good to go. Cheers...

DougHulme · by **DougHulme** » 2022-02-13 9:48 a.m.

I agree with Brent. I am old enough to remember a whole industry when I was about ten converting High Pitch instruments to Low pitch. High pitch was standard up to the end of the second world war. I was too young to play but remember the comical situation where two bands came together for a joint concert to find one was in HP the other LP. There was always debate on how effective or should I say accurate these conversions were but they seemed to have a way of adding the extra tubing and it wasnt to the tuning slides either. I still have the instrument I had when I was eight that was converted when I was about 11. It plays quite accurately to A:440 HZ. As has been said about the Buescher it has a bell barely bigger than a cornets and such a tiny bore I find it difficult to play. that said though the soloists of the day like Maise Wiggins got huge tonal sounds out of them anyway.

BGuttman · by **BGuttman** » 2022-02-13 12:01 p.m.

I have a G Bass in Low Pitch and a pair of 1910 patent Kings: one in High Pitch and one in Low Pitch. The G Bass refuses to play in tune at A=440. It is flat. The two Kings have different length slide sections and bell sections. The High Pitch slide on the Low Pitch bell comes close to in tune, but the whole Low Pitch setup is flat.

At one time trombones were sold with two tuning slides to accommodate High Pitch and Low Pitch. I've never owned a horn with this setup, but I suspect that the Low Pitch tuning slide may be OK for modern music while the High Pitch tuning slide has intonation problems because of the different relationship between slide and bell sections.

Note that High Pitch varied from A=452 to A=456. Must have been a challenge for High Pitch players back in the day.

Brent · by **Brent** » 2022-02-13 1:01 p.m.

Bruce, let's agree that your Low Pitch Trombones were INTENDED to play in tune at A:440 Hz. Unfortunately, just like many LP Saxophones, intonation throughout their range can be problematic. SOMETIMES the problem can be solved with a different style of mouthpiece; or lipping adjustment, or in the case of Trombones - different lengths of Slide or Tuning Slide. But other times, SOLO busking (or tuning the other instruments to the offending one) might be the only solution found. [I'm yet to find out if my newly acquired 'Triumphonic' G Bass Trombone from 1926 was "converted" or may have been an LP export to Australia by the Salvation Army from day one - the Tuning Slide is frozen and I haven't had it tested yet. Happy to join the G Bass Cult though]. Cheers...

CalgaryTbone · by **CalgaryTbone** » 2022-02-13 1:18 p.m.

Bruce is correct - A440 wasn't really the standard until a bit later into the 20th Century. A lot of the low pitch instruments are actually built a few cents lower than 440, so some will work at 440 but some of them are still too low even with the tuning slide in all the way. The move towards a standard of A440 wasn't a straight line - different manufacturers had their own idea of what was low pitch, and many of them were lower than 440.

Jim Scott

DougHulme · by **DougHulme** » 2022-02-13 1:38 p.m.

So was there a debate historically on what was actually a note called Bb? Never mind manufacturers interpretation of what they thought their instruments were doing I'm thinking just the note itself however it was produced. I mean would a piano tuner, for instance in 1815 have the same note in mind as his successor in 2015?

Brent · by **Brent** » 2022-02-13 1:52 p.m.

[quote="CalgaryTbone"]Bruce is correct - A440 wasn't really the standard until a bit later into the 20th Century. A lot of the low pitch instruments are actually built a few cents lower than 440, so some will work at 440 but some of them are still too low even with the tuning slide in all the way. The move towards a standard of A440 wasn't a straight line - different manufacturers had their own idea of what was low pitch, and many of them were lower than 440.

Jim Scott[/quote]
That's a good explanation Jim. I'm just surprised that for those "few cents lower" LP instruments, tuning to other LP instruments DID NOT ALLOW for tuning HIGHER than those lower few cents - but only allowed tuning lower.

Go figure...

ithinknot · by **ithinknot** » 2022-02-13 2:08 p.m.

[quote="DougHulme"]So was there a debate historically on what was actually a note called Bb? Never mind manufacturers interpretation of what they thought their instruments were doing I'm thinking just the note itself however it was produced. I mean would a piano tuner, for instance in 1815 have the same note in mind as his successor in 2015?[/quote]

Non-transposed 'A' has been everywhere between 350 and 500Hz during the last 500 years, depending on the place and purpose.

You'll get a general idea from the following review of the reference work in this area:

<LINK_TEXT text="https://www.historicbrass.org/edocman/h ... Errata.pdf">https://www.historicbrass.org/edocman/hbj-2003/HBSJ_2003_JL01_013_ReviewsErrata.pdf</LINK_TEXT>

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Buescher question