A great video

PosauneCat · 2021-08-27 1:31 p.m.

Post removed because I was warned that it would “ devolve into incredible nonsense.”

Admin, feel free to remove this. I was not able to delete it.

hyperbolica · by **hyperbolica** » 2021-08-27 2:20 p.m.

These discussions always devolve into incredible nonsense, and that doesn't appeal to me at all. Before that starts I do want to add that the air doesn't make the sound, the buzz makes the sound. To make a buzz with your lips that far apart, you'd have to be playing really low and/or really loud. Unless the air stream is much higher pressure and speed than humans can generate, the lips have to vibrate against one another, they can't vibrate against the air stream. Very low pitches allow the lips to move a lot, but not in the tenor range, where I assume his audience is focused. The bigger the aperture is when you start, the more you're going to need a hard attack to start the buzz.

You can't argue with his results, he's obviously a great player, but he may be exaggerating the size of the aperture.

Burgerbob · by **Burgerbob** » 2021-08-27 2:42 p.m.

[quote="PosauneCat"]Post removed because I was warned that it would “ devolve into incredible nonsense.”

[/quote]

well, that's disappointing. Just post it!

PosauneCat · by **PosauneCat** » 2021-08-27 2:49 p.m.

[quote="Burgerbob"]<QUOTE author="PosauneCat" post_id="156056" time="1630085486" user_id="11292">
Post removed because I was warned that it would “ devolve into incredible nonsense.”

[/quote]

well, that's disappointing. Just post it!
</QUOTE>

I haven’t been around this forum as long as most of you have, so I want to avoid internet bickering. My experience so far has been that it’s safer to read than to write. :-)

It was nothing y’all don’t already know. I found it interesting but not enough to cause a ruckus.

Burgerbob · by **Burgerbob** » 2021-08-27 2:56 p.m.

[quote="PosauneCat"]<QUOTE author="Burgerbob" post_id="156062" time="1630089754" user_id="3131">

well, that's disappointing. Just post it![/quote]

I haven’t been around this forum as long as most of you have, so I want to avoid internet bickering. My experience so far has been that it’s safer to read than to write. :-)

It was nothing y’all don’t already know. I found it interesting but not enough to cause a ruckus.
</QUOTE>

Well, you did remove it based on the post of 1 entire person... go ahead and post it!

SwissTbone · by **SwissTbone** » 2021-08-27 3:10 p.m.

Its a pity if people don't dare to say what they think on this forum because some people on here just can't articulate their opinion in a civilized manner. And also because some people can't accept other people's opinions.

I mean... we can discuss everything if we accept no one will ever be 100% right or wrong. There are shades of grey in life and it's what makes life enjoyable.

Discussing these different shades of Grey with respect would make the internet a better place. Unfortunately I think it's not the direction this forum seems to take and it makes me sad, because it could be a great place to hang out and discuss our passion.

hyperbolica · by **hyperbolica** » 2021-08-27 3:55 p.m.

Here's the video. It's worth watching.

<YOUTUBE id="vmVbHBjZIeM">https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vmVbHBjZIeM</YOUTUBE>

It's a good video, he's obviously a great player. I take this as one data point out of many. I'm not sure that being a great player and understanding what is physically happening are necessarily the same thing.

He's talking about some stuff that's pretty vague - support the air stream with the embouchure. It sounds good, but what does that mean. It seems to work as a metaphor for him, but I can't visualize what it means. What he's doing looks like a tuba embouchure. What I'm used to is somewhere between the "before" and "after" that he demonstrated. You have to have an opening between the lips, but for tenor trombone, not big enough for your pinky or even a pencil. Plus, it takes a lot of conditioning to get your lips to the point where they buzz well, and it might be good to differentiate between experienced players and beginners.

Plus, he's talking about efficiency. I don't know if that's a good measure or not. Surely efficiency is a good thing, but you can't be efficient at the cost of a good sound. I'd be more comfortable with it if he made that distinction.

The real problem is that the real problem is never just a single factor to the exclusion of everything else. It's several factors each on a continuum. Some factors are degrees of magnitude stronger than others, and some get ignored. That's why it's hard to discuss this stuff, because everybody focuses on something different, and efficiency is important to one guy while another assumes sound or volume or endurance or ability to bend pitches or play false tones is the most important factor.

I think these discussions are valuable, but not the way they happen here. When I do participate in these, it's usually just to say what I think and then leave. It's usually the same handful of people wind up way out in the weeds and way over their heads.

Anyone have a stop watch?

PosauneCat · by **PosauneCat** » 2021-08-27 5:13 p.m.

[quote="SwissTbone"]Its a pity if people don't dare to say what they think on this forum because some people on here just can't articulate their opinion in a civilized manner. And also because some people can't accept other people's opinions.
[/quote]

No one was being rude or uncivilized. In fact it was in a post by someone I enjoy quite a bit on the forum. I’m just not up for argument and debate today. It’s been a tough week. :-)

SwissTbone · by **SwissTbone** » 2021-08-28 2:37 a.m.

[quote="PosauneCat"]<QUOTE author="SwissTbone" post_id="156067" time="1630091452" user_id="62">
Its a pity if people don't dare to say what they think on this forum because some people on here just can't articulate their opinion in a civilized manner. And also because some people can't accept other people's opinions.
[/quote]

No one was being rude or uncivilized. In fact it was in a post by someone I enjoy quite a bit on the forum. I’m just not up for argument and debate today. It’s been a tough week. :-)
</QUOTE>

Yes. I understand that. It was just a general observation.

harrisonreed · by **harrisonreed** » 2021-08-28 3:44 a.m.

The video is great. He puts things in a way that I have never been able to, but I am 100% in agreement with him!

The embouchure is dictated by the airstream and supports it/is supported by it. Yes! I would say, the resistance from the horn completes your "buzz", your buzz isn't what's happening before the air hits the horn. His way of verbalizing is much better than mine. He is talking about a two way equilibrium between the air on one side of the embouchure, and the air on the other side of it, with as little interference from that embouchure as possible.

as brass players we focus too much about the corners. Yes!! The embouchure is not a 2D line that stretches tight across your teeth. We butt heads here over embouchure "strength", and I argue that the muscles in your face are weak, will always be weak, and the stronger you make them through "training" the tighter and weaker your embouchure will get.

My embouchure change was basically going from this, to this and he shows the difference between the tight, stretched embouchure, and the malleable "pucker" embouchure with a visible aperture. Yes!!! The embouchure is 3D. It needs vertical malleability and motion. I feel like the aperture he is showing is a bit wide, and probably isn't like that when he is actually playing, but who knows. That kind of embouchure is not going to get tired -- it will be supported on both sides by the air stream, and it's not under constant tension from "strength" in the corners.

He doesn't talk about angling the airstream with the tongue or jaw, but that's ok. He makes a specific point, and makes it well! We had a discussion about Type I vs Type II players on the old forum, and he makes the point I was trying to make! Type I is his "before", with all the resistance in the face. Type II is his after, where all the resistance would be from the horn. This guy must be a great teacher, because he demonstrates and verbalizes tough concepts Barney-style, with ease.

baileyman · by **baileyman** » 2021-08-28 7:21 a.m.

Yeah, great vid. I believe he's taken the same path I have, though he uses different words. (It seems everyone uses different words or different meanings for the same words even if they're doing the same thing.) I think he's basically saying the chops are just along for the ride as long as the aperture is formed, which is how I would say it. Relatedly, I saw a recent Wayne Bergeron vid where he said something like, "The chops are strong enough to cut off the air at any time. Sometimes up high you have to consciously open them up". It would be fun to see his MRI, as I wonder what he's doing with his tongue, or maybe he has already talked about tongue elsewhere?

Wilktone · by **Wilktone** » 2021-08-28 9:04 a.m.

I've watched some of Dion Tucker's YouTube channel before. He is a very fine musician and has played with some big names. It's worth listening to what he has to say, but I'm reminded of another thread currently active here right now talking about separating the wheat from the chaff. There's some good ideas and inspiration in his video, but there are also some things that I don't think are actually too helpful.

My major quibble is that the pursed lips/wide open hole formation he demonstrates to explain how he's currently playing doesn't look at all like what his lips and mouth corners look like when he's actually playing the horn.

Do players get too tight in the corners? Sure, but I wouldn't recommend someone try to adopt the embouchure formation he demonstrates (pursed lips) while you are actually playing. But like a lot of things, it depends on what you have been doing and where you need to go. If you are too far in one direction then intentionally going too far in another direction can potentially get you to where you need to be. Unless you actually start taking it too far in that direction, which can lead to its own set of problems. Some of you may remember my topic from a few months ago where Doug was helping me get the position of my mouth corners *less* puckered and away from what Tucker is demonstrating.

Dave

Doug_Elliott · by **Doug_Elliott** » 2021-08-28 1:10 p.m.

Yes, EVERY correction depends on what you're already doing.

I'd say about half of what he's saying is about half right.

Among other things, the whole idea of "aperture" is a myth. It's a continuous opening AND closing, causing puffs of air at the speed of the vibration.

The only "aperture" I've ever seen (through a clear mouthpiece) with that shape and size was around a low F or in the trigger range.

robcat2075 · by **robcat2075** » 2021-08-28 4:32 p.m.

I watched the video.

It has the appearance of information... he's looking into the camera and telling us stuff... and yet after it was done, if i were going to try to take up his plan there isn't much to act on except for the part about putting the pinkie in my mouth as an aperture gauge.

I tried that, it sounded god awful. I didn't feel like I was working less.

Of course I only tried it for a minute, but if it really is a game-changing everything-you-know-is-wrong thing... there ought to be at least some glimmer of better t, right?

If I were his student, how long would I have to try to make that work?

PosauneCat · by **PosauneCat** » 2021-08-28 4:35 p.m.

It seems there is one way to play the trombone correctly. BUT, there are as many ways to describe how that’s done as there are people to do it. Clearly, everyone has to walk the walk and find his/her own way.

PosauneCat · 2021-08-28 5:38 p.m.

At a party I recently talked to probably the best trombonist in Minneapolis. I may study with him this Fall. I told him about a lot of the confusion I’ve encountered trying to come back after a long time away from the horn and he said, “first, get off that f*#king trombone group!” We laughed about it but he got serious and said, honestly, there are perhaps a handful of helpful suggestions to be found there, but you have to put up with lots of unhelpful stuff too. I get what he’s saying and agree with some of it, but there are definitely some positives about it. I enjoy many of the people who post here and I think there’s some to be said for sharing with others who have like interests. But, I’d like to avoid the continual back and forth about what’s right and what’s wrong. As i said above, some of us have to find our own path. The bickering and dueling opinion stuff gets old.

I’m glad that I found the forum. Some good stuff has come from it. I found my current horn (Yamaha UGII) because a member saw one and sent me a link! That’s very cool. I’ve been turned on to some very interesting music, like Jacob Garchik’s work. I’m glad I met Doug Elliott here. I’m working on things he has shown me that are new ideas to me, and I got the best mouthpiece I’ve ever played on from him!! I also enjoy when people share their love of music in general. But, I hate the posts that, as Hyperbolica said, “devolve into incredible nonsense.” That’s the only reason I pulled the original post.

harrisonreed · by **harrisonreed** » 2021-08-28 6:29 p.m.

You keep apologizing and saying negative things about the forum but this thread has been great. Who cares about what "the pros" think about this forum? They all left over a decade ago, and it was not even this forum. You want their advice, you gotta pay. And they will just tell you to sit up straight, and buzz more.

Pros left the forum because it does indeed get ugly, but also because everyone is on equal footing here. It's too easy to be called out or say something you regret.

robcat2075 · by **robcat2075** » 2021-08-28 8:54 p.m.

[quote="PosauneCat"]he said, “first, get off that f*#king trombone group!”[/quote]

I'm sure he was just referring to that *old* trombone forum we used to use, not this shiny new one.

PosauneCat · 2021-08-29 12:46 a.m.

[quote="harrisonreed"]

You keep apologizing and saying negative things about the forum but this thread has been great.[/quote]

I actually said several things about what I enjoy on the forum. I even mentioned how I’ve benefitted and have been turned on to people and music I wasn’t familiar with before and have enjoyed. I think you missed that part. I wasn’t being negative about the forum as a whole.

Granted, I don’t get anything out of the same old arguments that get trotted out every time someone simply shares something they found interesting and/or helpful. Even if I thought something was utterly stupid, but someone else said they were helped by it, at worst I’d say, “doesn’t work for me, but I’m glad it helped you!”

I may not have anything of value to offer in these discussions of playing mechanics, but I have everything to gain from exploring. That’s all I’m trying to do.

PosauneCat · by **PosauneCat** » 2021-08-29 12:52 a.m.

[quote="robcat2075"]<QUOTE author="PosauneCat" post_id="156171" time="1630186734" user_id="11292">
he said, “first, get off that f*#king trombone group!”[/quote]

I'm sure he was just referring to that *old* trombone forum we used to use, not this shiny new one.
</QUOTE>

Right :-)

CaptEquinox · by **CaptEquinox** » 2021-08-29 5:52 p.m.

This is sort of off-topic, but there’s nothing wrong with this message board that the old trombone forum can’t fix, once it gets moved to the new co-location facility.

robcat2075 · by **robcat2075** » 2021-08-29 9:30 p.m.

Who is Mr. Chop Shop? I didn't catch a name.

Does he actually teach students in some capacity?

Posaunus · by **Posaunus** » 2021-08-30 12:40 a.m.

[quote="robcat2075"]Who is Mr. Chop Shop? I didn't catch a name.[/quote]

He clearly says that his name is Deion Tucker.

robcat2075 · by **robcat2075** » 2021-08-30 12:56 a.m.

[quote="Posaunus"]<QUOTE author="robcat2075" post_id="156244" time="1630287015" user_id="3697">
Who is Mr. Chop Shop? I didn't catch a name.[/quote]

He clearly says that his name is Deion Tucker.
</QUOTE>

Made you look.

His bio says this regarding teaching...

~~[url]~~

http://www.diontucker.com/about

As an educator, Dion has taught in over 20 New York City public schools through the Jazz at Lincoln Center’s Jazz For Young People program and was a faculty member at Jazz House Kids, a music education program in New Jersey fronted by Christian McBride. He also served as a clinician at the Snipes Academy of Arts and Design for hundreds of elementary school students, focusing on musical styles such as New Orleans jazz and Bebop, as well as jazz legends Louis Armstrong, Charlie Parker and Duke Ellington.

So... it doesn't sound like he has actual trombone students... or does it?

Elow · by **Elow** » 2021-08-30 1:05 a.m.

My school has local trombonists come to teach my section, am i not an actual trombone player?

slideman · by **slideman** » 2021-08-30 4:54 a.m.

My trombone sound in the bottom two octaves is best (big and focused) on a small bore tenor when I play a 12C mouthpiece with an open aperture. The mouthpiece has a low placement where the inside of the mouthpiece rim, top and bottom, are at the edge of each vermilion. No shifting occurs and natural slurs are easy. My aperture is more like a horizontal ellipse than a circle.

robcat2075 · by **robcat2075** » 2021-08-30 2:09 p.m.

[quote="Elow"]My school has local trombonists come to teach my section, am i not an actual trombone player?[/quote]

A player?

Are you really a student of those trombonists?

Do they come back the next week and every week and to monitor your individual progress and prescribe new actions based what they observe?

That is the sort of standard teacher-student arrangement I am wondering about.

I suspect very few of the trombone teachers here would say that workshopping a trombone section is the way that real trombone teaching happens.

My question is not whether Dion Tucker talks to players, it is whether he has students.

Does Mr. Tucker have trombone students that he has 1:1 relationships with, where his ideas about embouchure and whatever are put to into practice and need to show results?

WilliamLang · by **WilliamLang** » 2021-08-30 3:45 p.m.

e-mail him and ask.

Wilktone · by **Wilktone** » 2021-08-31 8:59 a.m.

[quote="robcat2075"]Does Mr. Tucker have trombone students that he has 1:1 relationships with, where his ideas about embouchure and whatever are put to into practice and need to show results?[/quote]

I understand your point, but as long as the ideas are sound it shouldn't matter. That said, I suspect that Mr. Tucker has workshopped his ideas primarily with his own playing.

Since this topic started I've gone back and watched (or rewatched) a few other videos on his channel. In spite of what I think is some misinformation and perhaps not great advice for most players, I really enjoy his videos. He's a great player, I like his style and production, and I find them inspiring. I just wish that the information he provides was based more on fact and less on how he thinks he plays. If you don't take his suggestions literally you might find his videos helpful.

robcat2075 · by **robcat2075** » 2021-08-31 10:07 a.m.

[quote="WilliamLang"]e-mail him and ask.[/quote]

Done. He has responded, in part...

Thanks for reaching out. Yes, I absolutely do offer private lessons. I

teach people of all levels. The lessons are tailored towards each

individuals needs. I’ll do my best to help you achieve whatever goals you

may have...

baileyman · by **baileyman** » 2021-08-31 10:52 a.m.

[quote="baileyman"]... (It seems everyone uses different words or different meanings for the same words even if they're doing the same thing.) ...[/quote]

Here I want to quote myself as we have had a few absolute-knowledge posts since.

Wilktone · by **Wilktone** » 2021-08-31 2:00 p.m.

[quote="baileyman"]<QUOTE author="baileyman" post_id="156123" time="1630149679" user_id="160">
... (It seems everyone uses different words or different meanings for the same words even if they're doing the same thing.) ...[/quote]

Here I want to quote myself as we have had a few absolute-knowledge posts since.
</QUOTE>

I don't want to dog-pile on Mr. Tucker's video. Again, I find his presentation to be inspiring and enjoyable to watch. But I many of the points that he's discussing factually are really just descriptions of his personal playing sensations. There's nothing wrong with teaching via analogy and how it feels to you, but if you're not there in person to help adjust when someone gets it too far or otherwise wrong, it can just as easily make things worse.

Which is why I feel it's best to be as objective as possible and clear in our definitions.

But as far as using different words/meanings to say the same thing goes...

At about ~~[url=https://youtu.be/vmVbHBjZIeM?t=120]~~2:00 into the video Tucker states, "Now my embouchure went from looking like this [shows his lips in a closed position], to this [purses his lips forward and opens a hole in his mouth]."

This is misleading in a couple of ways. First, he doesn't qualify what the functioning aperture is actually doing:

[quote="Doug Elliott"]Among other things, the whole idea of "aperture" is a myth. It's a continuous opening AND closing, causing puffs of air at the speed of the vibration.[/quote]

The above quote from Doug is ~~[url=https://youtu.be/NZYuiPLSuPw]~~objectively true. It's possible that players can get a good result from imagining their lip position in the open position that Tucker is demonstrating, but that's not going to be what's actually happening. If I recall correctly, in another one of his videos he makes a passing reference to the opening and closing of the embouchure aperture, but in the video we're discussing he presents the aperture as if it's a hole that is held open by the lips.

Secondly, compare what his mouth corners look like when he demonstrates how he currently thinks about lip position with what they look like when he's actually playing the horn. When he plays, his lip formation outside the mouthpiece while he's playing the horn looks much closer to the demonstration with his lips in a closed position. In fact, I find his first demonstration of what he "used to do" to look closer to how I prefer to teach.

But as I mentioned above, how you describe it can depend on what the student is already doing and where they need to go. Sometimes an extreme description is helpful, sometimes a more subtle one works better.

[quote="Doug Elliott"]The only "aperture" I've ever seen (through a clear mouthpiece) with that shape and size was around a low F or in the trigger range.[/quote]

I don't have any photos of the low F handy, but here's a low Bb (above the low F). Keep in mind the aperture you can see if just where I happened to catch it during the cycle of opening and closing.

At about ~~[url=https://youtu.be/vmVbHBjZIeM?t=141]~~2:21 Mr. Tucker states, "...the embouchure should not form the air stream, the air stream should form the embouchure."

Again, this may be an analogy that people can find useful, but it's pretty vague and doesn't make sense to me. The engine shouldn't form the fuel, the fuel forms the engine? If I were to reword the point I think he's trying to make I would say that the air is what sets the lips to vibrating.

"The primary function of the embouchure is to support the air stream."

I have to disagree with this statement. The purpose of the embouchure is to vibrate and create the standing wave inside the instrument. The air being blown against the lips sets the lips to vibrating. The aperture is blown open and then due, in part, to the lips being held firm the lips close again and the cycle repeats. This results in a pressure wave traveling through the instrument, which gets reflected back to the lips. When the cycle matches the standing pressure wave inside the instrument we get the focused pitch we want. The embouchure and air work together, in conjunction.

His discussion about the mouth corners and aperture later in the video are OK, I guess. I agree that if our lips are too tight that we can hinder the flow of the air past the lips, but there are also problems if your lips are too loose. Talking about how the embouchure muscles function in conjunction with each other is fine, but there is empirical evidence that suggests the bulk of the effort among professional brass players is just under the mouth corners and around the chin.

My criticisms aside, if what he's saying resonates with you and gets you moving in the right direction, great! My advice is to caution you to understand that analogy and playing sensations don't always equate to what's actually happening, nor are they universally effective.

Dave

Doug_Elliott · by **Doug_Elliott** » 2021-08-31 2:28 p.m.

When I was a small child and heard the term "colored people," that's exactly what I imagined and wondered why I never saw any.

slideman · by **slideman** » 2021-09-01 1:34 a.m.

[quote="Wilktone"]

This is misleading in a couple of ways. First, he doesn't qualify what the functioning aperture is actually doing:

<QUOTE author="Doug Elliott" post_id="156154" time="1630170614" user_id="51">
Among other things, the whole idea of "aperture" is a myth. It's a continuous opening AND closing, causing puffs of air at the speed of the vibration.[/quote]

The above quote from Doug is ~~[url=https://youtu.be/NZYuiPLSuPw]~~objectively true.
</QUOTE>

The notion that an aperture must close during the course of playing is incorrect--at least on small bore tenors below :trebleclef: :space2: .

Doug_Elliott · by **Doug_Elliott** » 2021-09-01 1:48 a.m.

"Must" or not, the high speed films done by Lloyd Leno in the 1970's showed that it does close, on all the subjects he filmed.

30,000 frames per second. Using film back then.

slideman · by **slideman** » 2021-09-01 2:14 a.m.

They must have forgotten to call me for that recording. Although, back in the 70's I was using the typical high mouthpiece placement that allowed me play high notes, but produced (for me) an uninspiring sound. I can take a selfie to show where the mouthpiece presses to my lips. Considering the mouthpiece inner width, there's no way upper and lower vermilion can reach together.

Wilktone · by **Wilktone** » 2021-09-01 8:31 a.m.

[quote="slideman"]The notion that an aperture must close during the course of playing is incorrect--at least on small bore tenors below .[/quote]

Here’s the link to Leno’s film again. Maybe it *feels* to you like the aperture isn’t closing, but if it isn’t, there would be no sound.

<YOUTUBE id="NZYuiPLSuPw">https://youtu.be/NZYuiPLSuPw</YOUTUBE>

robcat2075 · by **robcat2075** » 2021-09-01 8:52 a.m.

I wonder if anyone can "freebuzz" with an open aperture. That would show that the lips needn't close.

But it's probably impossible.

CaptEquinox · by **CaptEquinox** » 2021-09-01 11:28 a.m.

Common sense idea? If you form your chops (lips together) and there is no blow, there’s consequently no aperture. There’s only a potential aperture at that point. Once the blow starts, the shape of aperture will be determined by the supporting muscles.

Doug_Elliott · by **Doug_Elliott** » 2021-09-01 12:51 p.m.

[quote="CaptEquinox"]Common sense idea? If you form your chops (lips together) and there is no blow, there’s consequently no aperture. There’s only a potential aperture at that point. Once the blow starts, the shape of aperture will be determined by the supporting muscles.[/quote]
Yes, and also determined by the inherent texture and shape of your particular lips - everybody's lips are different.

brumpone · by **brumpone** » 2021-09-01 2:24 p.m.

[quote="robcat2075"]I wonder if anyone can "freebuzz" with an open aperture. That would show that the lips needn't close.

But it's probably impossible.[/quote]

It seems like that would be whistling

slideman · by **slideman** » 2021-09-01 6:05 p.m.

[quote="Wilktone"]Maybe it *feels* to you like the aperture isn’t closing, but if it isn’t, there would be no sound.
[/quote]

The sound is generated from the corners buzzing. The center where air passes does not close.

harrisonreed · by **harrisonreed** » 2021-09-01 6:10 p.m.

<ATTACHMENT filename="200w.gif" index="0">~~[attachment=0]~~200w.gif</ATTACHMENT>

None of that is what is making the sound you hear from the trombone. Not the buzzing, not the aperture, and not the corners. Except maybe in 5th grade band class. Nor is the OP video claiming that the aperture stays open the entire time he's playing. He was just trying to get people to visualize that the embouchure needs to be less spread horizontally, and more open vertically.

Here is someone who is talking about the exact same thing as the OP video, in a different way. A less elegant way, I would argue, but the person in this video has significantly more "creds" than the other guy. Being that he is the professor at the Royal Stockholm Music Academy, and has like 25+ years of professional orchestral career experience, and is one of the best trombone performers alive today, maybe we can cut the ChopShop dude some slack:

<YOUTUBE id="iiUwhLxbmPQ">~~[media]~~https://youtu.be/iiUwhLxbmPQ</YOUTUBE>

robcat2075 · by **robcat2075** » 2021-09-01 7:06 p.m.

[quote="harrisonreed"]Here is someone who is talking about the exact same thing...[/quote]

Is he even doing what he claims to be doing?

When he plays his low notes the part of his mouth we can see is in a frown shape with the corners flopped down and then he goes into a tight grimace face for the high notes. :idk:

There is no way he is doing the same thing for high and low .

harrisonreed · by **harrisonreed** » 2021-09-01 7:16 p.m.

[quote="robcat2075"]<QUOTE author="harrisonreed" post_id="156494" time="1630534224" user_id="3642">
Here is someone who is talking about the exact same thing...[/quote]

Is he even doing what he claims to be doing?

When he plays his low notes the part of his mouth we can see is in a frown shape with the corners flopped down and then he goes into a tight grimace face for the high notes. :idk:

There is no way he is doing the same thing for high and low .
</QUOTE>

Exactly. He is taking about the same concept, demonstrating something that isn't at all what he is talking about, and had way more "creds".

Your issue with ChopShop was that he has no students or creds, but his video is far superior. And people still don't know what he's trying to explain.

Doug_Elliott · by **Doug_Elliott** » 2021-09-01 7:24 p.m.

It may be useful to point out that there is a distinct difference between the resonance characteristics and frequencies of a tube that is open on both ends vs a tube that is closed on one end. If the lips truly did not close, you would have a tube open on both ends. But that's not how brass instruments work.

Even if you THINK your lips aren't closing, the Bernoulli effect will make them close and open again as you blow air through. Without closing, there will be no vibration which IS the source of sound.

And where did this idea "The sound is generated from the corners buzzing" come from? WTF?

[quote="slideman"]<QUOTE author="Wilktone" post_id="156446" time="1630499483" user_id="220">
Maybe it *feels* to you like the aperture isn’t closing, but if it isn’t, there would be no sound.
[/quote]

The sound is generated from the corners buzzing. The center where air passes does not close.
</QUOTE>

harrisonreed · by **harrisonreed** » 2021-09-01 7:25 p.m.

[quote="slideman"]<QUOTE author="Wilktone" post_id="156446" time="1630499483" user_id="220">
Maybe it *feels* to you like the aperture isn’t closing, but if it isn’t, there would be no sound.
[/quote]

The sound is generated from the corners buzzing. The center where air passes does not close.
</QUOTE>

^

From here. I think this is a novel concept born at this very instant. :shock:

Completely contrary to physics.

robcat2075 · by **robcat2075** » 2021-09-01 9:58 p.m.

[quote="harrisonreed"]

Exactly. He is taking about the same concept, demonstrating something that isn't at all what he is talking about, and had way more "creds".

Your issue with ChopShop was that he has no students or creds, but his video is far superior. And people still don't know what he's trying to explain.[/quote]

It's really not clear what you are proposing anymore.

harrisonreed · by **harrisonreed** » 2021-09-01 11:32 p.m.

[quote="robcat2075"]<QUOTE author="harrisonreed" post_id="156498" time="1630538191" user_id="3642">

Exactly. He is taking about the same concept, demonstrating something that isn't at all what he is talking about, and had way more "creds".

Your issue with ChopShop was that he has no students or creds, but his video is far superior. And people still don't know what he's trying to explain.[/quote]

It's really not clear what you are proposing anymore.
</QUOTE>

I'm just illustrating that you don't like the concept being discussed no matter who is teaching it, because you are taking them too literally. That, and the fact that it has nothing to do with teaching credentials. ChopShop isn't advocating that you actually play with your aperture spaced the size of your pinky. Calling the guys credentials into question was uncalled for and I was trying to defend him. He illustrates how to go about opening up the embouchure in a much more organized and eloquent way than someone else with all the teaching credentials trying to teach the exact same thing.

If it's not for you, it's not for you and that is fair.

slideman · by **slideman** » 2021-09-02 2:57 a.m.

[quote="Doug Elliott"]It may be useful to point out that there is a distinct difference between the resonance characteristics and frequencies of a tube that is open on both ends vs a tube that is closed on one end. If the lips truly did not close, you would have a tube open on both ends. But that's not how brass instruments work.

Even if you THINK your lips aren't closing, the Bernoulli effect will make them close and open again as you blow air through. Without closing, there will be no vibration which IS the source of sound.

And where did this idea "The sound is generated from the corners buzzing" come from? WTF?
[/quote]

LOL! I doubt any laws of physics were broken blowing on a long brass pipe. Since this method worked so well for me, I assumed it was common with other players.

slideman · by **slideman** » 2021-09-02 2:59 a.m.

[quote="harrisonreed"]<QUOTE author="slideman" post_id="156493" time="1630533957" user_id="11141">

The sound is generated from the corners buzzing. The center where air passes does not close.[/quote]

^

From here. I think this is a novel concept born at this very instant. :shock:

Completely contrary to physics.
</QUOTE>

Again, I doubt any laws of physics are being broken. I've been playing this way for 30 years.

Burgerbob · by **Burgerbob** » 2021-09-02 3:09 a.m.

[quote="slideman"]

Again, I doubt any laws of physics are being broken. I've been playing this way for 30 years.[/quote]

I have no doubt you think you play like that, but...

slideman · by **slideman** » 2021-09-02 3:49 a.m.

[quote="Burgerbob"]

I have no doubt you think you play like that, but...[/quote]

Ha! It's not as complicated as everyone is making it. I'm not going to continue on this subject. It just struck me earlier in the thread that someone would think that the center of the lips needed to touch in order to play. It's contrary to how I've been playing for years.

Doug_Elliott · by **Doug_Elliott** » 2021-09-02 5:40 a.m.

But ... we don't know what you sound like.

Basbasun · by **Basbasun** » 2021-09-02 7:47 a.m.

We can take pictures on how the embouchure look before the blow. Before the actually playing start the lips can be open or closed. During the playing the lips are both closed and open depending on what part of the cycle we are looking at.

It is of course possible to start with closed lips or open lips, that should not be a problem for anybody to figure out.

Without kowing for sure, I think it is possible to play without the lips not closing completely. It is somtimes done in singing with a kind of whispering voice.

I think that playing like slideman say he is doing is quite possible. I am not sure that is what he is doing, I would like to listen to his playing though. Also a mrs video would be nice.

Years ago I was asked to play with a whispering sound on a recording for just a few bars. I think that I was doing just that, I think that the lips did not close in the middle of my chops.

Dave and I had a discoussion on this subject years ago on the old trombone forum. I did send him a copy of paper done at the Institute of Technology by profoessor Sundberg about singing. Sing can done without complitely closing the vocalfolds.

Wilktone · by **Wilktone** » 2021-09-02 9:14 a.m.

[quote="harrisonreed"]None of that is what is making the sound you hear from the trombone. Not the buzzing, not the aperture, and not the corners.[/quote]

Strictly speaking, the sound we hear is the vibrating column of air inside the instrument. But I do believe that it is the lips buzzing that excites the column of air. When the lips buzzing matches the resonance of the vibrating column of air we get the pitch we want to play in its most focused tone. So while it's true that the buzzing isn't the sound (the horn really isn't a megaphone), it's necessary. The aperture (meaning the opening AND closing hole in the lips) is necessary. The corners, at least among most professional players, appears to bear much of the brunt of the work at keeping the lips held into their proper position to play.

[quote="harrisonreed"]Nor is the OP video claiming that the aperture stays open the entire time he's playing.[/quote]

I suspect that you are right, but Tucker doesn't explicitly state that in the video in question. It's very easy to interpret what he's advising as "try to keep your aperture open while playing." While some players might find success making it "feel" like that's what they're doing, analogies and playing sensations are unreliable ways to teach unless you are there in person to fix a problem if they don't have the desired effect. I'm not opposed to instructing this way, per se. I'm personally much more likely to use analogies and describing playing sensations while teaching in person than I do online.

[quote="harrisonreed"]He was just trying to get people to visualize that the embouchure needs to be less spread horizontally, and more open vertically.[/quote]

In this case, I'm not as sure about your conclusion. Giving Tucker the most charitable interpretation in this instance, I would say that in one sentence you've done a better job of Tucker in his entire video describing his advice. That said. . .

[quote="Doug Elliott"]<QUOTE author="CaptEquinox" post_id="156458" time="1630510122" user_id="3793">
Common sense idea? If you form your chops (lips together) and there is no blow, there’s consequently no aperture. There’s only a potential aperture at that point. Once the blow starts, the shape of aperture will be determined by the supporting muscles.[/quote]
Yes, and also determined by the inherent texture and shape of your particular lips - everybody's lips are different.
</QUOTE>

. . . some folks want more of a horizontal spread and some want more of a vertical spread. And it will change according to range and volume and probably according to the individual player's point of development. And how it *feels* to be spread is going to be different from person to person. How a student reacts to being told to spread their embouchure more vertically is also going to depend on what they're already doing and where they need to be going.

[quote="harrisonreed"]ChopShop isn't advocating that you actually play with your aperture spaced the size of your pinky.[/quote]

But again, that isn't explicitly stated in his video. Even giving Tucker the most charitable interpretation of what that demonstration/exercise is supposed to be doing, I don't consider it to be a useful method of going about helping people in an instructional video without knowing in the first place that moving into the direction of a more open aperture while playing is what is really needed.

So to summarize my gripe on the above, it's not that I find this advice bad, I just don't feel that it's going to be helpful for most players. I think that there are better ways to go after this that require getting to see and hear what the student is doing first.

[quote="slideman"]Ha! It's not as complicated as everyone is making it. I'm not going to continue on this subject. It just struck me earlier in the thread that someone would think that the center of the lips needed to touch in order to play. It's contrary to how I've been playing for years.[/quote]

In light of the overwhelming evidence to the contrary, I doubt that what you are describing is what you're actually doing. Again, it may *feel* to you like the center of your lips never touch when you play, but if you want to believably claim that it is the burden of proof is on you to either demonstrate it conclusively or otherwise show evidence of this happening on another player.

[quote="Basbasun"]ave and I had a discoussion on this subject years ago on the old trombone forum. I did send him a copy of paper done at the Institute of Technology by profoessor Sundberg about singing. Sing can done without complitely closing the vocalfolds.[/quote]

Was it "Vocal tract and register changes analysed by real-time MRI in male professional singers — a pilot study?" I can't find the full paper on my hard drive, just other papers with reference to it. The abstract doesn't state anything about singing without the vocal folds closing.

Here's a video using strobe lighting to "slow down" the vocal folds while singing.

<YOUTUBE id="e-ovgL_fPVs">~~[media]~~https://youtu.be/e-ovgL_fPVs</YOUTUBE>

When he switches to falsetto the very top aperture of the vocal folds appears to stay open, but I'm not sure that that isn't just an artifact of the strobe light not catching the folds at their completely closed position.

My wife is a speech therapist. She confirms that it is possible to vocalize in a manner where the vocal folds don't actually fully come together like the above video, but it's an abnormal sound. She says it's common with stroke or Parkinson's patients.

So while it's possible that one could play trombone without the lips closing completely, I doubt that it's going to sound good or that it would be a good long term way to play.

Dave

Kbiggs · by **Kbiggs** » 2021-09-02 6:30 p.m.

Here is a slightly different approach to the topic. I am still thinking about and digesting this information, and I have yet to try anything suggested. More food for thought.

<LINK_TEXT text="https://kansasmusicreview.com/2018/06/2 ... d-playing/">https://kansasmusicreview.com/2018/06/27/practical-brass-physics-to-improve-your-teaching-and-playing/</LINK_TEXT>

Bach5G · by **Bach5G** » 2021-09-02 8:18 p.m.

[quote="Kbiggs"]Here is a slightly different approach to the topic. I am still thinking about and digesting this information, and I have yet to try anything suggested. More food for thought.

<LINK_TEXT text="https://kansasmusicreview.com/2018/06/2 ... d-playing/">https://kansasmusicreview.com/2018/06/27/practical-brass-physics-to-improve-your-teaching-and-playing/</LINK_TEXT>[/quote]

No buzz but, rather, smooth air, says Vizzutti. I don’t know what to make of that.

Wilktone · 2021-09-02 10:37 p.m.

[quote="Kbiggs"]Here is a slightly different approach to the topic. I am still thinking about and digesting this information, and I have yet to try anything suggested. More food for thought.

<LINK_TEXT text="https://kansasmusicreview.com/2018/06/2 ... d-playing/">https://kansasmusicreview.com/2018/06/27/practical-brass-physics-to-improve-your-teaching-and-playing/</LINK_TEXT>[/quote]

Thanks for posting that link.

Tthe author, Steve Oare (correction, the original author is Shannon Roberts), states, "As air is forced through the lips, the lips never touch each other. Instead, they oscillate because of the shifts in air pressure, turbulent eddies in the mouthpiece and elasticity of the skin." The bold emphasis is mine.

<YOUTUBE id="NZYuiPLSuPw">~~[media]~~https://youtu.be/NZYuiPLSuPw</YOUTUBE>

<YOUTUBE id="HiBhDGsVaRM">~~[media]~~https://youtu.be/HiBhDGsVaRM</YOUTUBE>

<YOUTUBE id="IvYmX-frcBI">~~[media]~~https://youtu.be/IvYmX-frcBI</YOUTUBE>

<YOUTUBE id="rkud0WhnMGQ">~~[media]~~https://youtu.be/rkud0WhnMGQ</YOUTUBE>

<YOUTUBE id="DPDooPHR7Ek">~~[media]~~https://youtu.be/DPDooPHR7Ek</YOUTUBE>

Other than that, most of what I read in there seems accurate, although I didn't try to fact check all the discussion on physics.

harrisonreed · by **harrisonreed** » 2021-09-03 12:06 a.m.

It sure looks like those lips are touching every oscillation

Doug_Elliott · by **Doug_Elliott** » 2021-09-03 12:32 a.m.

Exactly.

Video proof, not somebody's opinion of what they think they do.

Posaunus · by **Posaunus** » 2021-09-03 2:10 a.m.

[quote="Wilktone"]<QUOTE author="Kbiggs" post_id="156594" time="1630621847" user_id="172">
Here is a slightly different approach to the topic. I am still thinking about and digesting this information, and I have yet to try anything suggested. More food for thought.

<LINK_TEXT text="https://kansasmusicreview.com/2018/06/2 ... d-playing/">https://kansasmusicreview.com/2018/06/27/practical-brass-physics-to-improve-your-teaching-and-playing/</LINK_TEXT>[/quote]

The author, Steve Oare, states, "As air is forced through the lips, the lips never touch each other. Instead, they oscillate because of the shifts in air pressure, turbulent eddies in the mouthpiece and elasticity of the skin."
</QUOTE>

The original author of this paper was apparently Dr. Shannon Roberts, director of a high school band in Ogden, Utah.

Sorry, Dr. Roberts, but it's pretty clear from all the videos (and personal experience) that the lips DO touch each other when producing a note on a brass instrument.

Basbasun · by **Basbasun** » 2021-09-03 4:51 a.m.

Well, most of us know very well that in most pro trombone playing the lips close fully. The Paper from Johan Sundberg is about male singers singin in falsetto, you can hear in Daves video clip that there is pretty much air in the sound when the singer goes into the falsetto. This has been known for at least 20 years now. I don´t know where my papers are, I could probably find them if I did have the time. I don´t. There is not much use to publishing more videos with classical profesional trombonists, it would be more intresting to se video with modern avantgarde players who play with other sounds. If we can find videos with trombonists with airy sound it would probably be videos with lips touching, but not fully. Like touching in the corneres bu not in middle maybe. Those of you who teach, did you ever have a student with airy sound sound? Did you wonder what reason for that could be? My wife do also sing (she is a saxophone player) she can sing whit a kind of whispering sound, not the way she usually sing. There are many singers who do that sometimes.

Basbasun · by **Basbasun** » 2021-09-03 5:03 a.m.

[quote="Wilktone"]<QUOTE author="Kbiggs" post_id="156594" time="1630621847" user_id="172">
Here is a slightly different approach to the topic. I am still thinking about and digesting this information, and I have yet to try anything suggested. More food for thought.

<LINK_TEXT text="https://kansasmusicreview.com/2018/06/2 ... d-playing/">https://kansasmusicreview.com/2018/06/27/practical-brass-physics-to-improve-your-teaching-and-playing/</LINK_TEXT>[/quote]

Thanks for posting that link.

Tthe author, Steve Oare, states, "As air is forced through the lips, the lips never touch each other. Instead, they oscillate because of the shifts in air pressure, turbulent eddies in the mouthpiece and elasticity of the skin." The bold emphasis is mine.

<YOUTUBE id="NZYuiPLSuPw">~~[media]~~https://youtu.be/NZYuiPLSuPw</YOUTUBE>

<YOUTUBE id="HiBhDGsVaRM">~~[media]~~https://youtu.be/HiBhDGsVaRM</YOUTUBE>

<YOUTUBE id="IvYmX-frcBI">~~[media]~~https://youtu.be/IvYmX-frcBI</YOUTUBE>

<YOUTUBE id="rkud0WhnMGQ">~~[media]~~https://youtu.be/rkud0WhnMGQ</YOUTUBE>

<YOUTUBE id="DPDooPHR7Ek">~~[media]~~https://youtu.be/DPDooPHR7Ek</YOUTUBE>

Other than that, most of what I read in there seems accurate, although I didn't try to fact check all the discussion on physics.
</QUOTE>

Well thankyou for those nicce videos, I have seen them a couple times before. They all show how the lips move when pro trombonist play in most cases. I am sure that mosts of them could play with an airy sound if getting payed for it. It is not that hard, I have done it. If we shall have more videos it would be fun to look at the lips when a husky whispering sound is produced. I am not saying that it is not possible to play with a useful sound with the lips only partial closed, like closing in the corners but not in the middle, but I say that all those videos showing fully closed lips does not prove that playing another way is not possible. Remeber tha most of those trombone players on the videos is shosen for a "good trombone sound".

Wilktone · by **Wilktone** » 2021-09-03 8:39 a.m.

[quote="Posaunus"]The original author of this paper was apparently Dr. Shannon Roberts, director of a high school band in Ogden, Utah.[/quote]

Whoops, thanks for catching that. I've corrected my original post.

As an aside, there's an image in the article that I created in Photoshop about 10 years ago for a blog post. I had scanned a drawing from Reinhardt's Encyclopedia, colorized it and added the tongue touching the lower lip for a post where I was talking about avoiding keeping the tongue on the lower lip to play. I'm not sure why that image was pulled and what they hoped to demonstrate with it, since it just sits there without explanation. Frankly, it's a pretty crappy job with Photoshop, so I'm surprised they couldn't find a better image.

[quote="Basbasun"]The Paper from Johan Sundberg is about male singers singin in falsetto, you can hear in Daves video clip that there is pretty much air in the sound when the singer goes into the falsetto[/quote]

I poked around and you're right, when singing in falsetto the vocal folds do not completely close, so that portion of the vocalist video I posted isn't an artifact of the strobe light not quite flashing at the same frequency. I don't really think there is an analogue to trombone embouchure, however.

[quote="Basbasun"]I am not saying that it is not possible to play with a useful sound with the lips only partial closed, like closing in the corners but not in the middle, but I say that all those videos showing fully closed lips does not prove that playing another way is not possible.[/quote]

Possible? Sure, I'll grant you that. Advisable? Probably not. Maybe as a special effect, but it's not a very useful one.

[quote="Basbasun"]There is not much use to publishing more videos with classical profesional trombonists, it would be more intresting to se video with modern avantgarde players who play with other sounds.[/quote]

If you go to about 17:00 minutes into the Lloyd Leno film above (the first video in the string of brass videos I posted yesterday) you'll see some video footage of Stewart Dempster demonstrating two different kinds of multiphonics, including playing with two apertures.

Basbasun · by **Basbasun** » 2021-09-03 9:13 a.m.

Yes I know about Stuart Dempster, I meet him in the 60th and 80th in Stockholm, well he is not what you call a "classically" trombone player even though he was at one time. He was showing lots of "sounds" I am sure he could do a whisper sound.

"Possible? Sure, I'll grant you that. Advisable? Probably not. Maybe as a special effect, but it's not a very useful one."

Well if you want a whisper sound may be adviseble, that could probably be a useful one in that case.

To be honest I can´t prove anything about that, I have heard many trombone and trumpet players player (on purpose) playing with an airy sound, and doing it good making an intersting sound. We can not so far know for sure how the embouchure works for them, I don´t and you don´t. We can guess no more.

afugate · by **afugate** » 2021-09-03 9:27 a.m.

[quote="Wilktone"]

<YOUTUBE id="IvYmX-frcBI">~~[media]~~https://youtu.be/IvYmX-frcBI</YOUTUBE>[/quote]

About 25 seconds into this clip, the player starts ascending into the upper register. It seems they have trouble playing up there. To my untrained eyes, it appears they are pulling the aperture sideways at that point. I wonder if that's an indication of a smile embouchure approach?

--Andy in OKC

Doug_Elliott · by **Doug_Elliott** » 2021-09-03 10:35 a.m.

I don't think so, but that shows the problem with trying to diagnose or explain what's happening while only looking at one thing.

There are undoubtedly several different reasons why the player is having trouble, including the tongue creating the low C (Bb) aperture to start.

Kbiggs · by **Kbiggs** » 2021-09-03 1:12 p.m.

[quote="Wilktone"]

Thanks for posting that link.

he author, Steve Oare (correction, the original author is Shannon Roberts), states, "As air is forced through the lips, the lips never touch each other. Instead, they oscillate because of the shifts in air pressure, turbulent eddies in the mouthpiece and elasticity of the skin." The bold emphasis is mine.

Other than that, most of what I read in there seems accurate, although I didn't try to fact check all the discussion on physics.[/quote]

Yes, I agree. The lips touch. I don’t know enough about the underlying physics to really understand what Dr. Roberts is referring to, and it’s possible he may not either. The useful concepts to me are a constant flow of air past the lips, the lips vibrating and exciting the closed resonating tube, and the instrument as a projecting resonator.

It is odd that Dr. Roberts used your photoshopped pic without attribution when there are many others available. [Anyone remember the Beatles tune Dr. Roberts???]

I think where the original video’s author Deion Tucker confuses the issue is when he talks about forming the embouchure vs. what actually happens. There are times when we use a thought or a figure of speech (like an analogy, a metaphor, a simile) to understand something, and it eventually “breaks down.” It doesn’t fit the situation exactly, or on further examination it’s not a good example. Enter critical thinking here (thanks Dave Wilken).

Example: some people, especially students, may find it useful to think of an open aperture with a pucker in order to de-emphasize or counter their tendency to stretch the lips too thin. Just a thought…

Savio · by **Savio** » 2021-09-03 1:41 p.m.

The video shows the fact but the approach or idea might work for some? Some pinch the lip together to much, some are very loose. I suggest to take a lesson with Doug Elliott or some other teacher who knows about mechanisms in brass playing if there is specific problems. If not, play, practice, performe and enjoy.

Leif

Bach5G · by **Bach5G** » 2021-09-03 1:44 p.m.

Interesting but not something that one would incorporate into one’s daily routine beyond what K Biggs said, ie:

“Example: some people, especially students, may find it useful to think of an open aperture with a pucker in order to de-emphasize or counter their tendency to stretch the lips too thin”

afugate · by **afugate** » 2021-09-04 8:46 a.m.

[quote="Doug Elliott"]I don't think so, but that shows the problem with trying to diagnose or explain what's happening while only looking at one thing.

There are undoubtedly several different reasons why the player is having trouble, including the tongue creating the low C (Bb) aperture to start.[/quote]

So much to learn... so little time! :weep:

--Andy in OKC

Basbasun · by **Basbasun** » 2021-09-06 11:22 a.m.

I did an experiment with a visulizer and a tothpick. I puched my corners forward much more than I usually do, the same way I did years ago when asked to make an "airy" trombone sound in a record with B-A Wallin in the 70th. Looking at my lips in the visulizer my apperture look really round whem I plowed a tone. I slowly put the tothpich in the the round opening still buzzing, took the tothpick out still buzzing. Yes the lips was closing. But only at the corners. I played some tones on one trombone, the sound was ok. Still with the corners puchued forward. The sound was not bad at all. All the videos only prove how those very few trombonists lips behave, the millions of other trombonists.

Yes the lips close and open, but there is a chans that they dont hav close completily, like vocal chords sometimes dont close completely. ( Yes the lips and vocal chords do behave very much alike). I can´t prove anything, It would be very nice to make a video about the issue. But some ynger person than me has to do it. I think it is possible that slideman is right.

imsevimse · by **imsevimse** » 2021-09-06 1:49 p.m.

[quote="Basbasun"]I did an experiment with a visulizer and a tothpick. I puched my corners forward much more than I usually do, the same way I did years ago when asked to make an "airy" trombone sound in a record with B-A Wallin in the 70th. Looking at my lips in the visulizer my apperture look really round whem I plowed a tone. I slowly put the tothpich in the the round opening still buzzing, took the tothpick out still buzzing. Yes the lips was closing. But only at the corners. I played some tones on one trombone, the sound was ok. Still with the corners puchued forward. The sound was not bad at all. All the videos only prove how those very few trombonists lips behave, the millions of other trombonists.

Yes the lips close and open, but there is a chans that they dont hav close completily, like vocal chords sometimes dont close completely. ( Yes the lips and vocal chords do behave very much alike). I can´t prove anything, It would be very nice to make a video about the issue. But some ynger person than me has to do it. I think it is possible that slideman is right.[/quote]

I'm not surprised YOU could do that experiment and manage to buzz with a toothpick in your mouth. I wonder how many at this forum can do that? I know I can't but I do suspect I would be a much better trombone player if I could. I admire your skills :hi:

/Tom

Wilktone · by **Wilktone** » 2021-09-07 8:56 a.m.

[quote="robcat2075"]I wonder if anyone can "freebuzz" with an open aperture. That would show that the lips needn't close.

But it's probably impossible.[/quote]

Turns out that it isn't impossible.

<YOUTUBE id="4YIdyYeJWiM" t="32">~~[media]~~https://youtu.be/4YIdyYeJWiM?t=32</YOUTUBE>

But I doubt that this is how he's playing, even if he thinks it.

Even though some folks can free buzz without the lips coming completely closed, I still doubt that this is what happens inside the mouthpiece while playing the horn. First, the vocal folds are not responding to a standing wave and vibrating in resonance the way our lips do. My rudimentary understanding of the physics involved leads me to believe that without the lips coming completely closed we're not going to get the little puffs of air that set the column of air inside the instrument to vibrating and we're not going to get the standing wave and lips vibrating in tandem. No standing wave is no sound.

Almost every credible discussion I've seen of the physics of brass instruments that discusses the embouchure aperture states that the lips open and close. Every actual video footage of the lips vibrating inside a transparent mouthpiece or with a camera inside the mouthpiece show the lips open and close. Is it possible that somewhere someone can make something resembling a sound on a brass instrument without that happening? Maybe, but I doubt it. If you can show it to me I'll change my thoughts, but until then I call shenanigans.

BGuttman · by **BGuttman** » 2021-09-07 9:46 a.m.

All sound requires a vibration somewhere in a compressible medium. That's why playing a trombone in a vacuum won't make a sound that can be heard (of course, that has to be a thought experiment -- no way you can test it).

Brass instruments are also called lip-reed for a reason. Instead of a vibrating string or reed you need a vibrating lip.

I feel that if you can do a razzberry you can do a free buzz.

Basbasun · by **Basbasun** » 2021-09-07 10:49 a.m.

[quote="Wilktone"]<QUOTE author="robcat2075" post_id="156451" time="1630500723" user_id="3697">
I wonder if anyone can "freebuzz" with an open aperture. That would show that the lips needn't close.

But it's probably impossible.[/quote]

Turns out that it isn't impossible.

<YOUTUBE id="4YIdyYeJWiM" t="32">~~[media]~~https://youtu.be/4YIdyYeJWiM?t=32</YOUTUBE>

But I doubt that this is how he's playing, even if he thinks it.

Even though some folks can free buzz without the lips coming completely closed, I still doubt that this is what happens inside the mouthpiece while playing the horn. First, the vocal folds are not responding to a standing wave and vibrating in resonance the way our lips do. My rudimentary understanding of the physics involved leads me to believe that without the lips coming completely closed we're not going to get the little puffs of air that set the column of air inside the instrument to vibrating and we're not going to get the standing wave and lips vibrating in tandem. No standing wave is no sound.

Almost every credible discussion I've seen of the physics of brass instruments that discusses the embouchure aperture states that the lips open and close. Every actual video footage of the lips vibrating inside a transparent mouthpiece or with a camera inside the mouthpiece show the lips open and close. Is it possible that somewhere someone can make something resembling a sound on a brass instrument without that happening? Maybe, but I doubt it. If you can show it to me I'll change my thoughts, but until then I call shenanigans.
</QUOTE>

I am sure that his lips are fully touching when he plays the horn. Because the sound is telling my that I think. Like all the videos in this thread are played with a sound that I think is the sound of fully closed/open, even though there might be short moments of lips not closing fully. I have heard live trombonists sound a bit leaky, I can do that my self on purpose. I don´t think you can get that sound with the lips fully closed. What we have seen in the videos is the result of standing waves and lips closing/opening, in that we all agree. We have not seen any videos showing how the lips looks when airy, husky leaky sonds is produced. So we are just guessing and believing. As I said above, I can not prove anything, I can just guess that it is possible to play an airy sound with the lips closed only partially. I know the Dave will not change his mind (he never does) so we just have to agree about not agree.Dave is sure, I am not.

Basbasun · by **Basbasun** » 2021-09-07 10:59 a.m.

[quote="BGuttman"]All sound requires a vibration somewhere in a compressible medium. That's why playing a trombone in a vacuum won't make a sound that can be heard (of course, that has to be a thought experiment -- no way you can test it).

Brass instruments are also called lip-reed for a reason. Instead of a vibrating string or reed you need a vibrating lip.

I feel that if you can do a razzberry you can do a free buzz.[/quote]
I guess you are right, if you can do a razzbery you can probably do a sort of freebuzzing.

I can free buzz. I can buzz in the mouthpiece. I can play some trombone.

But. I can not play the trombone exactly the same way I buzz the mpc, close, but there is an important difference.

There is also a difference in my mpc buzzing and feebuzzing. The difference is bigger than mpc buzzing and trombone playing.

If you can do a razzbery, does not mean you can play trombone.

Wilktone · by **Wilktone** » 2021-09-07 11:07 a.m.

[quote="Basbasun"]I know the Dave will not change his mind (he never does). . .

Dave is sure, I am not.[/quote]

Not fair. I change my mind often, but I want to see evidence. Please go back read all the qualifications I am very careful to put into my writing. I "believe," I "think," I "prefer to approach things this way," etc.

[quote="Wilktone"]But I doubt that this is how he's playing, even if he thinks it.[/quote]

[quote="Wilktone"]My rudimentary understanding of the physics involved leads me to believe...
[/quote][quote="Wilktone"]Is it possible that somewhere someone can make something resembling a sound on a brass instrument without that happening? Maybe, but I doubt it. If you can show it to me I'll change my thoughts, but until then I call shenanigans.
[/quote][quote="Wilktone"]I poked around and you're right, when singing in falsetto the vocal folds do not completely close, so that portion of the vocalist video I posted isn't an artifact of the strobe light not quite flashing at the same frequency.[/quote]

[quote="Wilktone"]But I do believe that it is the lips buzzing that excites the column of air.[/quote]

[quote="Wilktone"]Turns out that it isn't impossible.[/quote]

I'm very happy to change my mind, and I think my words in this topic have not only shown examples of me acknowledging when I'm wrong, but also demonstrate when I'm speculating and not entirely sure of myself. If you've got something I need to correct, I really do want to hear about it, but that which is asserted without evidence can also be rejected without evidence.

Dave

Doug_Elliott · by **Doug_Elliott** » 2021-09-07 11:40 a.m.

[quote="Basbasun"]I did an experiment with a visulizer and a tothpick. I puched my corners forward much more than I usually do, the same way I did years ago when asked to make an "airy" trombone sound in a record with B-A Wallin in the 70th. Looking at my lips in the visulizer my apperture look really round whem I plowed a tone. I slowly put the tothpich in the the round opening still buzzing, took the tothpick out still buzzing. Yes the lips was closing. But only at the corners. I played some tones on one trombone, the sound was ok. Still with the corners puchued forward. The sound was not bad at all. All the videos only prove how those very few trombonists lips behave, the millions of other trombonists.

Yes the lips close and open, but there is a chans that they dont hav close completily, like vocal chords sometimes dont close completely. ( Yes the lips and vocal chords do behave very much alike). I can´t prove anything, It would be very nice to make a video about the issue. But some ynger person than me has to do it. I think it is possible that slideman is right.[/quote]

Next time you feel like experimenting with that, use a straw instead of a toothpick - so you know for sure there's a continuous opening through the middle.

If you watch the slow motion videos closely, the complete closure is a very rapid whip-like action. Easy to miss, but that doesn't mean it's not happening.

imsevimse · by **imsevimse** » 2021-09-07 2:31 p.m.

[quote="Doug Elliott"]<QUOTE author="Basbasun" post_id="156874" time="1630941755" user_id="196">
I did an experiment with a visulizer and a tothpick. I puched my corners forward much more than I usually do, the same way I did years ago when asked to make an "airy" trombone sound in a record with B-A Wallin in the 70th. Looking at my lips in the visulizer my apperture look really round whem I plowed a tone. I slowly put the tothpich in the the round opening still buzzing, took the tothpick out still buzzing. Yes the lips was closing. But only at the corners. I played some tones on one trombone, the sound was ok. Still with the corners puchued forward. The sound was not bad at all. All the videos only prove how those very few trombonists lips behave, the millions of other trombonists.

Yes the lips close and open, but there is a chans that they dont hav close completily, like vocal chords sometimes dont close completely. ( Yes the lips and vocal chords do behave very much alike). I can´t prove anything, It would be very nice to make a video about the issue. But some ynger person than me has to do it. I think it is possible that slideman is right.[/quote]

Next time you feel like experimenting with that, use a straw instead of a toothpick - so you know for sure there's a continuous opening through the middle.

If you watch the slow motion videos closely, the complete closure is a very rapid whip-like action. Easy to miss, but that doesn't mean it's not happening.
</QUOTE>

I think that if you can put a toothpick in the open hole in the middle while buzzing, and the buzzing is not affected, then there IS a hole that is open in the middle while buzzing. To be able to put a straw in that hole would just prove it is possible to buzz and have an even larger hole in the middle.

I can't do it, but I'm sure Basbasun can, I know him and I've seen how his emboushure works. I've seen him frebuzz in the pedal register, even freebuzzing while doing circular breathing.

If he says he can produce freebuzzing and to keep an opening in the middle of his emboushure through that buzz I believe he can do it 😉

/Tom

WGWTR180 · by **WGWTR180** » 2021-09-07 5:03 p.m.

[quote="harrisonreed"]You keep apologizing and saying negative things about the forum but this thread has been great. Who cares about what "the pros" think about this forum? They all left over a decade ago, and it was not even this forum. You want their advice, you gotta pay. And they will just tell you to sit up straight, and buzz more.

Pros left the forum because it does indeed get ugly, but also because everyone is on equal footing here. It's too easy to be called out or say something you regret.[/quote]

They haven't all left. :good:

Doug_Elliott · by **Doug_Elliott** » 2021-09-07 6:19 p.m.

I think a toothpick in the aperture doesn't prove anything.

harrisonreed · by **harrisonreed** » 2021-09-07 6:26 p.m.

The commentary on this thread has for the most part completely missed the point of the referenced video, and focused on physics breaking party tricks.

Can you tie a knot into a cherry stem with your aperture while you free buzz, too? Cooooooool

Re: the toothpick in the aperture -- "I think this proves there is a hole there"

The air can't go through the toothpick, and it's tiny, so the mouth just closes around the toothpick. The joke would be to prove that there is a hole there using cake or pie, while free buzzing.

Kbiggs · by **Kbiggs** » 2021-09-07 10:50 p.m.

[quote="harrisonreed"]The commentary on this thread has for the most part completely missed the point of the referenced video, and focused on physics breaking party tricks.
[/quote]

Isn’t that the point, though? Saying “The lips do not touch in the aperture when forming an embouchure or when playing” is physically impossible. Yes, the lips touch. They have to in order to excite the air in a closed tube, even if for a millisecond.

I agree that it may be helpful to think of the lips not touching for certain students who are having difficulty forming a useful embouchure, especially when they are “smiling” or “puckering” too much. It CAN be a pedagogical tool. But we can’t say that they DON’T touch because it’s not possible.

Basbasun · by **Basbasun** » 2021-09-08 4:34 a.m.

Dave! I am sorry I wasn´t fair to you.

Doug! I just tried the straw. Works like a charm. The lips wibrate ( open/close) in the corners but not in middle. I know it does not prove anything.

What I do wonder though, is the closing of hte lips complete when the sound of the trombone is airy, leaky and whispered? Why is it leaky? The reason for my thoughts is that singers do sometimes use a leaky sond (on purpose) the vocalchords still close but not copletelly. There is still air going through the apperture in a opning that does not close/open.

The Bernoulli effect pull the lips together. Yes. The lips do touch. But if the don´t close completely, will there still be a sound? How does it sound.

Before I decide what to believe, I like to see a video on a leaky trombone sound. So far we have not seen a video like that in this thread.

We are not going to se that video, probably because it is not made yet.

No proof.

So lets call the whole thing of.

baileyman · by **baileyman** » 2021-09-08 7:29 a.m.

Here's an experiment. Requires one of those high speed hand driers, ear plugs, and two wet hands.

Install ear plugs.

Wash your hands and then hold them under the jet of air.

Move them slowly close together so that the air shoots between the hands at the fleshy part of the palm below the pinky finger.

Observe.

Wilktone · by **Wilktone** » 2021-09-08 8:37 a.m.

[quote="Basbasun"]Dave! I am sorry I wasn´t fair to you.[/quote]

Thank you.

[quote="baileyman"]Here's an experiment.[/quote]

The trouble, as I see it, with these experiments (including the free buzzing with a tooth pick or straw between the lips) is that it doesn't simulate the lips interacting with the standing wave. I'm not convinced that the lips won't be forced closed by the wave reflection, even on an airy tone.

[quote="Basbasun"]Before I decide what to believe, I like to see a video on a leaky trombone sound. So far we have not seen a video like that in this thread.[/quote]

I tried yesterday with the slow motion feature on my tablet and a transparent mouthpiece. It was too hard to get a good angle by myself and the resulting video was too blurry to be useful. If I can get some help I might try again, but I don't think that my tablet camera is really up to the task. Not to mention that trying to play with the center of my lips open just won't work for me. I can play with an airy tone, but it sure doesn't feel like my aperture is staying open (but that's the problem with *feel*).

[quote="harrisonreed"]The commentary on this thread has for the most part completely missed the point of the referenced video, and focused on physics breaking party tricks.[/quote]

I think it proves the point I made a while back.

[quote="Wilktone"]It's very easy to interpret what he's advising as "try to keep your aperture open while playing." While some players might find success making it "feel" like that's what they're doing, analogies and playing sensations are unreliable ways to teach unless you are there in person to fix a problem if they don't have the desired effect. I'm not opposed to instructing this way, per se. I'm personally much more likely to use analogies and describing playing sensations while teaching in person than I do online.[/quote]

The way Tucker presents his advice is too easy to interpret any way you want. Maybe you hear it and decide he's trying to suggestion you change the general aperture shape. Maybe he means to purse your corners forward. Maybe he means to start the tone with the aperture open and allow the reflection of the standing wave to set the lips to buzzing. Maybe he actually is suggesting the lips don't close while playing. It's not at all clear in that video. And that is what I find unhelpful about it.

Dave

Doug_Elliott · by **Doug_Elliott** » 2021-09-08 8:57 a.m.

The airy, leaky sound is an effect that's possible, but does anybody want to sound like that all the time? And if there is a space that is not vibrating, it is wasting a tremendous amount of air. The reason I wanted you to try the straw is that I tried it myself. I can make the sides vibrate, but it requires a very large volume of air when there's an open hole that's not vibrating - it's a big leak of wasted air. Other than a special sound effect, why would anyone want to play that way? It's like whispering really loudly - you can do it if you want to use an entire breath on each word.

timothy42b · by **timothy42b** » 2021-09-08 2:15 p.m.

I tried two toothpicks. I can freebuzz with two, but the lips are closing on the toothpick, same as closing on each other.

So I tried buzzing and pulling the two toothpicks apart vertically to creaet a space. Kind of weird, the sides of the lips do vibrate a bit, but the air all whooshes out in the moddle.

baileyman · by **baileyman** » 2021-09-08 5:57 p.m.

[quote="Wilktone"]...
<QUOTE author="baileyman" post_id="156993" time="1631100571" user_id="160">
Here's an experiment.[/quote]

The trouble, as I see it, with these experiments (including the free buzzing with a tooth pick or straw between the lips) is that it doesn't simulate the lips interacting with the standing wave. I'm not convinced that the lips won't be forced closed by the wave reflection, even on an airy tone.

...

Dave
</QUOTE>

Well, here's another one, which should be definitive on "the standing wave" issue. Observe the lips in a visualizer. Or in freebuzz using a downstream set.

Basbasun · by **Basbasun** » 2021-09-09 5:44 a.m.

<YOUTUBE id="5fOyYUttDRo">https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5fOyYUttDRo</YOUTUBE>

<YOUTUBE id="UXeGp9QJ9Lw">https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=UXeGp9QJ9Lw</YOUTUBE>

This two link is airy sound in singing and trumpet.

Not very many trombone players use this effect, Olle Holmqvist was a master on it (James Last) he only used it in few bars in a song, or even one note sometimes.

I can do it, not as good as Rick, yes it does take more air, it not not useful in a section (Rick played in bigbands, he only used the effect on solos though) I did get payed for it though.

The effect is useless in most playing situations, today I would not use it at all except to show it is possible.

I the 70th I was involved i lots of modern avantgard music, where un usual sound was asked for, like splitt ones multiphonics and more strange sonds. I got payed for them.

If you still want do do the "toothpick trick"

Stand in front of a mirror buzz in a vizualiser with the corners moved forward so much that you see the apperture as a round whole. Slowly put the thoothpick in that whould, try not to touch the lips, take it out still not touching the lips. Done. The buzz shoud be going through the experiment.

It does not prove anything about what happens in the horn, it proves that buzzing with open lips is possible.

Wilktone · by **Wilktone** » 2021-09-09 8:49 a.m.

[quote="Basbasun"]This two link is airy sound in singing and trumpet.[/quote]

For what it's worth, when I do the "airy tone" as an effect I still *feel* like my lips are coming completely closed (keeping in mind that how things *feel* isn't a good indication of what is happening). For me, getting this sound requires allowing the lower lip to blow out more than I would normally play. This is tricky, because if my lower lip gets blown out too far my tone can split in certain ranges. If I allow this to happen on a low Bb I get a double buzz with the pedal Bb. This used to happen to me all the time without wanting to on a Gb in the staff. I don't want to mess around with this too much because I don't want to encourage those double buzzes to return.

Since I play with much more lower lip inside the mouthpiece than most players, your milage on trying it out this way may vary.

[quote="baileyman"]Well, here's another one, which should be definitive on "the standing wave" issue. Observe the lips in a visualizer. Or in freebuzz using a downstream set.[/quote]

Am I missing something? Free buzzing or buzzing into a visualizer won't allow the lips to interact with the standing way. You need to be playing the horn for that.

[quote="Basbasun"]It does not prove anything about what happens in the horn, it proves that buzzing with open lips is possible.[/quote]

I thought we had already established that.

<YOUTUBE id="4YIdyYeJWiM" t="30">~~[media]~~https://youtu.be/4YIdyYeJWiM?t=30</YOUTUBE>

I'm skeptical that this is what happens inside the mouthpiece while playing the horn, though, even for the "airy" tone. I suspect that the standing wave reflecting back against the lips will, in part, cause the lips to come together so that the aperture will close completely. I'm fairly confident that for anything resembling a normal trombone tone that this happens, in spite of what Davur Juul Magnussen thinks he's doing when he's playing the horn. And I really don't know what Dion Tucker thinks he's doing in the initial video that started this thread, but I don't think the way he describes it is very accurate or personally find it very helpful. But if thinking about things in that way clicks for you, knock yourself out. Just be aware that it's more of an analogy and that it might not work the same way for all players.

Dave

Doug_Elliott · by **Doug_Elliott** » 2021-09-09 10:17 a.m.

Magnusson's demonstration of bringing the lips together until they buzz is nearly identical to how I demonstrate finding a good buzz. But his explanation of "there must always be a gap" vs "squeezing our lips together" is taking two extremes and saying that one is right. They're both wrong.

baileyman · by **baileyman** » 2021-09-09 10:19 a.m.

[quote="Wilktone"]...

<QUOTE author="baileyman" post_id="157052" time="1631138242" user_id="160">
Well, here's another one, which should be definitive on "the standing wave" issue. Observe the lips in a visualizer. Or in freebuzz using a downstream set.[/quote]

Am I missing something? Free buzzing or buzzing into a visualizer won't allow the lips to interact with the standing way. You need to be playing the horn for that.

...

Dave
</QUOTE>

Well, no, and yes.

The response is correct that there is no standing wave involved. The missed implication is that the standing wave is thus irrelevant here. The idea can be confidently dropped. And then get on with the matter of the fellow who beautifully demonstrates, says what makes sense to him, but cannot seem to convey sense to someone else.

Basbasun · by **Basbasun** » 2021-09-09 5:03 p.m.

[quote="Wilktone"]<QUOTE author="Basbasun" post_id="157091" time="1631180662" user_id="196">
This two link is airy sound in singing and trumpet.[/quote]

For what it's worth, when I do the "airy tone" as an effect I still *feel* like my lips are coming completely closed (keeping in mind that how things *feel* isn't a good indication of what is happening). For me, getting this sound requires allowing the lower lip to blow out more than I would normally play. This is tricky, because if my lower lip gets blown out too far my tone can split in certain ranges. If I allow this to happen on a low Bb I get a double buzz with the pedal Bb. This used to happen to me all the time without wanting to on a Gb in the staff. I don't want to mess around with this too much because I don't want to encourage those double buzzes to return.

Since I play with much more lower lip inside the mouthpiece than most players, your milage on trying it out this way may vary.

[quote="baileyman"]Well, here's another one, which should be definitive on "the standing wave" issue. Observe the lips in a visualizer. Or in freebuzz using a downstream set.[/quote]

Am I missing something? Free buzzing or buzzing into a visualizer won't allow the lips to interact with the standing way. You need to be playing the horn for that.

[quote="Basbasun"]It does not prove anything about what happens in the horn, it proves that buzzing with open lips is possible.[/quote]

I thought we had already established that.

<YOUTUBE id="4YIdyYeJWiM" t="30">~~[media]~~https://youtu.be/4YIdyYeJWiM?t=30</YOUTUBE>

I'm skeptical that this is what happens inside the mouthpiece while playing the horn, though, even for the "airy" tone. I suspect that the standing wave reflecting back against the lips will, in part, cause the lips to come together so that the aperture will close completely. I'm fairly confident that for anything resembling a normal trombone tone that this happens, in spite of what Davur Juul Magnussen thinks he's doing when he's playing the horn. And I really don't know what Dion Tucker thinks he's doing in the initial video that started this thread, but I don't think the way he describes it is very accurate or personally find it very helpful. But if thinking about things in that way clicks for you, knock yourself out. Just be aware that it's more of an analogy and that it might not work the same way for all players.

Dave
</QUOTE>
Well, to me it really looks like Magnussens lips do touch.

I think his lip muscles is holding the lips appart, but the air flow is pulling them together.

The same thing happen when he is blowing the horn, no airy sound whatsoever.

I heard Rick play without the airy sound, he is using the airy sound as an expresion in his solon (as gimmic?) not in a section.

I am, like all of you, sure that both lips vibrate when playing trombone, the lips close completely, at least when a "normal sound" is produced. But the airy sound?

I do wonder how is it possible to produce the airy tone? I do think some air is escaping through the closed, the lips is not closing completely, there is still a opening, prolly very small. So far there is no prof.

To make the airy sound one has to force an opening that does not close, I think in the middle of the apperture, the lips on the sides do vibrate and close othervise there would be any sound. That is my thought (not proven) if somebody have an other thought about the airy sound I will listen. Maybe someone can make a pof?

This a silly discousion though, the airy sound is what most trombone teachers work on students to get over.

PaulTdot · by **PaulTdot** » 2021-09-09 5:37 p.m.

I've always wondered about people who talk about the "aperture".

How have they observed it in action? Or are they just describing their own sensations, while playing? (These are notoriously misleading; our nervous system, the way it functions in the oral cavity, seems to be *terrible* at giving us reasonable feedback about what is happening.)

I'd love to see an example of someone who can demonstrate playing with "different types of apertures" (some people go as far as describing the shape of the aperture - e.g. round vs. oval vs. flat), verified with a high-quality video.

I've never seen such a thing.

(Though I do agree that there are sensations which "feel" quite meaningful and make a difference in our playing. I'm just not at all convinced that they have anything to do with the "aperture". Almost every player I've ever talked to about brass playing describes something in their own playing that is nowhere near what they actually do when they pick up the horn.)

Basbasun · by **Basbasun** » 2021-09-10 6:17 a.m.

[quote="PaulTdot"]I've always wondered about people who talk about the "aperture".

How have they observed it in action? Or are they just describing their own sensations, while playing? (These are notoriously misleading; our nervous system, the way it functions in the oral cavity, seems to be *terrible* at giving us reasonable feedback about what is happening.)

I'd love to see an example of someone who can demonstrate playing with "different types of apertures" (some people go as far as describing the shape of the aperture - e.g. round vs. oval vs. flat), verified with a high-quality video.

I've never seen such a thing.

(Though I do agree that there are sensations which "feel" quite meaningful and make a difference in our playing. I'm just not at all convinced that they have anything to do with the "aperture". Almost every player I've ever talked to about brass playing describes something in their own playing that is nowhere near what they actually do when they pick up the horn.)[/quote]
Good question.

Lets start with to forget all about the more or less strange playing like split tone, diffent kinds of multiphonics, airy whispering sound. Those are made with a manipulated embouchure,

We all have diffent lips, cheek, teeth and chin muscles and shape. Whe the sound what you are striving for, you are playing with the "right aperture".

I guess you have seen all the videos of moving apertures. They are moving fast, normaly there is no way to control the shape. You can control the sound.

Yes I have seen and heard plenty of teachers talking about the best shape of the aperture. I wish yey didn´t.

Wilktone · by **Wilktone** » 2021-09-10 9:01 a.m.

[quote="PaulTdot"]How have they observed it in action?[/quote]

[quote="Basbasun"]Yes I have seen and heard plenty of teachers talking about the best shape of the aperture. I wish yey didn´t.[/quote]

I think the majority of teachers who talk about aperture shape haven't actually used a transparent mouthpiece to look at what the general "shape" of the aperture is. If you've used a transparent mouthpiece to view what the lips are doing inside a functioning embouchure the aperture can look different between different players.

[quote="Basbasun"]Whe the sound what you are striving for, you are playing with the "right aperture".[/quote]

I don't think that's always the case. Some players will strive for a particular sound quality by doing things that make their sound darker in the low and middle register, but end up restricting how their upper register works.

If you remember my thread from a few months ago, I had an issue that was almost opposite. I was bringing my corners too far forward too soon in my range. I got there because it worked really well for the extreme upper register, but was choking off my sound around high Bb.

Trying to do "what works" sometimes means we're getting better at playing wrong. That is why I argue that it's better to be as objective and clear as possible in our advice, rather than relying too much on analogy and playing sensations.

[quote="baileyman"]The missed implication is that the standing wave is thus irrelevant here. The idea can be confidently dropped.[/quote]

Again, I don't completely understand your point. Isn't what is important for us in this context is how the lips function efficiently while playing the horn (when they are interacting with the standing wave)? If we eliminate the standing wave from he equation and demonstrate what the lip aperture can do in a rim visualizer or while free buzzing, that's not going to be completely accurate representation of what the aperture should be doing while playing the instrument.

[quote="baileyman"]And then get on with the matter of the fellow who beautifully demonstrates, says what makes sense to him, but cannot seem to convey sense to someone else.[/quote]

Well, I still argue that regardless of how wonderful his presentation is and how much sense it makes to him, his demonstration is too vague to be reliable pedagogy. Nor does it really reflect what he demonstrates while playing the horn (and that's not even considering what's going on with his aperture). To repeat myself, I believe that it's better to be as objective and clear as possible in our advice, rather than relying too much on analogy and playing sensations.

Dave

baileyman · by **baileyman** » 2021-09-10 9:29 a.m.

[quote="Wilktone"]...

Well, I still argue that regardless of how wonderful his presentation is and how much sense it makes to him, his demonstration is too vague to be reliable pedagogy. Nor does it really reflect what he demonstrates while playing the horn (and that's not even considering what's going on with his aperture). To repeat myself, I believe that it's better to be as objective and clear as possible in our advice, rather than relying too much on analogy and playing sensations.

Dave[/quote]

This is the adamant authoritative position.

The other position is to take his meaning as what he does, and then translate his words to also mean what he does in the usage of the translator.

Meanwhile, those listening to the translator must follow the same process to try to relate the translator's words to their own meaning.

Basbasun · by **Basbasun** » 2021-09-11 5:37 a.m.

[quote="Wilktone"]<QUOTE author="PaulTdot" post_id="157123" time="1631223471" user_id="4457">
How have they observed it in action?[/quote]

[quote="Basbasun"]When the sound what you are striving for, you are playing with the "right aperture".[/quote]

I don't think that's always the case. Some players will strive for a particular sound quality by doing things that make their sound darker in the low and middle register, but end up restricting how their upper register works.

:P :P

Dave
</QUOTE>
Well, you are ritgh in that.

I wold ask the student if the dark low and middle range is so important that to sacrifice the high range is ok. I think the hunt for the dark sound is often going to far. A good sound is not allway that dark. Many students think they have sound that is not the same as the listener hear. Many times I have recorded students to let them find out a little more about their sound. Usually the "very dark" sounds do change.

imsevimse · by **imsevimse** » 2021-09-11 7:02 a.m.

I put some thougts about these videos in another thread.

https://trombonechat.com/viewtopic.php?f=11&t=22076

This is a great thread!!!

/Tom

Wilktone · by **Wilktone** » 2021-09-11 10:25 a.m.

Thanks for your thoughts, baileyman, but I'm afraid I still don't follow your point. For example, this part seems like a backhanded compliment:

[quote="baileyman"]This is the adamant authoritative position.[/quote]

If I'm coming across as arrogant, I apologize as that's not my intention. Yes, I have some firmly held beliefs on brass embouchure technique and music pedagogy. I've been trying to explain how I came to these ideas so that others can perhaps benefit from my experiences. And if it's not clear, I'm standing on the shoulders of giants when it comes to this stuff because my mentors took the time to do similarly for me.

This part is even more confusing:

The other position is to take his meaning as what he does, and then translate his words to also mean what he does in the usage of the translator.

Meanwhile, those listening to the translator must follow the same process to try to relate the translator's words to their own meaning.

I have considered that you're being intentionally obtuse in order to allow us to take whatever meaning we want from those statements. It would be a clever way to prove a point, I guess. Trying to parse out what you're literally writing is difficult. Who is the "translator?" The individual receiving the instruction? If I tried to reword your thoughts I might say, "Take the instructor's descriptions of how he plays and then interpret them literally, but change around according to how you play. When others listen to that second hand description of how to play we must do the same."

[quote="Basbasun"]I wold ask the student if the dark low and middle range is so important that to sacrifice the high range is ok. I think the hunt for the dark sound is often going to far.[/quote]

Yes. For many players it's better to work in the high register and accept a thinner sound in the low register at first, then learn how to open up the tone in a way that connects with the rest of the range. It might seem harder in the short term, but I feel it has better long term results.

[quote="imsevimse"]This is a great thread!!![/quote]

Yes, I have enjoyed reading what others have to say, especially when it challenges my own ideas. It helps me learn to communicate my thoughts more clearly and adjust my ideas when I'm off.

Dave

baileyman · by **baileyman** » 2021-09-12 4:58 p.m.

[quote="Wilktone"]Thanks for your thoughts, baileyman, but I'm afraid I still don't follow your point. For example, this part seems like a backhanded compliment:

<QUOTE author="baileyman" post_id="157162" time="1631280582" user_id="160">
This is the adamant authoritative position.[/quote]

If I'm coming across as arrogant, I apologize as that's not my intention. Yes, I have some firmly held beliefs on brass embouchure technique and music pedagogy. I've been trying to explain how I came to these ideas so that others can perhaps benefit from my experiences. And if it's not clear, I'm standing on the shoulders of giants when it comes to this stuff because my mentors took the time to do similarly for me.

This part is even more confusing:

The other position is to take his meaning as what he does, and then translate his words to also mean what he does in the usage of the translator.

Meanwhile, those listening to the translator must follow the same process to try to relate the translator's words to their own meaning.

I have considered that you're being intentionally obtuse in order to allow us to take whatever meaning we want from those statements. It would be a clever way to prove a point, I guess. Trying to parse out what you're literally writing is difficult. Who is the "translator?" The individual receiving the instruction? If I tried to reword your thoughts I might say, "Take the instructor's descriptions of how he plays and then interpret them literally, but change around according to how you play. When others listen to that second hand description of how to play we must do the same."

...

Dave
</QUOTE>

I'll try one last time because I do not think continuing is worthwhile, but at least I should be understood.

The fellow in the video who so beautifully demonstrated what he was talking about, can be understood to be doing exactly what he says, and that what he says is exactly what he is doing. Now, if I were doing exactly what he does and then talked about it, I would use different words, for sure. But I think my words would also be an exact description of what I was doing. If I want to understand his description, I have to "translate" what he is saying to something I can understand about what he is doing. I think I was able to do that so I appreciated both what he did and what he said.

In this scheme there is no room for me to say he did not do what he says, or he cannot say what he does, or that if he did what he said it would not work, that what he says is wrong, or any number of other such conclusions of error. I think the furthest I could legitimately go in that direction would be that I may not be able to make the connection between what someone says and how I would understand it. That is, I might fail at translation. But if I fail, I certainly cannot conclude someone else was wrong.

What I hope I would do would be to say to myself, I don't get it, but the example is powerful, so I hope to make the connection between what he says and what I can understand and do.

PosauneCat · by **PosauneCat** » 2021-09-12 6:12 p.m.

I’m amazed at the number of responses to this post. I am the original poster, but I actually tried to retract it shortly after posting as someone suggested that posts of this nature often just devolve into nonsense and bickering. Well, apparently this one didn’t. It’s my best accidental post ever! I’ll admit, I haven’t followed it at all but I’m glad it has resulted in a good conversation!

You’re welcome. :-)

Mike

PosauneCat · by **PosauneCat** » 2021-09-12 6:29 p.m.

[quote="Doug Elliott"]

When I was a small child and heard the term "colored people," that's exactly what I imagined and wondered why I never saw any.[/quote]

That term always mystified me as a kid too. I was upset to think I must be colorless!

Basbasun · by **Basbasun** » 2021-09-13 7:16 a.m.

I'll try one last time because I do not think continuing is worthwhile, but at least I should be understood.

The fellow in the video who so beautifully demonstrated what he was talking about, can be understood to be doing exactly what he says, and that what he says is exactly what he is doing. Now, if I were doing exactly what he does and then talked about it, I would use different words, for sure. But I think my words would also be an exact description of what I was doing. If I want to understand his description, I have to "translate" what he is saying to something I can understand about what he is doing. I think I was able to do that so I appreciated both what he did and what he said.

In this scheme there is no room for me to say he did not do what he says, or he cannot say what he does, or that if he did what he said it would not work, that what he says is wrong, or any number of other such conclusions of error. I think the furthest I could legitimately go in that direction would be that I may not be able to make the connection between what someone says and how I would understand it. That is, I might fail at translation. But if I fail, I certainly cannot conclude someone else was wrong.

What I hope I would do would be to say to myself, I don't get it, but the example is powerful, so I hope to make the connection between what he says and what I can understand and do.

What Dione Tucker and Magnussen is demonstrating is that holding their lips partly open, the airflow can get them to vibrate.

You can do that to I am sure, I do play like that, I know many players do that. (What I do when I play with a fuzzy sound is exaggerate that, open the aperture "to much" in the middle, to mention that in this was just to show my point, the Bernoulli effect create a vacum between the lips. You can fight the vacum, just letting the side of the lips close. I realize that talking about the fuzzy sound was misstake, it just made cofusions)

Many players use the "M" to close the lips and blow them apart, other (like I) blow the together. Both work.

In the pivot system the lips are hold together and blown apart. (Don Reinhardt wrote: not tongued apart, wich is not how it works, exept I did know a very good trumpet player who did just that)

What happens when the air is flowing, the lips vibrate and the sound is in the air is probably the same for many players. If you start with the lips closed the airflow will open the lips and the air flow will close them (Bernoulli) If you you start with the lips open the air will close them (Bernoulli) the standing wave will keep the vibrations steady within the series of partials.

(The experiment with the hairdryer is a good one!)

Wilktone · by **Wilktone** » 2021-09-14 7:34 a.m.

[quote="baileyman"]The fellow in the video who so beautifully demonstrated what he was talking about, can be understood to be doing exactly what he says, and that what he says is exactly what he is doing.[/quote]

Thanks, baileyman, I think I now understand where our thoughts diverge. It seems that you're willing to take Tucker's descriptions at face value as what he's actually doing, or at least don't find any inaccuracies to be meaningful enough to let that stop you. I think you also find a lot of inspiration in the video and feel that makes it valuable. Totally fair.

And where I split from you is my feeling that he isn't really playing the way he describes. I find the suggestions he offers to not be accurate to what is probably happening to play, and so I prefer to teach and approach my practice in a different way. I too find his videos inspirational.

[quote="PosauneCat"]I’m amazed at the number of responses to this post. I am the original poster, but I actually tried to retract it shortly after posting as someone suggested that posts of this nature often just devolve into nonsense and bickering. Well, apparently this one didn’t.[/quote]

I tried my best to bicker and be nonsensical. I'll need to work harder on that.

[quote="Basbasun"]What Dione Tucker and Magnussen is demonstrating is that holding their lips partly open, the airflow can get them to vibrate.[/quote]

Yeah, but I'm not really convinced that they actually hold their lips partly open while they are playing the horn. I think they find it a helpful playing sensation to go after, but I strongly suspect that their chops are working like everyone else's in those slow motion videos.

Unless you mean they are starting the blowing with the lips in an open position and then they start to close after they commence blowing, in which case that certainly is possible. I don't feel it's the best way to play, but it certainly can be done.

[quote="Basbasun"](Don Reinhardt wrote: not tongued apart, wich is not how it works, exept I did know a very good trumpet player who did just that)[/quote]

Just to be clear, I don't think that Reinhardt states that this is "how it works," but rather that he felt tonguing on the lips was detrimental over the long term and wanted his students to avoid doing that.

Dave

Basbasun · by **Basbasun** » 2021-09-16 4:43 a.m.

[quote="Wilktone"]

<QUOTE author="Basbasun" post_id="157382" time="1631531810" user_id="196">
What Dione Tucker and Magnussen is demonstrating is that holding their lips partly open, the airflow can get them to vibrate.[/quote]

Yeah, but I'm not really convinced that they actually hold their lips partly open while they are playing the horn. I think they find it a helpful playing sensation to go after, but I strongly suspect that their chops are working like everyone else's in those slow motion videos.

Unless you mean they are starting the blowing with the lips in an open position and then they start to close after they commence blowing, in which case that certainly is possible. I don't feel it's the best way to play, but it certainly can be done.

[quote="Basbasun"](Don Reinhardt wrote: not tongued apart, wich is not how it works, exept I did know a very good trumpet player who did just that)[/quote]

Just to be clear, I don't think that Reinhardt states that this is "how it works," but rather that he felt tonguing on the lips was detrimental over the long term and wanted his students to avoid doing that.

Dave
</QUOTE>

Eh, Dave when the lips vibrate they do touch in phase open/closed. I don´t know really what you mean or if you don´t understand what I am writing.

Some players do hold their lips in M position when playing (or they say they do) some players hold their lips partly open (or they say they do) In either case the lips open/close rapidly.) ( I say it is possible to play with leak, a fuzzy tone, but that is another story) .

Maybe it is a good idea to think of other horns like woodwind. A saxophone reed is in the open phase when not blown. The reed is still conected in the same way when it is played, but it is doing the open/closed trick like trombone lips do. There is a difference, the saxophone can´t start with a closed reed/mothpiece it must start with the open phase and lett the airflow start the close/open rutin.

About what Reinhardt wrote about the tongue, I think it is a good idea to rad the book.

Wilktone · by **Wilktone** » 2021-09-16 11:49 a.m.

[quote="Basbasun"]Eh, Dave when the lips vibrate they do touch in phase open/closed. I don´t know really what you mean or if you don´t understand what I am writing.[/quote]

I understand now, but it can be confusing the way we sometimes are phrasing the descriptions in this thread (which is very similar to how the Chop Shop video is phrasing his description in a vague manner that leaves much open to interpretation).

[quote="Basbasun"]What Dione Tucker and Magnussen is demonstrating is that holding their lips partly open, the airflow can get them to vibrate.[/quote]

The above quote was what I was responding to. You wrote that those players are "holding their lips partly open." That can imply that they are *keeping* their lips open while playing the instrument. That is what Magnussen actually claims is happening when he plays (which I doubt).

Tucker doesn't clarify in the video we've been discussing, but I recall hearing him mention that the aperture opens and closes in another video of his, so I don't think he's implying the same as Magnuessn. Tucker just leaves it ambiguous, which can be confusing.

[quote="Basbasun"]About what Reinhardt wrote about the tongue, I think it is a good idea to rad the book.[/quote]

In his "Encyclopedia" Reinhardt mentions tonguing between the teeth and lips a number of times. Here is an excerpt.

According to the old-fashioned method of attack, the student was instructed that the tip of his tongue must penetrate between his teeth and lips as though he were sitting seeds, threads, or confetti from the top of his tongue. Unfortunately, this disastrous, destructive, and illegal method of attacking has been handed down by instruction books and teachers for many years...

No other single playing fault is more detrimental to range, flexibility, endurance, and playing confidence than the tongue penetration habit...

The principal evils caused by permitting the tip of the tongue to penetrate between the teeth and lips for the attack are based upon the fact that the mouthpiece is constantly bobbing and shifting its position during and detached tongued passages. This playing fault is caused by the performer's subconsciously releasing his mouthpiece playing pressure from against his lips prior to the attack, so that the tip of his tongue is permitted to penetrate between his teeth and lips. While the tongue snaps back into the mouth to release the air column, the mouthpiece is subconsciously thrust back to its normal position and pressure against the lips... In short, every time that this type of performer execute his attack, he is actually hitting himself with the mouthpiece3, hence his lips are subject to a tremendous beating.

Some players only will attach their initial attack this way and tongue behind the upper teeth and gums for the any attacks afterwards. Some performers will only tongue against the lips for the low register. In those circumstances I would imagine that the problem Reinhardt notes would be less of an impact, but I still prefer to try to keep my tongue off my lips as much as possible and teach my students to reduce or eliminate tonguing off the lips too.

Dave

Kbiggs · by **Kbiggs** » 2021-09-16 12:11 p.m.

[quote="Wilktone"]<QUOTE author="Basbasun" post_id="157639" time="1631781787" user_id="196">
About what Reinhardt wrote about the tongue, I think it is a good idea to rad the book.[/quote]

In his "Encyclopedia" Reinhardt mentions tonguing between the teeth and lips a number of times. Here is an excerpt.

According to the old-fashioned method of attack, the student was instructed that the tip of his tongue must penetrate between his teeth and lips as though he were sitting seeds, threads, or confetti from the top of his tongue. Unfortunately, this disastrous, destructive, and illegal method of attacking has been handed down by instruction books and teachers for many years...

No other single playing fault is more detrimental to range, flexibility, endurance, and playing confidence than the tongue penetration habit...

The principal evils caused by permitting the tip of the tongue to penetrate between the teeth and lips for the attack are based upon the fact that the mouthpiece is constantly bobbing and shifting its position during and detached tongued passages. This playing fault is caused by the performer's subconsciously releasing his mouthpiece playing pressure from against his lips prior to the attack, so that the tip of his tongue is permitted to penetrate between his teeth and lips. While the tongue snaps back into the mouth to release the air column, the mouthpiece is subconsciously thrust back to its normal position and pressure against the lips... In short, every time that this type of performer execute his attack, he is actually hitting himself with the mouthpiece3, hence his lips are subject to a tremendous beating.

Some players only will attach their initial attack this way and tongue behind the upper teeth and gums for the any attacks afterwards. Some performers will only tongue against the lips for the low register. In those circumstances I would imagine that the problem Reinhardt notes would be less of an impact, but I still prefer to try to keep my tongue off my lips as much as possible and teach my students to reduce or eliminate tonguing off the lips too.

Dave
</QUOTE>

Coincidental that you posted this. I noticed many years ago that I tend to do just that: the initial note of a phrase was often with the tongue touching the lips between the teeth, while most subsequent articulations during that same use of the breath were just above the teeth. I’ve been working on starting notes with a breath attack, and then playing the same etude or passage with a very light “duh” tongue to start notes. I believe my notes are less explosive this way, and my tongue does not tire as easily.

I still tend to get notes that are “split” at the very beginning, and come out as a “splee-ahh,” if you know what I mean. It’s decreasing, which I take as a good sign. But that’s a slightly different problem related to formation of the lips and being prepared during inhalation.

Another thing that I’ve noticed recently: I still keep my corners firm and the lower lip smooth and flat, but I’m not as “tight” across the lower lip (less “smile,” if you will). I believe—and I may be be wrong here—that doing so is allowing more of the lip to vibrate freely. It has also allowed me to push the tuning slide way in (maybe 1/8” out), and I’m getting less fatigued. I believe I was playing “under the pitch” and using a lot of embouchure strength to bring notes up to pitch.

At least, that’s what I’m telling myself… 😉

Basbasun · by **Basbasun** » 2021-09-16 2:42 p.m.

Yes Magnussen have an idea of the lips staying open in the vibration when playing. It can feel like that, but that is not my idea. Or Dian Tuckers idea.

The thing in the book is not that one, it is about open the lips with the tongue, I can´t find the book at the moment, and I have very little time to look for it. maybe I find it latter.

timothy42b · by **timothy42b** » 2021-09-18 11:15 a.m.

This guy plays well, has some weird ideas (where you breathe affects the length of the air column).

<YOUTUBE id="8mhz4TQReVM">https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8mhz4TQReVM</YOUTUBE>

timothy42b · by **timothy42b** » 2021-09-18 11:22 a.m.

[quote="timothy42b"]This guy plays well, has some weird ideas (where you breathe affects the length of the air column).

<YOUTUBE id="8mhz4TQReVM">https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8mhz4TQReVM</YOUTUBE>[/quote]

Interesting about tongue position and range, also does a demonstration playing with corners open.

baileyman · by **baileyman** » 2021-09-19 8:59 a.m.

"playing low with the high compression set"

"relaxing down instead of lifting up"

"It's not air flow but air pressure"

Interesting stuff.

Wilktone · by **Wilktone** » 2021-09-20 8:49 a.m.

Yeah, I haven't made it all the way through the entire interview. His discussion about the length of the air column can't be technically accurate, but if it helps him or others figure out how to breathe then it's no different than some of the other things we've been discussing here.

timothy42b · by **timothy42b** » 2021-09-21 7:49 a.m.

[quote="Wilktone"]Yeah, I haven't made it all the way through the entire interview. His discussion about the length of the air column can't be technically accurate, but if it helps him or others figure out how to breathe then it's no different than some of the other things we've been discussing here.[/quote]

Yes, I almost stopped there thinking he was way off base, but I kept listening and the rest of it made sense.

Interesting demonstration playing with the corners open and gapped.

Oslide · by **Oslide** » 2021-10-14 7:06 p.m.

An unusual silence...

robcat2075 · by **robcat2075** » 2021-10-14 10:21 p.m.

[quote="harrisonreed"]<QUOTE author="robcat2075" post_id="156513" time="1630547918" user_id="3697">
It's really not clear what you are proposing anymore.[/quote]

I'm just illustrating that you don't like the concept being discussed no matter who is teaching it, because you are taking them too literally....
</QUOTE>

So i guess he was being ironic. That is such a good tactic in instructional video.*

Perhaps we need a second video, to explain what was literally meant by the first video.

* I used irony there.

-

harrisonreed · by **harrisonreed** » 2021-10-15 7:58 a.m.

[quote="robcat2075"]<QUOTE author="harrisonreed" post_id="156521" time="1630553553" user_id="3642">

I'm just illustrating that you don't like the concept being discussed no matter who is teaching it, because you are taking them too literally....[/quote]

So i guess he was being ironic. That is such a good tactic in instructional video.*

Perhaps we need a second video, to explain what was literally meant by the first video.

* I used irony there.

-
</QUOTE>

No idea why you are digging this back up, from over a month ago.

Oslide · by **Oslide** » 2021-10-15 8:41 p.m.

To be clear, I was referring

[quote="Oslide"]An unusual silence...[/quote]

to the almost total absence of reactions to the video of Dowdeswell

[quote="timothy42b"]This guy plays well, has some weird ideas (where you breathe affects the length of the air column).

<YOUTUBE id="8mhz4TQReVM">https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8mhz4TQReVM</YOUTUBE>[/quote]

I would have expected - and loved to read - more comments on his views.

baileyman · by **baileyman** » 2021-10-17 5:52 p.m.

I was hoping he would read the thread and engage some folks.

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