Trombone with F/attachment for both Jazz/Orchestra

Info4Mom · by **Info4Mom** » 2021-09-16 4:24 p.m.

My 5’ tall petite daughter is in 8th grade and wants to upgrade to a medium/large bore trombone with f/attachment. She has been playing on a student small bore trombone since 5th grade. She doesn’t quite know whether she likes jazz more or the band side when in High School, so ideally a trombone that can serve both will be great. Given her small statue, is there any light weight and not super big trombone suitable for her?

hyperbolica · by **hyperbolica** » 2021-09-16 4:26 p.m.

King 3B w/ F or a Bach 36b. The 3b will lean a little more jazz, the Bach will lean a little band/orchestra. 3b is probably better suited for small folks.

Doug_Elliott · by **Doug_Elliott** » 2021-09-16 4:32 p.m.

See if she can try both of those horns somewhere, to see how holding them goes. The 36B might be more challenging for small hands. I would think about the 3B/F now and the 36B or equivalent in another brand in another 2 years.

MTbassbone · by **MTbassbone** » 2021-09-16 5:18 p.m.

What about a Yamaha YSL-640? I don't have personal experience with this model but seems like another option that ticks the boxes.

Finetales · by **Finetales** » 2021-09-16 10:19 p.m.

At this point because I've read this thread and nobody has said Yamaha YSL-356 yet, I'm legally obligated to. That and the 3BF are the perennial recommendations around here for small horns with F attachments.

Other horns that might work:

- Olds Ambassador A-20/Recording R-20/Super Star V-20

- Reynolds Contempora TO-12/Contempora 35

- King 3B+F

- Benge 175F

But yes, regardless of what horn you pick, make sure she gets to hold and play it first.

hyperbolica · by **hyperbolica** » 2021-09-17 7:58 a.m.

There are some older discontinued horns, too, like Olds Recording w/f, 79h, Selmer Bolero. Although vintage horns are probably not the best choice for kids.

King 607/608 is a lower cost alternative to the Bach 36b that might also be a good option. They are still in production, easy to find, and can be had used.

Info4Mom · by **Info4Mom** » 2021-09-17 11:50 a.m.

Thank you for suggesting some of these horns for us to look at and try. Buying used will be ideal since she just started 8th grade.

Info4Mom · by **Info4Mom** » 2021-09-17 2:03 p.m.

Between Yamaha YSL-640 and YSL-456G which would be a better choice ?

Bach5G · by **Bach5G** » 2021-09-17 3:02 p.m.

The 6## series was/is Yam’s basic pro series (below the Xenos). The 4## series was considered a step-up from the student level horns.

BGuttman · by **BGuttman** » 2021-09-17 3:05 p.m.

The 640 is considered a "pro" horn while the 456 is considered a "step-up" horn. I think you'd be hard pressed to tell them apart from a distance.

Incidentally, the 640 replaced the 684, which replaced the 646. A 684 or 646 in good shape used is also a great choice.

Doug_Elliott · by **Doug_Elliott** » 2021-09-17 3:40 p.m.

With Yamaha I would not take the "student," "step up," or "professional" labels very seriously. The 300 series horns often play just as well if not better than the higher models.

BGuttman · by **BGuttman** » 2021-09-17 3:48 p.m.

[quote="Doug Elliott"]With Yamaha I would not take the "student," "step up," or "professional" labels very seriously. The 300 series horns often play just as well if not better than the higher models.[/quote]

This is from a guy who won his audition to the Airmen of Note on a Yamaha 3xx series horn.

Posaunus · by **Posaunus** » 2021-09-17 5:07 p.m.

[quote="Doug Elliott"]With Yamaha I would not take the "student," "step up," or "professional" labels very seriously. The 300 series horns often play just as well if not better than the higher models.[/quote]

I agree. The Yamaha YBL 421G is (in my mind) a professional level bass trombone - but it has only one valve! And I liked the YSL-620 that I tried more than I did the "Xeno" YSL-882. As in my day (decades ago) with Olds trombones, all Yamaha trombones - "student" through "professional" - now seem to be high-quality, robust, and very "playable." :good:

Pezza · by **Pezza** » 2021-09-30 8:32 a.m.

The Yamaha 456 is easy to blow and has a lighter tone. Good for big band / concert band / brass band. A bit light for orchestra.

Bach 36 is an excellent all round tenor trombone. Will do everything from 1st in a big band to 2nd in an orchestra. At a pinch it will do bass, just with a lighter tone.

Both are 0.525 medium large bore.

Smaller tenor bores lean towards big band, but not really suited to orchestra.

Larger tenor bores lean towards orchestra, but not really suited to big band. Tho they can double as a bass trombone.

harrisonreed · by **harrisonreed** » 2021-09-30 5:57 p.m.

So, I know it is not such a big deal for an 8th grader, but where I would use my King 3BF silversonic (sterling bell instead of brass) in an orchestra setting if needed, I don't think I would use the brass version, at least the new brass version, on anything other than like a pops concert or maybe film music -- those horns absolutely rip and basically just have an On/Off switch. We all LOVE the brass 3BFs in our stage band and NOLO band, though, over here in Japan. I haven't tried the brass 3BF with a larger mouthpiece, however, and they might really mellow out with something like a DE E or F cup setup. The Silversonic, though, is like a chameleon. You can make that thing sound like whatever you want on just the C+, even on bass parts :shock: .

I think this really is where the .525 horns might be where you move kids to who are really into their music. I have the luxury of having a car and driving to work with three trombones -- kids don't. A 36B or student Yamaha is probably just right for a kid who loves music to lug around school or onto a bus.

Finetales · by **Finetales** » 2021-10-01 1:27 a.m.

[quote="harrisonreed"]I don't think I would use the brass version, at least the new brass version, on anything other than like a pops concert or maybe film music -- those horns absolutely rip and basically just have an On/Off switch. We all LOVE the brass 3BFs in our stage band and NOLO band, though, over here in Japan. I haven't tried the brass 3BF with a larger mouthpiece, however, and they might really mellow out with something like a DE E or F cup setup.[/quote]

My yellow 3B and 3BF are a lot more nuanced than just an on/off switch. They can bring the heat better than most anything else, sure, but they are perfectly at home and sound appropriate for brass quintet and certain orchestral recording sessions with a Hammond 11M mouthpiece. All 3Bs are chameleons when paired with the right piece, and one of the 3B's charms is that it works without fuss with pretty much ANY mouthpiece.

Burgerbob · by **Burgerbob** » 2021-10-01 1:28 a.m.

[quote="Finetales"]<QUOTE author="harrisonreed" post_id="158902" time="1633039073" user_id="3642">
I don't think I would use the brass version, at least the new brass version, on anything other than like a pops concert or maybe film music -- those horns absolutely rip and basically just have an On/Off switch. We all LOVE the brass 3BFs in our stage band and NOLO band, though, over here in Japan. I haven't tried the brass 3BF with a larger mouthpiece, however, and they might really mellow out with something like a DE E or F cup setup.[/quote]

My yellow 3B and 3BF are a lot more nuanced than just an on/off switch. They can bring the heat better than most anything else, sure, but they are perfectly at home and sound appropriate for brass quintet and certain orchestral recording sessions with a Hammond 11M mouthpiece. All 3Bs are chameleons when paired with the right piece, and one of the 3B's charms is that it works without fuss with pretty much ANY mouthpiece.
</QUOTE>

Yup... my only problem with my 3B/F currently is that it leans a little TOO legit, if anything!

harrisonreed · by **harrisonreed** » 2021-10-01 4:31 a.m.

[quote="Burgerbob"]<QUOTE author="Finetales" post_id="158934" time="1633066027" user_id="136">

My yellow 3B and 3BF are a lot more nuanced than just an on/off switch. They can bring the heat better than most anything else, sure, but they are perfectly at home and sound appropriate for brass quintet and certain orchestral recording sessions with a Hammond 11M mouthpiece. All 3Bs are chameleons when paired with the right piece, and one of the 3B's charms is that it works without fuss with pretty much ANY mouthpiece.[/quote]

Yup... my only problem with my 3B/F currently is that it leans a little TOO legit, if anything!
</QUOTE>

Yeah but are you guys talking about 2020 models?

Matt_K · by **Matt_K** » 2021-10-01 5:44 a.m.

There a list of serials by year for 3B? The one I recently picked up is probably of an older vintage. But I too is quite versatile. I did remove the lacquer from much of it, fwiw. And it was that awful, thick orange stuff. I don’t know why they bothered to put nickel trimmings on these horns and then cover the whole thing up with that stuff.

It isn’t the horn I’m reaching for first for classical but with an XTG/G4 setup (or perhaps deeper), I wouldn’t necessarily not bring it to a classical gig depending on context. Definitely not the most one dimensional horn I’ve played let alone own.

watasnake · by **watasnake** » 2021-10-01 6:20 a.m.

Just get a Yamaha 446g, King 3Bf, or something .525. Do not get caught up in an equipment game this early. The kid is in 8th grade, don’t worry about “it’s more jazz or classical “ or whatever. Students her age are still picking noses and learning the difference between E and Eb. Get a mouthpiece that fits her face and a private instructor - probably not in that order.

BGuttman · by **BGuttman** » 2021-10-01 7:34 a.m.

[quote="Matt K"]There a list of serials by year for 3B? The one I recently picked up is probably of an older vintage. But I too is quite versatile. I did remove the lacquer from much of it, fwiw. And it was that awful, thick orange stuff. I don’t know why they bothered to put nickel trimmings on these horns and then cover the whole thing up with that stuff.

...[/quote]

King serial numbers were consistent across all models until it hit 999999 some time in the mid 1990s. Then they rolled over to 100000. You can look at any of the King serial lists to get an estimate on the age of your horn.

Just to calibrate: A Silvertone 2B from 1947 was 2xxxxx. My King 7B from 1981 was 897xxx.

So if you find a 606, 2B+, 3B+, 3B, 4B, or 5B with a serial number that indicates earlier than 1955 it's not that old; it's after the rollover.

Back on topic, the King 3BF is a great all-around horn for a student. I even know adults who use them for all of the parts in community Orchestras. And in Big Band it's perfectly suited to 2nd and 3rd, occasionally for lead, and in a pinch for "bass".

harrisonreed · by **harrisonreed** » 2021-10-01 7:53 a.m.

Yeah, the 1969 3BFSS is completely malleable and can do anything. The 2020 brass 3BF is built differently and rips like crazy. They aren't the same horn, is what I was saying.

BGuttman · by **BGuttman** » 2021-10-01 9:55 a.m.

[quote="harrisonreed"]Yeah, the 1969 3BFSS is completely malleable and can do anything. The 2020 brass 3BF is built differently and rips like crazy. They aren't the same horn, is what I was saying.[/quote]

Interesting. Both the people I know who played 3B-F trombones in symphony and concert band had instruments from around the late 1960s. Don't know anybody playing a newer one.

Matt_K · by **Matt_K** » 2021-10-01 10:09 a.m.

Interesting. Mine is 4169xx which probably puts it ~60s too.

Blenky · by **Blenky** » 2021-10-01 4:41 p.m.

I was looking for a decent medium bore a few months ago and tried out the 3B and the Bach 36 in many guises but it wasn’t until I picked up a Yamaha YSL-640 that I knew I’d found the perfect instrument for me.

I’m just an enthusiastic amateur, but I found this the easiest instrument to play and the valve and slide were way better than the much more expensive horns.

The sound is almost as big as my 88h when pushed.

Each to their own, but the 640 is hands down the easiest horn to just pick up and play that I’ve ever tried.

PaulT · by **PaulT** » 2021-10-01 11:47 p.m.

I can use the slide of my 640 as a carpenters' level. The slightest inclination and off it goes without a hitch all by itself. It is a wonderful instrument.

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Trombone with F/attachment for both Jazz/Orchestra