German beer band instruments

hyperbolica · by **hyperbolica** » 2021-10-25 4:28 p.m.

What horns are these guys playing? It looks like soprano, alto and tenor something. In a different part of the world they might be fiscorns. Bass trumpets? Flugels? In one of the videos one of the guys has a very pricy Schagerl Wunderhorn.

The Mnozil guys seem to have come out of this tradition. A lot of the videos show them sitting around a pub table playing over full tankards.

<YOUTUBE id="gO9HTRyH5C0">~~[media]~~https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=gO9HTRyH5C0</YOUTUBE>

Burgerbob · by **Burgerbob** » 2021-10-25 4:32 p.m.

[quote="hyperbolica"]

The Mnozil guys seem to have come out of this tradition. A lot of the videos show them sitting around a pub table playing over full tankards.
[/quote]

In case someone hasn't seen that one...

<FACEBOOK id="2997417056993629" type="v" user="sepp.atzmanstorfer">~~[media]~~<LINK_TEXT text="https://www.facebook.com/sepp.atzmansto ... 7056993629">https://www.facebook.com/sepp.atzmanstorfer/videos/2997417056993629</LINK_TEXT></FACEBOOK>

walldaja · by **walldaja** » 2021-10-25 4:45 p.m.

I've never seen a harp in a German band. Thanks for that education. Looks like the three similar horns are a couple of rotary trumpets and something rotary else--looks like he has a trombonish looking mouthpiece. Can't be a German band without a tuba.

Perhaps they are thinking we sound better the more we drink?

BGuttman · by **BGuttman** » 2021-10-25 5:01 p.m.

Looks like two "sidewinder" trumpets and a bass version ("sidewinder baritone"?). With a button accordion, harp, and a tuba.

hyperbolica · by **hyperbolica** » 2021-10-25 5:35 p.m.

[quote="walldaja"]I've never seen a harp in a German band. Thanks for that education. Looks like the three similar horns are a couple of rotary trumpets and something rotary else--looks like he has a trombonish looking mouthpiece. Can't be a German band without a tuba.

Perhaps they are thinking we sound better the more we drink?[/quote]

Those aren't trumpets, and the two smaller ones aren't the same. The sound is much darker, the bell is bigger than a real trumpet. It looks like a rotary flugel and an F or Eb alto rotary flugel? and then a bass rotary flugel? Spanish and South American bands have something similar called fiscorn, sounds like a baritone.

<YOUTUBE id="ekFNhvKuhxg">~~[media]~~https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ekFNhvKuhxg</YOUTUBE>

And then whatever this is (turn down the volume and sneak up on it, this may be startling):

<YOUTUBE id="EzRLz2Yf1Jw">~~[media]~~https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=EzRLz2Yf1Jw</YOUTUBE>

And here's a cool fiscorn solo... but those big kazoos... Sounds like her majesty's cornetts and shawms.

<YOUTUBE id="uJEscdWaOA0">~~[media]~~https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=uJEscdWaOA0</YOUTUBE>

Burgerbob · by **Burgerbob** » 2021-10-25 5:45 p.m.

The tenor one is just a beer hall bass trumpet.

Posaunus · by **Posaunus** » 2021-10-25 6:36 p.m.

[quote="hyperbolica"]Spanish and South American bands have something similar called fiscorn, sounds like a baritone.

And here's a cool fiscorn solo... but <I>those big kazoo</I>s... Sounds like her majesty's cornetts and shawms.
[/quote]

The "kazoos" seem to be sort of shawm-like double-reed instruments. :idk:

I'd like to know more about them. [But I can't say that I'm enamored with the sound they produce!]

Anyone have useful information (instrument names, origin, history, current usage, ...)?

BGuttman · by **BGuttman** » 2021-10-25 8:08 p.m.

"Sidewinder" rotary valve instruments are popular in Eastern Europe. If you look carefully at Austrian orchestras you will see "horizontal" trumpets.

Given that rotary valves are about 2 decades older than Perinet (piston) valves, this is not unexpected.

hyperbolica · by **hyperbolica** » 2021-10-25 8:39 p.m.

[quote="Burgerbob"]<QUOTE author="hyperbolica" post_id="160780" time="1635193680" user_id="104">

In case someone hasn't seen that one...[/quote]

Actually I was referring to the group in the other video, not Mnozil, but they appear to be in the same pub

<YOUTUBE id="QQgvQxVEImA">~~[media]~~https://youtu.be/QQgvQxVEImA</YOUTUBE></QUOTE>

Burgerbob · by **Burgerbob** » 2021-10-25 8:42 p.m.

[quote="hyperbolica"]<QUOTE author="Burgerbob" post_id="160781" time="1635193930" user_id="3131">

Actually I was referring to the group in the other video, not Mnozil, but they appear to be in the same pub

<YOUTUBE id="QQgvQxVEImA">~~[media]~~https://youtu.be/QQgvQxVEImA</YOUTUBE>[/quote]

Yup, that's the one I'm referring to.

<LINK_TEXT text="https://www.ebay.de/itm/294479805521?ha ... Sw1BdhcB23">https://www.ebay.de/itm/294479805521?hash=item44905d3c51:g:PQUAAOSw1BdhcB23</LINK_TEXT></QUOTE>

Posaunus · 2021-10-25 9:17 p.m.

They are indeed modern shawms, from Catalonia:

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Catalan_shawm

http://www.coblabaixllobregat.com/Tible.htm

http://www.coblabaixllobregat.com/Tenora.htm

I still haven't identified the little piccolo "fife" played with the left hand while the player occasionally strikes, with a stick in his right hand, what looks like a small drum on a neck strap.

<YOUTUBE id="vzJKLIOfMYw">https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vzJKLIOfMYw</YOUTUBE>

Would love to know more about this apparently traditional Catalan music:

<YOUTUBE id="GUtH8rYbAEA">https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=GUtH8rYbAEA</YOUTUBE>

hyperbolica · by **hyperbolica** » 2021-10-25 9:31 p.m.

[quote="Posaunus"]They are indeed modern shawms, from Catalonia:

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Catalan_shawm

http://www.coblabaixllobregat.com/Tible.htm

http://www.coblabaixllobregat.com/Tenora.htm

I still haven't identified the little piccolo "fife" played with the left hand while the player occasionally strikes, with a stick in his right hand, what looks like a small elbow-mounted drum. Would love to know more about this apparently traditional Catalan music:

<YOUTUBE id="GUtH8rYbAEA">https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=GUtH8rYbAEA</YOUTUBE>[/quote]
Geez, that is shrill.

hyperbolica · by **hyperbolica** » 2021-10-25 9:40 p.m.

[quote="Burgerbob"]

<LINK_TEXT text="https://www.ebay.de/itm/294479805521?ha ... Sw1BdhcB23">https://www.ebay.de/itm/294479805521?hash=item44905d3c51:g:PQUAAOSw1BdhcB23</LINK_TEXT>[/quote]

Leonhard Paul is playing his Wunderhorn. That eBay itm is just 3 valves, these guys are all playing 4 valves.

Here's another odd one: <LINK_TEXT text="https://www.ebay.com/itm/Fantastic-Kuhl ... 634-2357-0">https://www.ebay.com/itm/Fantastic-Kuhlohorn-H-Haase-Frets-/275000348504?mkcid=16&mkevt=1&_trksid=p2349624.m46890.l49286&mkrid=707-127634-2357-0</LINK_TEXT>

<ATTACHMENT filename="Screenshot_20211025-213914.png" index="0">~~[attachment=0]~~Screenshot_20211025-213914.png</ATTACHMENT>

u_2bobone · by **u_2bobone** » 2021-10-25 10:15 p.m.

I have owned a "Tenor Horn" made by Mirafone for well over 50 years that I bought as a student at The Eastman School of Music from a classmate, Roger Bobo, the famous tubist, who was the first importer of Mirafone instruments into the US. [Roger had a Mirafone tuba and contrabass trombone]. It looks to be identical to the instrument that is often seen played by the "Lonely Boy" of the Mnozil Brass. It has side action rotary valves and is pitched in B Flat. Throughout its life it has seen use as a tenor horn in a Salvation Army style band, as a bass trumpet on NSO recordings of Wagner, as a Jazz horn on combo dates and as my horn used in a basic training band in the U.S. Army !

THAT is what I call versatile !

CalgaryTbone · by **CalgaryTbone** » 2021-10-25 10:27 p.m.

[quote="hyperbolica"]<QUOTE author="Burgerbob" post_id="160809" time="1635208934" user_id="3131">

<LINK_TEXT text="https://www.ebay.de/itm/294479805521?ha ... Sw1BdhcB23">https://www.ebay.de/itm/294479805521?hash=item44905d3c51:g:PQUAAOSw1BdhcB23</LINK_TEXT>[/quote]

Leonhard Paul is playing his Wunderhorn. That eBay itm is just 3 valves, these guys are all playing 4 valves.

Here's another odd one: <LINK_TEXT text="https://www.ebay.com/itm/Fantastic-Kuhl ... 634-2357-0">https://www.ebay.com/itm/Fantastic-Kuhlohorn-H-Haase-Frets-/275000348504?mkcid=16&mkevt=1&_trksid=p2349624.m46890.l49286&mkrid=707-127634-2357-0</LINK_TEXT>

Screenshot_20211025-213914.png
</QUOTE>

That's a rotary valve Flugelhorn (or perhaps a Post Horn). I'm not sure what exactly what separates the two - probably just regional differences as to what to call them. Some German/Austrian manufacturers make Flugelhorns like this that are sometimes referred to as "oval" (the shape).

Jim Scott

Finetales · by **Finetales** » 2021-10-26 12:30 a.m.

[quote="hyperbolica"]What horns are these guys playing? It looks like soprano, alto and tenor something. In a different part of the world they might be fiscorns. Bass trumpets? Flugels? In one of the videos one of the guys has a very pricy Schagerl Wunderhorn.[/quote]

From left to right: rotary flugelhorn, Eb bass trumpet, bass flugelhorn. Pretty common in those groups for a bass trumpet to be the middle voice. Rotary bass trumpets are not all the narrow bore orchestral instruments we usually think of.

[quote="hyperbolica"]Here's another odd one:[/quote]

Most accurately, that is a Kuhlohorn, which is a short-form flugelhorn. In the traditional German Posaunenchor, you'd have trombones up through alto playing most of the parts, and then specifically Kuhlohorns playing the highest parts. They sound slightly different than typically-wrapped flugelhorns.

MrHCinDE · by **MrHCinDE** » 2021-10-26 1:24 a.m.

[quote="Finetales"]<QUOTE author="hyperbolica">What horns are these guys playing? It looks like soprano, alto and tenor something. In a different part of the world they might be fiscorns. Bass trumpets? Flugels? In one of the videos one of the guys has a very pricy Schagerl Wunderhorn.[/quote]

From left to right: rotary flugelhorn, Eb bass trumpet, bass flugelhorn. Pretty common in those groups for a bass trumpet to be the middle voice. Rotary bass trumpets are not all the narrow bore orchestral instruments we usually think of.</QUOTE>

I think you’re spot on here

Doug_Elliott · by **Doug_Elliott** » 2021-10-26 3:00 a.m.

The Catalonian instruments are a different subject entirely except they do use a C bass flugelhorn and a C valve trombone. I heard one of those bands when I was there for the ITF in Valencia. That's the traditional instrumentation, and the tiny fife and drum on the arm is how every tune starts. They play for a traditional Catalonian dance and it's really pretty cool.

hyperbolica · by **hyperbolica** » 2021-10-26 6:33 a.m.

[quote="Finetales"]

From left to right: rotary flugelhorn, Eb bass trumpet, bass flugelhorn. Pretty common in those groups for a bass trumpet to be the middle voice. Rotary bass trumpets are not all the narrow bore orchestral instruments we usually think of.
[/quote]

Ah, yes, I should have expected you to have the answer to a valved mystery. Very interesting. Kind of a cool blend they get, less grating than typical trumpets.

hyperbolica · by **hyperbolica** » 2021-10-26 10:25 a.m.

Here's one with one of those german valve trombones. You can see a little cimbasso and a little of where that odd grip on the Schagerl James Morison SuperBone (<LINK_TEXT text="https://schagerl.com/meisterinstrumente ... superbone/">https://schagerl.com/meisterinstrumente/instrument/superbone/</LINK_TEXT>) must have come from.

timothy42b · by **timothy42b** » 2021-10-26 10:49 a.m.

[quote="2bobone"]I have owned a "Tenor Horn" made by Mirafone for well over 50 years[/quote]

Some time back I played in a European Wind Ensemble that carried 3 trombones, 4 trumpets, 4 fluegelhorns, 2 tenor horns and 2 euphoniums. And, of course, the rest of the band instruments except saxophone; the director hated sax. Clarinet and Eb clarinet, etc.

I've been playing with them again lately but the numbers are no longer there. We can have trumpet or fluegel but not both! The real fluegel sound adds a lot.

The tenor horns, not so much, with the music we played. My impression was that much of the music we played did not pay a lot of attention to timbre and often doubled the accompaniment parts across trombone, euph, tenor, and horn.

BGuttman · by **BGuttman** » 2021-10-26 10:56 a.m.

A lot of the Oktoberfest music I had was set up for a Hungry Five or Happy Five band of 2 clarinets, 1 or 2 cornets, Trombone or Euphonium, Tuba, and optional percussion. So this beerhall band has the requisite instruments (sorta) with high Flugel, medium Flugel, bass Flugel, and Tuba. Supplemented with two C melody instruments (harp and accordion [Bandoneon]).

hyperbolica · by **hyperbolica** » 2021-10-26 11:07 a.m.

I'm kind of fascinated by this topic. Maybe obsessed is the word. Jurgen Voigt seems to be one source. Stomvi another. Voigt makes the Kuhlo-flugels and Bass Flugels/Fiscornos. Maybe this is too general, but the German ones seem to be in Bb, and the Chinese Fiscorns tend to be in C, like some of the Spanish valve trombones. American equivalent seems to be roughly marching baritone with piston valves.

<LINK_TEXT text="https://shop.voigt-brass.de/en/MASTER-I ... UGELHORNS/">https://shop.voigt-brass.de/en/MASTER-INSTRUMENTS/FLUGELHORNS/</LINK_TEXT>

hyperbolica · by **hyperbolica** » 2021-10-26 1:49 p.m.

The main band that I've been following is WudaraMusi, Flugel, bass trumpet, harp, accordion and tuba.

Their personnel page confirms the flugel and bass trumpet diagnosis.

https://www.wuedaramusi.at/w%C3%BCdara/

Kbiggs · by **Kbiggs** » 2021-10-26 1:50 p.m.

[quote="BGuttman"]"Sidewinder" rotary valve instruments are popular in Eastern Europe. If you look carefully at Austrian orchestras you will see "horizontal" trumpets.
[/quote]

Bruce, do you have picture of a “sidewinder” instrument? I’m having trouble finding such a beast, and I can’t picture it in my head. The only thing I can think of is Schagerl’s Ganschhorn and their similar horns, which are really TARVs (top-action rotary valves).

hyperbolica · by **hyperbolica** » 2021-10-26 2:01 p.m.

[quote="Kbiggs"]<QUOTE author="BGuttman" post_id="160805" time="1635206939" user_id="53">
"Sidewinder" rotary valve instruments are popular in Eastern Europe. If you look carefully at Austrian orchestras you will see "horizontal" trumpets.
[/quote]

Bruce, do you have picture of a “sidewinder” instrument? I’m having trouble finding such a beast, and I can’t picture it in my head. The only thing I can think of is Schagerl’s Ganschhorn and their similar horns, which are really TARVs (top-action rotary valves).
</QUOTE>

No, he's just talking about rotary instruments that are turned 90 degrees from piston trumpets, cornets and flugels.

Finetales · by **Finetales** » 2021-10-26 2:39 p.m.

[quote="hyperbolica"]American equivalent seems to be roughly marching baritone with piston valves.[/quote]

Yep, spot on. Though interestingly enough, some marching baritones (e.g. the Blessing/Olds/Reynolds big brother to their flugabone we all know and love) trend more towards a bass cornet sound and feel. In the absence of an insanely rare actual bass cornet, they're the next best thing.

[quote="hyperbolica"]Jurgen Voigt seems to be one source. Stomvi another. Voigt makes the Kuhlo-flugels and Bass Flugels/Fiscornos. Maybe this is too general, but the German ones seem to be in Bb, and the Chinese Fiscorns tend to be in C, like some of the Spanish valve trombones.[/quote]

Some more brands for your enjoyment:

- ~~[url=http://www.worischek.de/index.php/2012-02-09-11-50-19/drehventil-bassfluegelhoerner]~~Worischek. These double shepherd's crook bass flugels are definitely the coolest looking in my opinion. They used to also have one in C on their website instead of the 4-valve B flat one...must have discontinued that one.

- ~~[url=https://www.weber-instrumente.de/instrumente/bassflügelhörner/]~~Weber. Their bass flugel is kind of like the Schagerl Wunderhorn V or the Gansch horn in that it's rotary valved, but top action (aka "TARV"). Looks a lot like a marching baritone from the left side!

- ~~[url=https://www.musikbeck.de/produkt-kategorie/cat_beck_meisterinstrumente/cat_beck_meisterinstrumente___fluegelhorn__corno/cat_beck_meisterinstrumente___fluegelhorn__corno___konzertfluegelhorn/]~~Beck. No bass flugels, but they do make a couple of Kuhlohorns.

u_2bobone · by **u_2bobone** » 2021-10-26 2:52 p.m.

This photo of my Mirafone "Tenor Horn" will either provide clarity or cause confusion. Let's see ! Incidentally, the mouthpiece is an early small shank "Remington" prototype. <LINK_TEXT text="https://trombonechat.com/download/file. ... w&id=11008">https://trombonechat.com/download/file.php?mode=view&id=11008</LINK_TEXT>

hyperbolica · by **hyperbolica** » 2021-10-26 2:58 p.m.

[quote="2bobone"]This photo of my Mirafone "Tenor Horn" will either provide clarity or cause confusion. Let's see ! Incidentally, the mouthpiece is an early small shank "Remington" prototype. <LINK_TEXT text="https://trombonechat.com/download/file. ... w&id=11008">https://trombonechat.com/download/file.php?mode=view&id=11008</LINK_TEXT>[/quote]

Is this in Eb?

timothy42b · by **timothy42b** » 2021-10-26 3:23 p.m.

[quote="2bobone"]This photo of my Mirafone "Tenor Horn" will either provide clarity or cause confusion. Let's see ! Incidentally, the mouthpiece is an early small shank "Remington" prototype. <LINK_TEXT text="https://trombonechat.com/download/file. ... w&id=11008">https://trombonechat.com/download/file.php?mode=view&id=11008</LINK_TEXT>[/quote]

In my brain a tenor horn was always a curved or oval looking version. I was surprised to see yours with a straight bell.

u_2bobone · by **u_2bobone** » 2021-10-26 4:38 p.m.

The horn pictured was listed in the Mirafone catalogue of the time as a "Tenor Horn in B Flat". I always considered it to be more like a bass flugelhorn. Whenever I'd take it on a dance gig, the leader would ask me to put the trombone away and only play the Mirafone ! It was probably a snide comment on my slide capabilities at the time more than a desire to hear the tenor horn sound.

hyperbolica · by **hyperbolica** » 2021-10-26 4:47 p.m.

[quote="2bobone"]The horn pictured was listed in the Mirafone catalogue of the time as a "Tenor Horn in B Flat". I always considered it to be more like a bass flugelhorn. Whenever I'd take it on a dance gig, the leader would ask me to put the trombone away and only play the Mirafone ! It was probably a snide comment on my slide capabilities at the time more than a desire to hear the tenor horn sound.[/quote]

It has a bell taper more like a marching trombone. The things the germans above were using had a much bigger bell throat, and overall conical design. I've never seen a tenor horn like that. Mostly they are more in the baritone form factor.

u_2bobone · by **u_2bobone** » 2021-10-26 7:09 p.m.

As I once said, the "Lonely Boy" of the Mnozil Brass [Leonhard Paul] is seen on several videos playing what looks like this very same model of Mirafone. Beside the bell garland is engraved "Made in Germany" and directly below the well-known Mirafone logo is the number 1245. A model number or a serial number ---- I have no idea. It still plays great regardless !

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