Adding bumper springs?

patrickosmith · by **patrickosmith** » 2021-10-29 2:45 p.m.

I have a rare instrument that is a fantastic player horn in all regards ... except ... the D just above middle Bb is rather flat :tenorclef: :space4:

I like the sound quality of this note in 1st position much better than in the alternate 4th position so I don't want to just play D in 4th. It's a bit too flat to simply "lip it up" although that can work.

Is it feasible to retrofit the instrument to add a bumper spring? Are there any unintended consequences that may result?

It's a Frank Holton model 168 made in Elkhorn Wisconsin.

Burgerbob · by **Burgerbob** » 2021-10-29 2:46 p.m.

I'd do the cheaper mod of just playing Bb out a little bit.

timothy42b · by **timothy42b** » 2021-10-29 2:47 p.m.

Or the practice of a few of the pros here, just play with the tuning slide all the way in permanently.

BGuttman · by **BGuttman** » 2021-10-29 2:51 p.m.

As someone who always admired the 88H slide springs, when I bought my Yamaha 682G from Osmun Brass I had Bob install springs in it. He took a baritone valve spring, cut it in half, bent the cut end 90 degrees so it stuck out, and replaced the felt bumper with the two half-springs. It gives me a nice 1 cm (approx.) compression, which would answer your need perfectly. Any competent tech could duplicate this for you in case you can't get to Acton, Mass.

Kdanielsen · by **Kdanielsen** » 2021-10-29 3:04 p.m.

[quote="Burgerbob"]I'd do the cheaper mod of just playing Bb out a little bit.[/quote]

Bingo

hyperbolica · by **hyperbolica** » 2021-10-29 3:15 p.m.

My first lesson with John Swallow, he grabbed my 88h, took off the outer slide, bent a paper clip and pulled out my springs. "These damn things drive me f***in' crazy", and hands me back a trombone that no longer clicked in first position.

ithinknot · by **ithinknot** » 2021-10-29 3:18 p.m.

[quote="timothy42b"]Or the practice of a few of the pros here, just play with the tuning slide all the way in permanently.[/quote]

Hey, some of the dreadful amateurs too!

modelerdc · by **modelerdc** » 2021-10-29 4:13 p.m.

Having been raised on the 88H, I too used to add springs to horns that didn't come with them. I tried to make the intonation work off of where first position was. When I finally discarded springs like most players went to a floating 1st positions intonation got easier, as did playing different horns. Replace the springs with cork, play 1st out just a little bit to allow for tuning and technique, and don't look back.

mbtrombone · by **mbtrombone** » 2021-10-29 8:06 p.m.

I personally hate the springs in the first position as they always seem to click loudly enough to drive me nuts, but you could just tune as if you had the springs and then you would have the room to bring the hand slide in a bit for the D. At the least it would limit how much you would need to lip up?

I tune with my Bb just a touch out from fully in first, this also leads me to not us 7th all that much since it is just in a point where my joint is fully extended, so I use my F valve a fair amount. But also being a bass trombonist mostly I also use my Gb valve a ton also. More valves, more options! YAY!

Kdanielsen · by **Kdanielsen** » 2021-10-30 12:15 a.m.

It’s funny. I took the springs out of my alto (thinking that I would prefer it that way), but then wound up putting them back. I would never dream of putting springs in my other horns though. Not exactly why it feels right on the alto. It’s a weird horn, so maybe they are just part of the mystique.

harrisonreed · by **harrisonreed** » 2021-10-30 8:18 a.m.

1cm springs would not be enough for how long on the slide I play. It's more like 1.5-2 inches

As for the alto springs, yes -- I think the beginner ones should come with springs and instructions to play with the tuning slide in all the way. There is no way to rectify tunning Bb to a closed first and trying to play Ab at the bell on tenor. Even less of a way to rectify Eb Db on alto.

Kdanielsen · by **Kdanielsen** » 2021-10-30 1:13 p.m.

[quote="harrisonreed"]1cm springs would not be enough for how long on the slide I play. It's more like 1.5-2 inches

As for the alto springs, yes -- I think the beginner ones should come with springs and instructions to play with the tuning slide in all the way. There is no way to rectify tunning Bb to a closed first and trying to play Ab at the bell on tenor. Even less of a way to rectify Eb Db on alto.[/quote]

My Db in first is perfectly in tune! German style!

patrickosmith · by **patrickosmith** » 2021-11-04 8:45 p.m.

Well, I'm glad I asked. So much great advice!

biggiesmalls · by **biggiesmalls** » 2021-11-05 8:59 a.m.

I sold a Reynolds Stereophonic bass a while back that had dead quiet bumper springs. No idea why they were so much quieter that the Conn springs, which I find annoyingly loud.

I wish I had pulled out the Stereophonic springs and had a look at them. The compression distance was identical to the Conn springs, about one inch.

Notlich · by **Notlich** » 2022-08-27 8:57 a.m.

I have recently bought a used Bach 36 with f-attachment. It feels like there should be a spring there, like its lacking. Does that horn has a spring originally?

OneTon · by **OneTon** » 2022-08-27 11:20 a.m.

No Bach that I have seen came with springs. It is probably part of the “If it was good enough for Vincent Bach it should not be changed” mentality at Conn Selmer. My 88H had springs. I liked them for oh poop moments but I was already tuning sharp and playing off the springs or bumpers. These days the tuning slide is set at 10 cm. Whatever I play in 1st is never closer than 3 cm to bumpers or springs. My university professor insisted that I utilize alternate positions and achieve a seamless quality of timbre regardless of the position used. D above middle C gets played in 4th position. Any horn without a solid 3rd position Bb does not linger under my roof.

greenbean · by **greenbean** » 2022-08-27 4:01 p.m.

Years ago, I would immediately take spring out. But I have grown to like them. If a horn has them, great; if not, that is fine, too!...

CalgaryTbone · by **CalgaryTbone** » 2022-08-29 12:08 p.m.

As a happy accident, my 1950's Conn 8H was missing one spring when I bought it. I liked how that felt to play - less noise when you came into first, but a reminder of where a consistent slightly extended 1st position is.

Jim Scott

patrickosmith · by **patrickosmith** » 2022-08-29 12:56 p.m.

I decided to follow the advice of the group and not install any springs.

Stan72 · by **Stan72** » 2024-06-02 4:39 p.m.

Patrick,

Just read your post. I have a Holton 168, manufactured 1965, that has had first position bumper springs since I purchased it in 1971 from a former Crisafulli student. I love having the springs to optimize first position tuning as needed. I have never had issues with the playability of this Holton 168 due to the springs. Springs may be an older technology but I've become accustomed to using this feature over the years and can't imagine having a large bore tenor without this advantage.

Stan

Doubler · by **Doubler** » 2024-06-03 2:27 p.m.

[quote="OneTon"]These days the tuning slide is set at 10 cm. Whatever I play in 1st is never closer than 3 cm to bumpers or springs.[/quote]

May we presume that you meant mm instead of cm? 10 cm = ~4", and 3 cm = ~1-3/16".

biggiesmalls · by **biggiesmalls** » 2024-06-04 9:33 a.m.

A bit off topic, but I wish some wise tech could explain to me why the old Reynolds Contempora bass springs were so incredibly quiet compared to those noisy Conn springs?

BGuttman · by **BGuttman** » 2024-06-04 10:28 a.m.

[quote="biggiesmalls"]A bit off topic, but I wish some wise tech could explain to me why the old Reynolds Contempora bass springs were so incredibly quiet compared to those noisy Conn springs?[/quote]

Conn springs are similar to baritone horn valve springs. That makes them behave the way they do.

A heavier diameter spring wire will compress more linearly and not contact the inner slide or cork barrel while compressing resulting in a quieter operation. Example: my King 4B or 7B slide springs (which are also shorter than Conn).

biggiesmalls · by **biggiesmalls** » 2024-06-04 11:31 p.m.

Thanks for the explanation Bruce. I knew the Conn springs were rather light but I never extracted the Reynolds springs to compare them.

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Adding bumper springs?