Are Unsoldered Bells a Thing for Bass?
- harrisonreed
- Posts: 6479
- Joined: Aug 17, 2018
I am struggling with having to cover a bass part in a big band. I've got a brand new Yamaha independent bass (not mine) and a standard DE mouthpiece for bass (J/J8). It has a soldered bell. It's whatever the standard, top end Yamaha bass is right now, the YBL-830 I think. I absolutely hate it.
I can't really hear myself and I'm not getting any feedback from the horn. It's sort of just fog horn and mud. No snap, no projection, and no resistance whatsoever. With both valves it's a miracle that low notes speak at all.
I had a colleague try the horn who is a great bass player (I'm actually covering his part for when he is away), and he absolutely hates the bass I have too.
What could it be? Yamaha is known for their consistency and this is their top line bass, so I'm guessing it's probably not an issue with just this horn. Every horn I've loved with the exception of my 3B has been unsoldered. Could that be it? I'm a tenor player and I have a very powerful and extensive low range on tenor (even pedal C!) -- I'd think a bass setup would help that, not hinder it. If I had access to a different bass, I'd try it, but I don't.
The reason I'm curious about the soldered thing is that I had been forced to use a Yamaha xeno tenor years ago when they were a new line, and it had a soldered bell and it was a similar experience -- air went in and nothing happened. Stuffy, like the worst Bach 42.
Any ideas? What bass combo would be snappy and have some bark in it?
I can't really hear myself and I'm not getting any feedback from the horn. It's sort of just fog horn and mud. No snap, no projection, and no resistance whatsoever. With both valves it's a miracle that low notes speak at all.
I had a colleague try the horn who is a great bass player (I'm actually covering his part for when he is away), and he absolutely hates the bass I have too.
What could it be? Yamaha is known for their consistency and this is their top line bass, so I'm guessing it's probably not an issue with just this horn. Every horn I've loved with the exception of my 3B has been unsoldered. Could that be it? I'm a tenor player and I have a very powerful and extensive low range on tenor (even pedal C!) -- I'd think a bass setup would help that, not hinder it. If I had access to a different bass, I'd try it, but I don't.
The reason I'm curious about the soldered thing is that I had been forced to use a Yamaha xeno tenor years ago when they were a new line, and it had a soldered bell and it was a similar experience -- air went in and nothing happened. Stuffy, like the worst Bach 42.
Any ideas? What bass combo would be snappy and have some bark in it?
- paulyg
- Posts: 689
- Joined: May 17, 2018
Yup, they're a thing. I have a new conn-style schilke greenhoe with an unsoldered yellow bell. It definitely plays like an old conn.
Grab an old 70H/71H/72H/73H from Dillons (they have like a million for sale) and try it.
Grab an old 70H/71H/72H/73H from Dillons (they have like a million for sale) and try it.
- Burgerbob
- Posts: 6327
- Joined: Apr 23, 2018
1. I think a J setup would be pretty shallow on this horn, IMO. Especially with the 8 backbore, that's a small piece all around.
2. Yamaha consistency is a myth with the hand hammered bells (so most of the Xeno models). I've played nearly a dozen of the 830 model and they have all been completely different. All over the map from orchestral cannon to snappy response monster to nearly unplayable. I use a fully mediocre one at work.
Make sure the valves are oiled so they're not leaking, try some other mouthpieces. Could just be a bad xeno though, they're out there and there's more of them than you think. Paul had one that I played a while back!
Also, bass takes a different approach in general, and in the low range, than tenor does. I'd give it some time before going fully equipment-mad.
2. Yamaha consistency is a myth with the hand hammered bells (so most of the Xeno models). I've played nearly a dozen of the 830 model and they have all been completely different. All over the map from orchestral cannon to snappy response monster to nearly unplayable. I use a fully mediocre one at work.
Make sure the valves are oiled so they're not leaking, try some other mouthpieces. Could just be a bad xeno though, they're out there and there's more of them than you think. Paul had one that I played a while back!
Also, bass takes a different approach in general, and in the low range, than tenor does. I'd give it some time before going fully equipment-mad.
- harrisonreed
- Posts: 6479
- Joined: Aug 17, 2018
What about the 62H? Was that ever unsoldered? Probably only when the slide was TIS, right?
- harrisonreed
- Posts: 6479
- Joined: Aug 17, 2018
[quote="Burgerbob"]1. I think a J setup would be pretty shallow on this horn, IMO. Especially with the 8 backbore, that's a small piece all around.
2. Yamaha consistency is a myth with the hand hammered bells (so most of the Xeno models). I've played nearly a dozen of the 830 model and they have all been completely different. All over the map from orchestral cannon to snappy response monster to nearly unplayable. I use a fully mediocre one at work.
Make sure the valves are oiled so they're not leaking, try some other mouthpieces. Could just be a bad xeno though, they're out there and there's more of them than you think. Paul had one that I played a while back![/quote]
As for the mouthpiece, I'm a tenor player. I probably don't want to go any bigger or deeper. I'm already having focus issues, it seems
Yeah, I basically just want a horn that is very snappy/tight, and has good resistance in it (ie, when the air hits the leadpipe, sound happens right away and pushes back on my face).
This is how my T-396 is ^
Maybe Edwards has what I need, but.... Not spending that.
What about the old king basses?
2. Yamaha consistency is a myth with the hand hammered bells (so most of the Xeno models). I've played nearly a dozen of the 830 model and they have all been completely different. All over the map from orchestral cannon to snappy response monster to nearly unplayable. I use a fully mediocre one at work.
Make sure the valves are oiled so they're not leaking, try some other mouthpieces. Could just be a bad xeno though, they're out there and there's more of them than you think. Paul had one that I played a while back![/quote]
As for the mouthpiece, I'm a tenor player. I probably don't want to go any bigger or deeper. I'm already having focus issues, it seems
Yeah, I basically just want a horn that is very snappy/tight, and has good resistance in it (ie, when the air hits the leadpipe, sound happens right away and pushes back on my face).
This is how my T-396 is ^
Maybe Edwards has what I need, but.... Not spending that.
What about the old king basses?
- Burgerbob
- Posts: 6327
- Joined: Apr 23, 2018
[quote="harrisonreed"]
As for the mouthpiece, I'm a tenor player. I probably don't want to go any bigger or deeper. I'm already having focus issues, it seems
Yeah, I basically just want a horn that is very snappy/tight, and has good resistance in it (ie, when the air hits the leadpipe, sound happens right away and pushes back on my face).
This is how my T-396 is ^
Maybe Edwards has what I need, but.... Not spending that.
What about the old king basses?[/quote]
It's all a balance. If the mouthpiece is too small, it'll just play badly (you know this from tenor as well).
Kings are a whole different world.
As for the mouthpiece, I'm a tenor player. I probably don't want to go any bigger or deeper. I'm already having focus issues, it seems
Yeah, I basically just want a horn that is very snappy/tight, and has good resistance in it (ie, when the air hits the leadpipe, sound happens right away and pushes back on my face).
This is how my T-396 is ^
Maybe Edwards has what I need, but.... Not spending that.
What about the old king basses?[/quote]
It's all a balance. If the mouthpiece is too small, it'll just play badly (you know this from tenor as well).
Kings are a whole different world.
- BGuttman
- Posts: 7368
- Joined: Mar 22, 2018
If you are playing mostly Big Band you probably will find a King 6B (dependent), 7B (indy) or 8B (also indy, bigger bell) to be just the ticket. I love my 7B for just about any bass use, but I am a little odd with respect to orchestra. My 7B also works great with a 1.5 G or 2 G size mouthpiece. Does your unit have one to loan you?
- Jimkinkella
- Posts: 286
- Joined: Mar 23, 2018
As a tenor player, my base bass mouthpiece is a DE 112K9.
Smaller doesn’t equal snappy.
I have others, but that’s where I start when I have to cover.
Smaller doesn’t equal snappy.
I have others, but that’s where I start when I have to cover.
- Jimkinkella
- Posts: 286
- Joined: Mar 23, 2018
As a tenor player my base bass mouthpiece is a DE 112K9.
Smaller doesn’t equal snappier, it’s all about the system and how the shape of the the things work with your face and approach.
Could be that the horn’s a dog, could be that the system doesn’t work together...
Too many variables, don’t discount the easy ones...
Smaller doesn’t equal snappier, it’s all about the system and how the shape of the the things work with your face and approach.
Could be that the horn’s a dog, could be that the system doesn’t work together...
Too many variables, don’t discount the easy ones...
- hyperbolica
- Posts: 3990
- Joined: Mar 23, 2018
I don't think the bell rim is your issue. That's comparatively subtle up against the bore size, bell taper, two valves, etc. I also lost a lot of low range when I started playing bass. It's a completely different animal. You have to find the resonance sweet spots all over again.
The old Conn singles would be a great option as well as the old Kings. They would be a more familiar blow and you could get away with the smaller mouthpiece.
I assume the switch is temporary.
If you don't really need the second valve, you might get away with a tweener horn. A Holton tr-159, certain 5b, several Olds, 88hk with a dual bore slide...
The old Conn singles would be a great option as well as the old Kings. They would be a more familiar blow and you could get away with the smaller mouthpiece.
I assume the switch is temporary.
If you don't really need the second valve, you might get away with a tweener horn. A Holton tr-159, certain 5b, several Olds, 88hk with a dual bore slide...
- harrisonreed
- Posts: 6479
- Joined: Aug 17, 2018
Yeah, thanks guys. My hangup is that, I have played Edwards basses (just to check them out) in the past that felt just fine with a 2G (similar to this DE setup I have), but I didn't know what spec they were other than that they were axial, indie. Also that a really great bass trombonist has said "this horn is terrible", in regards to this horn I have now. Just trying to educate myself as to what the other variables might be.
Doug's site says a 2G is equivalent to his I cup, already shallower than the J, which is twice as deep as my tenor piece. I'm doubting it's the mouthpiece causing this much issues. The rim is the same as a 2G. Granted, I haven't tested it on a different bass, so I will next week.
Also, yeah, this is only temporary. Bass trombone is not a passion for me. I just know that I've played random basses in the past and had no issues or figured them out faster than this bass I've been using for 6 months now.
It could be that the axial valves are better for me. I love an axial on tenor. The double valve thing is sort of non-negotiable -- too many C's and B's.
Maybe Chris knows, what are the specs on the Wessex you designed?
Doug's site says a 2G is equivalent to his I cup, already shallower than the J, which is twice as deep as my tenor piece. I'm doubting it's the mouthpiece causing this much issues. The rim is the same as a 2G. Granted, I haven't tested it on a different bass, so I will next week.
Also, yeah, this is only temporary. Bass trombone is not a passion for me. I just know that I've played random basses in the past and had no issues or figured them out faster than this bass I've been using for 6 months now.
It could be that the axial valves are better for me. I love an axial on tenor. The double valve thing is sort of non-negotiable -- too many C's and B's.
Maybe Chris knows, what are the specs on the Wessex you designed?
- paulyg
- Posts: 689
- Joined: May 17, 2018
The old single valve Conns have longer slides to allow an in-tune low C down there- very different from any Edwards you may be used to.
- harrisonreed
- Posts: 6479
- Joined: Aug 17, 2018
Update: I tracked down the Edwards basses I have tried:
The 502-I ... Unsoldered rose bell rotax indie, 2G
The 454-E ... Unsoldered yellow bell, axial indie, 2G
I liked both of those a lot, one was just a few minutes at ATW, the other was for a few months in Korea. Not enough to want to play bass, but enough to go, oh yeah, I GET this.
Hmmmm.....
Please keep the thoughts coming guys. It won't help me for this gig coming up, but might help me down the road.
I know it's a minor thing, but I think almost all my playing on tenor is done by feel and response from the horn. This bass situation might be helping me see just how badly I rely on it. If unsoldered does what they say it's supposed to do, ie you can hear what you're doing and you don't need to articulate as hard, then it's maybe the thing I look for the most in any trombone.
The 502-I ... Unsoldered rose bell rotax indie, 2G
The 454-E ... Unsoldered yellow bell, axial indie, 2G
I liked both of those a lot, one was just a few minutes at ATW, the other was for a few months in Korea. Not enough to want to play bass, but enough to go, oh yeah, I GET this.
Hmmmm.....
Please keep the thoughts coming guys. It won't help me for this gig coming up, but might help me down the road.
I know it's a minor thing, but I think almost all my playing on tenor is done by feel and response from the horn. This bass situation might be helping me see just how badly I rely on it. If unsoldered does what they say it's supposed to do, ie you can hear what you're doing and you don't need to articulate as hard, then it's maybe the thing I look for the most in any trombone.
- Kbiggs
- Posts: 1768
- Joined: Mar 24, 2018
Generally speaking (this is an over-generalization), with an un-soldered bell you can get away with a bit harder “tongue” to the sound compared to a soldered bell. The soldered bell already has some “point” to the sound “built in,” so to speak—it is less forgiving with articulations. Perhaps a lighter tongue to start notes and a bit more air at the beginning of notes. Maybe…
OTOH, you just might be one of the players who sounds better and prefers unsoldered bells. Get through the gig then unload the horn…
OTOH, you just might be one of the players who sounds better and prefers unsoldered bells. Get through the gig then unload the horn…
- harrisonreed
- Posts: 6479
- Joined: Aug 17, 2018
[quote="Kbiggs"]Generally speaking (this is an over-generalization), with an un-soldered bell you can get away with a bit harder “tongue” to the sound compared to a soldered bell. The soldered bell already has some “point” to the sound “built in,” so to speak—it is less forgiving with articulations. Perhaps a lighter tongue to start notes and a bit more air at the beginning of notes. Maybe…
OTOH, you just might be one of the players who sounds better and prefers unsoldered bells. Get through the gig then unload the horn…[/quote]
Oh, absolutely. Unfortunately it's Uncle Sam's, so the best I can do is turn it in, and then not have a bass. Not the worst place to be, by any means!
OTOH, you just might be one of the players who sounds better and prefers unsoldered bells. Get through the gig then unload the horn…[/quote]
Oh, absolutely. Unfortunately it's Uncle Sam's, so the best I can do is turn it in, and then not have a bass. Not the worst place to be, by any means!
- Thrawn22
- Posts: 1436
- Joined: Sep 06, 2018
The Yamaka is a dog.
Mpc wise use whatever is comfortable and that allows you to cover the part. Spending more time on bass may help you get past some of the crappiness of the horn.
I prefer Conn basses but have tried Kings and Bachs and there were fine. I played an old Yamaha single bass in hs with a 2G and it was fine and a Doug Yeo Yamaha at a local college for a while and it worked well.
Shifting your playing approach could also help.
Mpc wise use whatever is comfortable and that allows you to cover the part. Spending more time on bass may help you get past some of the crappiness of the horn.
I prefer Conn basses but have tried Kings and Bachs and there were fine. I played an old Yamaha single bass in hs with a 2G and it was fine and a Doug Yeo Yamaha at a local college for a while and it worked well.
Shifting your playing approach could also help.
- Kdanielsen
- Posts: 609
- Joined: Jul 28, 2019
I’ve noticed that you and I have similar taste in equipment. I play 396 tenor with a big but shallow mouthpiece. I also play a 502 bass, which you liked.
I’d try a Griego GP mouthpiece if you can find a used one. Its big, but not too big, the throat isn’t huge like a lot of other bass pieces. I like the sound a lot, but be prepared for it to be different from tenor. Snappy is good, but I feel like with bass its really easy to stab notes and over do articulations. Bass will sound really really dead in a practice room too if your mouthpiece isn’t a good match.
I’d try a Griego GP mouthpiece if you can find a used one. Its big, but not too big, the throat isn’t huge like a lot of other bass pieces. I like the sound a lot, but be prepared for it to be different from tenor. Snappy is good, but I feel like with bass its really easy to stab notes and over do articulations. Bass will sound really really dead in a practice room too if your mouthpiece isn’t a good match.
- slidefunk
- Posts: 106
- Joined: Oct 19, 2020
Started playing bass trombone again a little less than a year ago. It's a hard transition at first, but moving to a larger mouthpiece has really helped my consistency and sound on bass. I started off on a Wick 2NAL that I never really liked. Moved to a Marc 1.5G that played wonderfully in and above the staff but still suffered down at C and B. Too stuffy. Now I play a Stork 1.25. Much deeper cup and wider throat than what I had been playing on. Very frustrating at first because it was so much larger than what I play on tenor, but the more time I put into it the easier it started to play and now I wouldn't go back. Such a great sound and much more consistency of attack.
If you are really set on a smaller piece, consider trying a larger leadpipe (if possible.) The Marc 1.5 is a renamed copy of their old George Roberts piece. Its quite shallow with a throat similar to a Wick 4. I was amazed that GR got such a great sound out of such a piece until I read that he played on very open, shortened leadpipes. Food for thought.
If you are really set on a smaller piece, consider trying a larger leadpipe (if possible.) The Marc 1.5 is a renamed copy of their old George Roberts piece. Its quite shallow with a throat similar to a Wick 4. I was amazed that GR got such a great sound out of such a piece until I read that he played on very open, shortened leadpipes. Food for thought.
- GabrielRice
- Posts: 1496
- Joined: Mar 23, 2018
To answer your first question, yes. The B502s are unsoldered, as is the Edwards 1215CF bell - a popular medium-light yellow bell in the Edwards line.
If you're looking to buy yourself a bass that doesn't break the bank, based on your preferences I'd suggest looking for a Getzen 1052. They come in red or yellow brass bells, both unsoldered, the inline rotors work well, and you can manipulate the resistance up front with interchangeable leadpipes.
Note that the 1062 is not just a dependent version of the same thing; the bells on those are soldered rims and they have dual bore slides.
If you're looking to buy yourself a bass that doesn't break the bank, based on your preferences I'd suggest looking for a Getzen 1052. They come in red or yellow brass bells, both unsoldered, the inline rotors work well, and you can manipulate the resistance up front with interchangeable leadpipes.
Note that the 1062 is not just a dependent version of the same thing; the bells on those are soldered rims and they have dual bore slides.
- GabrielRice
- Posts: 1496
- Joined: Mar 23, 2018
And Aidan is 100% right about the Yamaha 830. Every single one I've played has been different from every other one. Some I've liked a lot, some I've hated, and some have been meh.
- harrisonreed
- Posts: 6479
- Joined: Aug 17, 2018
[quote="GabrielRice"]And Aidan is 100% right about the Yamaha 830. Every single one I've played has been different from every other one. Some I've liked a lot, some I've hated, and some have been meh.[/quote]
This is crazy! Thanks!
This is crazy! Thanks!
- blast
- Posts: 671
- Joined: Mar 22, 2018
I'll concur that Yamaha's high end basses are very inconsistent. Also, they were developed using large mouthpieces and work best with larger pieces.
Old Conn Elkhart basses had unsoldered rims, at least in the 1950s and 1960s whilst the modern examples are soldered. That said, all the recent 62H examples I have played were excellent horns...just a little different from Elkies.
Old Conn Elkhart basses had unsoldered rims, at least in the 1950s and 1960s whilst the modern examples are soldered. That said, all the recent 62H examples I have played were excellent horns...just a little different from Elkies.
- WGWTR180
- Posts: 2152
- Joined: Sep 04, 2019
Here's a question and I'm not being a jerk. Are you a bass trombonist? I mean do you play bass trombone enough to be considered a bass trombonist? Because, if not, any instrument won't help much depending on the big band part. But I will echo what many have said about the YBL 830. I've owned and/or tried every Yamaha bass trombone. For me there's zero core in the sound compared(especially the 830) to what I play therefore making it impossible to hear myself no matter how loudly I'm playing.
- sirisobhakya
- Posts: 445
- Joined: Jun 11, 2018
[quote="WGWTR180"]I've owned and/or tried every Yamaha bass trombone. For me there's zero core in the sound compared(especially the 830) to what I play therefore making it impossible to hear myself no matter how loudly I'm playing.[/quote]
Is it that severe? My main bass is a 830, and although I have tried only a few basses in my life (not so many horns to try in my country), I have found some horns that are more “hollow” than mine. I have tried 90s Bach 50B3L, 80s Bach 50B, brand new Bach 50AF3, Eastman 848, Yamaha YBL-612, and YBL-421G. The 50AF3 and the Eastman 848 are markedly more hollow than mine.
Granted, the sound I heard is much darker than the sound that is recorded, but for me the horn is not at the level of “zero” core. I can hear myself with ease in the band.
Maybe I got a good one? Or maybe I use a large mouthpiece. I also notice than the 830 is quite dead behind the bell with the supplied 59L mouthpiece, but becomes much more lively with the Doug Yeo mouthpiece. In front of the bell is more complicated to describe, though.
Is it that severe? My main bass is a 830, and although I have tried only a few basses in my life (not so many horns to try in my country), I have found some horns that are more “hollow” than mine. I have tried 90s Bach 50B3L, 80s Bach 50B, brand new Bach 50AF3, Eastman 848, Yamaha YBL-612, and YBL-421G. The 50AF3 and the Eastman 848 are markedly more hollow than mine.
Granted, the sound I heard is much darker than the sound that is recorded, but for me the horn is not at the level of “zero” core. I can hear myself with ease in the band.
Maybe I got a good one? Or maybe I use a large mouthpiece. I also notice than the 830 is quite dead behind the bell with the supplied 59L mouthpiece, but becomes much more lively with the Doug Yeo mouthpiece. In front of the bell is more complicated to describe, though.
- MTbassbone
- Posts: 558
- Joined: Apr 21, 2018
I have only tried one Yamaha 830, but it was a nice bass in my opinion. I also liked the 620G. Maybe I tried a few decent ones. I am currently struggling with horns at the moment. I went from an Edwards indy axial bass, to an Edwards dependent axial bass, to an Edwards AR valve setup. The AR setup is not very comfortable ergonomically, and the blow is weird. What I want is a lighter (physical weight) bass with a more tromboney sound. I was thinking the 830, 620G, or Conn 62HI were my next reasonable options. I don't need an orchestral cannon. I would like more brilliance in my sound and a little less low end. I already play small/medium sized mouthpieces and I am not getting what I want yet. I am surprised to read other trombonists thoughts on the 830.
- Elow
- Posts: 1924
- Joined: Mar 02, 2020
I have a prototype 622g bell with mounts to fit with my current set up and it’s got the most core out of all my bells. I think the 622 is a little different than most other yamaha basses though
- Burgerbob
- Posts: 6327
- Joined: Apr 23, 2018
[quote="MTbassbone"]I would like more brilliance in my sound and a little less low end.[/quote]
Edwards are very large in the tuning slide/bell stem, which is much of how they sound and play. I'd recommend almost any other line of bass trombones if you're looking for a different sound.
Edwards are very large in the tuning slide/bell stem, which is much of how they sound and play. I'd recommend almost any other line of bass trombones if you're looking for a different sound.
- Crazy4Tbone86
- Posts: 1654
- Joined: Jan 14, 2020
I think the "X" factor in Yamaha basses are the leadpipes. I have not pulled the leadpipe out of an 830 yet, so I don't know what the dimensions are. I have pulled quite a few leadpipes from several other models, going all the way back to the 1970s 321 models. For most of the Yamaha bass leadpipes over the last 50 years, the taper going out from the venturi (smallest diameter) has been slower (very gradual) and the overall leadpipes have been longer.
For some people, this type of leadpipe works very well. For others, it is a bust. I have never been able to get a good sound or a clean articulation on any Yamaha bass with the original leadpipe.....they play a bit "wooofy" for me. When I convert the horns to a removable leadpipe and use one of my favorite .562 pipes, almost all of the Yammy basses work much better for me.
As stated by others, their are inconsistencies with the Yamahas. Even though they try their best to make them consistent, it is absolutely impossible. If the manufacturing process includes ANY hand-hammering in the formation of the bell (Yamaha does use this process), it is mathematically impossible for the bells to be exactly the same. I have seen the same inconsistencies in the .547-bore 882 series as well.....some are fantastic, others don't work that well for me. Please note the hand hammering in this Yamaha video at 2:47 - 3:07.
<YOUTUBE id="Jcstdl55lj8">https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Jcstdl55lj8</YOUTUBE>
For some people, this type of leadpipe works very well. For others, it is a bust. I have never been able to get a good sound or a clean articulation on any Yamaha bass with the original leadpipe.....they play a bit "wooofy" for me. When I convert the horns to a removable leadpipe and use one of my favorite .562 pipes, almost all of the Yammy basses work much better for me.
As stated by others, their are inconsistencies with the Yamahas. Even though they try their best to make them consistent, it is absolutely impossible. If the manufacturing process includes ANY hand-hammering in the formation of the bell (Yamaha does use this process), it is mathematically impossible for the bells to be exactly the same. I have seen the same inconsistencies in the .547-bore 882 series as well.....some are fantastic, others don't work that well for me. Please note the hand hammering in this Yamaha video at 2:47 - 3:07.
<YOUTUBE id="Jcstdl55lj8">https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Jcstdl55lj8</YOUTUBE>
- harrisonreed
- Posts: 6479
- Joined: Aug 17, 2018
I'm happy I'm not the only one who thinks the 830 is a bit quirky (or just plain bad). Thanks, Chris, for the info about what mouthpiece they designed the horn around. I have been eyeing your Wessex design for a few years now -- is it pretty different from the 830, and is the bell soldered?
Yes, it's OK to call me out on not being a bass trombonist. I'm really not one. However this issue is more basic than that. I've played a few, maybe four, bass trombones long enough to get a feel for them. I always listen for response, feedback, and try to get a feel for the flow of any horn I try. I can pick up a bass and get good, instant response in the low register and some bite, even if I'm not very technically proficient moving around with the valves. This 830, though... Air goes in, hits nothing, and then flows out the bell. It's like I gotta force it at my face, rather than let the horn do it's thing. So far this is the only bass trombone I've had this issue with, and it's very similar to my experience with almost every Bach 42 I've tried.
As for the leadpipe on the Yamaha, it's weird -- the mouthpiece goes in a good distance further than any other leadpipe, even other basses. No idea why they do that but I actually have to pull my tuning slide on the Yamaha which is not something I've ever had to do on any trombone in the last ten years.
Yes, it's OK to call me out on not being a bass trombonist. I'm really not one. However this issue is more basic than that. I've played a few, maybe four, bass trombones long enough to get a feel for them. I always listen for response, feedback, and try to get a feel for the flow of any horn I try. I can pick up a bass and get good, instant response in the low register and some bite, even if I'm not very technically proficient moving around with the valves. This 830, though... Air goes in, hits nothing, and then flows out the bell. It's like I gotta force it at my face, rather than let the horn do it's thing. So far this is the only bass trombone I've had this issue with, and it's very similar to my experience with almost every Bach 42 I've tried.
As for the leadpipe on the Yamaha, it's weird -- the mouthpiece goes in a good distance further than any other leadpipe, even other basses. No idea why they do that but I actually have to pull my tuning slide on the Yamaha which is not something I've ever had to do on any trombone in the last ten years.
- harrisonreed
- Posts: 6479
- Joined: Aug 17, 2018
[quote="Crazy4Tbone86"]
As stated by others, their are inconsistencies with the Yamahas. Even though they try their best to make them consistent, it is absolutely impossible. If the manufacturing process includes ANY hand-hammering in the formation of the bell (Yamaha does use this process), it is mathematically impossible for the bells to be exactly the same. I have seen the same inconsistencies in the .547-bore 882 series as well.....some are fantastic, others don't work that well for me. Please note the hand hammering in this Yamaha video at 2:47 - 3:07.
<YOUTUBE id="Jcstdl55lj8">https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Jcstdl55lj8</YOUTUBE>[/quote]
At 2:24 the "legend" is born! Oh man, I've played it. Very different valve, indeed.
As stated by others, their are inconsistencies with the Yamahas. Even though they try their best to make them consistent, it is absolutely impossible. If the manufacturing process includes ANY hand-hammering in the formation of the bell (Yamaha does use this process), it is mathematically impossible for the bells to be exactly the same. I have seen the same inconsistencies in the .547-bore 882 series as well.....some are fantastic, others don't work that well for me. Please note the hand hammering in this Yamaha video at 2:47 - 3:07.
<YOUTUBE id="Jcstdl55lj8">https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Jcstdl55lj8</YOUTUBE>[/quote]
At 2:24 the "legend" is born! Oh man, I've played it. Very different valve, indeed.
- Burgerbob
- Posts: 6327
- Joined: Apr 23, 2018
[quote="harrisonreed"]and is the bell soldered?[/quote]
Again, I think it needs to be said... the bell soldering is a really tiny part of how a bass trombone is going to play and respond, IMO, compared to all the other things that go into it. I don't think you'll have a successful time looking for a horn based only on this requirement.
Again, I think it needs to be said... the bell soldering is a really tiny part of how a bass trombone is going to play and respond, IMO, compared to all the other things that go into it. I don't think you'll have a successful time looking for a horn based only on this requirement.
- harrisonreed
- Posts: 6479
- Joined: Aug 17, 2018
[quote="Burgerbob"]<QUOTE author="harrisonreed" post_id="161935" time="1636324378" user_id="3642">
and is the bell soldered?[/quote]
Again, I think it needs to be said... the bell soldering is a really tiny part of how a bass trombone is going to play and respond, IMO, compared to all the other things that go into it. I don't think you'll have a successful time looking for a horn based only on this requirement.
</QUOTE>
Aiden, Aiden, Aiden, you've owned and frankensteined more basses than I've drank sodas in my life :biggrin: . You are way more of an equipment obsessor than I am. I don't buy anything based on specs. I'm not buying a bass trombone any time soon. I'm just curious about these differences, is all. If anyone would be on my side, it should be you! It makes such a huge difference in tenor world. Not so in bass world?
But I'm curious about the Wessex. It's not on the website. It's a cheap but rumored to be good bass that I'd probably buy sight unseen to use on multi track projects. I bet I'd like it more than this Yammy
and is the bell soldered?[/quote]
Again, I think it needs to be said... the bell soldering is a really tiny part of how a bass trombone is going to play and respond, IMO, compared to all the other things that go into it. I don't think you'll have a successful time looking for a horn based only on this requirement.
</QUOTE>
Aiden, Aiden, Aiden, you've owned and frankensteined more basses than I've drank sodas in my life :biggrin: . You are way more of an equipment obsessor than I am. I don't buy anything based on specs. I'm not buying a bass trombone any time soon. I'm just curious about these differences, is all. If anyone would be on my side, it should be you! It makes such a huge difference in tenor world. Not so in bass world?
But I'm curious about the Wessex. It's not on the website. It's a cheap but rumored to be good bass that I'd probably buy sight unseen to use on multi track projects. I bet I'd like it more than this Yammy
- Burgerbob
- Posts: 6327
- Joined: Apr 23, 2018
[quote="harrisonreed"]
Aiden, Aiden, Aiden, you've owned and frankensteined more basses than I've drank sodas in my life :biggrin: . You are way more of an equipment obsessor than I am. I don't buy anything based on specs. I'm not buying a bass trombone any time soon.
But I'm curious about the Wessex. It's not on the website. It's a cheap but rumored to be good bass that I'd probably buy sight unseen to use on multi track projects. I bet I'd like it more than this Yammy[/quote]
I have! It's fun.
I'm just referring to this unsoldered part. The farther you get away from the face, the less difference it makes. Don't count something out because the bell is soldered.
Aiden, Aiden, Aiden, you've owned and frankensteined more basses than I've drank sodas in my life :biggrin: . You are way more of an equipment obsessor than I am. I don't buy anything based on specs. I'm not buying a bass trombone any time soon.
But I'm curious about the Wessex. It's not on the website. It's a cheap but rumored to be good bass that I'd probably buy sight unseen to use on multi track projects. I bet I'd like it more than this Yammy[/quote]
I have! It's fun.
I'm just referring to this unsoldered part. The farther you get away from the face, the less difference it makes. Don't count something out because the bell is soldered.
- harrisonreed
- Posts: 6479
- Joined: Aug 17, 2018
[quote="Burgerbob"]<QUOTE author="harrisonreed" post_id="161938" time="1636325519" user_id="3642">
Aiden, Aiden, Aiden, you've owned and frankensteined more basses than I've drank sodas in my life :biggrin: . You are way more of an equipment obsessor than I am. I don't buy anything based on specs. I'm not buying a bass trombone any time soon.
But I'm curious about the Wessex. It's not on the website. It's a cheap but rumored to be good bass that I'd probably buy sight unseen to use on multi track projects. I bet I'd like it more than this Yammy[/quote]
I have! It's fun.
I'm just referring to this unsoldered part. The farther you get away from the face, the less difference it makes. Don't count something out because the bell is soldered.
</QUOTE>
I edited my post above to say, yes, if anyone would be on my side here it would be you! Don't shoot my dreams :biggrin:
In tenor world I've all but given up on soldered bells for large bores. It makes a huge difference to me there. Of course it's not the whole story, but I always start there. Here I didn't have a choice. And I hate it.
Aiden, Aiden, Aiden, you've owned and frankensteined more basses than I've drank sodas in my life :biggrin: . You are way more of an equipment obsessor than I am. I don't buy anything based on specs. I'm not buying a bass trombone any time soon.
But I'm curious about the Wessex. It's not on the website. It's a cheap but rumored to be good bass that I'd probably buy sight unseen to use on multi track projects. I bet I'd like it more than this Yammy[/quote]
I have! It's fun.
I'm just referring to this unsoldered part. The farther you get away from the face, the less difference it makes. Don't count something out because the bell is soldered.
</QUOTE>
I edited my post above to say, yes, if anyone would be on my side here it would be you! Don't shoot my dreams :biggrin:
In tenor world I've all but given up on soldered bells for large bores. It makes a huge difference to me there. Of course it's not the whole story, but I always start there. Here I didn't have a choice. And I hate it.
- harrisonreed
- Posts: 6479
- Joined: Aug 17, 2018
Also, thanks. Just got a shoutout from someone in a PM about using tape to change the gap in the leadpipe. Going to try that too.
- harrisonreed
- Posts: 6479
- Joined: Aug 17, 2018
Annnnnnd taping the mouthpiece was a significant improvement. Taped it so that it went in 1" instead of the 1.3" it usually does. Not perfect yet, but I'll take any improvement.
- WGWTR180
- Posts: 2152
- Joined: Sep 04, 2019
[quote="sirisobhakya"]<QUOTE author="WGWTR180" post_id="161910" time="1636290359" user_id="7573">
I've owned and/or tried every Yamaha bass trombone. For me there's zero core in the sound compared(especially the 830) to what I play therefore making it impossible to hear myself no matter how loudly I'm playing.[/quote]
Is it that severe? My main bass is a 830, and although I have tried only a few basses in my life (not so many horns to try in my country), I have found some horns that are more “hollow” than mine. I have tried 90s Bach 50B3L, 80s Bach 50B, brand new Bach 50AF3, Eastman 848, Yamaha YBL-612, and YBL-421G. The 50AF3 and the Eastman 848 are markedly more hollow than mine.
Granted, the sound I heard is much darker than the sound that is recorded, but for me the horn is not at the level of “zero” core. I can hear myself with ease in the band.
Maybe I got a good one? Or maybe I use a large mouthpiece. I also notice than the 830 is quite dead behind the bell with the supplied 59L mouthpiece, but becomes much more lively with the Doug Yeo mouthpiece. In front of the bell is more complicated to describe, though.
</QUOTE>
I think it depends on perspective. For me, yes, it was that severe. But I also agree with you that the 59L that comes with the instrument is not a good match. My trusty MV 1 and 1/2 works in almost every instrument I've ever tried but consistently not with Yamaha basses. I still think the best of the Yamahas is the YBL 613H. Heavier than some, yes? But I was able to achieve a more desirable sound on that version.
I've owned and/or tried every Yamaha bass trombone. For me there's zero core in the sound compared(especially the 830) to what I play therefore making it impossible to hear myself no matter how loudly I'm playing.[/quote]
Is it that severe? My main bass is a 830, and although I have tried only a few basses in my life (not so many horns to try in my country), I have found some horns that are more “hollow” than mine. I have tried 90s Bach 50B3L, 80s Bach 50B, brand new Bach 50AF3, Eastman 848, Yamaha YBL-612, and YBL-421G. The 50AF3 and the Eastman 848 are markedly more hollow than mine.
Granted, the sound I heard is much darker than the sound that is recorded, but for me the horn is not at the level of “zero” core. I can hear myself with ease in the band.
Maybe I got a good one? Or maybe I use a large mouthpiece. I also notice than the 830 is quite dead behind the bell with the supplied 59L mouthpiece, but becomes much more lively with the Doug Yeo mouthpiece. In front of the bell is more complicated to describe, though.
</QUOTE>
I think it depends on perspective. For me, yes, it was that severe. But I also agree with you that the 59L that comes with the instrument is not a good match. My trusty MV 1 and 1/2 works in almost every instrument I've ever tried but consistently not with Yamaha basses. I still think the best of the Yamahas is the YBL 613H. Heavier than some, yes? But I was able to achieve a more desirable sound on that version.
- sirisobhakya
- Posts: 445
- Joined: Jun 11, 2018
[quote="WGWTR180"]<QUOTE author="sirisobhakya" post_id="161919" time="1636302058" user_id="3387">
Is it that severe? My main bass is a 830, and although I have tried only a few basses in my life (not so many horns to try in my country), I have found some horns that are more “hollow” than mine. I have tried 90s Bach 50B3L, 80s Bach 50B, brand new Bach 50AF3, Eastman 848, Yamaha YBL-612, and YBL-421G. The 50AF3 and the Eastman 848 are markedly more hollow than mine.
Granted, the sound I heard is much darker than the sound that is recorded, but for me the horn is not at the level of “zero” core. I can hear myself with ease in the band.
Maybe I got a good one? Or maybe I use a large mouthpiece. I also notice than the 830 is quite dead behind the bell with the supplied 59L mouthpiece, but becomes much more lively with the Doug Yeo mouthpiece. In front of the bell is more complicated to describe, though.[/quote]
I think it depends on perspective. For me, yes, it was that severe. But I also agree with you that the 59L that comes with the instrument is not a good match. My trusty MV 1 and 1/2 works in almost every instrument I've ever tried but consistently not with Yamaha basses. I still think the best of the Yamahas is the YBL 613H. Heavier than some, yes? But I was able to achieve a more desirable sound on that version.
</QUOTE>
Can it be because the gold brass bell? I think gold brass bell gives more feedback to the player than yellow brass one, maybe at the expense of some projection.
Is it that severe? My main bass is a 830, and although I have tried only a few basses in my life (not so many horns to try in my country), I have found some horns that are more “hollow” than mine. I have tried 90s Bach 50B3L, 80s Bach 50B, brand new Bach 50AF3, Eastman 848, Yamaha YBL-612, and YBL-421G. The 50AF3 and the Eastman 848 are markedly more hollow than mine.
Granted, the sound I heard is much darker than the sound that is recorded, but for me the horn is not at the level of “zero” core. I can hear myself with ease in the band.
Maybe I got a good one? Or maybe I use a large mouthpiece. I also notice than the 830 is quite dead behind the bell with the supplied 59L mouthpiece, but becomes much more lively with the Doug Yeo mouthpiece. In front of the bell is more complicated to describe, though.[/quote]
I think it depends on perspective. For me, yes, it was that severe. But I also agree with you that the 59L that comes with the instrument is not a good match. My trusty MV 1 and 1/2 works in almost every instrument I've ever tried but consistently not with Yamaha basses. I still think the best of the Yamahas is the YBL 613H. Heavier than some, yes? But I was able to achieve a more desirable sound on that version.
</QUOTE>
Can it be because the gold brass bell? I think gold brass bell gives more feedback to the player than yellow brass one, maybe at the expense of some projection.
- elmsandr
- Posts: 1373
- Joined: Mar 23, 2018
[quote="Burgerbob"]...
I'm just referring to this unsoldered part. The farther you get away from the face, the less difference it makes. Don't count something out because the bell is soldered.[/quote]
Going off on a tangent that is oddly the thread title... I agree with this a little, but disagree completely with the conclusion. The sound might be very minorly different, and the feedback when playing solo may be very similar... but I can't do unsoldered in a group. I just feel like I'm working way too hard. I tried it for about 5-10 years and it just drove me nuts. Recordings sounded great, but I just couldn't figure out what I was doing and nothing felt right.
If I am ever going in to get fitted for a modular horn again, I intend to tell whoever is guiding the process to tell me nothing about the parts I am playing, let's walk through the process and find where the path leads; but that I will not be leaving with an unsoldered bell. My favorite Edwards bell was a nice 1119CF and a similar thing in one lighter gage (forget the number). Great bells. Great for me when I'm playing by myself. Just can't really figure them out when I had to play with other people. Still sounded great in recordings, too... but I just couldn't hear it while playing it. For me it is entirely a feedback thing here, not necessarily a 'how they actually play and respond' thing.
Cheers,
Andy
I'm just referring to this unsoldered part. The farther you get away from the face, the less difference it makes. Don't count something out because the bell is soldered.[/quote]
Going off on a tangent that is oddly the thread title... I agree with this a little, but disagree completely with the conclusion. The sound might be very minorly different, and the feedback when playing solo may be very similar... but I can't do unsoldered in a group. I just feel like I'm working way too hard. I tried it for about 5-10 years and it just drove me nuts. Recordings sounded great, but I just couldn't figure out what I was doing and nothing felt right.
If I am ever going in to get fitted for a modular horn again, I intend to tell whoever is guiding the process to tell me nothing about the parts I am playing, let's walk through the process and find where the path leads; but that I will not be leaving with an unsoldered bell. My favorite Edwards bell was a nice 1119CF and a similar thing in one lighter gage (forget the number). Great bells. Great for me when I'm playing by myself. Just can't really figure them out when I had to play with other people. Still sounded great in recordings, too... but I just couldn't hear it while playing it. For me it is entirely a feedback thing here, not necessarily a 'how they actually play and respond' thing.
Cheers,
Andy
- WGWTR180
- Posts: 2152
- Joined: Sep 04, 2019
[quote="sirisobhakya"]<QUOTE author="WGWTR180" post_id="161974" time="1636375504" user_id="7573">
I think it depends on perspective. For me, yes, it was that severe. But I also agree with you that the 59L that comes with the instrument is not a good match. My trusty MV 1 and 1/2 works in almost every instrument I've ever tried but consistently not with Yamaha basses. I still think the best of the Yamahas is the YBL 613H. Heavier than some, yes? But I was able to achieve a more desirable sound on that version.[/quote]
Can it be because the gold brass bell? I think gold brass bell gives more feedback to the player than yellow brass one, maybe at the expense of some projection.
</QUOTE>
Well maybe but the 830 is not a 613H with a yellow brass bell exactly. Plus I have no issues projecting with gold or red brass flares. :)
I think it depends on perspective. For me, yes, it was that severe. But I also agree with you that the 59L that comes with the instrument is not a good match. My trusty MV 1 and 1/2 works in almost every instrument I've ever tried but consistently not with Yamaha basses. I still think the best of the Yamahas is the YBL 613H. Heavier than some, yes? But I was able to achieve a more desirable sound on that version.[/quote]
Can it be because the gold brass bell? I think gold brass bell gives more feedback to the player than yellow brass one, maybe at the expense of some projection.
</QUOTE>
Well maybe but the 830 is not a 613H with a yellow brass bell exactly. Plus I have no issues projecting with gold or red brass flares. :)
- tbonesullivan
- Posts: 1959
- Joined: Jul 02, 2019
[quote="WGWTR180"]Well maybe but the 830 is not a 613H with a yellow brass bell exactly. Plus I have no issues projecting with gold or red brass flares. :)[/quote] Not exactly, but the 830 comes directly off the 613 - 613H lineage. The 613H and 830 both use the D2530700 M'PIPE ASS'Y YBL813UG, which has a somewhat deeper insertion depth (by like 4-5mm) than my YBL-612.
I have only had the 613H for a little while, but I haven't noticed a lack of feedback from the horn. Sure it doesn't get the same feedback as the 612, with the unsoldered 10 inch red brass bell, but I can tell what I sound like. Maybe the silver plating and not lacquer helps with that?
I was considering an 830 for a while, but my main reservation is that I want a G-valve, which I'd have to modify the YBL-830 to make happen.
Both work well for me with my Faxx 1 1/2G, which I use mainly to keep my volume in check compared to the larger MPCs I use, which is currently a Ferguson / Minnick JR.
I have only had the 613H for a little while, but I haven't noticed a lack of feedback from the horn. Sure it doesn't get the same feedback as the 612, with the unsoldered 10 inch red brass bell, but I can tell what I sound like. Maybe the silver plating and not lacquer helps with that?
I was considering an 830 for a while, but my main reservation is that I want a G-valve, which I'd have to modify the YBL-830 to make happen.
Both work well for me with my Faxx 1 1/2G, which I use mainly to keep my volume in check compared to the larger MPCs I use, which is currently a Ferguson / Minnick JR.
- harrisonreed
- Posts: 6479
- Joined: Aug 17, 2018
I'm also learning that duct tape / electric tape can be used to solve almost any problem. Oh man you guys would shoot me if you saw this. The low C's speak now pretty easily...
- SimmonsTrombone
- Posts: 174
- Joined: Jul 24, 2018
Sam Burtis uses Teflon plumbers tape.
- LeTromboniste
- Posts: 1634
- Joined: Apr 11, 2018
[quote="SimmonsTrombone"]Sam Burtis uses Teflon plumbers tape.[/quote]
Yes! You will never see horn players who play historical classical-romantic natrural horns rehearse without also seeing a couple rolls of teflon tape laying around somewhere. Works wonders for matching mouthpieces or crooks that don't quite fit the receiver correctly.
Yes! You will never see horn players who play historical classical-romantic natrural horns rehearse without also seeing a couple rolls of teflon tape laying around somewhere. Works wonders for matching mouthpieces or crooks that don't quite fit the receiver correctly.
- harrisonreed
- Posts: 6479
- Joined: Aug 17, 2018
Yes that is what I used on my mouthpiece. The electrical tape was used elsewhere
- harrisonreed
- Posts: 6479
- Joined: Aug 17, 2018
Well the gig went great! Thank you all for the suggestions.
- afugate
- Posts: 671
- Joined: Mar 23, 2018
[quote="harrisonreed"]Well the gig went great! Thank you all for the suggestions.[/quote]
For clarification, was it the mouthpiece gap that made the difference?
--Andy in OKC
For clarification, was it the mouthpiece gap that made the difference?
--Andy in OKC
- harrisonreed
- Posts: 6479
- Joined: Aug 17, 2018
[quote="afugate"]<QUOTE author="harrisonreed" post_id="162264" time="1636632384" user_id="3642">
Well the gig went great! Thank you all for the suggestions.[/quote]
For clarification, was it the mouthpiece gap that made the difference?
--Andy in OKC
</QUOTE>
I'd say the mouthpiece gap was 25%. I'm somewhat embarrassed to say I electrical taped kitchen drawer non-slip mesh around the bell near the brace, and also around where the flare would be attached if it has been a two piece bell, as tight as I could. It certainly got snappier and more responsive, especially in the mid register, but where the double trigger notes would not speak before, now they do.
The horn is not good -- you try to blow a low C in 3rd and the slide actually starts getting blown towards fourth from the back pressure even without making a sound. The bell tape helped it speak, at least. I can post a pic if you all want a good laugh.
Well the gig went great! Thank you all for the suggestions.[/quote]
For clarification, was it the mouthpiece gap that made the difference?
--Andy in OKC
</QUOTE>
I'd say the mouthpiece gap was 25%. I'm somewhat embarrassed to say I electrical taped kitchen drawer non-slip mesh around the bell near the brace, and also around where the flare would be attached if it has been a two piece bell, as tight as I could. It certainly got snappier and more responsive, especially in the mid register, but where the double trigger notes would not speak before, now they do.
The horn is not good -- you try to blow a low C in 3rd and the slide actually starts getting blown towards fourth from the back pressure even without making a sound. The bell tape helped it speak, at least. I can post a pic if you all want a good laugh.
- ithinknot
- Posts: 1339
- Joined: Jul 24, 2020
[quote="harrisonreed"]The horn is not good -- you try to blow a low C in 3rd and the slide actually starts getting blown towards fourth from the back pressure even without making a sound[/quote]
I'm sure you did --- but did you check the valve alignment?
I don't doubt that the horn might have four legs and a predilection for barking, but I'm surprised the double valve notes are that bad without something basic having gone wrong.
I'm sure you did --- but did you check the valve alignment?
I don't doubt that the horn might have four legs and a predilection for barking, but I'm surprised the double valve notes are that bad without something basic having gone wrong.
- harrisonreed
- Posts: 6479
- Joined: Aug 17, 2018
[quote="ithinknot"]<QUOTE author="harrisonreed" post_id="162272" time="1636637177" user_id="3642">
The horn is not good -- you try to blow a low C in 3rd and the slide actually starts getting blown towards fourth from the back pressure even without making a sound[/quote]
I'm sure you did --- but did you check the valve alignment?
I don't doubt that the horn might have four legs and a predilection for barking, but I'm surprised the double valve notes are that bad without something basic having gone wrong.
</QUOTE>
Yeah, the valves are aligned. Without engaging valves the blow isn't bad. Engaging the valves, they rotate the correct amount and the witness marks are aligned. F attachment isn't bad. 2nd valve is bad. By itself and with F. Can't find an actual fault though.
It does play now, and notes speak, so it's not like there is a blockage. It's just ... I don't know. I've played 42s like this, too.
The horn is not good -- you try to blow a low C in 3rd and the slide actually starts getting blown towards fourth from the back pressure even without making a sound[/quote]
I'm sure you did --- but did you check the valve alignment?
I don't doubt that the horn might have four legs and a predilection for barking, but I'm surprised the double valve notes are that bad without something basic having gone wrong.
</QUOTE>
Yeah, the valves are aligned. Without engaging valves the blow isn't bad. Engaging the valves, they rotate the correct amount and the witness marks are aligned. F attachment isn't bad. 2nd valve is bad. By itself and with F. Can't find an actual fault though.
It does play now, and notes speak, so it's not like there is a blockage. It's just ... I don't know. I've played 42s like this, too.
- ithinknot
- Posts: 1339
- Joined: Jul 24, 2020
[quote="harrisonreed"]<QUOTE author="ithinknot" post_id="162273" time="1636637852" user_id="9763">
I'm sure you did --- but did you check the valve alignment?
I don't doubt that the horn might have four legs and a predilection for barking, but I'm surprised the double valve notes are that bad without something basic having gone wrong.[/quote]
Yeah, the valves are aligned. Without engaging valves the blow isn't bad. Engaging the valves, they rotate the correct amount and the witness marks are aligned. F attachment isn't bad. 2nd valve is bad. By itself and with F. Can't find an actual fault though.
It does play now, and notes speak, so it's not like there is a blockage. It's just ... I don't know. I've played 42s like this, too.
</QUOTE>
Fair enough.
Any chance your employer might have access to a 62HI somewhere? Not too much of a handful for the primarily tenor player, soldered bell <span class="emoji" title=":wink:">😉</span> and/but definitely feels like it comes from the same universe as a modern 88H, and I know you can tolerate those.
I'm sure you did --- but did you check the valve alignment?
I don't doubt that the horn might have four legs and a predilection for barking, but I'm surprised the double valve notes are that bad without something basic having gone wrong.[/quote]
Yeah, the valves are aligned. Without engaging valves the blow isn't bad. Engaging the valves, they rotate the correct amount and the witness marks are aligned. F attachment isn't bad. 2nd valve is bad. By itself and with F. Can't find an actual fault though.
It does play now, and notes speak, so it's not like there is a blockage. It's just ... I don't know. I've played 42s like this, too.
</QUOTE>
Fair enough.
Any chance your employer might have access to a 62HI somewhere? Not too much of a handful for the primarily tenor player, soldered bell <span class="emoji" title=":wink:">😉</span> and/but definitely feels like it comes from the same universe as a modern 88H, and I know you can tolerate those.
- bassclef
- Posts: 337
- Joined: Mar 23, 2018
[quote="harrisonreed"]The horn is not good -- <I>you try to blow a low C in 3rd</I> and the slide actually starts getting blown towards fourth from the back pressure even without making a sound. The bell tape helped it speak, at least. I can post a pic if you all want a good laugh.[/quote]
Serious question: why are you trying to play low C in 3rd?
In my mind, all of your descriptions about the sound and feel of that note are to be expected if you're trying to play low C 1-1.5 positions away from where you generally should be on Bb/F/D tuning. Are your attachment tuning slides pulled way out or something?
Serious question: why are you trying to play low C in 3rd?
In my mind, all of your descriptions about the sound and feel of that note are to be expected if you're trying to play low C 1-1.5 positions away from where you generally should be on Bb/F/D tuning. Are your attachment tuning slides pulled way out or something?
- hornbuilder
- Posts: 1384
- Joined: May 02, 2018
With an instrument pitched in D, that low C is played in 3rd position. It roughly equates to 4th position of a Bb trombone.
- Burgerbob
- Posts: 6327
- Joined: Apr 23, 2018
[quote="hornbuilder"]With an instrument pitched in D, that low C is played in 3rd position. It roughly equates to 4th position of a Bb trombone.[/quote]
I think most of us would call it 4th (the Bb position), but it's worth checking!
I think most of us would call it 4th (the Bb position), but it's worth checking!
- tbonesullivan
- Posts: 1959
- Joined: Jul 02, 2019
[quote="harrisonreed"]The horn is not good -- you try to blow a low C in 3rd and the slide actually starts getting blown towards fourth from the back pressure even without making a sound. The bell tape helped it speak, at least. I can post a pic if you all want a good laugh.[/quote] That's gotta be a weird resonance thing. Can't say I've ever experienced that level of a horn "fighting" me in that range. Neither of my Yamaha basses do that, though the 613H is kinda beat up, so maybe all the resistance got beat out of it :mrgreen:
- hornbuilder
- Posts: 1384
- Joined: May 02, 2018
[quote="Burgerbob"]<QUOTE author="hornbuilder" post_id="162329" time="1636660085" user_id="3205">
With an instrument pitched in D, that low C is played in 3rd position. It roughly equates to 4th position of a Bb trombone.[/quote]
I think most of us would call it 4th (the Bb position), but it's worth checking!
</QUOTE>
It just depends on how pedantic you want to be....
With an instrument pitched in D, that low C is played in 3rd position. It roughly equates to 4th position of a Bb trombone.[/quote]
I think most of us would call it 4th (the Bb position), but it's worth checking!
</QUOTE>
It just depends on how pedantic you want to be....
- harrisonreed
- Posts: 6479
- Joined: Aug 17, 2018
[quote="bassclef"]<QUOTE author="harrisonreed" post_id="162272" time="1636637177" user_id="3642">
The horn is not good -- <I>you try to blow a low C in 3rd</I> and the slide actually starts getting blown towards fourth from the back pressure even without making a sound. The bell tape helped it speak, at least. I can post a pic if you all want a good laugh.[/quote]
Serious question: why are you trying to play low C in 3rd?
In my mind, all of your descriptions about the sound and feel of that note are to be expected if you're trying to play low C 1-1.5 positions away from where you generally should be on Bb/F/D tuning. Are your attachment tuning slides pulled way out or something?
</QUOTE>
Sorry, I was gonna get snarky, but it's a fair question. It's whatever position 2T3 is. Out past the bell, but certainly not in 4th position. I do tend to pull attachment slides out pretty far because I usually play with my tuning slide all the way in. You'll have to go out on a limb and believe that I know how to play in tune without lipping it, and know how to find where notes slot on different trombones. I really do.
The horn is not good -- <I>you try to blow a low C in 3rd</I> and the slide actually starts getting blown towards fourth from the back pressure even without making a sound. The bell tape helped it speak, at least. I can post a pic if you all want a good laugh.[/quote]
Serious question: why are you trying to play low C in 3rd?
In my mind, all of your descriptions about the sound and feel of that note are to be expected if you're trying to play low C 1-1.5 positions away from where you generally should be on Bb/F/D tuning. Are your attachment tuning slides pulled way out or something?
</QUOTE>
Sorry, I was gonna get snarky, but it's a fair question. It's whatever position 2T3 is. Out past the bell, but certainly not in 4th position. I do tend to pull attachment slides out pretty far because I usually play with my tuning slide all the way in. You'll have to go out on a limb and believe that I know how to play in tune without lipping it, and know how to find where notes slot on different trombones. I really do.
- Burgerbob
- Posts: 6327
- Joined: Apr 23, 2018
[quote="harrisonreed"]<QUOTE author="bassclef" post_id="162327" time="1636659599" user_id="114">
Serious question: why are you trying to play low C in 3rd?
In my mind, all of your descriptions about the sound and feel of that note are to be expected if you're trying to play low C 1-1.5 positions away from where you generally should be on Bb/F/D tuning. Are your attachment tuning slides pulled way out or something?[/quote]
Sorry, I was gonna get snarky, but it's a fair question. It's whatever position 2T3 is. Out past the bell, but certainly not in 4th position. I do tend to pull attachment slides out pretty far because I usually play with my tuning slide all the way in.
</QUOTE>
Is your F in tune in first position with the F attachment (in the staff)? D above the staff with both valves?
Serious question: why are you trying to play low C in 3rd?
In my mind, all of your descriptions about the sound and feel of that note are to be expected if you're trying to play low C 1-1.5 positions away from where you generally should be on Bb/F/D tuning. Are your attachment tuning slides pulled way out or something?[/quote]
Sorry, I was gonna get snarky, but it's a fair question. It's whatever position 2T3 is. Out past the bell, but certainly not in 4th position. I do tend to pull attachment slides out pretty far because I usually play with my tuning slide all the way in.
</QUOTE>
Is your F in tune in first position with the F attachment (in the staff)? D above the staff with both valves?
- harrisonreed
- Posts: 6479
- Joined: Aug 17, 2018
F exactly in tune in closed first (on F side). I don't use the other D valve by itself, so I tuned that one long, so that Eb and C are the same position in T3. The valve wasn't the only issue, but nothing speaks well on the second valve, even just glissing around to find where things lay. Besides this, everything already played like a foghorn, even on the open horn, before I started messing with it.
- Burgerbob
- Posts: 6327
- Joined: Apr 23, 2018
[quote="harrisonreed"]F exactly in tune in closed first (on F side). I don't use the other D valve by itself, so I tuned that one long, so that Eb and C are the same position in T3. The valve wasn't the only issue, but nothing speaks well on the second valve, even just glissing around to find where things lay. Besides this, everything already played like a foghorn, even on the open horn, before I started messing with it.[/quote]
That's a choice! It'll probably play better tuned to Gb (shorter is always better).
That's a choice! It'll probably play better tuned to Gb (shorter is always better).
- harrisonreed
- Posts: 6479
- Joined: Aug 17, 2018
[quote="Burgerbob"]<QUOTE author="harrisonreed" post_id="162352" time="1636672486" user_id="3642">
F exactly in tune in closed first (on F side). I don't use the other D valve by itself, so I tuned that one long, so that Eb and C are the same position in T3. The valve wasn't the only issue, but nothing speaks well on the second valve, even just glissing around to find where things lay. Besides this, everything already played like a foghorn, even on the open horn, before I started messing with it.[/quote]
That's a choice! It'll probably play better tuned to Gb (shorter is always better).
</QUOTE>
Not sure if you're implying that I made a weird choice. Shorter on the handslide, you mean?
Yeah. I wasn't going to go crazy diving into different ways to tune the valves for just a few gigs. I figured that knowing where C and B were going to be in tune reliably was good enough, and that was all I used that valve for on the gig.
F exactly in tune in closed first (on F side). I don't use the other D valve by itself, so I tuned that one long, so that Eb and C are the same position in T3. The valve wasn't the only issue, but nothing speaks well on the second valve, even just glissing around to find where things lay. Besides this, everything already played like a foghorn, even on the open horn, before I started messing with it.[/quote]
That's a choice! It'll probably play better tuned to Gb (shorter is always better).
</QUOTE>
Not sure if you're implying that I made a weird choice. Shorter on the handslide, you mean?
Yeah. I wasn't going to go crazy diving into different ways to tune the valves for just a few gigs. I figured that knowing where C and B were going to be in tune reliably was good enough, and that was all I used that valve for on the gig.
- Burgerbob
- Posts: 6327
- Joined: Apr 23, 2018
[quote="harrisonreed"]
Not sure if you're implying that I made a weird choice. Shorter on the handslide, you mean?
Yeah. I wasn't going to go crazy diving into different ways to tune the valves for just a few gigs. I figured that knowing where C and B were going to be in tune reliably was good enough, and that was all I used that valve for on the gig.[/quote]
Less attachment tubing is always better for playability (of course, secondary to the instrument being good... which yours doesn't seem to be). That's why I like to have a nice Gb in first, which puts C in exactly 4th position.
Not sure if you're implying that I made a weird choice. Shorter on the handslide, you mean?
Yeah. I wasn't going to go crazy diving into different ways to tune the valves for just a few gigs. I figured that knowing where C and B were going to be in tune reliably was good enough, and that was all I used that valve for on the gig.[/quote]
Less attachment tubing is always better for playability (of course, secondary to the instrument being good... which yours doesn't seem to be). That's why I like to have a nice Gb in first, which puts C in exactly 4th position.
- bassclef
- Posts: 337
- Joined: Mar 23, 2018
[quote="harrisonreed"]You'll have to go out on a limb and believe that I know how to play in tune without lipping it, and know how to find where notes slot on different trombones. I really do.[/quote]
I wanted to sleep on it before I replied to be sure I was making the right decision.
I'll only say that I've been burned by trusting people with this before...but, okay. I believe you.
I wanted to sleep on it before I replied to be sure I was making the right decision.
I'll only say that I've been burned by trusting people with this before...but, okay. I believe you.
- harrisonreed
- Posts: 6479
- Joined: Aug 17, 2018
[quote="bassclef"]<QUOTE author="harrisonreed" post_id="162350" time="1636672269" user_id="3642">
You'll have to go out on a limb and believe that I know how to play in tune without lipping it, and know how to find where notes slot on different trombones. I really do.[/quote]
I wanted to sleep on it before I replied to be sure I was making the right decision.
I'll only say that I've been burned by trusting people with this before...but, okay. I believe you.
</QUOTE>
8-)
You'll have to go out on a limb and believe that I know how to play in tune without lipping it, and know how to find where notes slot on different trombones. I really do.[/quote]
I wanted to sleep on it before I replied to be sure I was making the right decision.
I'll only say that I've been burned by trusting people with this before...but, okay. I believe you.
</QUOTE>
8-)
- Jimkinkella
- Posts: 286
- Joined: Mar 23, 2018
Always funky and funkier with the 2nd valve kind of points to the 2nd valve assembly.
Not necessarily the degree of rotation, but alignment of the actual port construction, possible burrs or solder joint issues where the knuckle meets the valve body, something like that.
Any chance you have access to an endoscope a tech might have? The kind of thing you might use to check a gun barrel.
Just an idea I hadn’t seen on this thread yet....
Not necessarily the degree of rotation, but alignment of the actual port construction, possible burrs or solder joint issues where the knuckle meets the valve body, something like that.
Any chance you have access to an endoscope a tech might have? The kind of thing you might use to check a gun barrel.
Just an idea I hadn’t seen on this thread yet....