Effect of bore size on high range
- dxhall
- Posts: 156
- Joined: Sep 14, 2018
In a moment of weakness a few weeks ago I purchased a mint Conn Vocabell trombone. It has a .485 bore.
The horn I play every day is a dual bore, .495 x .510. I assumed that it would be easier to hit high notes on the Vocabell because the bore is smaller. Alas, not so for me. When I play a passage with one horn and then immediately play the same passage with the other (with the same mouthpiece), it’s easier to hit high notes with the .495 x .510 horn.
This is not my understanding of the physics of bore size and high notes. What have I misunderstood?
The horn I play every day is a dual bore, .495 x .510. I assumed that it would be easier to hit high notes on the Vocabell because the bore is smaller. Alas, not so for me. When I play a passage with one horn and then immediately play the same passage with the other (with the same mouthpiece), it’s easier to hit high notes with the .495 x .510 horn.
This is not my understanding of the physics of bore size and high notes. What have I misunderstood?
- Burgerbob
- Posts: 6327
- Joined: Apr 23, 2018
I wouldn't say there's any direct correlation with small bore size and easy high register, though there is a broad feeling that it does. This is doubly untrue if you're used to using one instrument and not the other. The smaller horn may be easier, but not if you have hundreds of hours on the larger one.
Go listen to IHOP bands screaming out loud, centered high Gbs on .547s, for example of big horns playing high as balls with no issues.
Go listen to IHOP bands screaming out loud, centered high Gbs on .547s, for example of big horns playing high as balls with no issues.
- Thrawn22
- Posts: 1436
- Joined: Sep 06, 2018
There's a lot of things at play. In the end it's the players abilities that will determine ease of play.
I personally have a little easier time playing higher on a larger bore compared to smaller bore, but then my endurance isn't quite as good. So i need to practice to correct those deficiencies.
Having owned a 44H Vocabell bone, I can say firsthand that while the horn has a small bore that theoretically should allow for ease if higher range, the weight of those horns is on the heavy side making for more resistance.
Imho.
I personally have a little easier time playing higher on a larger bore compared to smaller bore, but then my endurance isn't quite as good. So i need to practice to correct those deficiencies.
Having owned a 44H Vocabell bone, I can say firsthand that while the horn has a small bore that theoretically should allow for ease if higher range, the weight of those horns is on the heavy side making for more resistance.
Imho.
- harrisonreed
- Posts: 6479
- Joined: Aug 17, 2018
Bore size has pretty much zero effect on high range. In my experience it just doesn't work that way. The sound changes, for sure, but not the high range.
It's likely that many of the other factors in that horns design are changing the compression on you, which affects the range.
Now the small mouthpieces that go into small bores do affect the high range. Same small mouthpiece on a very similar small bore -- sameish range.
It's likely that many of the other factors in that horns design are changing the compression on you, which affects the range.
Now the small mouthpieces that go into small bores do affect the high range. Same small mouthpiece on a very similar small bore -- sameish range.
- dxhall
- Posts: 156
- Joined: Sep 14, 2018
Hmm. Blowing with the same amount of effort, it seems that air flowing through the smaller horn must be moving at a higher velocity than the air flowing through the larger horn. If that’s right, the same amount of effort should produce a higher pitch on the smaller horn, no?
I’ve always associated higher velocity air with higher pitches. Pedal tones, for example, feel high volume but low velocity, where high pitches feel the opposite.
I’ve always associated higher velocity air with higher pitches. Pedal tones, for example, feel high volume but low velocity, where high pitches feel the opposite.
- Burgerbob
- Posts: 6327
- Joined: Apr 23, 2018
Air velocity isn't the sole (or even majority?) factor in the pitch produced. There's a lot more nuance to it than that. Otherwise we could just blow super hard and play double Cs, since the air is moving so fast.
- Doug_Elliott
- Posts: 4155
- Joined: Mar 22, 2018
The physics of brass instruments is all about resonance. Air velocity means nothing.
I've always wanted to spend some time on a 44H to see what it's all about.
I've always wanted to spend some time on a 44H to see what it's all about.
- officermayo
- Posts: 654
- Joined: Jun 09, 2021
Can't remember details since this happened around 1965.
My Dad (professional trombonist) came home with a "Kollege of Musical Knowledge" album (audio excerpts from the show). I remember one part where there was a demonstration of different horns in the band. When it got to the bass bone, the guy played WAY up in the stratosphere. Kay Kyser yelled, "I said BASS trombone!" and immediately the guy was WAY down in the gutter. That's always stuck with me whenever bass bones are being discussed.
My Dad (professional trombonist) came home with a "Kollege of Musical Knowledge" album (audio excerpts from the show). I remember one part where there was a demonstration of different horns in the band. When it got to the bass bone, the guy played WAY up in the stratosphere. Kay Kyser yelled, "I said BASS trombone!" and immediately the guy was WAY down in the gutter. That's always stuck with me whenever bass bones are being discussed.
- ithinknot
- Posts: 1339
- Joined: Jul 24, 2020
As others have said, 'not really'. The character of slotting changes, but not necessarily ease.
I had a beautiful 44H and sold it because the slide was just too narrow to get the mpc comfortably centered where I need it to be.
It was a very nice horn, but it tightened up quite significantly above the 8th partial - uniformly, and with decent slots for everything up to G, but a noticeable gear change to be sure. Below that, it's super open and very solid - but that one at least was definitely a chesty, almost baritonal Dixieland horn, not a Dorsey/ballad/high 'n' sweet specialist. Really interesting. Very open gooseneck/TS. Until you get to the high stuff, it blows much bigger than plenty of .500s.
[quote="Burgerbob"]Go listen to IHOP bands screaming out loud, centered high Gbs on .547s, for example of big horns playing high as balls with no issues.[/quote]
Exactly - it just depends how much overall volume you need, and the type of sound you're looking for up there.
On a big tenor or even bass, there's sometimes a sense of the pitch being screamed through the middle of the horn... and maybe not touching the sides. On a Bach 6, it sounds like the whole instrument can lock/efficiently participate in that same F#. But it's not easier per se. (Just like alto not giving you an extra 4th.)
I had a beautiful 44H and sold it because the slide was just too narrow to get the mpc comfortably centered where I need it to be.
It was a very nice horn, but it tightened up quite significantly above the 8th partial - uniformly, and with decent slots for everything up to G, but a noticeable gear change to be sure. Below that, it's super open and very solid - but that one at least was definitely a chesty, almost baritonal Dixieland horn, not a Dorsey/ballad/high 'n' sweet specialist. Really interesting. Very open gooseneck/TS. Until you get to the high stuff, it blows much bigger than plenty of .500s.
[quote="Burgerbob"]Go listen to IHOP bands screaming out loud, centered high Gbs on .547s, for example of big horns playing high as balls with no issues.[/quote]
Exactly - it just depends how much overall volume you need, and the type of sound you're looking for up there.
On a big tenor or even bass, there's sometimes a sense of the pitch being screamed through the middle of the horn... and maybe not touching the sides. On a Bach 6, it sounds like the whole instrument can lock/efficiently participate in that same F#. But it's not easier per se. (Just like alto not giving you an extra 4th.)
- eatanick
- Posts: 35
- Joined: Oct 11, 2018
[quote="officermayo"]Can't remember details since this happened around 1965.
My Dad (professional trombonist) came home with a "Kollege of Musical Knowledge" album (audio excerpts from the show). I remember one part where there was a demonstration of different horns in the band. When it got to the bass bone, the guy played WAY up in the stratosphere. Kay Kyser yelled, "I said BASS trombone!" and immediately the guy was WAY down in the gutter. That's always stuck with me whenever bass bones are being discussed.[/quote]
This sounds a lot like "Prologue (This is an Orchestra!)" from Stan Kenton's album "New Concepts of Artistry in Rhythm". George Roberts is on bass bone (featured at 6:56).
<YOUTUBE id="ubyTA-qzrTE">https://youtu.be/ubyTA-qzrTE</YOUTUBE>
My Dad (professional trombonist) came home with a "Kollege of Musical Knowledge" album (audio excerpts from the show). I remember one part where there was a demonstration of different horns in the band. When it got to the bass bone, the guy played WAY up in the stratosphere. Kay Kyser yelled, "I said BASS trombone!" and immediately the guy was WAY down in the gutter. That's always stuck with me whenever bass bones are being discussed.[/quote]
This sounds a lot like "Prologue (This is an Orchestra!)" from Stan Kenton's album "New Concepts of Artistry in Rhythm". George Roberts is on bass bone (featured at 6:56).
<YOUTUBE id="ubyTA-qzrTE">https://youtu.be/ubyTA-qzrTE</YOUTUBE>
- officermayo
- Posts: 654
- Joined: Jun 09, 2021
[quote="eatanick"]<QUOTE author="officermayo" post_id="162503" time="1636778786" user_id="12380">
Can't remember details since this happened around 1965.
My Dad (professional trombonist) came home with a "Kollege of Musical Knowledge" album (audio excerpts from the show). I remember one part where there was a demonstration of different horns in the band. When it got to the bass bone, the guy played WAY up in the stratosphere. Kay Kyser yelled, "I said BASS trombone!" and immediately the guy was WAY down in the gutter. That's always stuck with me whenever bass bones are being discussed.[/quote]
This sounds a lot like "Prologue (This is an Orchestra!)" from Stan Kenton's album "New Concepts of Artistry in Rhythm". George Roberts is on bass bone (featured at 6:56).
<YOUTUBE id="ubyTA-qzrTE">https://youtu.be/ubyTA-qzrTE</YOUTUBE>
</QUOTE>
You know what?
You're absolutely right about that.
Thanks for fixing what my granddaughter calls "Old Timers Disease".
Can't remember details since this happened around 1965.
My Dad (professional trombonist) came home with a "Kollege of Musical Knowledge" album (audio excerpts from the show). I remember one part where there was a demonstration of different horns in the band. When it got to the bass bone, the guy played WAY up in the stratosphere. Kay Kyser yelled, "I said BASS trombone!" and immediately the guy was WAY down in the gutter. That's always stuck with me whenever bass bones are being discussed.[/quote]
This sounds a lot like "Prologue (This is an Orchestra!)" from Stan Kenton's album "New Concepts of Artistry in Rhythm". George Roberts is on bass bone (featured at 6:56).
<YOUTUBE id="ubyTA-qzrTE">https://youtu.be/ubyTA-qzrTE</YOUTUBE>
</QUOTE>
You know what?
You're absolutely right about that.
Thanks for fixing what my granddaughter calls "Old Timers Disease".
- hyperbolica
- Posts: 3990
- Joined: Mar 23, 2018
I can play as high on my bass as on any small bore, it just doesn't sound as good and it takes more air. Likewise I can play pedal f on a small tenor, same as bass. Bore allows you to use an appropriate amount of air for the intended range, and has an effect on the timbre and articulation.
- Kbiggs
- Posts: 1768
- Joined: Mar 24, 2018
[quote="Burgerbob"]This is doubly untrue if you're used to using one instrument and not the other. The smaller horn may be easier, but not if you have hundreds of hours on the larger one.
[/quote]
[quote="hyperbolica"]I can play as high on my bass as on any small bore, it just doesn't sound as good and it takes more air. Likewise I can play pedal f on a small tenor, same as bass.
[/quote]
Practice and familiarity are, to me, greater factors than bore or bell size. Smaller bores affect the feedback and, when played appropriately, help endurance in the upper register, but only if you’re accustomed to a small bore and you’ve practiced the upper register—a lot.
[/quote]
[quote="hyperbolica"]I can play as high on my bass as on any small bore, it just doesn't sound as good and it takes more air. Likewise I can play pedal f on a small tenor, same as bass.
[/quote]
Practice and familiarity are, to me, greater factors than bore or bell size. Smaller bores affect the feedback and, when played appropriately, help endurance in the upper register, but only if you’re accustomed to a small bore and you’ve practiced the upper register—a lot.
- spencercarran
- Posts: 689
- Joined: Oct 17, 2020
0.485 peashooter old Conn or jumbo 562/578 modern bass, doesn't matter as much as you'd expect for range. Same length of pipe means same frequencies available (at least along the open horn).
- brassmedic
- Posts: 1447
- Joined: Dec 14, 2018
Lots of other factors: leadpipe, neckpipe, bell taper, slide crook. Even the amount of stress in the joints or placement of braces can affect response.
- timothy42b
- Posts: 1812
- Joined: Mar 27, 2018
You might be playing louder on the bigger bore to get the same sound you want, so you wear out faster.
That might be why it can be easier to play high on the alto - because we don't try to play as loud.
That might be why it can be easier to play high on the alto - because we don't try to play as loud.
- harrisonreed
- Posts: 6479
- Joined: Aug 17, 2018
[quote="dxhall"]Hmm. Blowing with the same amount of effort, it seems that air flowing through the smaller horn must be moving at a higher velocity than the air flowing through the larger horn. If that’s right, the same amount of effort should produce a higher pitch on the smaller horn, no?
I’ve always associated higher velocity air with higher pitches. Pedal tones, for example, feel high volume but low velocity, where high pitches feel the opposite.[/quote]
Nope. It just isn't how that works. It's got everything to do with the length of tubing and exciting the air inside the horn.
Alto is easier in the stratosphere because it is shorter, and because the mouthpiece is very shallow.
Bass trombone is more difficult in the upper register because the mouthpiece is deeper, and the rim diameter people can get away with is probably far too large for them to play the full range.
I’ve always associated higher velocity air with higher pitches. Pedal tones, for example, feel high volume but low velocity, where high pitches feel the opposite.[/quote]
Nope. It just isn't how that works. It's got everything to do with the length of tubing and exciting the air inside the horn.
Alto is easier in the stratosphere because it is shorter, and because the mouthpiece is very shallow.
Bass trombone is more difficult in the upper register because the mouthpiece is deeper, and the rim diameter people can get away with is probably far too large for them to play the full range.
- pjanda1
- Posts: 158
- Joined: Aug 29, 2021
While I agree bore size doesn't affect extension much, just hitting the pitch isn't everything. All things being equal (good player, good horn, player very familiar with horn), a smaller trombone will have advantages in terms of projection and endurance. I've heard bass players with great high ranges. But they don't project like a good tenor player. And probably not over and over all night long.
Personally, I'm much more comfortable playing much higher for much longer on a large tenor than a small one. But I've spent (at least) 1000x as many hours playing large tenor. And most of my small tenor time has been on 3rd part, while I've done some very high solo stuff on the orchestral rig.
Finally, while all things trumpet don't perfectly correspond to all things trombone, it is worth noting that many (but far from all!) lead trumpet players--especially the Benge players--use the largest bore trumpets. And returning to the importance of time with the horn, I have a 3X MLP just for fun. I can play higher in absolute pitch on my Edwards 350 or Elkhart 8H.
Paul
Personally, I'm much more comfortable playing much higher for much longer on a large tenor than a small one. But I've spent (at least) 1000x as many hours playing large tenor. And most of my small tenor time has been on 3rd part, while I've done some very high solo stuff on the orchestral rig.
Finally, while all things trumpet don't perfectly correspond to all things trombone, it is worth noting that many (but far from all!) lead trumpet players--especially the Benge players--use the largest bore trumpets. And returning to the importance of time with the horn, I have a 3X MLP just for fun. I can play higher in absolute pitch on my Edwards 350 or Elkhart 8H.
Paul