Cheap Contras Worth It?
- Reidclag
- Posts: 32
- Joined: Nov 12, 2021
Hey Trombone World,
So I've recently got back in the swing of things playing trombone, long story short = played on and off for the past 6-ish years and now I'm finally able to get back playing full time (unfortunately doesn't mean full pay...), and I have a contrabass itch I need to scratch. I used to have an old Miraphone BBb back in college but I eventually sold it because I unfortunately didn't have opportunities to use it and I needed money for other little things like student loans, rent, food, etc. Even though it was difficult to play accurately with the double slide and a single valve wasn't ideal, I still miss having that kind of firepower at my disposal.
Looking around there seems to be many cheap contra options out there, and if my research is correct they're all made in China and have different brand names slapped on them. Three brands I'm thinking of in particular are O'Malley, Dillon, and Wessex. This is what I've found so far regarding each cheap contra option.
O'Malley = Haven't found anything related to the playability or quality of their horns.
Dillon = Seen a few mentions that people own them, but it's still unclear on playability and quality.
Wessex = Seems to be the best option out of the three with some positive reviews.
What experiences do people have with these horns? If I bought one of these contras would I have to take it to a shop to fix my new horn? Are the valve or slide usable? Do they sound like a slide sousaphone?
So I've recently got back in the swing of things playing trombone, long story short = played on and off for the past 6-ish years and now I'm finally able to get back playing full time (unfortunately doesn't mean full pay...), and I have a contrabass itch I need to scratch. I used to have an old Miraphone BBb back in college but I eventually sold it because I unfortunately didn't have opportunities to use it and I needed money for other little things like student loans, rent, food, etc. Even though it was difficult to play accurately with the double slide and a single valve wasn't ideal, I still miss having that kind of firepower at my disposal.
Looking around there seems to be many cheap contra options out there, and if my research is correct they're all made in China and have different brand names slapped on them. Three brands I'm thinking of in particular are O'Malley, Dillon, and Wessex. This is what I've found so far regarding each cheap contra option.
O'Malley = Haven't found anything related to the playability or quality of their horns.
Dillon = Seen a few mentions that people own them, but it's still unclear on playability and quality.
Wessex = Seems to be the best option out of the three with some positive reviews.
What experiences do people have with these horns? If I bought one of these contras would I have to take it to a shop to fix my new horn? Are the valve or slide usable? Do they sound like a slide sousaphone?
- deanmccarty
- Posts: 224
- Joined: May 01, 2018
I have tried the old version Wessex and it was NOT good… the new version Wessex is better… but still not a great instrument… I get what you are thinking… contras are expensive, so I’ll just get one of these Chinese horns to play around on… but, $3K isn’t chump change…
I have been in the market for a contra for a while… I finally decided to drop the change and ordered a Jürgen Voigt through Steve Ferguson at Hornguys. Yes… it’s more than a Wessex… but it will be a fantastic instrument that is built to order. And, it’s less than any of the other quality contra makers out there. If you’re able to afford a quality instrument I recommend not cutting corners.
Just my opinion.
I have been in the market for a contra for a while… I finally decided to drop the change and ordered a Jürgen Voigt through Steve Ferguson at Hornguys. Yes… it’s more than a Wessex… but it will be a fantastic instrument that is built to order. And, it’s less than any of the other quality contra makers out there. If you’re able to afford a quality instrument I recommend not cutting corners.
Just my opinion.
- Burgerbob
- Posts: 6327
- Joined: Apr 23, 2018
There's a huge gulf between the rotor valve Wessex and the next pro instrument, which is probably the Voight. And it's probably worth it if you want a real instrument that makes you want to practice contra.
- Finetales
- Posts: 1482
- Joined: Mar 23, 2018
If you want to get a cheap contra, get the Wessex. It may not be great compared to a $10k+ contra, but it's better than the typical Jin Bao Thein clones (like the Dillon and O'Malley). Plus, it comes with slides for both popular valve tunings so you can decide which one you prefer.
- BGuttman
- Posts: 7368
- Joined: Mar 22, 2018
This reminds me of a colleague who bought a cheap Chinese contrabassoon (it was still quite expensive, though). He then had to spend a small fortune on it to try to make it playable -- with limited success.
- Finetales
- Posts: 1482
- Joined: Mar 23, 2018
[quote="BGuttman"]This reminds me of a colleague who bought a cheap Chinese contrabassoon (it was still quite expensive, though). He then had to spend a small fortune on it to try to make it playable -- with limited success.[/quote]
The Wessex is playable out of the box, though. Chinese woodwinds (especially double reeds) require a lot more work to be decent.
Point being, if you bought a Chinese contra (especially a Wessex), you could give it to your tech to get an adjustment if you wanted, but it's not like they'd have to completely rebuild the instrument.
The downside to the Wessex is that, like everything Wessex makes, it has been steadily increasing in price. It used to be $3k, now it's $3.6k. Wessex instruments are no longer the screaming deals they used to be, but at least in contra land it's still the best choice for anything less than a $9k+ investment.
The Wessex is playable out of the box, though. Chinese woodwinds (especially double reeds) require a lot more work to be decent.
Point being, if you bought a Chinese contra (especially a Wessex), you could give it to your tech to get an adjustment if you wanted, but it's not like they'd have to completely rebuild the instrument.
The downside to the Wessex is that, like everything Wessex makes, it has been steadily increasing in price. It used to be $3k, now it's $3.6k. Wessex instruments are no longer the screaming deals they used to be, but at least in contra land it's still the best choice for anything less than a $9k+ investment.
- Burgerbob
- Posts: 6327
- Joined: Apr 23, 2018
[quote="Finetales"]If you want to get a cheap contra, get the Wessex. It may not be great compared to a $10k+ contra, but it's better than the typical Jin Bao Thein clones (like the Dillon and O'Malley). Plus, it comes with slides for both popular valve tunings so you can decide which one you prefer.[/quote]
To be specific for those reading, this one:
<LINK_TEXT text="https://us.wessex-tubas.com/products/f- ... bone-pf588">https://us.wessex-tubas.com/products/f-contrabass-trombone-pf588</LINK_TEXT>
This is floor for new contras, anything underneath this will takes tons of work and be very unfun to play.
To be specific for those reading, this one:
<LINK_TEXT text="https://us.wessex-tubas.com/products/f- ... bone-pf588">https://us.wessex-tubas.com/products/f-contrabass-trombone-pf588</LINK_TEXT>
This is floor for new contras, anything underneath this will takes tons of work and be very unfun to play.
- JoeStanko
- Posts: 135
- Joined: Apr 11, 2018
[quote="Burgerbob"]<QUOTE author="Finetales" post_id="162530" time="1636815338" user_id="136">
If you want to get a cheap contra, get the Wessex. It may not be great compared to a $10k+ contra, but it's better than the typical Jin Bao Thein clones (like the Dillon and O'Malley). Plus, it comes with slides for both popular valve tunings so you can decide which one you prefer.[/quote]
To be specific for those reading, this one:
<LINK_TEXT text="https://us.wessex-tubas.com/products/f- ... bone-pf588">https://us.wessex-tubas.com/products/f-contrabass-trombone-pf588</LINK_TEXT>
This is floor for new contras, anything underneath this will takes tons of work and be very unfun to play.
</QUOTE>
I have had a JinBao BBb contra some time - the double slide is terrific. There were some issues to address, but from having had a few of the Miraphone models this one is very playable.
I also have the Wessex - it is a good choice for seeing if F contra works for you. The flexible tuning offers nice options, the rotors are smooth and the slide works well. The leadpipe is threaded - I don't know if it's Shires or Edwards compatible.
As it turns out I'm not taking well to an F contra so it will likely he for sale - I still want to take some more time to see if I can get comfortable with the an instrument pitched in F.
Feel free to contact me directly for specifics on either instrument.
Joe Stanko - <EMAIL email="joestanko@gmail.com">joestanko@gmail.com</EMAIL>
If you want to get a cheap contra, get the Wessex. It may not be great compared to a $10k+ contra, but it's better than the typical Jin Bao Thein clones (like the Dillon and O'Malley). Plus, it comes with slides for both popular valve tunings so you can decide which one you prefer.[/quote]
To be specific for those reading, this one:
<LINK_TEXT text="https://us.wessex-tubas.com/products/f- ... bone-pf588">https://us.wessex-tubas.com/products/f-contrabass-trombone-pf588</LINK_TEXT>
This is floor for new contras, anything underneath this will takes tons of work and be very unfun to play.
</QUOTE>
I have had a JinBao BBb contra some time - the double slide is terrific. There were some issues to address, but from having had a few of the Miraphone models this one is very playable.
I also have the Wessex - it is a good choice for seeing if F contra works for you. The flexible tuning offers nice options, the rotors are smooth and the slide works well. The leadpipe is threaded - I don't know if it's Shires or Edwards compatible.
As it turns out I'm not taking well to an F contra so it will likely he for sale - I still want to take some more time to see if I can get comfortable with the an instrument pitched in F.
Feel free to contact me directly for specifics on either instrument.
Joe Stanko - <EMAIL email="joestanko@gmail.com">joestanko@gmail.com</EMAIL>
- DougHulme
- Posts: 558
- Joined: Apr 27, 2018
Joe... I concur with your experience and what you say and have decided to stay with the BBb despite the bad press it gets from most. I wonder if the OP was thinking BBb not F?... Doug
- JoeStanko
- Posts: 135
- Joined: Apr 11, 2018
[quote="DougHulme"]Joe... I concur with your experience and what you say and have decided to stay with the BBb despite the bad press it gets from most. I wonder if the OP was thinking BBb not F?... Doug[/quote]
Hi Doug, we can await a reply from the OP, but it looks like he's referring to F as Wessex hasn't offered the BBb for some time.
I'm not saying that the BBb is preferable to the F - it took quite a lot of practice time and getting some other issues straightened out to be comfortable. This model has no leadpipe and it is supplied with a small tuba mouthpiece - having a well made bass trombone leadpipe carefully installed was a major improvement. I had John Stork modify the shank on a Bach CB30 mouthpiece to adjust it as a standard bass trombone taper.
It is limited as it's is a single valve - pedal DDb is at the end of double slide, so no pedal CC. I'm going to try a few more mouthpieces - my Black contra model is clearer than the CB30 but the Bach fits the instrument's character better.
Joe
Hi Doug, we can await a reply from the OP, but it looks like he's referring to F as Wessex hasn't offered the BBb for some time.
I'm not saying that the BBb is preferable to the F - it took quite a lot of practice time and getting some other issues straightened out to be comfortable. This model has no leadpipe and it is supplied with a small tuba mouthpiece - having a well made bass trombone leadpipe carefully installed was a major improvement. I had John Stork modify the shank on a Bach CB30 mouthpiece to adjust it as a standard bass trombone taper.
It is limited as it's is a single valve - pedal DDb is at the end of double slide, so no pedal CC. I'm going to try a few more mouthpieces - my Black contra model is clearer than the CB30 but the Bach fits the instrument's character better.
Joe
- DougHulme
- Posts: 558
- Joined: Apr 27, 2018
Joe
Ah yes, youre probably right - I was thinking he mentioned having a BBb when he was at college.
No I realise the way you phrased it that you were not advocating one over the other, it was the way you said it that resonated with me because I tried both and I dont know what it is, I think its a hundred years of playing a Bb instrument, its a sixth sense or something, it just feels more comfortable somehow... I think I am probably subconsciously lazy and BBb is easier? maybe anyway. Plus I always play a single trigger bass whenever I can get away with it.
On the mouthpiece front I had a Denis Wick Tuba mouthpiece (cant find it now to say what model it was) but I really didnt get on with it, I play smaller pieces on Bass and I think it may have been too big a jump for me and I only rarely us the contra. I spoke to Doug Elliot about it and he gave me his recommendation which is a CB 119 rim, CB N cup and N 8 shank with 2015 stamped on it. I found it perfect straightaway and was a big help to me. Not very helpful to say I settled on the frst mouthpiece I tried but Doug was spot on.
I dont own the contra I have but being the custodian I probably could modify it, I am curious to know what leadpipe you had fitted to yours?
I think in my situation its a case of "what youve never had you'll never miss" I only have ever played this one and the Chinese F I borrowed to compare for a few weeks. Maybe I should pay a visit to Thein and have a play on theirs, Max once told me they usually have a BBb in stock. Bit of an over kill for the 6 or 7 times a year I could use it and I'm sure my parents inheritence would be better spent!
Kindest... Doug
Ah yes, youre probably right - I was thinking he mentioned having a BBb when he was at college.
No I realise the way you phrased it that you were not advocating one over the other, it was the way you said it that resonated with me because I tried both and I dont know what it is, I think its a hundred years of playing a Bb instrument, its a sixth sense or something, it just feels more comfortable somehow... I think I am probably subconsciously lazy and BBb is easier? maybe anyway. Plus I always play a single trigger bass whenever I can get away with it.
On the mouthpiece front I had a Denis Wick Tuba mouthpiece (cant find it now to say what model it was) but I really didnt get on with it, I play smaller pieces on Bass and I think it may have been too big a jump for me and I only rarely us the contra. I spoke to Doug Elliot about it and he gave me his recommendation which is a CB 119 rim, CB N cup and N 8 shank with 2015 stamped on it. I found it perfect straightaway and was a big help to me. Not very helpful to say I settled on the frst mouthpiece I tried but Doug was spot on.
I dont own the contra I have but being the custodian I probably could modify it, I am curious to know what leadpipe you had fitted to yours?
I think in my situation its a case of "what youve never had you'll never miss" I only have ever played this one and the Chinese F I borrowed to compare for a few weeks. Maybe I should pay a visit to Thein and have a play on theirs, Max once told me they usually have a BBb in stock. Bit of an over kill for the 6 or 7 times a year I could use it and I'm sure my parents inheritence would be better spent!
Kindest... Doug
- harrisonreed
- Posts: 6479
- Joined: Aug 17, 2018
That's an expensive itch to scratch....
I thought the best built, cheapest contra was this one:
<LINK_TEXT text="https://www.vsl.co.at/en/Brass_II/Contr ... e#!Reviews">https://www.vsl.co.at/en/Brass_II/Contrabass_trombone#!Reviews</LINK_TEXT>
Jokes aside, yeah. That's gotta take a lot of passion to get into!
I thought the best built, cheapest contra was this one:
<LINK_TEXT text="https://www.vsl.co.at/en/Brass_II/Contr ... e#!Reviews">https://www.vsl.co.at/en/Brass_II/Contrabass_trombone#!Reviews</LINK_TEXT>
Jokes aside, yeah. That's gotta take a lot of passion to get into!
- Reidclag
- Posts: 32
- Joined: Nov 12, 2021
[quote="deanmccarty"]I have tried the old version Wessex and it was NOT good… the new version Wessex is better… but still not a great instrument… I get what you are thinking… contras are expensive, so I’ll just get one of these Chinese horns to play around on… but, $3K isn’t chump change…
I have been in the market for a contra for a while… I finally decided to drop the change and ordered a Jürgen Voigt through Steve Ferguson at Hornguys. Yes… it’s more than a Wessex… but it will be a fantastic instrument that is built to order. And, it’s less than any of the other quality contra makers out there. If you’re able to afford a quality instrument I recommend not cutting corners.
Just my opinion.[/quote]
It would be wonderful to buy a quality contra like a Jürgen Voigt, Rath, Thein, etc. or even try one of the used horns currently at Brass Ark (the Alexander for $6,450 is tempting), though my wife would kill me haha. Unfortunately I can't make that large of a financial commitment at the moment.
I have been in the market for a contra for a while… I finally decided to drop the change and ordered a Jürgen Voigt through Steve Ferguson at Hornguys. Yes… it’s more than a Wessex… but it will be a fantastic instrument that is built to order. And, it’s less than any of the other quality contra makers out there. If you’re able to afford a quality instrument I recommend not cutting corners.
Just my opinion.[/quote]
It would be wonderful to buy a quality contra like a Jürgen Voigt, Rath, Thein, etc. or even try one of the used horns currently at Brass Ark (the Alexander for $6,450 is tempting), though my wife would kill me haha. Unfortunately I can't make that large of a financial commitment at the moment.
- Reidclag
- Posts: 32
- Joined: Nov 12, 2021
[quote="Finetales"]<QUOTE author="BGuttman" post_id="162531" time="1636815457" user_id="53">
This reminds me of a colleague who bought a cheap Chinese contrabassoon (it was still quite expensive, though). He then had to spend a small fortune on it to try to make it playable -- with limited success.[/quote]
The Wessex is playable out of the box, though. Chinese woodwinds (especially double reeds) require a lot more work to be decent.
Point being, if you bought a Chinese contra (especially a Wessex), you could give it to your tech to get an adjustment if you wanted, but it's not like they'd have to completely rebuild the instrument.
The downside to the Wessex is that, like everything Wessex makes, it has been steadily increasing in price. It used to be $3k, now it's $3.6k. Wessex instruments are no longer the screaming deals they used to be, but at least in contra land it's still the best choice for anything less than a $9k+ investment.
</QUOTE>
Thank you for clarifying, I was hoping the Wessex would be decent enough to avoid the need of a tech having to basically rebuild the horn. Do you think their horns are getting more expensive because of regular inflation like everything else? Or could the higher price mean better quality control than before?
This reminds me of a colleague who bought a cheap Chinese contrabassoon (it was still quite expensive, though). He then had to spend a small fortune on it to try to make it playable -- with limited success.[/quote]
The Wessex is playable out of the box, though. Chinese woodwinds (especially double reeds) require a lot more work to be decent.
Point being, if you bought a Chinese contra (especially a Wessex), you could give it to your tech to get an adjustment if you wanted, but it's not like they'd have to completely rebuild the instrument.
The downside to the Wessex is that, like everything Wessex makes, it has been steadily increasing in price. It used to be $3k, now it's $3.6k. Wessex instruments are no longer the screaming deals they used to be, but at least in contra land it's still the best choice for anything less than a $9k+ investment.
</QUOTE>
Thank you for clarifying, I was hoping the Wessex would be decent enough to avoid the need of a tech having to basically rebuild the horn. Do you think their horns are getting more expensive because of regular inflation like everything else? Or could the higher price mean better quality control than before?
- Reidclag
- Posts: 32
- Joined: Nov 12, 2021
[quote="JoeStanko"]<QUOTE author="Burgerbob" post_id="162533" time="1636816454" user_id="3131">
To be specific for those reading, this one:
<LINK_TEXT text="https://us.wessex-tubas.com/products/f- ... bone-pf588">https://us.wessex-tubas.com/products/f-contrabass-trombone-pf588</LINK_TEXT>
This is floor for new contras, anything underneath this will takes tons of work and be very unfun to play.[/quote]
I have had a JinBao BBb contra some time - the double slide is terrific. There were some issues to address, but from having had a few of the Miraphone models this one is very playable.
I also have the Wessex - it is a good choice for seeing if F contra works for you. The flexible tuning offers nice options, the rotors are smooth and the slide works well. The leadpipe is threaded - I don't know if it's Shires or Edwards compatible.
As it turns out I'm not taking well to an F contra so it will likely he for sale - I still want to take some more time to see if I can get comfortable with the an instrument pitched in F.
Feel free to contact me directly for specifics on either instrument.
Joe Stanko - <EMAIL email="joestanko@gmail.com">joestanko@gmail.com</EMAIL>
</QUOTE>
I'm really surprised the double slide on your BBb is that good, the Miraphone I had wasn't too great so that didn't help with the playability. Though if I remember correctly it was built in the early 70's, so the age the horn could've been a factor.
And I'll send over an email regarding your Wessex, I'm definitely interested in learning more about it!
To be specific for those reading, this one:
<LINK_TEXT text="https://us.wessex-tubas.com/products/f- ... bone-pf588">https://us.wessex-tubas.com/products/f-contrabass-trombone-pf588</LINK_TEXT>
This is floor for new contras, anything underneath this will takes tons of work and be very unfun to play.[/quote]
I have had a JinBao BBb contra some time - the double slide is terrific. There were some issues to address, but from having had a few of the Miraphone models this one is very playable.
I also have the Wessex - it is a good choice for seeing if F contra works for you. The flexible tuning offers nice options, the rotors are smooth and the slide works well. The leadpipe is threaded - I don't know if it's Shires or Edwards compatible.
As it turns out I'm not taking well to an F contra so it will likely he for sale - I still want to take some more time to see if I can get comfortable with the an instrument pitched in F.
Feel free to contact me directly for specifics on either instrument.
Joe Stanko - <EMAIL email="joestanko@gmail.com">joestanko@gmail.com</EMAIL>
</QUOTE>
I'm really surprised the double slide on your BBb is that good, the Miraphone I had wasn't too great so that didn't help with the playability. Though if I remember correctly it was built in the early 70's, so the age the horn could've been a factor.
And I'll send over an email regarding your Wessex, I'm definitely interested in learning more about it!
- Finetales
- Posts: 1482
- Joined: Mar 23, 2018
[quote="Reidclag"]Do you think their horns are getting more expensive because of regular inflation like everything else? Or could the higher price mean better quality control than before?[/quote]
I saw someone mention (I think on TubeNet?) that the owner told them that price increases correspond to improvements in a design. Wessex does seem to regularly improve at the very least their popular models, but I'm inclined to believe that's not the whole story. Cynical me is pretty certain that some of it is just hiking the price because they can or adjusting for inflation.
I saw someone mention (I think on TubeNet?) that the owner told them that price increases correspond to improvements in a design. Wessex does seem to regularly improve at the very least their popular models, but I'm inclined to believe that's not the whole story. Cynical me is pretty certain that some of it is just hiking the price because they can or adjusting for inflation.
- deanmccarty
- Posts: 224
- Joined: May 01, 2018
[quote="Reidclag"]
It would be wonderful to buy a quality contra like a Jürgen Voigt, Rath, Thein, etc. or even try one of the used horns currently at Brass Ark (the Alexander for $6,450 is tempting), though my wife would kill me haha. Unfortunately I can't make that large of a financial commitment at the moment.[/quote]
I’ve been very lucky over the years… every time I look into buying a new instrument my wife has been very encouraging. I have to be the one with some restraint.
It would be wonderful to buy a quality contra like a Jürgen Voigt, Rath, Thein, etc. or even try one of the used horns currently at Brass Ark (the Alexander for $6,450 is tempting), though my wife would kill me haha. Unfortunately I can't make that large of a financial commitment at the moment.[/quote]
I’ve been very lucky over the years… every time I look into buying a new instrument my wife has been very encouraging. I have to be the one with some restraint.
- harrisonreed
- Posts: 6479
- Joined: Aug 17, 2018
I've been allowed to buy two trombones since I got married 11 years ago, and my wife was very encouraging. But now that I have the most versatile small bore and the most versatile large bore, and she let me get these because that was the selling point for both, I won't be buying any new or used trombones for a loooooong tiiiiiime.
- hyperbolica
- Posts: 3990
- Joined: Mar 23, 2018
[quote="Finetales"]<QUOTE author="Reidclag" post_id="162617" time="1636863112" user_id="13669">Do you think their horns are getting more expensive because of regular inflation like everything else? Or could the higher price mean better quality control than before?[/quote]
I saw someone mention (I think on TubeNet?) that the owner told them that price increases correspond to improvements in a design. Wessex does seem to regularly improve at the very least their popular models, but I'm inclined to believe that's not the whole story. Cynical me is pretty certain that some of it is just hiking the price because they can or adjusting for inflation.
</QUOTE>
A lot of the price hikes have been due to tariffs on Chinese manufactured goods,shipping difficulties, covid work shortages, as well as inflation in China.
I saw someone mention (I think on TubeNet?) that the owner told them that price increases correspond to improvements in a design. Wessex does seem to regularly improve at the very least their popular models, but I'm inclined to believe that's not the whole story. Cynical me is pretty certain that some of it is just hiking the price because they can or adjusting for inflation.
</QUOTE>
A lot of the price hikes have been due to tariffs on Chinese manufactured goods,shipping difficulties, covid work shortages, as well as inflation in China.
- eagleGT
- Posts: 6
- Joined: Aug 11, 2021
I don’t think I have ever played anything with the O’Malley brand on it, but they are located near me and I have played in ensembles with the owner and most of the sales staff. The owner is a bass trombone/tuba player and I know I have seen him playing on one of his O’Malley basses in a jazz gig.