Harmonic pillars
- Indiebass1993
- Posts: 198
- Joined: Sep 20, 2018
Hey all!
I recently got a new-to-me Edwards 502 with the harmonic pillars. For those that have either the 502 or the 396, what are some of your favorite combinations?
I recently got a new-to-me Edwards 502 with the harmonic pillars. For those that have either the 502 or the 396, what are some of your favorite combinations?
- Mv2541
- Posts: 562
- Joined: Mar 29, 2018
I have JA’s old 396, and my answer is that all of the pillars just make things worse. After an afternoon of testing it seemed like every pillar took away color and resonance, although there was one pillar in one spot that I would probably use if I played in a really dead hall and just wanted to project a little more at the cost of feel and color.
- harrisonreed
- Posts: 6479
- Joined: Aug 17, 2018
I love the pillars. I use the number 2 copper in the bell side hole facing down, together with the long copper in the middle hole, facing up. In a really dead or small room, the long pillar gets screwed in all the way. In a better room where I can project, it's nearly all the way out.
In this way, the horn plays exactly the same no matter how good or crappy the space is.
What's crazy is that in doing this, I've realized just how much of an effect the people and things around us have on how an instrument responds. Bunch of percussion equipment around you eating up sound? Screw further in. Articulations not clear in a live, muddy room? Screw out.
In this way, the horn plays exactly the same no matter how good or crappy the space is.
What's crazy is that in doing this, I've realized just how much of an effect the people and things around us have on how an instrument responds. Bunch of percussion equipment around you eating up sound? Screw further in. Articulations not clear in a live, muddy room? Screw out.
- timothy42b
- Posts: 1812
- Joined: Mar 27, 2018
[quote="harrisonreed"]What's crazy is that in doing this, I've realized just how much of an effect the people and things around us have on how an instrument responds. Bunch of percussion equipment around you eating up sound? Screw further in. Articulations not clear in a live, muddy room? Screw out.[/quote]
I've heard church organists request the congregation not to stand during the hymns because of the change in the acoustics.
That seems a little pretentious to me - I can see it being important during prelude, postlude, offertory, etc., but hymns are generally thought of as participation. IMO.
I've heard church organists request the congregation not to stand during the hymns because of the change in the acoustics.
That seems a little pretentious to me - I can see it being important during prelude, postlude, offertory, etc., but hymns are generally thought of as participation. IMO.
- harrisonreed
- Posts: 6479
- Joined: Aug 17, 2018
Well, I don't think that having a big guy or drum eating up my sound actually would change the projection much if the space above us wasn't also really changed, but it certainly changes my perception of not only the projection but also the response and resonance of the horn. There used to be nothing you could do about it, but now you can at least get your perception of how things should feel and sound back. It's fantastic.
I will note that the nickel/zinc pillars never did much for me. They change the horn, but not the way I want.
If anything, what the pillars have done is helped me eliminate the thought of whether or not I'm having a bad chop day. Turns out I almost never do, and it's just the acoustic space that is changing. Sure enough, now that I notice it, a drum has moved, the seating is slightly different, the damn acoustic curtains are half drawn, etc. I adjust the long pillar, suddenly it feels normal and everything works well again. Bad or different space, not a bad chop day.
I'm spoiled with this.
I will note that the nickel/zinc pillars never did much for me. They change the horn, but not the way I want.
If anything, what the pillars have done is helped me eliminate the thought of whether or not I'm having a bad chop day. Turns out I almost never do, and it's just the acoustic space that is changing. Sure enough, now that I notice it, a drum has moved, the seating is slightly different, the damn acoustic curtains are half drawn, etc. I adjust the long pillar, suddenly it feels normal and everything works well again. Bad or different space, not a bad chop day.
I'm spoiled with this.
- Anonymous
- Posts: 184
- Joined: Mar 22, 2026
[quote="Mv2541"]I have JA’s old 396, and my answer is that all of the pillars just make things worse. After an afternoon of testing it seemed like every pillar took away color and resonance, although there was one pillar in one spot that I would probably use if I played in a really dead hall and just wanted to project a little more at the cost of feel and color.[/quote]
I feel the exact same way, it just feels like the pillars are trading one aspect for another.
I feel the exact same way, it just feels like the pillars are trading one aspect for another.
- SwissTbone
- Posts: 1138
- Joined: Mar 23, 2018
[quote="quiethorn"]What are harmonic pillars?[/quote]
Metal rods that can be used on some Edwards models to change the response the horn.
Metal rods that can be used on some Edwards models to change the response the horn.
- Matt_K
- Posts: 4809
- Joined: Mar 21, 2018
I briefly tried a 396 when a colleague at the time switched to Edwards. I only briefly tried the pillars and found them to not be particularly enticing... although if they sold the harmonic pillar, I'd totally put one on my existing horns in a heartbeat because I'd realistically want more time than half an hour to try it... and it has a really slick aesthetic.
That said, I know some people I seriously respect (Harrison among them) that swear by the pillars. The people I know who have them have all had similar experiences to Harrison as well, but they used it exclusively in a classical context. I imagine more commercial applications would find the nickel to be a more appealing material. I'm glad that Edwards is offering the pillars on modular setups now, like their Thayer valves. Seems to me like a good way to get the Thayer style blow (more "open", broad) while being able to get a little bit more crispness out of the sound. Which is mildly ironic given how popular their rotor offerings seem to be at the moment.
That said, I know some people I seriously respect (Harrison among them) that swear by the pillars. The people I know who have them have all had similar experiences to Harrison as well, but they used it exclusively in a classical context. I imagine more commercial applications would find the nickel to be a more appealing material. I'm glad that Edwards is offering the pillars on modular setups now, like their Thayer valves. Seems to me like a good way to get the Thayer style blow (more "open", broad) while being able to get a little bit more crispness out of the sound. Which is mildly ironic given how popular their rotor offerings seem to be at the moment.
- heinzgries
- Posts: 250
- Joined: Apr 24, 2018
does it make sense to use harmonic pillars on a straight tenor?
if so, where should it be attached?
if so, where should it be attached?
- MTbassbone
- Posts: 558
- Joined: Apr 21, 2018
I think there is something to the pillars, but I don't find it very intuitive. I would also like to see some scientific analysis showing the difference in sound.
- Kdanielsen
- Posts: 609
- Joined: Jul 28, 2019
[quote="heinzgries"]does it make sense to use harmonic pillars on a straight tenor?
if so, where should it be attached?[/quote]
Edwards made a straight 547 horn with the harmonic brace/pillars that was absolutely amazing. I played it for ten minutes at a show and was blown away by it. They stopped making them unfortunately. I’d love to get my hands on one.
if so, where should it be attached?[/quote]
Edwards made a straight 547 horn with the harmonic brace/pillars that was absolutely amazing. I played it for ten minutes at a show and was blown away by it. They stopped making them unfortunately. I’d love to get my hands on one.
- Mv2541
- Posts: 562
- Joined: Mar 29, 2018
[quote="harrisonreed"]I love the pillars. I use the number 2 copper in the bell side hole facing down, together with the long copper in the middle hole, facing up. In a really dead or small room, the long pillar gets screwed in all the way. In a better room where I can project, it's nearly all the way out.
In this way, the horn plays exactly the same no matter how good or crappy the space is.
What's crazy is that in doing this, I've realized just how much of an effect the people and things around us have on how an instrument responds. Bunch of percussion equipment around you eating up sound? Screw further in. Articulations not clear in a live, muddy room? Screw out.[/quote]
Is the #2 copper the short one? If so I think that exact position was the only one I saw benefit from and for the exact same reason you described.
In this way, the horn plays exactly the same no matter how good or crappy the space is.
What's crazy is that in doing this, I've realized just how much of an effect the people and things around us have on how an instrument responds. Bunch of percussion equipment around you eating up sound? Screw further in. Articulations not clear in a live, muddy room? Screw out.[/quote]
Is the #2 copper the short one? If so I think that exact position was the only one I saw benefit from and for the exact same reason you described.
- harrisonreed
- Posts: 6479
- Joined: Aug 17, 2018
[quote="Mv2541"]<QUOTE author="harrisonreed" post_id="163812" time="1637964952" user_id="3642">
I love the pillars. I use the number 2 copper in the bell side hole facing down, together with the long copper in the middle hole, facing up. In a really dead or small room, the long pillar gets screwed in all the way. In a better room where I can project, it's nearly all the way out.
In this way, the horn plays exactly the same no matter how good or crappy the space is.
What's crazy is that in doing this, I've realized just how much of an effect the people and things around us have on how an instrument responds. Bunch of percussion equipment around you eating up sound? Screw further in. Articulations not clear in a live, muddy room? Screw out.[/quote]
Is the #2 copper the short one? If so I think that exact position was the only one I saw benefit from and for the exact same reason you described.
</QUOTE>
It's the short one, with two notches in it. This one never moves for me. I put it in the bell side hole, with the notches towards the flare. The horn seemed to have a bit of a warmer sound with it here so I just left it. I blind tested every combo on the bell side, this one won by a mile.
The long one has the brass stopper ring. That's the one that I change depending on how the acoustic feels. The middle hole seems to only effect the slot/stability of the horn. Hence the longest and most adjustable pillar goes there.
The slide side hole is too much. I don't mess with it.
Honestly the effect can be really drastic, but different rooms and acoustic situations have just as crazy of an effect, so it works for me. I'll take the consistency across all the different places I play in over having the best sounding instrument that only works perfectly in one room. It all seems so uppity, but once you notice it, it's hard to un-notice it.
I love the pillars. I use the number 2 copper in the bell side hole facing down, together with the long copper in the middle hole, facing up. In a really dead or small room, the long pillar gets screwed in all the way. In a better room where I can project, it's nearly all the way out.
In this way, the horn plays exactly the same no matter how good or crappy the space is.
What's crazy is that in doing this, I've realized just how much of an effect the people and things around us have on how an instrument responds. Bunch of percussion equipment around you eating up sound? Screw further in. Articulations not clear in a live, muddy room? Screw out.[/quote]
Is the #2 copper the short one? If so I think that exact position was the only one I saw benefit from and for the exact same reason you described.
</QUOTE>
It's the short one, with two notches in it. This one never moves for me. I put it in the bell side hole, with the notches towards the flare. The horn seemed to have a bit of a warmer sound with it here so I just left it. I blind tested every combo on the bell side, this one won by a mile.
The long one has the brass stopper ring. That's the one that I change depending on how the acoustic feels. The middle hole seems to only effect the slot/stability of the horn. Hence the longest and most adjustable pillar goes there.
The slide side hole is too much. I don't mess with it.
Honestly the effect can be really drastic, but different rooms and acoustic situations have just as crazy of an effect, so it works for me. I'll take the consistency across all the different places I play in over having the best sounding instrument that only works perfectly in one room. It all seems so uppity, but once you notice it, it's hard to un-notice it.
- hyperbolica
- Posts: 3990
- Joined: Mar 23, 2018
[quote="MTbassbone"]I think there is something to the pillars, but I don't find it very intuitive. I would also like to see some scientific analysis showing the difference in sound.[/quote]
I'd guess that a scientific analysis would show the effect is local. The posts are near the players ear for a reason. Like fine tuning the eq on a stage monitor.
I'd guess that a scientific analysis would show the effect is local. The posts are near the players ear for a reason. Like fine tuning the eq on a stage monitor.
- CalgaryTbone
- Posts: 1460
- Joined: May 10, 2018
I had a 396A on loan from a local music store for a week or two a few years ago. I was thinking of buying it so I played it in different settings and had a few of my Philharmonic colleagues listen to me play it against my current Edwards. In those sessions, I also tried using some of the Harmonic pillars and playing the same thing twice with and without pillars. All of my brass playing colleagues heard a difference - sometimes better and sometimes not.
I also had another chance to play around with them at the Edwards factory. I was getting some work done on my horns, and had some time hanging around and trying some horns. One of the guys there talked me through the process of trying the various pillars, and what effect they would have on the response/sound. His advice was right on the money - every pillar placement that he suggested caused the change of feel and sound that he predicted.
The horns were very good, with and without the pillars, and the differences aren't extreme, but they are noticeable. I'd compare it to different mouthpieces in the same size range, or similar leadpipes of a different length or material. If I were to purchase one of the horns that are set up for pillars, I would experiment with them to see if there was a setup that worked better for me than no pillars in the horn.
To the OP's original question, like Harrison, I didn't like the nickel pillars. The copper ones seemed to help emphasize the warmth of the horn to my ears. It was a while ago that I tried them, so I don't remember exactly which setups sounded the best to me. Christan or one of the other people there might have a guide for how to test them out in an organized way.
Jim Scott
I also had another chance to play around with them at the Edwards factory. I was getting some work done on my horns, and had some time hanging around and trying some horns. One of the guys there talked me through the process of trying the various pillars, and what effect they would have on the response/sound. His advice was right on the money - every pillar placement that he suggested caused the change of feel and sound that he predicted.
The horns were very good, with and without the pillars, and the differences aren't extreme, but they are noticeable. I'd compare it to different mouthpieces in the same size range, or similar leadpipes of a different length or material. If I were to purchase one of the horns that are set up for pillars, I would experiment with them to see if there was a setup that worked better for me than no pillars in the horn.
To the OP's original question, like Harrison, I didn't like the nickel pillars. The copper ones seemed to help emphasize the warmth of the horn to my ears. It was a while ago that I tried them, so I don't remember exactly which setups sounded the best to me. Christan or one of the other people there might have a guide for how to test them out in an organized way.
Jim Scott