One rim to rule them all?

SwissTbone · by **SwissTbone** » 2021-12-03 4:52 p.m.

I'm curious to hear your stories about using the same mouthpiece rim on different size trombones.

Here's mine: I play a lot of bass trombone and a little less large bore tenor. Only little small bore. I have always felt it was easiest for me to have characteristic rim sizes to get the sounds I have in my head.

Bass trombone with a Symington 1½G

Tenor trombone with a Greg Black NY 5.5

That worked kinda ok for quite some time. Really good range and flexibility on bass, always felt good on tenor also although range and endurance needed quite a lot of work. Nowadays I feel like it takes too much work to keep up with the tenor and I'm asking myself if I should try a rim similar to the 1½G on tenor. But then... pretty sure my endurance will go out of the window.

Opinions? Is it really a matter of rim size or more of rim contour? Hmm...

I have plenty of mouthpieces lying around to experiment. But maybe your experiences can guide me a little.

Burgerbob · by **Burgerbob** » 2021-12-03 5:01 p.m.

Couldn't hurt to try an NY 3.5 first.

I don't think I could do one rim for everything, but I do use a larger rim on tenor than most people would to get closer to my 29mm size on bass (which I don't think would work on any tenor).

My endurance is miles- MILES better on a 3 size rim than even a 4 sized rim. And now I'm thinking even that may be a little small...

SwissTbone · by **SwissTbone** » 2021-12-03 5:08 p.m.

[quote="Burgerbob"]Couldn't hurt to try an NY 3.5 first.

I don't think I could do one rim for everything, but I do use a larger rim on tenor than most people would to get closer to my 29mm size on bass (which I don't think would work on any tenor).

My endurance is miles- MILES better on a 3 size rim than even a 4 sized rim. And now I'm thinking even that may be a little small...[/quote]

So your tenor piece is kind of a compromise? How do you feel about your sound on tenor? Also a compromise or not?

Elow · by **Elow** » 2021-12-03 5:14 p.m.

My doug elliot XT104G+ is great, definitely not a compromise. I use a symington 1.5 on bass as well, no issues on endurance except for me issues

Burgerbob · by **Burgerbob** » 2021-12-03 5:15 p.m.

[quote="SwissTbone"]

So your tenor piece is kind of a compromise? How do you feel about your sound on tenor? Also a compromise or not?[/quote]

I just play a 3G/5G on large tenor, and an XT104 rim on small tenor. Around the same size, different feel of course. I don't think either of those are way outside the realm of tenor sounds. I also have a Griego Alessi 1C that I enjoy, and may switch back to, and it sounds tenory as well.

Remember that most of the sound comes from the mouthpiece design after the rim- the cup, throat, backbore. The rim changes things too, but more for the player than the sound. Alessi sounds like a tenor trombonist even though he's on a 2-sized rim.

On small tenor there is a larger change IMO, but I just can't do the small stuff. I'd rather be able to play and sound a little larger, than not be able to play at all.

harrisonreed · 2021-12-03 5:15 p.m.

The DE106N or Bousfield rim is it. They are 2G size, and that is the magical goldilocks size rim.

If I only played bass, I'd probably go larger, but I don't really care too much about bass trombone right now, but it's the only rim that works on EVERY trombone for me, including alto. If I go smaller, I lose range on both ends for both tenor and alto.

Bach5G · by **Bach5G** » 2021-12-03 5:18 p.m.

Maybe something a bit bigger on the tenor mpc?

I’m finding my bass mpc - a 2GP - a pretty easy fit, partly because of the nice fat rim. Very plug ‘n play.

I’ve been playing more small tenor these days. I’m finding a DE 102 a nice fit. With my small tenor I use a C3 cup/shank. If I were to play my medium and large tenors, I would probably use an E or G cup/shank.

Doug_Elliott · by **Doug_Elliott** » 2021-12-03 8:57 p.m.

It's a common misconception that small rims give better endurance and high range while larger rims give less endurance and high range. That really depends on embouchure type, and since most players (and teachers) are completely unaware of that subject, the myth endures.

The most common embouchure type functions better in every way on larger rims - including endurance and high range. The second most common embouchure type IS affected by the rims in the "traditional" way, and generally does better on smaller sizes - a large rim is bad for high range and endurance.

hyperbolica · by **hyperbolica** » 2021-12-04 10:36 a.m.

I use 104 rims for all tenors. For bass I use 112. I have cups C-G. G gets a large shank on large bore. 500 - 525 get smaller cups and shanks. My 79h works with cups D - F, and takes on many different characters depending on the cup, but all with the same rim.

But I need something bigger for bass.

I find I can go bigger than 104 no problem, but it's hard to go smaller. I might actually do better on 105 or 106 for tenor, but I don't want to push it too hard.

GabrielRice · by **GabrielRice** » 2021-12-04 12:11 p.m.

I take occasional gigs on tenor trombone with a hybrid mouthpiece from Doug: LB114 I I8. I've played quintet, orchestra 2nd trombone, chamber orchestra single trombone parts, etc. I have even played bass trumpet with an LB 114 E E3.

I don't have any particular issues with endurance, though I would hesitate to play principal in a large orchestra or a high part for a trombone or brass ensemble.

Kbiggs · by **Kbiggs** » 2021-12-04 1:28 p.m.

Some people sound and feel better with one rim. Others are able to use different mouthpiece sizes and rims. It really depends on the individual and how much they are willing to practice all of their doubling instruments. At this point in my career (ha ha), I think the important things are:

Can you get a consistent and characteristic sound on that instrument regardless of the rim/mouthpiece size? (Does it sound “good”?)

Do you play each instrument/mouthpiece in the same way (consistent embouchure and production), or do you make embouchure changes/adjustments based on the mouthpiece/rim size and placement depending on the instrument? (Does it feel “good”?)

FWIW, I play a DE XT102 G G8 on tenor, and a LB113 K K8 (sometimes a K9) on bass.

Kdanielsen · by **Kdanielsen** » 2021-12-04 3:36 p.m.

“Two rims to rule them all”

I use one size (Bach 1.5 rim with various cups) for tenor/alto/euph/bass trumpet and another size for bass (Griego GP). That’s what’s been working for me. I’m primary a classical tenor player.

SwissTbone · by **SwissTbone** » 2021-12-05 1:36 a.m.

Ok. Thanks for all your input!

I thought more people here on trombonechat used one rim for tenor and Bass. But consensus seems to be to use a bigger than usual piece on tenor but not going as big as on the bass.

Anyone else uses a 1.5 rim on tenor as Kdanielsen does?

Vegasbound · by **Vegasbound** » 2021-12-05 4:54 a.m.

I used a 25.4 size on alto/tenor/ euph / bass trumpet

Was happier on a 2g size than 1.5 on bass

harrisonreed · by **harrisonreed** » 2021-12-05 6:09 a.m.

[quote="SwissTbone"]Ok. Thanks for all your input!

I thought more people here on trombonechat used one rim for tenor and Bass. But consensus seems to be to use a bigger than usual piece on tenor but not going as big as on the bass.

Anyone else uses a 1.5 rim on tenor as Kdanielsen does?[/quote]

The rim I use, I don't know, I guess it depends on the 1.5. the DE106N is like a 2G but some 1.5's have the same ID spec.

MrHCinDE · by **MrHCinDE** » 2021-12-05 4:37 p.m.

[quote="SwissTbone"]Anyone else uses a 1.5 rim on tenor as Kdanielsen does?[/quote]

Not quite 1.5 but I’m experimenting with a Mt Vernon 2G on large bore tenor during the latest pause in rehearsals/gigs. I already like it on bass and if I found myself playing 2nd tenor regularly with some occasional bass I could use it happily for both horns. Also, I find it quite interesting to understand the differences in how my tenor and bass play without mouthpiece changes in the equation.

SwissTbone · by **SwissTbone** » 2021-12-05 4:42 p.m.

[quote="MrHCinDE"]<QUOTE author="SwissTbone" post_id="164570" time="1638686215" user_id="62">
Anyone else uses a 1.5 rim on tenor as Kdanielsen does?[/quote]

Not quite 1.5 but I’m experimenting with a Mt Vernon 2G on large bore tenor during the latest pause in rehearsals/gigs. I already like it on bass and if I found myself playing 2nd tenor regularly with some occasional bass I could use it happily for both horns. Also, I find it quite interesting to understand the differences in how my tenor and bass play without mouthpiece changes in the equation.
</QUOTE>

Yeah..I should try the symington 2g on tenor.

Jimkinkella · by **Jimkinkella** » 2021-12-05 4:43 p.m.

Personal opinion only, but I use a 5-ish size rim on everything other than bass and change up the cups and shanks depending on the application.

Usually Doug's 112 rim with different underparts on basses.

MrHCinDE · by **MrHCinDE** » 2021-12-05 5:16 p.m.

[quote="SwissTbone"]<QUOTE author="MrHCinDE" post_id="164623" time="1638740260" user_id="3472">

Not quite 1.5 but I’m experimenting with a Mt Vernon 2G on large bore tenor during the latest pause in rehearsals/gigs. I already like it on bass and if I found myself playing 2nd tenor regularly with some occasional bass I could use it happily for both horns. Also, I find it quite interesting to understand the differences in how my tenor and bass play without mouthpiece changes in the equation.[/quote]

Yeah..I should try the symington 2g on tenor.
</QUOTE>

I should have said that something in the 4.5-5 range is my usual choice for tenor.

Lastbone · by **Lastbone** » 2021-12-05 6:01 p.m.

Thanks for this thread, now I don't feel like such a freak....

Bach 1.5 G for tenor, Griego .25 for bass.

Tbarh · by **Tbarh** » 2021-12-11 3:30 a.m.

[quote="SwissTbone"]<QUOTE author="MrHCinDE" post_id="164623" time="1638740260" user_id="3472">

Not quite 1.5 but I’m experimenting with a Mt Vernon 2G on large bore tenor during the latest pause in rehearsals/gigs. I already like it on bass and if I found myself playing 2nd tenor regularly with some occasional bass I could use it happily for both horns. Also, I find it quite interesting to understand the differences in how my tenor and bass play without mouthpiece changes in the equation.[/quote]

Yeah..I should try the symington 2g on tenor.
</QUOTE>
You May probably struggle to get a tenor sound on a Symington 2...The Symington 2 (which i play on bass) are very dark sounding. Maybe more so than the 1.5. I play tenor with a "Marcellus" with a rim widen to match the Symington 2. Works very well... When i played the 1.5 i used a similar sized rim on another "Marcellus"... Harder to play but still good sounding. The goldilocks size for tenor and bass are 2G size..

harrisonreed · by **harrisonreed** » 2021-12-11 3:32 a.m.

2G's in general are not a tenor mouthpiece, full stop. The rim might be perfect. The rest of the mouthpiece is wrong for tenor.

A DE XT-G cup is about as deep as you would need to go on tenor, unless if you're using a rim that is too small even for tenor and you're trying to compensate (which describes a 5G!).

Burgerbob · by **Burgerbob** » 2021-12-11 4:28 a.m.

[quote="harrisonreed"]2G's in general are not a tenor mouthpiece, full stop. The rim might be perfect. The rest of the mouthpiece is wrong for tenor.

[/quote]

:clever:

Rim =/= the rest of the mouthpiece. Find a rim you like and use it on a TENOR cup you like. 2021 is the best time ever for these kinds of options!

SwissTbone · by **SwissTbone** » 2021-12-11 6:17 a.m.

Yep. Tried and tested. The 2G definitely doesn't work as a tenor piece for me. Not a surprise of course.

Matt_K · by **Matt_K** » 2021-12-11 6:35 a.m.

Isn't the 3G and 2G depth the same (at least from Bach... nominally of course)? While I use something shallower, I can see the utility of that depth (similar to the 52E2 iIIRC) but probably not any deeper than that. And it would be for specific contexts.

For example, a few years ago (well, more than a few at this point), I did the solo on the Sibelius organ symphony and played something that deep. If I was playing 3rd in a 4 bone section like on some of the Webern ~~[url=https://youtu.be/_IazQ7OmMLc?t=352]~~orchestral pieces. Although to be fair, I don't recall if Webern indicated which trombone specifically to be used in the parts; the scores all seem to just say "Posaune" and use the numerics to specify which stave is which. Very interesting writing and most of them are in the bass staff, but don't justify anything deeper.

BGuttman · by **BGuttman** » 2021-12-11 7:37 a.m.

Orchestral writing can be a bit schizophrenic. The only consistent thing is that Trombone I is generally higher than Trombone II and Trombone III is generally lower than Trombone II. We have translated that into the 1st using a smaller bore tenor than the 2nd, and the 3rd using the largest bore. Some 2nd parts descend into the "bass range" (below the bass staff). Sometimes the piece is written for 4 trombones, with the 4th being either a bass or contra and the 3rd being a tenor or a bass. Note that the clef sign is often meaningless as well. Some Russian music has all trombone parts (even bass!) written in alto clef. A part labeled "alto trombone" simply means "high trombone" and does not necessarily imply use of an alto instrument. In the Shostakovich Festive Overture there are SIX trombone parts, with 4, 5, and 6 coming in only toward the end of the piece; 4 is a "2nd First", 5 is a "2nd Second" and 6 is a "2nd Third".

Joe Alessi is famous for using a wide rim on a shallow cup for tenor and I'd certainly never fault him for inappropriate playing.

Dennis · by **Dennis** » 2021-12-26 6:59 p.m.

[quote="BGuttman"]Orchestral writing can be a bit schizophrenic.

---snip---

Note that the clef sign is often meaningless as well. Some Russian music has all trombone parts (even bass!) written in alto clef.[/quote]

And those bass trombone parts written in alto do descend to D1 or C1 ( :bassclef: :space2: 8vb) written is alto clef.

I hate reading ledger lines below the staff in :alto: clef.

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One rim to rule them all?