Rationale For Contras

officermayo · 2021-12-13 8:28 p.m.

What would be your answer when asked if we really need contrabass trombones when we already have tubas?

OneTon · 2021-12-13 8:40 p.m.

Contrabass trombones build strong bodies 12 ways. Give me (50) major scales around a circle of fifths.

Matt_K · by **Matt_K** » 2021-12-13 8:46 p.m.

Why do we need trombones when we already have euphoniums? 😉

Burgerbob · by **Burgerbob** » 2021-12-13 8:55 p.m.

Why do we have apples when we have oranges?

OneTon · by **OneTon** » 2021-12-13 9:00 p.m.

A contrabass trombone offers alternative timbres and colors to that of the tuba. This provides opportunities for composers to explore as well as variety for concert attendees listening to legacy pieces.

officermayo · 2021-12-13 9:07 p.m.

[quote="OneTon"]A contrabass trombone offers alternative timbres and colors to that of the tuba. This provides opportunities for composers to explore as well as variety for concert attendees listening to legacy pieces.[/quote]
Thanks for a legitimate answer to my question.

I get asked things like this by the community college students with which I work.

As I'm not a bass bone player I turned to the collective knowledge of the group.

Didn't expect wise ass in place of wisdom.

officermayo · by **officermayo** » 2021-12-13 9:12 p.m.

[quote="Matt K"]Why do we need trombones when we already have euphoniums? 😉[/quote]

As trombones predate the euphonium (a late 19th Century invention) you question makes no sense.

Burgerbob · by **Burgerbob** » 2021-12-13 9:15 p.m.

[quote="officermayo"]<QUOTE author="Matt K" post_id="165424" time="1639446412" user_id="48">
Why do we need trombones when we already have euphoniums? 😉[/quote]

As trombones predate the euphonium (a late 19th Century invention) you question makes no sense.
</QUOTE>

Well, your question also doesn't really make sense. Contrabass trombones are not a stand-in for the tuba, just like trombones are not a stand-in for euphonium. They're two different families with different capabilities and uses.

brassmedic · by **brassmedic** » 2021-12-13 9:23 p.m.

[quote="officermayo"]<QUOTE author="Matt K" post_id="165424" time="1639446412" user_id="48">
Why do we need trombones when we already have euphoniums? 😉[/quote]

As trombones predate the euphonium (a late 19th Century invention) you question makes no sense.
</QUOTE>
Contrabass trombone predates the tuba. By a couple centuries, as a matter of fact. So I guess your question makes no sense either.

officermayo · by **officermayo** » 2021-12-13 9:36 p.m.

[quote="brassmedic"]<QUOTE author="officermayo" post_id="165432" time="1639447945" user_id="12380">

As trombones predate the euphonium (a late 19th Century invention) you question makes no sense.[/quote]
Contrabass trombone predates the tuba. By a couple centuries, as a matter of fact. So I guess your question makes no sense either.
</QUOTE>

Hmmm. That's contrary to what I've been taught.

hornbuilder · by **hornbuilder** » 2021-12-13 9:47 p.m.

Sackbuts were made in families, including low F and BBb sizes.

officermayo · by **officermayo** » 2021-12-13 9:49 p.m.

[quote="hornbuilder"]Sackbuts were made in families, including low F and BBb sizes.[/quote]
Ok. Perhaps I should rephrase the question.

What can a modern contrabass trombone do today that cannot be done by a tuba?

hornbuilder · by **hornbuilder** » 2021-12-13 9:50 p.m.

Sound not like a tuba!!

Burgerbob · by **Burgerbob** » 2021-12-13 9:51 p.m.

[quote="hornbuilder"]Sound not like a tuba!![/quote]
:clever:

officermayo · by **officermayo** » 2021-12-13 10:04 p.m.

[quote="Burgerbob"]<QUOTE author="hornbuilder" post_id="165438" time="1639450253" user_id="3205">
Sound not like a tuba!![/quote]
:clever:
</QUOTE>
Sure. WE don't think so, but I'm talking about folks outside of our bubble that don't play trombone (or contrabass).

Burgerbob · by **Burgerbob** » 2021-12-13 10:08 p.m.

I don't think anyone would be confused by contrabass sitting for tuba. It wouldn't sound anything like it. Again, they are not used for the same things, so they don't really need to be compared.

brassmedic · by **brassmedic** » 2021-12-13 10:09 p.m.

[quote="officermayo"]<QUOTE author="brassmedic" post_id="165434" time="1639448585" user_id="4102">

Contrabass trombone predates the tuba. By a couple centuries, as a matter of fact. So I guess your question makes no sense either.[/quote]

Hmmm. That's contrary to what I've been taught.
</QUOTE>
Well, whoever taught you was incorrect.

brassmedic · by **brassmedic** » 2021-12-13 10:16 p.m.

We don't need either one. Different sound palette. You may as well ask why we have the flute when the violin can play the same notes, or for that matter, why we have different instruments at all.

hyperbolica · by **hyperbolica** » 2021-12-13 10:22 p.m.

Movie music. Contra - think Star Wars villains. Tuba - think Close Encounters.

If you put it to your students with examples, just hearing the difference will explain why there are different instruments.

pompatus · by **pompatus** » 2021-12-13 10:27 p.m.

I was once asked a similar question of why we don’t have bass trombone parts covered by a Bb/F tenor. The answer in that instance was “timbre”, but I think it could also apply here.

While a good bass trombonist probably could cover a contra part, the timbre and technical facility might not be what the composer intended; in addition, while the part could be played by a tuba, the sound and timbre, again, may not be what is expected.

officermayo · by **officermayo** » 2021-12-13 10:42 p.m.

[quote="pompatus"]I was once asked a similar question of why we don’t have bass trombone parts covered by a Bb/F tenor. The answer in that instance was “timbre”, but I think it could also apply here.

While a good bass trombonist probably could cover a contra part, the timbre and technical facility might not be what the composer intended; in addition, while the part could be played by a tuba, the sound and timbre, again, may not be what is expected.[/quote]
Thank you.

officermayo · by **officermayo** » 2021-12-13 10:42 p.m.

[quote="hyperbolica"]Movie music. Contra - think Star Wars villains. Tuba - think Close Encounters.

If you put it to your students with examples, just hearing the difference will explain why there are different instruments.[/quote]
That's a great idea. Thanks.

officermayo · by **officermayo** » 2021-12-13 10:45 p.m.

[quote="brassmedic"]<QUOTE author="officermayo" post_id="165435" time="1639449388" user_id="12380">

Hmmm. That's contrary to what I've been taught.[/quote]
Well, whoever taught you was incorrect.
</QUOTE>
The discussion was about contrabass trombones as opposed to sackbuts voiced an octave lower.

I guess I should have been more specific and said contrabass trombones as we know them today, but I didn't think I needed to be that specific. Obviously kids just out of high school at a community college wouldn't ask me about sackbuts.

brassmedic · 2021-12-13 11:40 p.m.

[quote="officermayo"]<QUOTE author="brassmedic" post_id="165443" time="1639451362" user_id="4102">

Well, whoever taught you was incorrect.[/quote]
The discussion was about contrabass trombones as opposed to sackbuts voiced an octave lower.

I guess I should have been more specific and said contrabass trombones as we know them today, but I didn't think I needed to be that specific. Obviously kids just out of high school at a community college wouldn't ask me about sackbuts.
</QUOTE>
That's still incorrect. "Sackbut" is a colloquialism that comes from French. It is not a different instrument. They have always been trombones. The Germans have always called it Posaune, and the Italians have always called it trombone. We incorrectly use the word sackbut now to refer to historical trombones, but that is for the sake of convenience, not accuracy. The trombone didn't ever suddenly become a different instrument; it gradually changed over time, as did all orchestral instruments. The tuba as we know it today is radically different from the 19th century tuba, so if you're going to say the difference between old and new trombones is one of kind rather than degree, then you would have to say the same thing for tubas. I think you're really underestimating community college students if you think they wouldn't be interested in correct information.

As for "having to be specific", you were the one who brought up the subject of trombones predating euphoniums, so yeah it did seem like you wanted to be that specific about the history of the instruments.

Finetales · by **Finetales** » 2021-12-13 11:47 p.m.

There are many good answers to this question in video form on the Internet. Here's a short and sweet one: <YOUTUBE id="YwSzg-HcfFU">~~[media]~~https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=YwSzg-HcfFU</YOUTUBE>

OneTon · by **OneTon** » 2021-12-14 12:14 a.m.

[quote="officermayo"]What would be your answer when asked if we really need contrabass trombones when we already have tubas?[/quote]

A student that asks this question has not only asked a good question but has begun their musical journey. By playing our instrument solo and in ensemble we learn to listen, how to hear.

harrisonreed · by **harrisonreed** » 2021-12-14 12:20 a.m.

[quote="officermayo"]<QUOTE author="OneTon" post_id="165428" time="1639447245" user_id="13549">
A contrabass trombone offers alternative timbres and colors to that of the tuba. This provides opportunities for composers to explore as well as variety for concert attendees listening to legacy pieces.[/quote]
Thanks for a legitimate answer to my question.

I get asked things like this by the community college students with which I work.

As I'm not a bass bone player I turned to the collective knowledge of the group.

Didn't expect wise ass in place of wisdom.
</QUOTE>

The initial answers were wise ass, but not necessarily in a bad way. Answer one wise-ass question with another (I'm guessing your school asked it, when you sought out a contra?) Obviously a contrabass trombone will sound significantly different than a tuba, and will blend with the trombones better. Just because a piano can play all the notes a tuba can doesn't mean you substitute one for the other. No one wants a euphonium instead of a trombone, full-stop, ever, even though the notes are the same. If you gotta deal with budget cuts, so be it. Play euph instead of tenor horn on the solo in Mahler. Or, worst case play the entire symphony on a Casio.

The argument can get as wise-ass as you want, because the whole thing is a spectrum. Do you play conta because your school bought a jinbao, even though the tuba sounds better? Do you have your student play a contra because your school bought a Thein and the score calls for it even though the student can't play the instrument and is a tuba player? The whole premise is a bit....

You either have someone who can play it out you don't. You either have someone who needs to learn it, or you don't. You either care about what the score calls for, or what the forced reality is, or what the end music will sound like. Sometimes all three of those things line up and you get to play a contra. Sometimes the reality or the musical product wins out.

Kbiggs · by **Kbiggs** » 2021-12-14 12:56 a.m.

[quote="officermayo"]Ok. Perhaps I should rephrase the question.

What can a modern contrabass trombone do today that cannot be done by a tuba?[/quote]

Glissando.

Seriously, though, the contrabass trombone is as different to a tuba as a bass trumpet is to a tenor trombone. Same range, different sound.

JohnL · by **JohnL** » 2021-12-14 2:23 a.m.

Seems to me that answering this question might be a good lead-in to discussing the art of orchestration and scoring for both register and timbre. You'll find a lot of wind band pieces where there doesn't seem to have been much consideration of the latter beyond "brass" vs. "woodwinds", particularly in the lower voices.

Also a good chance to trot out a little Wagner and spend a few minutes on the expanded brass section he used for the Ring cycle and how he employed those extra voices (Wagner tuben, bass trumpet, and contrabass trombone) in conjunction with the usual orchestral brass section of trumpets, horns, trombones, and tuba.

You can also get into trumpet vs. cornet. In a lot of wind band music, they're kind of interchangeable - but you will find pieces that have separate parts for trumpet and cornet (often 2 trumpet parts and three cornet parts). When the distinction is made, the cornet parts tend to get more melodic material and the trumpet parts get fanfare-ish bits.

robcat2075 · by **robcat2075** » 2021-12-14 2:38 a.m.

.

[quote="officermayo"]

Didn't expect wise ass in place of wisdom.[/quote]

officermayo... Internet.

Internet... officermayo.

I can tell you two are going to hit it off great!

.

OneTon · by **OneTon** » 2021-12-14 2:57 a.m.

[quote="robcat2075"].

<QUOTE author="officermayo" post_id="165431" time="1639447673" user_id="12380">

Didn't expect wise ass in place of wisdom.[/quote]

officermayo... Internet.

Internet... officermayo.

I can tell you two are going to hit it off great!

.
</QUOTE>

No worries.

Matt_K · by **Matt_K** » 2021-12-14 6:49 a.m.

I can assure you that my intention was not to make a “wise ass” comment. I simply rephrased your question, but up one octave.

As Harrison pointed out, this entirely boils down to orchestration. If something calls for it, you “need” it. If it doesn’t, you don’t.

Tuba and contrabass trombone are simply different in the same was tenor trombone and euphonium are different. But you wouldn’t - generally - have one of those instruments subbing for the other one because they sound different.

So if this is an orchestration question: do you want a sound like a trombone or a tuba? The contrabass trombone is sometimes used for recording because from what I’ve been told, it’s sometimes easier to record it for things it is now more frequently used for such as studio recordings for film in certain contexts.

Another question is why contrabass trombone instead of bass trombone? Many times, the range is playable on bass trombone. There are a lot more similarities to bass & contrabass than tuba and contra. That is a lot more subtle of a question and might help illuminate the distinctions between the tuba.

sacfxdx · by **sacfxdx** » 2021-12-14 7:11 a.m.

[quote="officermayo"]Didn't expect wise ass in place of wisdom.[/quote]

You were surprised by that on this forum? Wise ass is all some folks contribute here.

BGuttman · by **BGuttman** » 2021-12-14 7:16 a.m.

If you go back to the Bad Old Days, we all learned "trombone". Some of us who liked lower parts gravitated to bass trombone. The 1st trombone player sometimes would pull out an alto trombone when something like the Mozart Requiem or Beethoven's 5th Symphony were called up, but the alto was a rare beast. The full range of trombones were used in Moravian Posaunenchor, but they weren't too common.

In opera, Verdi used to call for a valved contra called a "cimbasso" which sounded like a trombone but played as low as a tuba. Wagner called for an "octavposaune" in his Ring operas playing the 4th part.

Lately it seems every kid who plays higher trombone parts wants an alto and every kid who plays lower parts wants a contra. Very little music is written with one in mind. If you show up for Band with an odd trombone you may be asked to leave. If you actually play in a posaunenchor, they probably have the soprano, alto, and contrabass trombones available to lend. If you plan to play in film score music, then (and only then) I think you may need to have a contra.

OneTon · by **OneTon** » 2021-12-14 9:08 a.m.

If you google what “Beethoven Symphonies use trombones” there is a site that follows the trombone entrance into performed music including the names of the trombonists at the time. It runs to popularity and public perception today as then. The instruments that predominate in folk music may often precede acceptance in higher forms.

Jazz with roots in jungle music (Sing Sing Sing, Hawaiian War Chant) would better tolerate tenor voices that can get “barky” and stick out. (King seems to have capitalized on this with the 2b and Duo-Gravis with its “commercial” stigma. An anomaly occurs with Tommy Dorsey and his rather sweet sound. The early swing band programming may have engaged the thrill of the fast reverse early on.) Frank Sinatra might arguably be identified as a major turning point.

The competition in jazz between tuba and tenor or bass trombone, and tuba was natural. The solution for string orchestra accompaniment was to grow the trombone bore, which served to better emulate the sweeter sound of the tuba family. How the tuba won the race in orchestra over a contrabass trombone comes out in music history and the humanities.

Another instrument that appears more often in earlier jazz and jazz recordings is the bass saxophone. None of the saxophones ever seem to find much traction in orchestral composition. As trombonists we can count our blessings that we won a spot in the “seen and not heard” section, as opposed to the “seldom seen and never heard.”

There are a lot of ways to turn a student’s excellent question into a win-win for education.

afugate · by **afugate** » 2021-12-14 11:08 a.m.

Just adding this for reference. (Plus it makes all us bone players proud! :lol: )

<YOUTUBE id="vTDEVUlCClk" list="RDYwSzg-HcfFU">~~[media]~~<LINK_TEXT text="https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vTDEVUl ... wSzg-HcfFU">https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vTDEVUlCClk&list=RDYwSzg-HcfFU&start_radio=1&rv=YwSzg-HcfFU</LINK_TEXT></YOUTUBE>

--Andy in OKC

spencercarran · by **spencercarran** » 2021-12-14 12:08 p.m.

[quote="officermayo"]<QUOTE author="OneTon" post_id="165428" time="1639447245" user_id="13549">
A contrabass trombone offers alternative timbres and colors to that of the tuba. This provides opportunities for composers to explore as well as variety for concert attendees listening to legacy pieces.[/quote]
Thanks for a legitimate answer to my question.

I get asked things like this by the community college students with which I work.

As I'm not a bass bone player I turned to the collective knowledge of the group.

Didn't expect wise ass in place of wisdom.
</QUOTE>

Ask a silly question, get a silly answer :idk:

As others have already explained, contrabass trombone sounds different from a tuba. They're different instruments and neither will ever be a fully satisfactory substitute for the other. In a pinch I might sometimes cover community band tuba parts on my bass trombone; I can hit all the notes of course, but no one will be fooled into thinking it's a tuba.

OneTon · by **OneTon** » 2021-12-14 12:53 p.m.

At the university that I attended, answers to questions were often preceded by jokes or wisecracks. There was no harm intended. It was never personal.

Not that someone never took it personally. Dr. Rozsa offended a tuba player with a politically incorrect reference to a fictitious size of tuba. A student tuba player got up and stalked out of composition class. He was good enough at tuba to play in the local symphony orchestra but was not otherwise well rounded. It was the bad old days.

On the other hand: It wouldn’t hurt any of us to just let this go.

CalgaryTbone · by **CalgaryTbone** » 2021-12-14 1:20 p.m.

[quote="officermayo"]<QUOTE author="Burgerbob" post_id="165439" time="1639450312" user_id="3131">

:clever:[/quote]
Sure. WE don't think so, but I'm talking about folks outside of our bubble that don't play trombone (or contrabass).
</QUOTE>

If you take this idea to an extreme, then everything can be covered by a synthesizer. There are lots of unsophisticated audience members out there, and some that are very astute. I choose to try play in a colourful way, that uses different low brass instruments for music where they are more appropriate to change the sound of the section. I can tell you that other members of my orchestra have commented favourably about hearing us play pieces using alto, small tenors, contrabass, and cimbasso. When our Tuba player used his new cimbasso for an Italian opera the first time, heads turned in the orchestra, and there were tons of favourable comments. Previously, those operas were played with a high tuba, and of course it sounded good in the hands of a good player. Playing on the brighter, more direct cimbasso changes the sound of the whole lower portion of the orchestra. Contrabass trombone is very similar to the cimbasso, and brings a great brilliance to the lower end of the orchestra. Even audiences that don't know the difference often just hear that the performance is exciting.

Jim Scott

Tremozl · by **Tremozl** » 2021-12-14 7:41 p.m.

Variety is the spice of life

OneTon · by **OneTon** » 2021-12-14 8:56 p.m.

[quote="Tremozl"]Variety is the spice of life[/quote]

così ha parlato don Giavanni.

Tremozl · by **Tremozl** » 2021-12-14 10:38 p.m.

[quote="OneTon"]<QUOTE author="Tremozl" post_id="165564" time="1639528900" user_id="4293">
Variety is the spice of life[/quote]

così ha parlato don Giavanni.
</QUOTE>

And the sound of the contrabass trombone is like a guttural roar from the depths of hell 😉

LeTromboniste · by **LeTromboniste** » 2021-12-15 3:11 a.m.

[quote="CalgaryTbone"]I can tell you that other members of my orchestra have commented favourably about hearing us play pieces using alto, small tenors, contrabass, and cimbasso. When our Tuba player used his new cimbasso for an Italian opera the first time, heads turned in the orchestra, and there were tons of favourable comments.[/quote]

Jim, I just woke up and reading your comment, I briefly wondered "wow what piece are they playing where they use altos, small tenors, contrabass and cimbasso together?!"

:lol:

Chatname · by **Chatname** » 2021-12-15 3:41 a.m.

With Gurre lieder you’d be pretty close! Except for the cimbasso, of course. Great piece as a trombone player (any size) by the way!

EdwardSolomon · by **EdwardSolomon** » 2021-12-15 7:44 a.m.

I use the contrabass trombone in my symphonic brass ensemble alongside two tenor trombones and one bass trombone. As I write the arrangements for the ensemble, I am free to deploy forces as I see fit. I have taken the standard symphonic brass ensemble comprising 6 trumpets (including B flat piccolo and E flat trumpets, and flugelhorn), 4 French horns, 2 tenor trombones, 1 bass trombone, 1 euphonium, 2 tubas and adapted it to include 1 contrabass trombone and 1 brass band baritone. The addition of these two instruments permits the use of the trombones entirely without the support of the tubas and equally allows the flugelhorn, baritone, euphonium, bass and contrabass tubas to act on their own as a unit without the need to add trombones or horns. The rationale for including the contrabass trombone is purely one of colour, as it is an alternative voice to the contrabass tuba in the lowest reaches of the ensemble. My arrangements take full advantage of this, permitting contrasting voices to be used in alternation and allowing the tubas some much-needed rests.

BGuttman · by **BGuttman** » 2021-12-15 8:30 a.m.

Officermayo, you can play the same notes on a tuba, cimbasso, contrabass trombone, contrabassoon, contrabass clarinet, bass saxophone, and string bass (or bass gee-tar). Each has its own sound. Nobody is suggesting replacing a string bass with a contrabassoon (although the string bass replaced the tuba in Jazz back in the 1920s). Contrabass trombones have some use, but it's pretty rare. I'd hate to see a kid specialize in just that; much like no kid only plays contrabassoon -- they all play bassoon and someone gets to play the contra when needed.

officermayo · by **officermayo** » 2021-12-15 3:23 p.m.

[quote="BGuttman"]I'd hate to see a kid specialize in just that; much like no kid only plays contrabassoon -- they all play bassoon and someone gets to play the contra when needed.[/quote]
That's not why I asked for ideas.

Some kids asked me the question I posed in the OP, and having no experience with the contrbass, I had no answer for them. I've played in a few symphonies in my early career but never saw one being used.

Thanks to all who gave serious answers.

OneTon · by **OneTon** » 2021-12-15 4:41 p.m.

[quote="officermayo"]<QUOTE author="BGuttman" post_id="165607" time="1639575011" user_id="53">
I'd hate to see a kid specialize in just that; much like no kid only plays contrabassoon -- they all play bassoon and someone gets to play the contra when needed.[/quote]
That's not why I asked for ideas.

Some kids asked me the question I posed in the OP, and having no experience with the contrbass, I had no answer for them. I've played in a few symphonies in my early career but never saw one being used.

Thanks to all who gave serious answers.
</QUOTE>

We played Brahm’s 4th and Beethoven’s 6th. There were no contrabass’ called for. The only contrabass that I ever saw was in for repair.

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Rationale For Contras