Trombone rotors

TheFilthOfFrank · by **TheFilthOfFrank** » 2021-12-27 3:08 p.m.

What's the strangest rotor designs you've ever seen? Pro's and Con's?

If you want to share your custom stuff I'll be glad to see it!

Matt_K · by **Matt_K** » 2021-12-27 3:50 p.m.

Look up pictures of the Holton "Monster" valve here:

https://trombonechat.com/viewtopic.php?t=5910

Quite the design!

TheFilthOfFrank · by **TheFilthOfFrank** » 2021-12-27 3:55 p.m.

That is insane. I feel my pockets getting lighter thinking about all the oil that it would require!

Arvopart17 · by **Arvopart17** » 2021-12-27 4:24 p.m.

This one befuddles me every time I look at it. Looks like you articulate the second rotor with your index finger near the leadpipe:

https://houghtonhorns.com/shop/thein-eb-alto/

TheFilthOfFrank · by **TheFilthOfFrank** » 2021-12-27 4:26 p.m.

That's quite confusing and expensive.

SwissTbone · by **SwissTbone** » 2021-12-27 4:31 p.m.

The best valve may be... no valve? Look at this interesting concept:

~~[url]~~https://fb.watch/a9WyBLRz40/

TheFilthOfFrank · by **TheFilthOfFrank** » 2021-12-27 4:40 p.m.

It would be the most free blowing! :clever:

harrisonreed · by **harrisonreed** » 2021-12-27 11:26 p.m.

[quote="TheFilthOfFrank"]It would be the most free blowing! :clever:[/quote]

We discussed this one! Girls and guys with long hair, BEWARE! <EMOJI seq="1f602" tseq="1f602">😂</EMOJI>

TheFilthOfFrank · by **TheFilthOfFrank** » 2021-12-27 11:49 p.m.

I need to be beware myself then! I do happen to have long hair. :D

Kbiggs · by **Kbiggs** » 2021-12-28 12:53 p.m.

[quote="Matt K"]Look up pictures of the Holton "Monster" valve here:

https://trombonechat.com/viewtopic.php?t=5910

Quite the design![/quote]

I keep looking at the pics, and I can’t quite figure out how the tubes/ports work. Is it two tubes that overlay each other in an “X” pattern?

Also, I remember seeing a Yamaha tenor that had an unusual valve, king of like a piston that rotated like a rotor. I can’t find pics of it on the interwebs, but I thought it was discussed here on TC or perhaps the old TF.

Matt_K · by **Matt_K** » 2021-12-28 1:05 p.m.

That's the Yamaha V valve. Only available in Japan, someone here had one for sale and posted some cool pictures of it. I'm working or I'd find it.

WilliamLang · by **WilliamLang** » 2021-12-28 1:05 p.m.

]the yamaha valve is called their V-valve, and is only sold in japan i believe. a few made it over to North America, and I actually got one last summer, which is now my main horn. the valve does seem exactly like a rotating piston.

Neo_Bri · by **Neo_Bri** » 2021-12-28 1:08 p.m.

[quote="Matt K"]Look up pictures of the Holton "Monster" valve here:

https://trombonechat.com/viewtopic.php?t=5910

Quite the design![/quote]

If anyone is interested in the Monster Valve, I have a Holton with one for sale. You can contact me if interested.

In the meantime, I don't understand why Yamaha never brought over the V-Valve. When I was in Japan I saw one in a music store in Akihabara and couldn't figure it out. But I wanted to try it.

hornbuilder · by **hornbuilder** » 2021-12-28 4:03 p.m.

The Monster is a 3 port rotor. The main port is S shaped, with 2 straight ports either side of the main port.

sstelmack · by **sstelmack** » 2021-12-28 5:07 p.m.

[quote="harrisonreed"]<QUOTE author="TheFilthOfFrank" post_id="166643" time="1640641245" user_id="14483">
It would be the most free blowing! :clever:[/quote]

We discussed this one! Girls and guys with long hair, BEWARE! <EMOJI seq="1f602" tseq="1f602">😂</EMOJI>
</QUOTE>

I can barely use my axial valve because my beard gets stuck in it. It is part of the reason I ordered the dual bore rotor on my shires I'm waiting for.

harrisonreed · by **harrisonreed** » 2021-12-28 6:58 p.m.

[quote="Neo Bri"]<QUOTE author="Matt K" post_id="166634" time="1640638212" user_id="48">
Look up pictures of the Holton "Monster" valve here:

https://trombonechat.com/viewtopic.php?t=5910

Quite the design![/quote]

If anyone is interested in the Monster Valve, I have a Holton with one for sale. You can contact me if interested.

In the meantime, I don't understand why Yamaha never brought over the V-Valve. When I was in Japan I saw one in a music store in Akihabara and couldn't figure it out. But I wanted to try it.
</QUOTE>

It's not that great. I tried the V-valve in the Yamaha exhibition store. They have hand picked instruments from the Tokyo symphony players out to try (these get picked out whenever the musicians are in the shop). So it was supposedly the best example of this instrument, but it was not really all that great. Their older models with the loopy wrap and old valve were great though!

Crazy4Tbone86 · by **Crazy4Tbone86** » 2021-12-29 2:21 p.m.

[quote="WilliamLang"]]the yamaha valve is called their V-valve, and is only sold in japan i believe. a few made it over to North America, and I actually got one last summer, which is now my main horn. the valve does seem exactly like a rotating piston.[/quote]

William,

Knowing how well you play, that’s a pretty strong endorsement of the V-valve!

WilliamLang · by **WilliamLang** » 2021-12-29 2:36 p.m.

Thanks Brian!

For some backstory - since the V-Valve is still pretty strange.

I was playing on a vintage Shires (like it was #000445) with a thayer valve. That valve was built like one of those old Hondas that have 300,000 miles on them and never needed upkeep. Seriously never had a problem with it or leaks even once in the almost 20 years I played it!

I went on my first mouthpiece search last summer. I figured that after all this time it was finally time to check if it was the equipment holding me back vs. personal weakness. Around the same time I noticed a Yamaha 882V for sale, and the price was good so I took a chance on it.

I tried it out for one day sided by side and made an immediate switch to the Yamaha. I've tried out other horns at conferences before from all the major makers, and other than one Elkhart Conn I tried at Dillons once, and one Thein Tenor (the Universal II I think) at ITF Redwoods, this Yamaha really stuck out to me as being one of the most interesting horns I've ever played on.

The valve plays tight, maybe more so than a rotor, and much differently than the thayer. The feedback while playing the horn felt a little boring, honestly, and like there wasn't much character. But when I played it for people and listened the recordings, the sound was just massively cleaner. Everyone and myself preferred the V-valve sound overall when listening in person or blind. There was some split on the low range between the Thayer and V-valve, but I think I've ironed that out with practice and by "teaching" the horn to play closer to the way I want.

I've also compared the V-valve to a few other Yamahas, and for me it wasn't even close. The best f-attacment I found was a large rotor and closed wrap set up like Finlayson's horn. But that to me sacrificed some clarity for a type of wideness, and in the work I do (exposed solo and chamber playing) clarity is the first metric in my mind.

Crazy4Tbone86 · by **Crazy4Tbone86** » 2021-12-29 7:10 p.m.

Always find it fascinating when player and audience hear things completely differently. Always make me wonder about all those horns that I tried and did not sound interesting to me. Did one of those instruments have a magical sizzle and I just didn’t hear it?

William, glad you were able to find an instrument that allows you to refine your craft!

elmsandr · by **elmsandr** » 2021-12-29 10:02 p.m.

[quote="hornbuilder"]The Monster is a 3 port rotor. The main port is S shaped, with 2 straight ports either side of the main port.[/quote]

Tada, rough views of the wrap and the valve core of a Monster.

<ATTACHMENT filename="69B07E32-42DE-40DB-A398-85C79A791838.jpeg" index="0">~~[attachment=0]~~69B07E32-42DE-40DB-A398-85C79A791838.jpeg</ATTACHMENT>

<ATTACHMENT filename="C000776E-A0AC-46BB-BA28-19F37BA4971F.jpeg" index="1">~~[attachment=1]~~C000776E-A0AC-46BB-BA28-19F37BA4971F.jpeg</ATTACHMENT>

Side note, if anybody has another Monster valve they would part out for cheap; I have a real bad idea that I want to try with another one….

Cheers,

Andy

Kbiggs · 2021-12-29 11:00 p.m.

[quote="elmsandr"]

Tada, rough views of the wrap and the valve core of a Monster.
[/quote]

Thanks for the pics! It’s fascinating the things people have designed and built for the trombone.

[quote="elmsandr"]

Side note, if anybody has another Monster valve they would part out for cheap; I have a real bad idea that I want to try with another one….

Cheers,

Andy[/quote]

You know what they say about bad ideas, right?

Crazy4Tbone86 · by **Crazy4Tbone86** » 2021-12-29 11:23 p.m.

I always got excited when I went to trombone conventions and I saw the Holton TR140 with the monster valve. Then I would play it and be heartbroken. It never lived up to the hype for me. My theory is that they kept it a .562 bore valve but simply moved it up the gooseneck. If the gooseneck is tapered properly, the monster valve should work if the bore was in the high .580s or the low .590s, but I don't think the bore is that big.

I have asked others on TromboneChat to send me the bore size of the F-attachment tubing before with no success. I will try again....does anyone know what the bore size of the monster valve tubing is?

elmsandr · by **elmsandr** » 2021-12-31 12:38 p.m.

[quote="Crazy4Tbone86"]I always got excited when I went to trombone conventions and I saw the Holton TR140 with the monster valve. Then I would play it and be heartbroken. It never lived up to the hype for me. My theory is that they kept it a .562 bore valve but simply moved it up the gooseneck. If the gooseneck is tapered properly, the monster valve should work if the bore was in the high .580s or the low .590s, but I don't think the bore is that big.

I have asked others on TromboneChat to send me the bore size of the F-attachment tubing before with no success. I will try again....does anyone know what the bore size of the monster valve tubing is?[/quote]
It's like .570+ I forget the exact last decimal place, I've posted it here before.

The funny thing for me is that the F side is awesome, it is the Bb side that stinks.

Cheers,

Andy

Crazy4Tbone86 · by **Crazy4Tbone86** » 2021-12-31 3:28 p.m.

Thanks Andy! Even though it is larger than .562, I think it should probably be a little larger. Isn't the valve right up against the tuning slide? I imagine the tuning slide is in the .593 - .595 range.

It makes sense that the F side plays better.....the two ports used for the engaged side of the valve are rather straight. I would speculate that the S-bend in the center (non engaged) port adds considerable resistance. I have heard that some of the earlier designs of the axial valve had the same problem.....the F side was more free blowing than the disengaged side.

I have always wanted to get my hands on a monster valve. It would be fun to experiment and shift the valve lower on the gooseneck area. Ah, but these experiments can get costly very quickly!

whitbey · by **whitbey** » 2021-12-31 5:52 p.m.

I have had and played several large valves. The big mass on the horn just dampens the sound.

I like Edwards CR valve. Open blow, not a lot of mass, and the bracing really matters.

Burgerbob · by **Burgerbob** » 2022-01-01 12:45 a.m.

<IMGUR id="a/MnogAkD">~~[media]~~https://imgur.com/a/MnogAkD</IMGUR>

Interesting axial interpretation from a facebook user-

<LINK_TEXT text="https://www.facebook.com/groups/basstro ... 998892989/">https://www.facebook.com/groups/basstrombone/posts/4778211998892989/</LINK_TEXT>

WilliamLang · by **WilliamLang** » 2022-01-01 1:41 a.m.

whatever happened to that crazy valve idea that moved the entire bell section of the horn over?

Burgerbob · by **Burgerbob** » 2022-01-01 1:47 a.m.

[quote="WilliamLang"]whatever happened to that crazy valve idea that moved the entire bell section of the horn over?[/quote]

Posted above by swisstbone

WilliamLang · by **WilliamLang** » 2022-01-01 1:49 a.m.

ahhh well, nevertheless.... happy new years all!

harrisonreed · by **harrisonreed** » 2022-01-01 3:01 a.m.

Not a rotor, but my idea for a valve section with the longest possible pull:

<ATTACHMENT filename="DSC_0384.JPG" index="0">~~[attachment=0]~~DSC_0384.JPG</ATTACHMENT>

OneTon · by **OneTon** » 2022-01-01 8:12 a.m.

[quote="harrisonreed"]Not a rotor, but my idea for a valve section with the longest possible pull:
[/quote]

Kanstul did a somewhat similar modular d valve on the Kanstul 1670 bass trombone. Bryant Byers shows one on YouTube as the “Vagrant Trombone.” I think it meets the weird stipulation. His criticism is that the module is fragile and the d valve linkage suffers from Euler buckling (instability) (my interpretation). Kanstul may have retired-fitted a sleeve on the linkage to stiffen the linkage.

Does the bell side top tube need to come into the valve on the player’s side of the two center attachment tubes to make the bottom right view match the upper left?

P.S.: I already know that physicists may not like the engineering term “buckling.” I respectfully submit that debate belongs in another forum.

meine · by **meine** » 2022-01-01 10:27 a.m.

I once had a Bach 50BL with custom valves made by a french tec. They were crazy! Open as Thayers, working like Hagmanns. I‘ve never seen some like them.

Kbiggs · by **Kbiggs** » 2022-01-01 12:44 p.m.

[quote="meine"]I once had a Bach 50BL with custom valves made by a french tec. They were crazy! Open as Thayers, working like Hagmanns. I‘ve never seen some like them.[/quote]

Those look similar to the Shires TruBore valves. Still, an interesting and nice design and execution.

Crazy4Tbone86 · by **Crazy4Tbone86** » 2022-01-01 1:59 p.m.

[quote="meine"]I once had a Bach 50BL with custom valves made by a french tec. They were crazy! Open as Thayers, working like Hagmanns. I‘ve never seen some like them.[/quote]

Very Interesting design! I believe Todd Clontz was working on a similar design back in the 1990s. He has shown me pieces of valves and casings that look very much like that.

On the positive side, there is a straight-through design in the non-engaged position. That seems superior to the S twist that was in the monster valve. It also appears that the bumpers can be individually adjusted....which is awesome!

On the negative side, those valves look very heavy. So much weight could deaden the response of the horn and place a lot of wear and tear on the left hand.

How did those valves play? I notice that you speak about the instrument in past tense.

meine · by **meine** » 2022-01-01 2:16 p.m.

Yes, these valves were heavy. Actually the whole trombone was out of balance having most of the weight in the valve section. A hand support is a must. But the sound was crazy! Big and dark, but the trombone was ok in terms of response.

The straight-through design was super, but too much for me, almost like thayers and that is too open for me. It needed more air than I could offer.

The bumpers were individually adjustable, which was a big pro. I found so many trombones playing bad just because the valves aren‘t in the correct position.

I owned it for some time and sold it on to Germany last year. I guess the new owner has a lot of fun with it<EMOJI seq="1f604" tseq="1f604">😄</EMOJI>

harrisonreed · by **harrisonreed** » 2022-01-01 6:35 p.m.

[quote="meine"]I once had a Bach 50BL with custom valves made by a french tec. They were crazy! Open as Thayers, working like Hagmanns. I‘ve never seen some like them.[/quote]

This is the Minick valve with the wrap ported at a slightly different angle. The Brass Ark vintage horn uses the same design, but with the original porting, as built by Meinlschmidt (spelling?)

The CL2000 shares a lot on common with it superficially.

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