Replacing early 90s Bach 42BO valve
- bkessler
- Posts: 51
- Joined: Oct 23, 2019
Hi all,
I'm looking for advice on replacing the valve/trigger set up on an early 90s Bach 42BO. I like pretty much everything about the horn, but the valve has always been clunky and stuffy. I am able to get it working fairly well for short periods of time with lots of lube, but even when it's working the best it can, it sounds and feels stuffy, and is a bit of a pain to use.
After reading lots of threads, it looks like a good route to go might be an Instrument Innovations (Olsen) valve, so I was planning on doing that, but I'm wondering what route to go for the trigger itself and the linkages. Should I stick with the original linkages? Replace them with the ones Instrument Innovations makes? What about the lever assembly? Has anyone gotten one of these from Instrument Innovations?
I'm just thinking that if I replace the valve, I might want to replace the linkages and/or lever assembly at the same time.
Many thanks!
Attaching pictures of the current setup for reference.
I'm looking for advice on replacing the valve/trigger set up on an early 90s Bach 42BO. I like pretty much everything about the horn, but the valve has always been clunky and stuffy. I am able to get it working fairly well for short periods of time with lots of lube, but even when it's working the best it can, it sounds and feels stuffy, and is a bit of a pain to use.
After reading lots of threads, it looks like a good route to go might be an Instrument Innovations (Olsen) valve, so I was planning on doing that, but I'm wondering what route to go for the trigger itself and the linkages. Should I stick with the original linkages? Replace them with the ones Instrument Innovations makes? What about the lever assembly? Has anyone gotten one of these from Instrument Innovations?
I'm just thinking that if I replace the valve, I might want to replace the linkages and/or lever assembly at the same time.
Many thanks!
Attaching pictures of the current setup for reference.
- Burgerbob
- Posts: 6327
- Joined: Apr 23, 2018
If you get the Olsen rotor, it'll be best to use their lever and linkages. They are very good.
- Crazy4Tbone86
- Posts: 1654
- Joined: Jan 14, 2020
The Bach 42 open wrap design has so many flaws that I am very surprised that Conn/Selmer has stuck with it for so many years. The ports in the valve are undersized and the S-bend is from a Bach 50 valve section. In theory, the bore of the valve section is .562 inch. However, at the S-bend, the bore expands out to .593 and then contracts to about .550 when it re-enters the rotor. What a mess!
I highly recommend the Olsen rotor in the 90/90 degree form. Every Bach that I have fitted with that valve has turned out fantastic. There are some unique things about refitting a Bach 42 with the Olsen rotor. For example: the gooseneck is shorter because the valve is wider. Thus, the length and taper of the gooseneck must be custom-made.
I DO NOT recommend that you use the Instrument Innovations valve lever because that is specifically designed for Mike Olsen’s Axial valve….not the rotor. Whenever I buy a lever from Mike, he (or his wife) always says. “You are aware that this lever only works on the axial valve, aren’t you?”
I highly recommend the Olsen rotor in the 90/90 degree form. Every Bach that I have fitted with that valve has turned out fantastic. There are some unique things about refitting a Bach 42 with the Olsen rotor. For example: the gooseneck is shorter because the valve is wider. Thus, the length and taper of the gooseneck must be custom-made.
I DO NOT recommend that you use the Instrument Innovations valve lever because that is specifically designed for Mike Olsen’s Axial valve….not the rotor. Whenever I buy a lever from Mike, he (or his wife) always says. “You are aware that this lever only works on the axial valve, aren’t you?”
- Crazy4Tbone86
- Posts: 1654
- Joined: Jan 14, 2020
Interesting……I just went to the Instrument Innovations website and there is a post stating that they are working on a lever for their rotary valve. The date of the post is November 20, 2020 with no updates.
BurgerBob….have you seen an Instrument Innovations lever for their rotor? I have not heard anything about it. The last time I spoke with Mike was in late September 2021, and he usually likes to tell me any new products he is offering.
BurgerBob….have you seen an Instrument Innovations lever for their rotor? I have not heard anything about it. The last time I spoke with Mike was in late September 2021, and he usually likes to tell me any new products he is offering.
- Burgerbob
- Posts: 6327
- Joined: Apr 23, 2018
[quote="Crazy4Tbone86"]
BurgerBob….have you seen an Instrument Innovations lever for their rotor? I have not heard anything about it. The last time I spoke with Mike was in late September 2021, and he usually likes to tell me any new products he is offering.[/quote]
No, you're right. I have their levers... on my axial horn.
BurgerBob….have you seen an Instrument Innovations lever for their rotor? I have not heard anything about it. The last time I spoke with Mike was in late September 2021, and he usually likes to tell me any new products he is offering.[/quote]
No, you're right. I have their levers... on my axial horn.
- Crazy4Tbone86
- Posts: 1654
- Joined: Jan 14, 2020
Still......I am excited to see what kind of lever they produce for rotors. I imagine that it will have multiple lengths and angles that can be adjusted.
- brassmedic
- Posts: 1447
- Joined: Dec 14, 2018
[quote="Crazy4Tbone86"]the S-bend is from a Bach 50 valve section.[/quote]
You sure about that? That part is listed in the catalog as being the same part for 42B and 36B, but the 50B has a different part number. If they used the same part, it would be the same part number.
You sure about that? That part is listed in the catalog as being the same part for 42B and 36B, but the 50B has a different part number. If they used the same part, it would be the same part number.
- Burgerbob
- Posts: 6327
- Joined: Apr 23, 2018
[quote="brassmedic"]<QUOTE author="Crazy4Tbone86" post_id="166745" time="1640742089" user_id="8392">
the S-bend is from a Bach 50 valve section.[/quote]
You sure about that? That part is listed in the catalog as being the same part for 42B and 36B, but the 50B has a different part number. If they used the same part, it would be the same part number.
</QUOTE>
I've heard this too, it's the offsets for the 2nd valve on the 50B2.
the S-bend is from a Bach 50 valve section.[/quote]
You sure about that? That part is listed in the catalog as being the same part for 42B and 36B, but the 50B has a different part number. If they used the same part, it would be the same part number.
</QUOTE>
I've heard this too, it's the offsets for the 2nd valve on the 50B2.
- brassmedic
- Posts: 1447
- Joined: Dec 14, 2018
[quote="Burgerbob"]<QUOTE author="brassmedic" post_id="166765" time="1640760624" user_id="4102">
You sure about that? That part is listed in the catalog as being the same part for 42B and 36B, but the 50B has a different part number. If they used the same part, it would be the same part number.[/quote]
I've heard this too, it's the offsets for the 2nd valve on the 50B2.
</QUOTE>
Well that would mean the 36B had a .596 bore S bend in the valve. I'm just...skeptical.
You sure about that? That part is listed in the catalog as being the same part for 42B and 36B, but the 50B has a different part number. If they used the same part, it would be the same part number.[/quote]
I've heard this too, it's the offsets for the 2nd valve on the 50B2.
</QUOTE>
Well that would mean the 36B had a .596 bore S bend in the valve. I'm just...skeptical.
- Burgerbob
- Posts: 6327
- Joined: Apr 23, 2018
[quote="brassmedic"]<QUOTE author="Burgerbob" post_id="166766" time="1640761793" user_id="3131">
I've heard this too, it's the offsets for the 2nd valve on the 50B2.[/quote]
Well that would mean the 36B had a .596 bore S bend in the valve. I'm just...skeptical.
</QUOTE>
Would you really be surprised? I think you can see it with the naked eyeball on the BO wraps, it's a big part next to all those .562 bends.
I've heard this too, it's the offsets for the 2nd valve on the 50B2.[/quote]
Well that would mean the 36B had a .596 bore S bend in the valve. I'm just...skeptical.
</QUOTE>
Would you really be surprised? I think you can see it with the naked eyeball on the BO wraps, it's a big part next to all those .562 bends.
- Crazy4Tbone86
- Posts: 1654
- Joined: Jan 14, 2020
Yes, the S-bends that I have pulled off Bach 42 and 36 bells have measured in the low .590s. I’ve got a bin of those S-bends in my parts drawer. I occasionally use them as offset tubing for bass trombone wraps.
Then again, Bach could have changed their parts in recent years. I don’t think I have seen many of the open wrap rotors on Bachs made in recent years (the last 7-8 years or so). On the newer horns, I see more of the Hagmanns, Infinity, Open-Flow and after market valve set ups.
Then again, Bach could have changed their parts in recent years. I don’t think I have seen many of the open wrap rotors on Bachs made in recent years (the last 7-8 years or so). On the newer horns, I see more of the Hagmanns, Infinity, Open-Flow and after market valve set ups.
- Kbiggs
- Posts: 1768
- Joined: Mar 24, 2018
I recently had Olsen valves put onto my 42B. I also have a Thayer valve, which I played for many years, but I prefer the Olsen valve. I’m sure your tech could either fabricate new linkage parts to fit an Olsen valve, or modify existing parts. I believe mine has a modified Allied or perhaps Shires linkage, whatever was easiest for my tech to find.
- brassmedic
- Posts: 1447
- Joined: Dec 14, 2018
[quote="Burgerbob"]<QUOTE author="brassmedic" post_id="166771" time="1640766108" user_id="4102">
Well that would mean the 36B had a .596 bore S bend in the valve. I'm just...skeptical.[/quote]
Would you really be surprised? I think you can see it with the naked eyeball on the BO wraps, it's a big part next to all those .562 bends.
</QUOTE>
Bach certainly does use the same part on multiple instruments, but if that's the case, why would it have a different part number?
Well that would mean the 36B had a .596 bore S bend in the valve. I'm just...skeptical.[/quote]
Would you really be surprised? I think you can see it with the naked eyeball on the BO wraps, it's a big part next to all those .562 bends.
</QUOTE>
Bach certainly does use the same part on multiple instruments, but if that's the case, why would it have a different part number?
- Burgerbob
- Posts: 6327
- Joined: Apr 23, 2018
Dunno. I wouldn't put it past them to use the 50B2 offset at first, then change the part slightly... but not to the right ID to match the rest of the valve section.
- brassmedic
- Posts: 1447
- Joined: Dec 14, 2018
Well I measured a couple of 42 valve sections and it definitely is a larger diameter than the other parts. Thanks for the interesting fact! Never knew that.
- bkessler
- Posts: 51
- Joined: Oct 23, 2019
Thanks for all the info, everyone. I guess I should ask for advice.
This horn doesn't get as much use as my others. When I am using my 42, I mostly play 1st parts, so I'm not using my trigger all that much. That said, when I do use it, it drives me a bit crazy. I also primarily teach, and it would be nice to have an F-attachment horn that works well all the time. Do you all think it's worth swapping out the valve? What about the lever and/or the linkages?
@Crazy4Tbone86, am I correct in assuming you'd recommend against getting a 90/180 valve for my setup, and would instead recommend me getting a 90/90 then having my tech (Kevin Powers) fabricate the parts to make that setup work? I know this is probably an impossible question to answer, but do you think it's worth it even if I don't use the valve that much? (I'm assuming this will be a fair amount more expensive than just slotting in a 90/180)
Either way, it sounds like I will ask Mike & Kim Olsen what the state of the lever for the rotors is. I'm guessing it makes most sense for me to swap out everything at once, so if their lever for rotors is on the near horizon, maybe I'll give it a go.
Thanks again.
This horn doesn't get as much use as my others. When I am using my 42, I mostly play 1st parts, so I'm not using my trigger all that much. That said, when I do use it, it drives me a bit crazy. I also primarily teach, and it would be nice to have an F-attachment horn that works well all the time. Do you all think it's worth swapping out the valve? What about the lever and/or the linkages?
@Crazy4Tbone86, am I correct in assuming you'd recommend against getting a 90/180 valve for my setup, and would instead recommend me getting a 90/90 then having my tech (Kevin Powers) fabricate the parts to make that setup work? I know this is probably an impossible question to answer, but do you think it's worth it even if I don't use the valve that much? (I'm assuming this will be a fair amount more expensive than just slotting in a 90/180)
Either way, it sounds like I will ask Mike & Kim Olsen what the state of the lever for the rotors is. I'm guessing it makes most sense for me to swap out everything at once, so if their lever for rotors is on the near horizon, maybe I'll give it a go.
Thanks again.
- ithinknot
- Posts: 1339
- Joined: Jul 24, 2020
[quote="brassmedic"]<QUOTE author="Burgerbob" post_id="166772" time="1640767005" user_id="3131">
Would you really be surprised? I think you can see it with the naked eyeball on the BO wraps, it's a big part next to all those .562 bends.[/quote]
Bach certainly does use the same part on multiple instruments, but if that's the case, why would it have a different part number?
</QUOTE>
Trimmed to a different length and thrown in a different bucket?
Would you really be surprised? I think you can see it with the naked eyeball on the BO wraps, it's a big part next to all those .562 bends.[/quote]
Bach certainly does use the same part on multiple instruments, but if that's the case, why would it have a different part number?
</QUOTE>
Trimmed to a different length and thrown in a different bucket?
- Crazy4Tbone86
- Posts: 1654
- Joined: Jan 14, 2020
bkessler,
Since the turning radius is so large on the 180 side of the Olsen 90/180 rotary valves, there is is probably very little difference between the 90/90 and 90/180 setups. I prefer the 90/90 valves because I have built many bell sections with those valves. I simply like them because I feel like I have more wrap options with that valve. I’m sure there are creative techs out there that can figure out several different wrap options with the 90/180 valve.
Since the turning radius is so large on the 180 side of the Olsen 90/180 rotary valves, there is is probably very little difference between the 90/90 and 90/180 setups. I prefer the 90/90 valves because I have built many bell sections with those valves. I simply like them because I feel like I have more wrap options with that valve. I’m sure there are creative techs out there that can figure out several different wrap options with the 90/180 valve.
- hornbuilder
- Posts: 1384
- Joined: May 02, 2018
Having read the comment above, and checking the C-S parts website (to see that yes, they are different parts numbers) I was skeptical about the info presented.
Having said that...
I have a 36BO in the shop at present for an M&W valve section conversion. Also a 42BO section from a previous conversion. I pulled the factory sections apart and can confirm that it is a bass part used on both.
<EMOJI seq="1f926" tseq="1f926">🤦</EMOJI>
Having said that...
I have a 36BO in the shop at present for an M&W valve section conversion. Also a 42BO section from a previous conversion. I pulled the factory sections apart and can confirm that it is a bass part used on both.
<EMOJI seq="1f926" tseq="1f926">🤦</EMOJI>
- Crazy4Tbone86
- Posts: 1654
- Joined: Jan 14, 2020
About 15 years ago, I was also a skeptic about the S-bend until someone pointed it out to me. Now....whenever I see a 42 or 36 factory open wrap, my eyes immediately focus on that S-bend because it is visibly larger than all the tubing around it!
It is just like getting a brand new car and you get a scratch in the paint. Everytime you walk by the car....all you see is the scratch!
It is just like getting a brand new car and you get a scratch in the paint. Everytime you walk by the car....all you see is the scratch!
- Boneaphone
- Posts: 14
- Joined: Sep 05, 2018
I have a 1992 42BO and replaced the valve with an Olsen rotor 90/180 valve in 2020. My tech used the original lever and custom fit a mini ball linkage. The concerns about the 180 turn inside the rotor compared to the same turn inside the standard Bach rotor are unwarranted considering the Olsen rotor has a broader 180 turn and the ports are larger. I don't notice any stuffiness when using the F section. What you will notice is that the horn will feel like a new, better horn even when not using the F section which is the vast majority of time you're playing it. My horn plays darker, more centered, and with better articulations. The vented rotor also makes transitioning to and from F section on legato passages much smoother.
- bkessler
- Posts: 51
- Joined: Oct 23, 2019
Boneaphone ... that's great to know. Thanks so much. Now if I can just get ahold of them. I've tried the contact form a couple of times, but haven't heard anything back yet. I'm also very curious to see if they have come up with their own trigger/linkage setup for the rotors.
- Elow
- Posts: 1924
- Joined: Mar 02, 2020
[quote="bkessler"]Boneaphone ... that's great to know. Thanks so much. Now if I can just get ahold of them. I've tried the contact form a couple of times, but haven't heard anything back yet. I'm also very curious to see if they have come up with their own trigger/linkage setup for the rotors.[/quote]
It’s easier to just email them, i believe their email is listed on the site
It’s easier to just email them, i believe their email is listed on the site
- pedrombon
- Posts: 417
- Joined: Apr 11, 2018
[quote="bkessler"]Boneaphone ... that's great to know. Thanks so much. Now if I can just get ahold of them. I've tried the contact form a couple of times, but haven't heard anything back yet. I'm also very curious to see if they have come up with their own trigger/linkage setup for the rotors.[/quote]
You can easily contact them through Facebook Messenger.
You can easily contact them through Facebook Messenger.
- bkessler
- Posts: 51
- Joined: Oct 23, 2019
Thanks Elow and pedrombon. I didn't see their email anywhere, so I'll try the Facebook messenger route. If that doesn't work, it looks like there's a phone # too.
- bkessler
- Posts: 51
- Joined: Oct 23, 2019
Just an update: got the rotor plus Instrument Innovation's new F rotor trigger assembly installed by Kevin Powers. What a fantastic upgrade. The horn plays so much better overall, and the F side is way less stuffy than it used to be. The new trigger mechanism is nice. Minibals, and an adjustment you can make where it's mounted that lets you change thumb position/stroke length. Since I think there aren't too many of the new trigger mechanisms out in the wild, I'll post some photos as well.
- bkessler
- Posts: 51
- Joined: Oct 23, 2019
Photos of the new trigger mechanism:
<ATTACHMENT filename="IMG_9379.JPG" index="0">[attachment=0]IMG_9379.JPG</ATTACHMENT><ATTACHMENT filename="IMG_9381.JPG" index="2">[attachment=2]IMG_9381.JPG</ATTACHMENT><ATTACHMENT filename="IMG_9380.JPG" index="1">[attachment=1]IMG_9380.JPG</ATTACHMENT><ATTACHMENT filename="IMG_9382.JPG" index="3">[attachment=3]IMG_9382.JPG</ATTACHMENT><ATTACHMENT filename="IMG_9383.JPG" index="4">[attachment=4]IMG_9383.JPG</ATTACHMENT>
<ATTACHMENT filename="IMG_9379.JPG" index="0">
- brassmedic
- Posts: 1447
- Joined: Dec 14, 2018
I just wish techs would trim the neckpipe to accommodate the larger valve rather than put the receiver in the wrong place.
- LIBrassCo
- Posts: 585
- Joined: Feb 24, 2019
[quote="brassmedic"]I just wish techs would trim the neckpipe to accommodate the larger valve rather than put the receiver in the wrong place.[/quote]
Maybe clean up the solder too... also the reciever isn't square, looks to be angled a couple of degrees.
Maybe clean up the solder too... also the reciever isn't square, looks to be angled a couple of degrees.
- DougHulme
- Posts: 558
- Joined: Apr 27, 2018
Did anyone ever try the service of opening the ports on the existing valve and also replating the inner valve? Cant remember who used to offer this service, a couple of people I think, but I never met anyone who did that. Does it work? I have a student at the moment with a 42B with a closed wrap and it plays 'quite' well just think its capable of a bit more. It plays well enough not to recomend the expense of a complete valve change... Just thinking out loud!... Doug
- BGuttman
- Posts: 7368
- Joined: Mar 22, 2018
Osmun Brass in the Boston MA USA area used to offer this service. It cost $100 a valve about 15 years ago. I never needed it since I play a Yamaha 682 and the valve is pretty open without any modification.
- tbonesullivan
- Posts: 1959
- Joined: Jul 02, 2019
[quote="BGuttman"]Osmun Brass in the Boston MA USA area used to offer this service. It cost $100 a valve about 15 years ago. I never needed it since I play a Yamaha 682 and the valve is pretty open without any modification.[/quote] They definitely still offer that service. I would wager it is almost entirely done on older horns and Bach Trombones. Why Bach can't just reach over to the next aisle and start using the valves that they put on the Conn 88H is beyond me.
Then again if they did they'd raise the price even more.
Then again if they did they'd raise the price even more.
- Posaunus
- Posts: 5018
- Joined: Mar 23, 2018
[quote="tbonesullivan"]Why Bach can't just reach over to the next aisle and start using the valves that they put on the Conn 88H is beyond me.[/quote]
Is the current 88H valve the same as those used for the Benge 190F/165F 20+ years ago? Nice valves - larger and freer blowing than Elkhart 88H valves.
Is the current 88H valve the same as those used for the Benge 190F/165F 20+ years ago? Nice valves - larger and freer blowing than Elkhart 88H valves.
- tbonesullivan
- Posts: 1959
- Joined: Jul 02, 2019
[quote="Posaunus"]<QUOTE author="tbonesullivan" post_id="175529" time="1649094894" user_id="7063">
Why Bach can't just reach over to the next aisle and start using the valves that they put on the Conn 88H is beyond me.[/quote]
Is the current 88H valve the same as those used for the Benge 190F/165F 20+ years ago? Nice valves - larger and freer blowing than Elkhart 88H valves.
</QUOTE> It may be, but the linkage is mechanical, not string. It's a nice full size rotor with good knuckles. I mean, I guess Bach would have to make the receivers a bit shorter, and they don't want to "mess with the secret sauce" or something like that.
Why Bach can't just reach over to the next aisle and start using the valves that they put on the Conn 88H is beyond me.[/quote]
Is the current 88H valve the same as those used for the Benge 190F/165F 20+ years ago? Nice valves - larger and freer blowing than Elkhart 88H valves.
</QUOTE> It may be, but the linkage is mechanical, not string. It's a nice full size rotor with good knuckles. I mean, I guess Bach would have to make the receivers a bit shorter, and they don't want to "mess with the secret sauce" or something like that.
- Matt_K
- Posts: 4809
- Joined: Mar 21, 2018
I mean, in this very thread we've learned that Bach is using .590 tubes for one of the lengths in the valve section. There's probably a reason for these choices, but it might not be a good reason. Doesn't the A47 largely, if not completely, fix some of the weirdness of the design?
- octavposaune
- Posts: 160
- Joined: Jul 04, 2018
Matt K,
Its entirely parts binning a new model. Ball out dies for truing up bent parts are expensive to make. Here goes the parts non-sense. The Bach open (36 + 42BO)wrap has no newly made tubing. The first 90 degree sweep is longer trimmed part from a trad wrap, the slide tubes are made from the same bulk tubing as trad wraps. The tuning slide crook is the bottom crook of a Bach 36 handslide, and the offset bend is from a 50B2, and its not a perfect offset either 50B2 offsets make the flat E point outwards a bit. The only new parts were the special machined ferrules and one out slide tube to fit the .593" 50B2 offset. A very thrown together parts bin special open wrap. I had one of these with a Kanstul CR valve conversion. I rebuilt it with Instrument innovation bends, including a proper .562 offset, and a thayer style single radius tuning slide crook.
Its entirely parts binning a new model. Ball out dies for truing up bent parts are expensive to make. Here goes the parts non-sense. The Bach open (36 + 42BO)wrap has no newly made tubing. The first 90 degree sweep is longer trimmed part from a trad wrap, the slide tubes are made from the same bulk tubing as trad wraps. The tuning slide crook is the bottom crook of a Bach 36 handslide, and the offset bend is from a 50B2, and its not a perfect offset either 50B2 offsets make the flat E point outwards a bit. The only new parts were the special machined ferrules and one out slide tube to fit the .593" 50B2 offset. A very thrown together parts bin special open wrap. I had one of these with a Kanstul CR valve conversion. I rebuilt it with Instrument innovation bends, including a proper .562 offset, and a thayer style single radius tuning slide crook.