Earl Williams 10 Bass Trombone on ebay

DougHulme · by **DougHulme** » 2022-01-10 3:23 a.m.

Anyone see this on ebay <LINK_TEXT text="https://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/255315425145 ... Sw0xdh1epw">https://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/255315425145?hash=item3b71fc3779:g:E-YAAOSw0xdh1epw</LINK_TEXT>

Thats 13,000 euros, £10,000 or $15,000 (+) I know he didnt make many but that much?... wow.

Doug

DougHulme · by **DougHulme** » 2022-01-10 3:35 a.m.

So would I be right in thinking the only thing Earl Williams about this horn is the bell? Or is there much more of his handywork in this?... forgive my ignorance!

Doug

skaskaster · by **skaskaster** » 2022-01-10 3:42 a.m.

elbblech

That seller always had high prices on his instruments + he is Germany, and as far as I saw, prices in Europe for used trombones were always a little bit higher than in USA.
[quote="DougHulme"]So would I be right in thinking the only thing Earl Williams about this horn is the bell? Or is there much more of his handywork in this?... forgive my ignorance!

Doug[/quote]
Yes, the description there says it is:

"Beautiful and extremely rare Williams 10 bell with Lätzsch valve section and Bach 50 slide with Brassark Bach 50 NYC Leadpipe."

elmsandr · by **elmsandr** » 2022-01-10 8:42 a.m.

[quote="DougHulme"]So would I be right in thinking the only thing Earl Williams about this horn is the bell? Or is there much more of his handywork in this?... forgive my ignorance!

Doug[/quote]
Correct. But with only like 10 horns and a couple of additional bells out there, that is still pretty rare air.

Cheers,

Andy

DougHulme · by **DougHulme** » 2022-01-10 10:32 a.m.

I suppose that's true... lets hope the valves and slide do the bell justice then!

Doug

WGWTR180 · by **WGWTR180** » 2022-01-10 10:37 a.m.

It's beautifully put together and I love dependent instruments. But at that price I'll pass. :)

DougHulme · by **DougHulme** » 2022-01-10 10:50 a.m.

It's beautifully put together and I love dependent instruments. But at that price I'll pass.

Thats me too. I suppose what you mention is what caught my eye.

Doug

Matt_K · by **Matt_K** » 2022-01-10 11:48 a.m.

Admittedly I know almost no German, but it seems like they are saying this is like a Bach 50, Conn 62H, and a King 6B/7B. Either Google translate is wildly misinterpreting what they're saying or... I'm really curious as to what they mean. If Lätzsch did the work I bet it is phenomenal, and not too far off the mark pricewise from other European makers.

ithinknot · by **ithinknot** » 2022-01-10 12:08 p.m.

[quote="Matt K"]Admittedly I know almost no German, but it seems like they are saying this is like a Bach 50, Conn 62H, and a King 6B/7B. Either Google translate is wildly misinterpreting what they're saying or... I'm really curious as to what they mean.[/quote]

You've never seen this before? It's just piling on a load of extra keywords so it turns up in other searches.

DougHulme · by **DougHulme** » 2022-01-10 12:16 p.m.

If you read right to the bottom of their advert beyond the German they do actually give you an English translation. Matt, I take your point about 'other European manufacturers' but only the likes of Thein would charge anywhere near and then not as much. Mick Rath isnt charging those sorts of prices nor Voight and they do even beter work than that which I see in these photos (which is good).

Thats not to say if I was rich I wouldnt contemplate this horn but I would need to be a good deal richer than I am!!

Doug

Matt_K · by **Matt_K** » 2022-01-10 12:21 p.m.

[quote="ithinknot"]<QUOTE author="Matt K" post_id="167908" time="1641833324" user_id="48">
Admittedly I know almost no German, but it seems like they are saying this is like a Bach 50, Conn 62H, and a King 6B/7B. Either Google translate is wildly misinterpreting what they're saying or... I'm really curious as to what they mean.[/quote]

You've never seen this before? It's just piling on a load of extra keywords so it turns up in other searches.
</QUOTE>

Surprisingly, no, I don't think I have! I wonder how many people are searching for Bach 50s and impulsively by a $15k instrument...

[quote="DougHulme"]If you read right to the bottom of their advert beyond the German they do actually give you an English translation. Matt, I take your point about 'other European manufacturers' but only the likes of Thein would charge anywhere near and then not as much. Mick Rath isnt charging those sorts of prices nor Voight and they do even beter work than that which I see in these photos (which is good).

Thats not to say if I was rich I wouldnt contemplate this horn but I would need to be a good deal richer than I am!!

Doug[/quote]

Yeah Thein was what I was thinking of, although I seem to recall other brass makers who do things like French horns who sell for 5 digits, but maybe it is more of an outlier.

Burgerbob · by **Burgerbob** » 2022-01-10 1:05 p.m.

Laetzsch trombones are right around this price.

JohnL · by **JohnL** » 2022-01-10 2:05 p.m.

At that price it will likely go to a collector. That's a lot of money for a working musician to pay for an instrument that's probably not going to be their daily driver. The kids need braces, the car needs tires, and gigs are still kinda scarce.

bellend · by **bellend** » 2022-01-10 4:20 p.m.

Given that this has nothing actually made by Earl Williams that price is quite frankly a joke......

Go and spend a tenth of that on some lessons with a great teacher would be my advice.......

BellEnd

WGWTR180 · by **WGWTR180** » 2022-01-10 4:45 p.m.

[quote="bellend"]Given that this has nothing actually made by Earl Williams that price is quite frankly a joke......

Go and spend a tenth of that on some lessons with a great teacher would be my advice.......

BellEnd[/quote]

Except the bell? And I would remove that sandwich press and I bet the sound would blossom.

WGWTR180 · 2022-01-10 4:53 p.m.

[quote="Burgerbob"]Laetzsch trombones are right around this price.[/quote]

The most expensive Laetzsch bass trombone on their site is around 9000 euros or about $10,200. Still too much for my blood unless I sold about 3 instruments.

ithinknot · by **ithinknot** » 2022-01-10 5:10 p.m.

[quote="WGWTR180"]<QUOTE author="bellend" post_id="167940" time="1641849657" user_id="82">
nothing actually made by Earl Williams[/quote]

Except the bell?
</QUOTE>

Donelson... might be a great bell, but EW was somewhat socially distanced

WGWTR180 · by **WGWTR180** » 2022-01-11 8:03 a.m.

The more I look at this the more I want to try it. :)

HawaiiTromboneGuy · by **HawaiiTromboneGuy** » 2022-01-11 10:19 a.m.

[quote="bellend"]Given that this has nothing actually made by Earl Williams that price is quite frankly a joke......

Go and spend a tenth of that on some lessons with a great teacher would be my advice.......

BellEnd[/quote]

Correct.

This is a Donelson era bell, from when Jay Armstrong was running/producing horns. Except for the mandrels, nothing is actually “Earl” made.

HawaiiTromboneGuy · by **HawaiiTromboneGuy** » 2022-01-11 10:22 a.m.

Some additional info from this era of Williams.

<LINK_TEXT text="http://www.davidbrubeck.com/2013/02/int ... trombones/">http://www.davidbrubeck.com/2013/02/interview-with-trombonists-jay-armstrong-co-founder-of-custom-made-earl-williams-donelson-tn-trombones/</LINK_TEXT>

DougHulme · by **DougHulme** » 2022-01-11 10:40 a.m.

This is a Donelson era bell, from when Jay Armstrong was running/producing horns. Except for the mandrels, nothing is actually “Earl” made.

Thank you, thats what I thought but wasnt sure my knowledge was up to saying it out loud!

Still a nice horn but $15,000?

Doug

HawaiiTromboneGuy · by **HawaiiTromboneGuy** » 2022-01-11 2:47 p.m.

[quote="DougHulme"]<QUOTE>This is a Donelson era bell, from when Jay Armstrong was running/producing horns. Except for the mandrels, nothing is actually “Earl” made.[/quote]

Thank you, thats what I thought but wasnt sure my knowledge was up to saying it out loud!

Still a nice horn but $15,000?

Doug
</QUOTE>
No problem! I mean, it could be a nice horn, but for that price, I’d probably go for something else.

DougHulme · by **DougHulme** » 2022-01-11 5:41 p.m.

Yes quite... that money would buy me that Thein BBb contra that I have always fancied having a go on, which at 3 or4 times a years use would work out at $5,000 a gig :idea: I'm being light hearted please dont take me seriously but Bellend probably had the right idea in his comments though as I say it does look like a nice horn and would be worth a reasonable amount but I think the way its billed is a bit mischevious?

Franticslide · by **Franticslide** » 2022-01-11 9:07 p.m.

If not for the $14K LARGE, I’d take it in a heartbeat

DougHulme · by **DougHulme** » 2022-01-12 3:36 a.m.

Interesting aside when I first googled the price it came out at $15,000, seeing Frantislide's post I looked again and yes $14,780 - the dollar seems to be doing well or the euro badly, covid? - probably!

Franticslide you are right it is an attractive/interesting proposition purely as horn in its own right... its just that price, its inflated because of what its not!

Doug

MrHCinDE · 2022-01-12 4:30 a.m.

Bit of a tangent but I've observed a tendency in Germany that branded products are quite expensive in the second-hand market. Even second-hand Ikea furniture (I kid you not) is often listed for 60%-70% of new price in some classified ads., especially if it's an item which is no longer in production. Rare, sought-after items such as this trombone can attract very high prices.

It's more important to some that it has Earl Williams stamped on it than whether he actually personally had a direct hand in making it. It's sort of a status symbol for a very niche group but those that recognize it will be envious of its owner, regardless of how the instrument (or player) sounds.

The redeeming feature of that seller is the returns policy. The buyer can agree a price, purchase the instrument and try is out at home or for rehearsals/gigs. If they decide that on balance it plays better than anything else on the market and will attract the envy of the trombone sections of all nearby Musikvereine then perhaps someone will decide it is worth €13k to them and keep it. As someone else wrote, it would be a very fortunate working musician to be in that position in the current circumstances so my bet would be on a collector or amateur enthusiast. The other Williams trombones of the seller have been up for a while now.

For the less rare horns, his prices are not exactly cheap but in the range where I've been previously tempted to make an offer or two. As it happens, we couldn't agree on a mutually acceptable price and with a bit of patience I was able to buy what I was looking for from a well-respected music store (also with returns policy) for considerably cheaper, 30-40% cheaper if I remember right.

DougHulme · by **DougHulme** » 2022-01-12 5:23 a.m.

MrHCinDE... I think that seller must have a knack for getting interesting horns because he has caught my eye on a number of occasions but as you say, its the price that's so high. I agree with what you say in your post about him and about German prices in general. Its funny how you can have a 'national' characteristic like that. Japan is the same, their prices for secondhand horns are eye watering. In neither case is the exchange rate entirely to blame. I suppose you could argue they just value their goods better than we do in the UK or the USA?.. Doug

MrHCinDE · 2022-01-12 6:09 a.m.

Doug, I think you're right about the national tendency in Germany and according to my own personal experience, many people value goods higher in Germany than in the UK. Around my part of Germany especially, it's all the better if the value can be recognised by others, plenty of Porsche, Mercedes AMG and deisgner clothing around here, the owners of which would also take pride in cutting a milk carton in half to extract the last few drops. I think there's a saying about a penny saved is better than a penny earned.

If I'm passing by Hamburg some time, I may try and stop in and see what all the fuss is about!

DougHulme · by **DougHulme** » 2022-01-12 7:32 a.m.

Yes I should too - I have a cottage in Finland and I drive round Hamburg at least twice a year (in normal times) on my way there. I think I can trust myself at his prices!

There's also a saying, 'take care of the pennies and the pounds will take care of themselves'! I suppose that means if I was more careful I could afford his prices!!!

Take care... Doug

MStarke · by **MStarke** » 2022-01-12 11:05 a.m.

Interesting discussion!

I think specifically on this horn the price seems almost ridiculous, but if someone buys it, then nothing is wrong about it...

In general we certainly have far less vintage American trombones (not only Williams, but also Conns or Bachs) here in middle Europe than in the US which then makes them more expensive. On the other hand you can get vintage German trombones far more easily here than in the US...

And in general I also think that at least partly Germans are very attracted by status symbols, especially expensive (but often boring!) cars... I really do not get that point... And you see quite some amateur brass players playing instruments that most professionals would not be able/willing to pay for. That is something that at least partly also applies to myself :-D

DougHulme · by **DougHulme** » 2022-01-12 11:54 a.m.

MStarke... You are of course right, anything is exactly worth what someone is willing to pay for it!

Also the likes of Shires, Rath, Thein, Edwards et al would all go bust if they had to rely on sales to professionals, amateurs and parents are the only ones who can afford boutique horns :weep: ... Doug

MrHCinDE · by **MrHCinDE** » 2022-01-12 12:00 p.m.

[quote="MStarke"]Interesting discussion!

... And you see quite some amateur brass players playing instruments that most professionals would not be able/willing to pay for. That is something that at least partly also applies to myself :-D[/quote]

This made me realize they hypocrisy of what I wrote earlier in the thread! I'm part of the problem too :shuffle:

At least I'm trying to sell two of my four vintage American small bore horns, if only to re-invest into some work on another horn. If I were making my living from music, I doubt I'd have built a collection of four horns which all essentially do the same job in the first place.

DougHulme · by **DougHulme** » 2022-01-12 12:15 p.m.

MrHCinDE - don't feel hypocritical the manufacturers will love you. The amateur that buys a horn the professional cant afford is just delaying the time the professional buys it off of him, second hand and for a price the professional can afford! Its a service to the professionals :D

MStarke... your mouthpieces look very interesting and with Thomman pushing them I hope you sell many!

Doug

MStarke · by **MStarke** » 2022-01-12 4:02 p.m.

Doug, really appreciated!

It's not a good investment for my pension fund, but it's a fun business and I am more than happy to answer any customer questions. And Thomann is definitely a good partner. Very happy to say that we have quite some sales in Germany, but also a good number of international customers.

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Earl Williams 10 Bass Trombone on ebay