Conn-Selmer health and wellness innovations?

ChadA · by **ChadA** » 2022-01-20 1:57 p.m.

Just saw this on my Facebook feed: https://www.conn-selmer.com/en-us/health-and-wellness

Lead free mouthpieces (well, what gov't regs consider lead-free) and anti-microbial lacquer. Interesting stuff. :)

SwissTbone · by **SwissTbone** » 2022-01-20 2:28 p.m.

I'd say if health of musicians really matters, we'd have to work on ergonomics first.

Vegasbound · by **Vegasbound** » 2022-01-20 2:42 p.m.

[quote="SwissTbone"]I'd say if health of musicians really matters, we'd have to work on ergonomics first.[/quote]

More like economics

Matt_K · by **Matt_K** » 2022-01-20 3:02 p.m.

We are happy to announce Bach Brass as the only manufacturer of lead-free* mouthpieces

Uhoh, thems fightin' words to Giddings. (I'm too lazy to bring up the bit of drama on the Facebook thread from a few years ago)

spencercarran · by **spencercarran** » 2022-01-20 3:17 p.m.

LMAO at the "antimicrobial lacquer." Note the lack of citations, details, anything at all. Pure marketing gibberish.

Bach5G · by **Bach5G** » 2022-01-20 3:18 p.m.

I’m waiting for “organic”.

OneTon · by **OneTon** » 2022-01-20 3:21 p.m.

The new Federal requirement is 0.25% maximum lead content in brass. The addition of lead improves the manufacturing properties of the raw material. There is no safe level of lead in humans. The human will not eliminate lead once it is introduced. The effects are cumulative. Tests must be performed to detect lead in humans. Lead contamination tends to be invisible until it is a real problem. The effects on children are worse than adults. Lead can be liberated from brass during the corrosion process.

Neither lead contamination nor ergonomics should be ignored when guarding the health of musicians. Conn Selmer should be applauded for taking the lead in eliminating a threat to health. We should probably consider leaving lacquer intact or re-application of missing lacquer, particularly on older instruments, to reduce risks and raise awareness.

Burgerbob · by **Burgerbob** » 2022-01-20 3:22 p.m.

[quote="OneTon"]The new Federal requirement is 0.25% maximum lead content in brass. The addition of lead improves the manufacturing properties of the raw material. There is no safe level of lead in humans. The human will not eliminate lead once it is introduced. The effects are cumulative. Tests must be performed to detect lead in humans. Lead contamination tends to be invisible until it is a real problem. The effects on children are worse than adults. Lead can be liberated from brass during the corrosion process.

Neither lead contamination nor ergonomics should be ignored when guarding the health of musicians. Conn Selmer should be applauded for taking the lead in eliminating a threat to health. We should probably consider leaving lacquer intact or re-application of missing lacquer, particularly on older instruments, to reduce risks and raise awareness.[/quote]

Is there a history of lead poisoning in brass musicians?

Doug_Elliott · by **Doug_Elliott** » 2022-01-20 3:30 p.m.

No, and not in people who work with brass either as far as I have heard. I handle raw brass constantly... I will get a blood test for lead but it's never shown up as a problem in the past.

OneTon · by **OneTon** » 2022-01-20 3:47 p.m.

Flint, Michigan had no problem until the water supply source was switched from Lake Huron to the more corrosive Flint River. When it comes to lead contamination, considering the effects, the invisibility until the symptoms become impossible to ignore, and difficulties in treatment and eradication, error on the side of caution has become preferred in the automotive, trucking, and plumbing industries.

CalgaryTbone · by **CalgaryTbone** » 2022-01-20 3:57 p.m.

I had a phone chat with my old teacher (Ed Herman - former NY Phil. Principal) some years ago from his retirement residence in FL. It was about 20 years ago - maybe longer. I don't remember all of the details on this topic, and Ed passed away probably a decade or more ago, so I can't find more details now. I do remember him talking about the Conn factory, and passing along a few stories about their instruments through the years. He said that at some point, Conn made changes to some part of their manufacturing process, because some of their employees had developed lead poisoning. This would have been in the first half of the 20th century - I can't give a more specific date, since it was just anecdotal. He told me that some players valued the older instruments, and felt that something was lost in the sound, but obviously, everyone wanted their horns to come from a factory that was safe for the workers. I would guess that there were a lot of factories that had issues with toxic substances for both their workers and for the public back then. Some better, but not perfect regulations to fight against that nowadays.

Jim Scott

elmsandr · by **elmsandr** » 2022-01-20 4:08 p.m.

The lead in the brass is probably more of a hazard to get into the drinking water supply than it is for handling. Do not compare lead in drinking water to lead in something that is merely handled. Most of the concern is for what happens at end of life disposal rather than manufacturing and use.

I, for one, am more concerned about the nickel exposure than lead exposure in raw brass as a handler/player/sometimes repairer.

(also, is Bach all in on lead-free solder yet? I didn't think they were...)

Cheers,

Andy

*for lead exposure, they used to use lead in bending processes; there you could maybe get some significant exposure.

ithinknot · by **ithinknot** » 2022-01-20 4:12 p.m.

[quote="OneTon"]We should probably consider leaving lacquer intact or re-application of missing lacquer, particularly on older instruments, to reduce risks and raise awareness.[/quote]

Yes, lead is bad, but the above is preposterous. Raw brass doesn't sit around off-gassing, or moult annually, and you'd have to be chowing down on a lot of bell flares for this to be an actual problem.

Particularly in the US, you're picking up exponentially more lead from the municipal water supply you use to wash your mouthpiece than you are from the mouthpiece itself. As a manufacturing and recycling consideration, though, fine; if they've got a nicely machinable substitute alloy then there's no reason not to switch.

The antimicrobial lacquer is something else... As far as microbial threats from instruments go, it's whatever the lazy owner is growing in the unlacquered interior that they should be concerned about, and the proliferation of these additives are not universally good or neutral news. 'Antimicrobial' covers a huge range of molecules and mechanisms, but some of these things are environmentally accumulating horror shows (the triclosan vs humans and algae issue comes to mind) that are far worse than the problems they claim to solve.

Crazy4Tbone86 · by **Crazy4Tbone86** » 2022-01-20 4:25 p.m.

Good point Andy! To my knowledge the highest amounts of lead in brass manufacturing are/were in the following:

*Lead was used as "filler" when bending tubing. This practice was abandoned many decades ago in the U.S.A. However, when I visited a few small shops in Germany in the late 1990s, lead was definitely still being used to bend tubing. Some of the instrument makers had large tubs of lead slugs expressly for that purpose.

*Lead is a significant ingredient in soft solder. Many low temperature solders are 50% lead and 50% tin.

I have been working with solder frequently for about 26 years. I have had several lead poisoning tests that have not shown any problems.

harrisonreed · by **harrisonreed** » 2022-01-20 4:51 p.m.

It is a lie that humans can't get rid of lead in their system too. There are a few ways... None are very attractive options though.

That said, LOL anti-microbial lacquer??

<LINK_TEXT text="https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Antimic ... efficiency">https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Antimicrobial_copper-alloy_touch_surfaces#:~:text=The%20surfaces%20of%20copper%20and,a%20high%20degree%20of%20efficiency</LINK_TEXT>.

Brass, at least, doesn't need it (it's made out of lead and "anti-life", after all!). They used to have surfaces in hospitals covered in copper or brass for the same reason. (Copper is the actual reason)

And what, are they lacquering the inside of the instrument, where all the viruses and bacteria collect?

I want to applaud them, but I don't think this is it. I'll give them lead-free mouthpieces. Hurray. I don't think lead leeches through silver plate, but now a nearly lead-free "silver plated" mouthpiece from Conn-Selmer is probably nearly as good health-wise as a real silver plate (more than one atom thick) mouthpiece made out of 2% lead brass. I had a Conn mouthpiece that you could almost see the lead through the one atom of silver they used. It went from silver to brass colored in about a day. Meanwhile the plating job from Bob Reeves on that same mouthpiece is still bright and looks brand new years later.

BGuttman · by **BGuttman** » 2022-01-20 5:15 p.m.

The alloy used for brass mouthpieces contains about 2% lead, added for improving machining. I'm not sure the same alloy is used for brass tubing. I don't remember finding anywhere near as much lead taking X-ray fluorescence measurements of my trombone bell.

The process for bending tubing now seems to use ice inside. Back in the Bad Old Days you would fill the pipe with pitch (a pine resin). Lead was used, but was supplanted by a low temperature melting alloy whose name escapes me.

Solder for plumbing purposes used to be half lead and half tin. Later soldering now uses "eutectic" solder, 70% tin and 30% lead. It melts at a lower temperature than 50-50, but since tin is more expensive than lead it is more expensive. With the advent of Reduction of Hazardous Substances (RoHS)) regulations in Europe, a tin-silver solder has been adopted. It melts cooler than "hard solder" but hotter than eutectic solder.

Note that a mouthpiece is invariably plated with silver or gold on top of the brass and thus your contact with a lead containing metal is minimal at most. Besides, you would have to sit sucking on the raw brass for extended periods of time to extract any lead from the alloy.

I suspect the lead-free brass was an attempt to meet RoHS standards, where the overall content must be under 1,000 ppm of lead. There are other metals under RoHS scrutiny but we generally don't see them in musical instrument production.

Incidentally, if you want an anti-microbial coating, consider silver plated instruments. Silver has anti-microbial properties.

elmsandr · by **elmsandr** » 2022-01-21 6:39 a.m.

Bending sometimes uses cerrobend, which does include lead, if they are using a metal filler.

I forget the brand name of the frozen soap stuff, but I think that is the most common practice these days.

Cheers,

Andy

jorymil · by **jorymil** » 2022-01-22 5:53 p.m.

I recently picked up a copy of the Erick repair manual, which still suggests using molten lead to bend tubing. Definitely showing its age at this point.

sirisobhakya · by **sirisobhakya** » 2022-01-22 11:51 p.m.

Isn’t brass already anti-microbial?

harrisonreed · by **harrisonreed** » 2022-01-23 1:38 a.m.

[quote="sirisobhakya"]Isn’t brass already anti-microbial?[/quote]

That's what I was saying!

spencercarran · by **spencercarran** » 2022-01-23 10:38 a.m.

FWIW, I would bet a lot of money that they didn't actually change anything about their lacquer process at all, and are just spouting buzzwords that are vague enough not to draw any regulatory scrutiny.

BGuttman · by **BGuttman** » 2022-01-23 11:12 a.m.

Well, I guess lacquer on top of the bare brass would negate any antimicrobial properties of the brass. Still, we know that COVID-19 doesn't last long on hard surfaces (generally 24 hours or so). Sure, other microbes might last longer, but we don't seem to be so concerned with them right now.

I think it's really a bit of puffery. You could do just as well by wiping down your horn with a sanitizer pad after you use it.

Pre59 · by **Pre59** » 2022-01-23 11:25 a.m.

Combining the antimicrobial with convenience, I have found my sterling silver lead pipe stays cleaner, and is easier to clean than a brass one.

Which begs the question, is there any benefit in silver plating brass lead pipes for hygiene and ease of cleaning?

Matt_K · by **Matt_K** » 2022-01-23 12:25 p.m.

[quote="Pre59"]Combining the antimicrobial with convenience, I have found my sterling silver lead pipe stays cleaner, and is easier to clean than a brass one.

Which begs the question, is there any benefit in silver plating brass lead pipes for hygiene and ease of cleaning?[/quote]

I'm actually planning on silver plating my leadpipes in the not too distant future for similar reasons. And hopefully stave off any corrosion.

tbonesullivan · by **tbonesullivan** » 2022-01-24 8:21 p.m.

[quote="OneTon"]Neither lead contamination nor ergonomics should be ignored when guarding the health of musicians. Conn Selmer should be applauded for taking the lead in eliminating a threat to health. We should probably consider leaving lacquer intact or re-application of missing lacquer, particularly on older instruments, to reduce risks and raise awareness.[/quote] Oh boy. Considering that there is limited evidence that lead contamination can occur directly through the skin, I think that is a bit premature. Also, it seems like a fairly empty gesture, except on mouthpieces.

Most companies have already moved to silver solder due to RoHS requirements. Furthermore, looking at the four alloys used most in instruments, all of them are already well under .25% already, most significantly so.

C23000 / Red Brass (Rose Brass) or 85/15 brass is 0.050% lead

C22000 / Commercial Bronze (Red Brass) or 90/10 brass is the same.

C26000 / Yellow / Brass is 0.070%

I am not sure what Alloy is used for nickel silver, but C74000 is also 0.050% lead.

With no lead in the solder, and trace lead in the actual brass, I'm not sure what Conn-Selmer would be protecting us from with lacquer.

Also, looking at the 0.25 on "wetted surfaces" with the mouthpieces, what does that mean in real world terms? If they are silver plated, it's pure silver, so there shouldn't be any lead on the surface, even if the mouthpiece has lead on the inside. Or does the lead permeate the entire mouthpiece through the plating?

BGuttman · by **BGuttman** » 2022-01-25 1:16 a.m.

Have they changed the RoHS standard for lead? When I was testing for compliance the spec was 0.1% (1000 PPM). Still, the values you show for brasses meet RoHS. There was an alloy of brass containing 2% lead for machinability and it was 942 or something like that. The mouthpiece is the only wetted surface on a trombone (unless you sweat really bad). Very old instruments that looked like a matte bare brass had a Chromate conversion coating that reduced tarnishing. Chromate is hexavalent chromium which is also restricted under RoHS.

hornbuilder · by **hornbuilder** » 2022-01-25 9:00 a.m.

Re silver plating leadpipes.

The outside of the pipe will plate well, but it is very difficult to plate inside items. Especially long, narrow tubes.

Pre59 · by **Pre59** » 2022-01-25 2:35 p.m.

[quote="hornbuilder"]Re silver plating leadpipes.

The outside of the pipe will plate well, but it is very difficult to plate inside items. Especially long, narrow tubes.[/quote]

I've have a brass lead pipe that I've hardly/rarely used and it has some tiny particles inside that are proving hard to shift. I was hoping that a chemical clean followed by silver plating might be practical. :(

Posaunus · by **Posaunus** » 2022-01-25 7:26 p.m.

[quote="Pre59"]<QUOTE author="hornbuilder" post_id="169509" time="1643119208" user_id="3205">
Re silver plating leadpipes.

The outside of the pipe will plate well, but it is very difficult to plate inside items. Especially long, narrow tubes.[/quote]

I've have a brass lead pipe that I've hardly/rarely used and it has some tiny particles inside that are proving hard to shift. I was hoping that a chemical clean followed by silver plating might be practical. :(
</QUOTE>

Since interior silver plating is difficult, it might be better to initially thoroughly clean [chemically if necessary] the lead pipe, and then regularly swab and clean it [mechanically] every few days to keep it clean. And brush the food off your teeth before you play the trombone.

That's pretty much what I do, and it seems to work.

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Conn-Selmer health and wellness innovations?