Olds P-16 Custom
- Cotboneman
- Posts: 210
- Joined: Jul 27, 2018
I live near a large 55+ community in NW Tucson which has a fair number of retired trombone players, like myself, who have gotten together since the pandemic began to play duets, trios and larger trombone ensembles. There are a wide variety of trombone makes and models in use, naturally. But one of my ensemble partners recently came across an Olds P-16 Custom from near the end of Olds' run in 1979 and brought it to a quartet practice.
I don't know if the gentleman who gifted the horn to my friend had it restored, but it's in near mint condition and has the most gorgeous tone. I know it's a .500 bore horn with a 71/2 inch bell in bright yellow brass and nickel trim, but have no other information to share with him.
Does anyone have any background information of experience with the P-16 Custom? I imagine it was designed to compete with the 6H or Bach 12, but obviously didn't save Olds from going out of business.
I don't know if the gentleman who gifted the horn to my friend had it restored, but it's in near mint condition and has the most gorgeous tone. I know it's a .500 bore horn with a 71/2 inch bell in bright yellow brass and nickel trim, but have no other information to share with him.
Does anyone have any background information of experience with the P-16 Custom? I imagine it was designed to compete with the 6H or Bach 12, but obviously didn't save Olds from going out of business.
- jorymil
- Posts: 304
- Joined: Oct 26, 2019
Check out http://itsabear.com/horns/p-16/p-16.html for some more info on the P-16. Really lightweight horn--kind of like an earlier-generation Fedchock or Jiggs horn. I have a similar version - the P-15 - up for consignment.
- Cotboneman
- Posts: 210
- Joined: Jul 27, 2018
[quote="jorymil"]Check out http://itsabear.com/horns/p-16/p-16.html for some more info on the P-16. Really lightweight horn--kind of like an earlier-generation Fedchock or Jiggs horn. I have a similar version - the P-15 - up for consignment.[/quote]
Thanks I'll check it out! :good:
Thanks I'll check it out! :good:
- Crazy4Tbone86
- Posts: 1654
- Joined: Jan 14, 2020
I remember seeing the P-16 in the Olds brochures in the late 1970s...when I was in high school. It was being marketed as Olds' top-of-the-line trombone at the time. I had a friend who bought one in about 1978 and he absolutely loved it because he thought it played effortlessly.
I am sure (as jorymil stated) that it was a light gauge bell. My friend was very aware of that and he was EXTREMELY careful with mutes and placing it on a trombone stand. I don't remember it being a yellow brass bell. I thought it was more of a gold brass (rose brass) or some type of alloy that had a little more copper in it. Then again, that was 40+ years ago!
I am sure (as jorymil stated) that it was a light gauge bell. My friend was very aware of that and he was EXTREMELY careful with mutes and placing it on a trombone stand. I don't remember it being a yellow brass bell. I thought it was more of a gold brass (rose brass) or some type of alloy that had a little more copper in it. Then again, that was 40+ years ago!
- Cotboneman
- Posts: 210
- Joined: Jul 27, 2018
[quote="Crazy4Tbone86"]I remember seeing the P-16 in the Olds brochures in the late 1970s...when I was in high school. It was being marketed as Olds' top-of-the-line trombone at the time. I had a friend who bought one in about 1978 and he absolutely loved it because he thought it played effortlessly.
I am sure (as jorymil stated) that it was a light gauge bell. My friend was very aware of that and he was EXTREMELY careful with mutes and placing it on a trombone stand. I don't remember it being a yellow brass bell. I thought it was more of a gold brass (rose brass) or some type of alloy that had a little more copper in it. Then again, that was 40+ years ago![/quote]
This one is definitely yellow brass. I'm wondering if the former owner had it restored/re-lacquered because I could not find a scratch, dent or wear mark on it.
I am sure (as jorymil stated) that it was a light gauge bell. My friend was very aware of that and he was EXTREMELY careful with mutes and placing it on a trombone stand. I don't remember it being a yellow brass bell. I thought it was more of a gold brass (rose brass) or some type of alloy that had a little more copper in it. Then again, that was 40+ years ago![/quote]
This one is definitely yellow brass. I'm wondering if the former owner had it restored/re-lacquered because I could not find a scratch, dent or wear mark on it.
- jorymil
- Posts: 304
- Joined: Oct 26, 2019
Yellow brass? That seems odd... the catalogs all said the bells were made out of something called "Lub-a-loy." It seemed closest to a modern-day gold brass, like you might see on a Bach xxG or Yamaha 446G. Certainly not the more reddish color of a Super or Recording. But what I perceived as gold brass may just have been a orange-tinted lacquer, and the name "Lub-a-loy" is definitely a marketing term if I've ever heard one.
Important thing is that you enjoy the horn, though!
Important thing is that you enjoy the horn, though!
- JohnL
- Posts: 2529
- Joined: Mar 23, 2018
P-15's and P-16's are entirely different instruments. P-15's have a "Lub-A-Loy" bell (looks like maybe the same material as a Recording bell to me) with the rest being made of nickel silver. P-16's are almost entirely yellow brass.
I've always thought of the P-15 as being an attempt to reconcile mainstream small bore trombone design (instruments like the Conn 6H and Williams 6) with the traditional Olds design aesthetic. On the other hand, the P-16 seems to have been a complete departure from any Olds had made before.
Back when I was playing tenor in a big band, I used the P-15 when I played lead (because it made the sound I wanted to make) and the P-16 when I wasn't (because it made it easier to make a sound that blended with the non-Olds horn the lead player was using).
I've always thought of the P-15 as being an attempt to reconcile mainstream small bore trombone design (instruments like the Conn 6H and Williams 6) with the traditional Olds design aesthetic. On the other hand, the P-16 seems to have been a complete departure from any Olds had made before.
Back when I was playing tenor in a big band, I used the P-15 when I played lead (because it made the sound I wanted to make) and the P-16 when I wasn't (because it made it easier to make a sound that blended with the non-Olds horn the lead player was using).
- Cotboneman
- Posts: 210
- Joined: Jul 27, 2018
[quote="jorymil"]Yellow brass? That seems odd... the catalogs all said the bells were made out of something called "Lub-a-loy." It seemed closest to a modern-day gold brass, like you might see on a Bach xxG or Yamaha 446G. Certainly not the more reddish color of a Super or Recording. But what I perceived as gold brass may just have been a orange-tinted lacquer, and the name "Lub-a-loy" is definitely a marketing term if I've ever heard one.
Important thing is that you enjoy the horn, though![/quote]
The horn belongs to a friend who was gifted it by someone who can no longer play. I played it once and thought it was great. The bell appeared to be yellow brass, but it was also in near flawless condition, so who knows what work was done to it. Bur the bottom line is that its a really good player and my friend is in enjoying it. The It's a Bear website suggests that its designers may have gone back to the old pre-WWII Self-Balancing model, which they say was a yellow brass bell.
Important thing is that you enjoy the horn, though![/quote]
The horn belongs to a friend who was gifted it by someone who can no longer play. I played it once and thought it was great. The bell appeared to be yellow brass, but it was also in near flawless condition, so who knows what work was done to it. Bur the bottom line is that its a really good player and my friend is in enjoying it. The It's a Bear website suggests that its designers may have gone back to the old pre-WWII Self-Balancing model, which they say was a yellow brass bell.
- JohnL
- Posts: 2529
- Joined: Mar 23, 2018
[quote="Cotboneman"]The It's a Bear website suggests that its designers may have gone back to the old pre-WWII Self-Balancing model, which they say was a yellow brass bell.[/quote]
Not what I said at all. Here's what I said:
It's almost as if the designers went back to the early thirties in the pre-WWII Self-Balancing model; a yellow brass horn with nickel trim and conventional, three-piece cylindrical braces - but I think it more likely Olds was looking to the contemporary Bach 12, Conn 6H, and Martin Committee for inspriation (the single-bore .500" slide and 7½" bell would certainly support that theory).
Not what I said at all. Here's what I said:
It's almost as if the designers went back to the early thirties in the pre-WWII Self-Balancing model; a yellow brass horn with nickel trim and conventional, three-piece cylindrical braces - but I think it more likely Olds was looking to the contemporary Bach 12, Conn 6H, and Martin Committee for inspriation (the single-bore .500" slide and 7½" bell would certainly support that theory).
- jorymil
- Posts: 304
- Joined: Oct 26, 2019
[quote="JohnL"]P-15's and P-16's are entirely different instruments. P-15's have a "Lub-A-Loy" bell (looks like maybe the same material as a Recording bell to me) with the rest being made of nickel silver. P-16's are almost entirely yellow brass.[/quote]
Thanks for setting me straight on this, John. Going back and reading your articles again!
Thanks for setting me straight on this, John. Going back and reading your articles again!
- Cotboneman
- Posts: 210
- Joined: Jul 27, 2018
[quote="JohnL"]<QUOTE author="Cotboneman" post_id="170199" time="1643684825" user_id="3573">The It's a Bear website suggests that its designers may have gone back to the old pre-WWII Self-Balancing model, which they say was a yellow brass bell.[/quote]
Not what I said at all. Here's what I said:
It's almost as if the designers went back to the early thirties in the pre-WWII Self-Balancing model; a yellow brass horn with nickel trim and conventional, three-piece cylindrical braces - but I think it more likely Olds was looking to the contemporary Bach 12, Conn 6H, and Martin Committee for inspriation (the single-bore .500" slide and 7½" bell would certainly support that theory).
</QUOTE>
Thanks for the correction.
Not what I said at all. Here's what I said:
It's almost as if the designers went back to the early thirties in the pre-WWII Self-Balancing model; a yellow brass horn with nickel trim and conventional, three-piece cylindrical braces - but I think it more likely Olds was looking to the contemporary Bach 12, Conn 6H, and Martin Committee for inspriation (the single-bore .500" slide and 7½" bell would certainly support that theory).
</QUOTE>
Thanks for the correction.
- Oslide
- Posts: 205
- Joined: Apr 03, 2018
[quote="jorymil"]- snippet -
...some more info on the P-16. Really lightweight horn--kind of like an earlier-generation Fedchock or Jiggs horn...[/quote]
Today, I checked the weight of my P-16. While the outer slide is on the light side (outer slide = 195 g, complete slide = 510 g), the bell is 545 g w/o tuning slide, and 880 g including crook and counterweight. Compared to e.g. my 1962 6H (530 g w/o TS, 835 g w/ TS) there doesn't seem to be much of a difference.
...some more info on the P-16. Really lightweight horn--kind of like an earlier-generation Fedchock or Jiggs horn...[/quote]
Today, I checked the weight of my P-16. While the outer slide is on the light side (outer slide = 195 g, complete slide = 510 g), the bell is 545 g w/o tuning slide, and 880 g including crook and counterweight. Compared to e.g. my 1962 6H (530 g w/o TS, 835 g w/ TS) there doesn't seem to be much of a difference.
- Macbone1
- Posts: 501
- Joined: Oct 01, 2019
Looks like a nice comfortable span for both the slide tubes and bell section. Not typical of earlier Olds models and a welcome change. Everyone I ever talked with who had this model just loved it. I'd be craving one too (Olds trbs have great tone and build quality) but I have a King Jiggs, so.... :good:
- Cotboneman
- Posts: 210
- Joined: Jul 27, 2018
[quote="Macbone1"]Looks like a nice comfortable span for both the slide tubes and bell section. Not typical of earlier Olds models and a welcome change. Everyone I ever talked with who had this model just loved it. I'd be craving one too (Olds trbs have great tone and build quality) but I have a King Jiggs, so.... :good:[/quote]
I offered to buy my friend's P-16, but he's not having any of that :lol:
I offered to buy my friend's P-16, but he's not having any of that :lol:
- hyperbolica
- Posts: 3990
- Joined: Mar 23, 2018
[quote="jorymil"]Check out http://itsabear.com/horns/p-16/p-16.html for some more info on the P-16. Really lightweight horn--kind of like an earlier-generation Fedchock or Jiggs horn. I have a similar version - the P-15 - up for consignment.[/quote]
Where is your P-15 listed? I'd like to have a look?
Where is your P-15 listed? I'd like to have a look?
- jorymil
- Posts: 304
- Joined: Oct 26, 2019
[quote="hyperbolica"]<QUOTE author="jorymil" post_id="169886" time="1643512969" user_id="7947">
Check out http://itsabear.com/horns/p-16/p-16.html for some more info on the P-16. Really lightweight horn--kind of like an earlier-generation Fedchock or Jiggs horn. I have a similar version - the P-15 - up for consignment.[/quote]
Where is your P-15 listed? I'd like to have a look?
</QUOTE>
It was listed at BAC Music's site: <LINK_TEXT text="https://www.bacmusicshop.com/pre-owned/ ... -trombone/">https://www.bacmusicshop.com/pre-owned/pre-owned-brass/trombone-bass-trombone/</LINK_TEXT>
I believe it's been sold, though recently: we're in that period between the horn shipping and a check being cut. I can ask who it sold to if you'd like.
Check out http://itsabear.com/horns/p-16/p-16.html for some more info on the P-16. Really lightweight horn--kind of like an earlier-generation Fedchock or Jiggs horn. I have a similar version - the P-15 - up for consignment.[/quote]
Where is your P-15 listed? I'd like to have a look?
</QUOTE>
It was listed at BAC Music's site: <LINK_TEXT text="https://www.bacmusicshop.com/pre-owned/ ... -trombone/">https://www.bacmusicshop.com/pre-owned/pre-owned-brass/trombone-bass-trombone/</LINK_TEXT>
I believe it's been sold, though recently: we're in that period between the horn shipping and a check being cut. I can ask who it sold to if you'd like.