Shires pre-bankruptcy?

Bach5G · 2022-02-01 1:46 a.m.

I saw an ad tonight for a used Shires horn that was advertised as “pre-bankruptcy”.

“Pre-bankruptcy” Shires - is that a thing now? “Pre-Eastman”?

Burgerbob · by **Burgerbob** » 2022-02-01 2:13 a.m.

Been a thing for a while, yes.

Cmillar · by **Cmillar** » 2022-02-01 8:27 a.m.

Thought that it referred to the musician!....that's happened to many!

chromebone · by **chromebone** » 2022-02-01 10:17 a.m.

I’m old enough to remember when Corporation Bachs were considered inferior and only a Mount Vernon or New York would do, and we’re not talking about “early Elkhart”, which seems to move further and further away from 1965 so now a horn built in 1975 somehow is “early Elkhart”.

There’s a lot of this retrospective upvaluing/vintagization going on nowadays as older instruments become more scarce. Used to be a CBS era Fender guitar was considered garbage, now they fetch stupid high prices.

Either it’s a good instrument or it’s not.

JohnL · by **JohnL** » 2022-02-01 10:34 a.m.

Sometimes there is some legitimacy to such things. It'd be hard to argue that the quality of Getzen instruments didn't experience a marked improvement after the bankruptcy and the subsequent return of the Getzen family.

spencercarran · by **spencercarran** » 2022-02-01 12:06 p.m.

[quote="chromebone"]I’m old enough to remember when Corporation Bachs were considered inferior and only a Mount Vernon or New York would do, and we’re not talking about “early Elkhart”, which seems to move further and further away from 1965 so now a horn built in 1975 somehow is “early Elkhart”.

There’s a lot of this retrospective upvaluing/vintagization going on nowadays as older instruments become more scarce. Used to be a CBS era Fender guitar was considered garbage, now they fetch stupid high prices.

Either it’s a good instrument or it’s not.[/quote]

And yet I've seen no ads bragging about Abilene Conns.

greenbean · by **greenbean** » 2022-02-01 12:14 p.m.

[quote="spencercarran"]

And yet I've seen no ads bragging about Abilene Conns.[/quote]

Someday...

baileyman · by **baileyman** » 2022-02-01 1:27 p.m.

If I recall, the Shires hole was small enough a few people on TTF could have put up the dough to buy the debt and keep it going. I feel bad not promoting that idea there at the time.

But heck, then there wouldn't have been a pre-bankruptcy premium!

Digidog · by **Digidog** » 2022-02-01 3:10 p.m.

Magical thinking is a hell of a drug....

Seriously: When was Shires bought by Eastman? I have heard that Eastman owns Shires, but not noticing when it happened - if that ever was a noticeable event. Did they close shop at any time?

spencercarran · by **spencercarran** » 2022-02-01 4:07 p.m.

[quote="Digidog"]Magical thinking is a hell of a drug....

Seriously: When was Shires bought by Eastman? I have heard that Eastman owns Shires, but not noticing when it happened - if that ever was a noticeable event. Did they close shop at any time?[/quote]

2014 according to the Shires site. I'm a bit fuzzy on whether there was any previous collaboration or if it was a sudden buy-out. Were the "Eastman by Shires" instruments only after the acquisition?

octavposaune · by **octavposaune** » 2022-02-01 4:44 p.m.

Eastman bought Shires wholesale prior to a tax bankruptcy auction. Thankfully this kept the company intact. From what I understand production has sharply upticked and not many employees remain from pre bankruptcy (I do not judge whether this is good or bad).

Prior to the bankruptcy you could literally get anything you wanted from Shires if you had the funds to pay for it and the time to wait. Production is much more streamlined now and custom parts are much harder to get.

Benn

sungfw · by **sungfw** » 2022-02-01 4:49 p.m.

[quote="spencercarran"]2014 according to the Shires site. I'm a bit fuzzy on whether there was any previous collaboration or if it was a sudden buy-out. Were the "Eastman by Shires" instruments only after the acquisition?[/quote]

There definitely was a collaboration between Eastman and Shires prior to the buyout. According to ~~[url=http://forums.chisham.com/viewtopic.php?t=34672]~~this post on TubeNet, which cites posts by Gabe Langfur, Eastman approached Shires about developing the Eastman by Shires line in 2004.

I purchased an Eastman by Shires baritone horn (British style) in 2010, largely on the strength of Shires' involvement (which was featured several times in the blog on the Shires website, including a post during the run-up to the 2008 Beijing Olympics highlighting Eastman as the exclusive supplier of brass instruments and Shires' involvement in the design, mfg, and QC of Eastman's low brass line), that had some mechanical and intonation issues. After a round of back-and-forth with Eastman, they had me ship it (on their dime) to Shires for inspection. Shires confirmed the issues were mfg-related and replaced it with one that they tested and QC-ed in-house.

harrisonreed · by **harrisonreed** » 2022-02-01 5:32 p.m.

What it is, is that pre-bankruptcy, S.E. Shires couldn't afford to talk about why their artists played on both their signature instrument AND the student version of their instrument in an hour-plus long interview over Zoom while young students posted questions in the comments about which horn was better. Post-bankruptcy, they now have the power and funds to do that. They are now so powerful that you seriously can either choose to buy the $2000 or the $6000 version of the same, post-bankruptcy instrument, and not be able to tell the difference while the pressure is high and the cameras are rolling. I'm not judging them here. Just reporting that all this happened, and not just with one artist.

Bach5G · 2022-02-01 5:49 p.m.

I read that Shires ran into trouble in 2008 and borrowed from Eastman. Eventually Shires filed for bankruptcy and Eastman bought the company. Steve left the company in approx. 2019 or so.

I found this in the WSJ (2014):

“Turned away by traditional lenders, the company borrowed money instead through factoring companies that provide temporary financing "at an unsustainable interest rate of 20% to 40%," the company said in bankruptcy court papers.

Last year, the company had sales of $2.8 million but lost about $379,000, according to court papers.

S.E. Shires filed for bankruptcy on April 8 in U.S. Bankruptcy Court in Worcester, Mass., after tax collectors---in pursuit of unpaid debts---went after the company's bank account.

Eastman officials have also agreed to keep Mr. Shires, who started the company in 1995, on staff.”

“Factoring companies”? Is that what they call loan sharks now?

BurckhardtS · by **BurckhardtS** » 2022-02-01 6:58 p.m.

[quote="harrisonreed"]What it is, is that pre-bankruptcy, S.E. Shires couldn't afford to talk about why their artists played on both their signature instrument AND the student version of their instrument in an hour-plus long interview over Zoom while young students posted questions in the comments about which horn was better. Post-bankruptcy, they now have the power and funds to do that. They are now so powerful that you seriously can either choose to buy the $2000 or the $6000 version of the same, post-bankruptcy instrument, and not be able to tell the difference while the pressure is high and the cameras are rolling. I'm not judging them here. Just reporting that all this happened, and not just with one artist.[/quote]

I'd love to see some primary sources on that Harrison. I'm not trying to be disparaging but I don't really buy that completely, and it seems you might be projecting some kind of personal gripe.

If I recall correctly, Eastman instruments (circa 2014-2016ish) were pretty different from standard Shires horns. I played a few of them and they were all pretty cheap feeling and inconsistent. You may be right about the Q series, but those are new as of around 2019.

What I'm trying to get at is that I don't think they had any kind of real grip on the "student instrument" space until fairly recently.

harrisonreed · by **harrisonreed** » 2022-02-01 7:08 p.m.

[quote="BurckhardtS"]<QUOTE author="harrisonreed" post_id="170270" time="1643754765" user_id="3642">
What it is, is that pre-bankruptcy, S.E. Shires couldn't afford to talk about why their artists played on both their signature instrument AND the student version of their instrument in an hour-plus long interview over Zoom while young students posted questions in the comments about which horn was better. Post-bankruptcy, they now have the power and funds to do that. They are now so powerful that you seriously can either choose to buy the $2000 or the $6000 version of the same, post-bankruptcy instrument, and not be able to tell the difference while the pressure is high and the cameras are rolling. I'm not judging them here. Just reporting that all this happened, and not just with one artist.[/quote]

I'd love to see some primary sources on that Harrison. I'm not trying to be disparaging but I don't really buy that completely, and it seems you might be projecting some kind of personal gripe.

If I recall correctly, Eastman instruments (circa 2014-2016ish) were pretty different from standard Shires horns. I played a few of them and they were all pretty cheap feeling and inconsistent. You may be right about the Q series, but those are new as of around 2019.

What I'm trying to get at is that I don't think they had any kind of real grip on the "student instrument" space until fairly recently.
</QUOTE>

Just look on YouTube for any of their interviews they do with their artists. Lots of primary sources there. I'm specifically talking about the Q series, which has been around a long time now.

Do they even make Eastman by Shires anymore?

I have no personal gripe. I'm not judging either. I'm just saying, that when they were focusing all their efforts into custom instruments, they had no artists and had no Q series. Fact. Then they went bankrupt. Now, they have a whole bus full of artists,and videos of them that go on for a very long time, where they talk about how they play both their signature artist horn for some things and the equally unbelievable Q series version of the same instrument for other things, and they can't imagine not having both. Fact.

How anyone interprets that is up to them.

Bach5G · by **Bach5G** » 2022-02-01 7:30 p.m.

“I'm just saying, that when they were focusing all their efforts into custom instruments, they had no artists and had no Q series. Fact. Then they went bankrupt.”

I’m pretty sure this is incorrect as I recall wondering when SE Shires filed for bankruptcy whether endorsers like R Sauer got stiffed.

And from the ITA website:

“In 2011, the S.E. Shires Company released the Michael Davis signature trombone …”

BurckhardtS · by **BurckhardtS** » 2022-02-01 8:06 p.m.

"I'm just saying, that when they were focusing all their efforts into custom instruments, they had no artists and had no Q series. Fact."

The WSJ article on their bankruptcy has a picture of Maynard playing their trumpets and lists other artists later in the article. The bankruptcy was filed in 2014. Nope.

https://www.wsj.com/articles/BL-BANKB-19586

"Fact. Then they went bankrupt."

Quick Wayback machine check shows in 2012 mentions their artists on the FRONT PAGE of their website, AND has a page of their artists that has at least 30+ people there. Nope, not that either. Makes sense considering they started in 1995. Caveat, I don't know how they were endorsed back then so being an "Artist" may have meant they just played their horns and have a picture on their website.

<LINK_TEXT text="https://web.archive.org/web/20120101000 ... hires.com/">https://web.archive.org/web/20120101000000*/https://www.seshires.com/</LINK_TEXT>

If the argument was that since the bankruptcy and subsequent buyout they are becoming increasingly corporate, because of that they're not the organization they used to be, I'd buy that. Steve isn't even with the company anymore and had taken mostly an admin role after the buyout it seems.

There is also tons of merit to the argument that their QC is nowhere near what it used to be because the volume they deal with now. My own 2019 Shires axial valve was misaligned from the factory. Not great. Benn Hansson had fix it for me. I'm a sample size of one but I know other instances of spit keys falling off, slide locks unsoldering, etc. I'd even wager to say that you'd be have better return on investment buying a Q series at this point, because the quality of workmanship isn't all that far off anymore, and I'll stand behind that when I got to play the QAlessi and Alessi a few years ago.

More importantly, this seems to happen with nearly EVERY custom instrument manufacturer that gains widespread popularity. Remember when Bach was just Vincent Bach? Edwards? I imagine it's difficult decision when you become widely known and you are a small business to either decide to upscale production, or decide to decline orders so you can personally oversee all the orders. No wonder why Doug Elliott doesn't sell his mouthpieces to retailers and works his orders around his gigging schedule. The quality of his products has only got better over the years, but I'm imagining that there have been many times where he's had to either turn down or have high delay times on production to keep it that way. (maybe he could even tell us)

Seriously though, it took me about a minute to look up and disprove the "facts", and probably about 10 to write this out. Not to mention there are quite a few ex-Shires employees on this board who would probably be great primary sources. I'm not even sure I'd call an artist on an interview a "primary source" because they are probably winging those interviews in the first place and don't even know what to say.

E: FYI, not trying to be overly confrontational but I'm projecting my own pet peeve of people not understanding their own recall bias, and I think it's overall a great discussion to have in regards to instrument manufacturers and where they are headed and the logistics behind all of it.

harrisonreed · by **harrisonreed** » 2022-02-01 8:31 p.m.

[quote="BurckhardtS"]

The WSJ article on their bankruptcy has a picture of Maynard playing their trumpets and lists other artists later in the article. The bankruptcy was filed in 2014. Nope.

E: FYI, not trying to be overly confrontational but I'm projecting my own pet peeve of people not understanding their own recall bias, and I think it's overall a great discussion to have in regards to instrument manufacturers and where they are headed and the logistics behind all of it.[/quote]

I'm not arguing anything. I am making a point that, prior to the buyout, they made custom trombones for about $3-4000, and had few if any videos or ads involving endorsed artists. It wasn't a part of their marketing. You went in person and bought a horn from them. By around 2012, they already were in Eastman's corporate reach through the Eastman by Shires product line, and they started pushing artists.

I'm highly skeptical that Maynard is pictured anywhere playing a shires trumpet. He died in 2006. I don't think they started making trumpets until much later than that.

You should watch the video of the interview with their most promoted artist. It's recent. Shires is not the same company anymore. That's the point I'm trying to make. Steve is not involved at all anymore from what I gather.

They are still making great trombones. The marketing is absolutely ridiculous though.

BurckhardtS · by **BurckhardtS** » 2022-02-01 8:47 p.m.

[quote="harrisonreed"]

I'm not arguing anything. I am making a point that, prior to the buyout, they made custom trombones for about $3-4000, and had few if any videos or ads involving endorsed artists. It wasn't a part of their marketing. You went in person and bought a horn from them. By around 2012, they already were in Eastman's corporate reach through the Eastman by Shires product line, and they started pushing artists.

I'm highly skeptical that Maynard is pictured anywhere playing a shires trumpet. He died in 2006. I don't think they started making trumpets until much later than that.

You should watch the video of the interview with their most promoted artist. It's recent. Shires is not the same company anymore. That's the point I'm trying to make. Steve is not involved at all anymore from what I gather.

They are still making great trombones. The marketing is absolutely ridiculous though.[/quote]

My mistake, its' Doc Severinsen, I only caught a glimpse of the picture while scrolling past and mistook him.

FYI another 30 second Wayback machine search found me that they had been advertising at least since 2009. They were probably being made for years before then.

<LINK_TEXT text="https://web.archive.org/web/20100901000 ... hires.com/">https://web.archive.org/web/20100901000000*/https://www.seshires.com/</LINK_TEXT>

Steve officially left Shires in 2020 and it sounds like he was in a mostly admin role since the buyout. He is focusing mostly on his new Stephens Custom Horns.

https://www.stephenshorns.com/

I'm willing to bet he's doing that more on 'his terms' now.

Yes, marketing is getting ridiculous now with the social media sphere. That's a whole can of worms, LOL

GabrielRice · by **GabrielRice** » 2022-02-01 8:51 p.m.

Harrison, a lot of your facts are not correct. The Sauer, Bollinger, Michael Davis models definitely predate the Eastman purchase. I think the Colin Williams and George Curran models do as well. Doc Severinsen's involvement with trumpets goes back well before the Eastman purchase, as does my BU colleague Terry Everson's.

Eastman by Shires goes back at least a couple of years before 2009, when I left my job at the company.

Q Series did happen after the purchase.

This model of essentially the same design produced in different factories and sold at different price points is very common in the electric guitar and bass world. Fender produces standard factory instruments in California and also Mexico, and the price difference ranges from about 30% to 100% or more depending on the models. They also have a custom shop in California where you can spend at least 100% more than that. They also produce Squier instruments on exactly the same design platforms in Indonesia, for about half the price of the Mexican instruments.

Are the US instruments better than the Mexican instruments? Mostly yes. Are the Mexican ones better than the Indonesian ones? Mostly yes. What's the best bang for the buck? Depends on your needs. But they're all good because they're all based on strong fundamental designs, and Fender dominates the market for that reason.

BGuttman · by **BGuttman** » 2022-02-01 8:54 p.m.

There was a point where you would plunk down your money and wait TWO YEARS for your Shires trombone. And a lot of people did so because they were a cut above anything else out there (with the possible exception of Edwards). During this time I had a catastrophic accident with my Yamaha 682 bell (that Steve regulated when I bought it from Osmun). I had a friend working at Shires and he acted as a go-between to get a Shires 1G bell on my Yamaha. It took 9 months for it to be done. This was a part of the problem at Shires. Steve was a talented designer but a lousy businessman.

Eastman came to Shires for design help on their 500 series horns. The result was the 600 series that was sometimes called Eastman by Shires. Much improved instruments even though still student grade.

Eastman went on a buying spree of specialty instruments including Haynes Flutes and Shires Trombones. Basically Eastman provided business support but left the designs more or less unchanged. The purchase was very timely for Shires since they faced bankruptcy.

Incidentally, my friend had to leave Shires after about a year of intermittent paychecks. He couldn't afford to work there as a hobby. A lot of other Shires guys probably went that way as well.

Burgerbob · by **Burgerbob** » 2022-02-01 8:59 p.m.

Hey, it's great that Shires is still around. But don't be fooled, Eastman is pushing them hard to shut down the competitors. Stealing artists, starting young artist programs, bankrolling festivals, flooding market segments- it's all to win by not having any competition.

I'm glad to see a business survive, but it's the darkest timeline of the survival. Tromboneland is better when it's a bunch of small boutique shops vying for the top spot.

harrisonreed · by **harrisonreed** » 2022-02-01 11:03 p.m.

That's cool that it was still shires or whatever, but once the Eastman by Shires came out you can't tell us Eastman was uninvolved in Shires from that point until the buyout.

You're skirting around my assessment of their advertising practices by trying to say that I've got my dates wrong, which I probably do, and they weren't doing it before Eastman. And they weren't. So we're in agreement on that one.

Bach5G · by **Bach5G** » 2022-02-01 11:20 p.m.

BG said: “ Steve was a talented designer but a lousy businessman.”

I read an interview with Steve in which he said SE Shires Ltd. was doing fine until the 2008 Global Financial Crisis and that the company never recovered from that. Extraordinary circumstances. Might be a little unfair to dismiss Steve as a “lousy businessman” without knowing a lot more of the details.

BGuttman · by **BGuttman** » 2022-02-02 1:24 a.m.

[quote="Bach5G"]BG said: “ Steve was a talented designer but a lousy businessman.”

I read an interview with Steve in which he said SE Shires Ltd. was doing fine until the 2008 Global Financial Crisis and that the company never recovered from that. Extraordinary circumstances. Might be a little unfair to dismiss Steve as a “lousy businessman” without knowing a lot more of the details.[/quote]

I was just quoting my friend who worked there.

Note: it's easy to run a company when times are good. The good businessmen can still run companies when times are bad.

I've known Steve for a long time. Fantastic tech. I think his trombones are great. But having to wait 2 years for one (and this was way before 2008) is not a way to build a large operation.

Bach5G · by **Bach5G** » 2022-02-02 1:54 a.m.

The friend who left after a year of intermittent paycheques?

elmsandr · by **elmsandr** » 2022-02-02 7:28 a.m.

SOMEWHAT back to the original point... One of Steve's big things with his horns is the bell spinning. To the point of where he did almost all of that himself. Pre-bankruptcy can be somewhat shorthand for bells spun by Steve.

Just providing a reason that might explain why somebody would want to seek it out.

Andy

Matt_K · by **Matt_K** » 2022-02-02 7:41 a.m.

The difference between being a genius businessman that perfectly timed expansion, markets, etc. and a failed businessman, in my opinion, mostly boils down to luck despite what business coaching gurus, business consulting firms, etc. might otherwise tell you.

But Andy is spot on. The difference is that the earlier you go back in time for the bell, the higher the probability is that you have a bell spun specifically by Steve. It does seem that Eastman knows instrument production and has the resources for marketing. As to whether that translates to a more consistent product? I really haven't tried enough one way or the ther. I know I have a 2RVET7 made by Steve (from mid aughts) and a 7YLW8 bell from the Eastman era. Both are great bells.

There is definitely something about buying from a small, individually owned entity that I liked about Shires before their time with Eastman, despite mostly playing mass produced horns for most of the time I've been playing. I'm rather cheap though and there are a lot more used horns on the market from that segment, so that's often what I've gone with. But if I had the bread, I can definitely understand the appeal of a smaller shop where the owner is still involved in the craftstmanship.

Ellefson · by **Ellefson** » 2022-02-02 8:19 a.m.

[quote="Burgerbob"]Hey, it's great that Shires is still around. But don't be fooled, Eastman is pushing them hard to shut down the competitors. Stealing artists, starting young artist programs, bankrolling festivals, flooding market segments- it's all to win by not having any competition.

I'm glad to see a business survive, but it's the darkest timeline of the survival. Tromboneland is better when it's a bunch of small boutique shops vying for the top spot.[/quote]

^ This!

spencercarran · by **spencercarran** » 2022-02-02 8:58 a.m.

[quote="harrisonreed"]

Just look on YouTube for any of their interviews they do with their artists. Lots of primary sources there. I'm specifically talking about the Q series, which has been around a long time now.

Do they even make Eastman by Shires anymore?

I have no personal gripe. I'm not judging either. I'm just saying, that when they were focusing all their efforts into custom instruments, they had no artists and had no Q series. Fact. Then they went bankrupt. Now, they have a whole bus full of artists,and videos of them that go on for a very long time, where they talk about how they play both their signature artist horn for some things and the equally unbelievable Q series version of the same instrument for other things, and they can't imagine not having both. Fact.

How anyone interprets that is up to them.[/quote]

Posting a quick link to an example of that might make your point clearer, rather than sending every reader of your post off on a scavenger hunt.

[quote="Burgerbob"]Hey, it's great that Shires is still around. But don't be fooled, Eastman is pushing them hard to shut down the competitors. Stealing artists, starting young artist programs, bankrolling festivals, flooding market segments- it's all to win by not having any competition.

I'm glad to see a business survive, but it's the darkest timeline of the survival. Tromboneland is better when it's a bunch of small boutique shops vying for the top spot.[/quote]

:idk: No worse than Steinway monopoly.

GabrielRice · by **GabrielRice** » 2022-02-02 9:50 a.m.

I just shouldn't read this thread.

"Steve was a talented designer but a lousy businessman.” This is a very easy thing to say, but the Shires factory was open under Steve's primary ownership longer than the Bach factories under Vincent Bach.

[quote="Burgerbob"]Hey, it's great that Shires is still around. But don't be fooled, Eastman is pushing them hard to shut down the competitors. Stealing artists, starting young artist programs, bankrolling festivals, flooding market segments- it's all to win by not having any competition.

I'm glad to see a business survive, but it's the darkest timeline of the survival. Tromboneland is better when it's a bunch of small boutique shops vying for the top spot.[/quote]

How is funding promotional activities that benefit a lot of people "shutting down the competition?" How does a young artist program do that? What part of the market segment is flooded by Shires? Edwards/Getzen does the same kinds of activities, produces high-quality instruments, and is in no danger I know about of folding. It's a great time to be a trombonist. Rath is selling instruments, Matt Walker is selling instruments, Greenhoe (now owned by Schilke - do you have a problem with that too?) is selling instruments. And so are Conn/Bach and Yamaha. I see no evidence of competition being shut down.

And there's no "stealing artists." If you're talking about Joe Alessi, he always liked Shires trombones but had a very good deal with Edwards, who made a trombone he also liked a lot. And remember, Steve Shires was working at Edwards when Joe switched from Bach; he designed the 321CF bell that was the Alessi bell for many years. They had a relationship going back a long time. Once Shires had the financial resources to give him a similar deal and make a trombone he likes even better, he chose to go that way. That instrument was Steve's last R&D project before leaving the company. I imagine something similar happened with Marshall Gilkes, but I don't know anything firsthand.

You want a bunch of small boutique shops? You play modified Bachs from after the Selmer buyout! Under pressure from Shires and Edwards, Bach is finally doing some real innovation with trombones. THAT'S good for tromboneland.

----------------------------------------

Finally, a little info about bells. Yes, for years Steve was the only person at the factory who spun bells. It's not an easy task, especially for thinner bells like the 2RVE or 7YLW, requiring both strength and touch, and experience to know when the pressure you're applying is about to tear the sheet metal. Once production was at a certain volume, it was clear to him that it was impractical to have the president of the company, who was also responsible for making business things happen, be the only person at that step of production. So he tried for years to train somebody else but was unable to find someone who had the touch to do it successfully and consistently...until finally he did. That guy started doing a lot of the bell spinning before the Eastman purchase and continues to do it now. His bells are beautifully made. I'm sure he will train the next bell spnner, and I imagine he's trying to find the right person now.

BGuttman · by **BGuttman** » 2022-02-02 10:18 a.m.

Bach5g, let's not get testy here. Steve made great trombones. He opened a shop making the trombone equivalent of Haynes flutes. But in order to keep his company open he'd need to charge $5,000 more than Bach or Conn. Is his trombone $5,000 better than Bach or Conn? I don't think so. And if he did charge that much he wouldn't have much in the way of sales, which would further limit his market penetration.

While paying a $1,000 premium for a top line instrument would appeal to serious students and well-heeled amateurs, the people in this market really don't need this level of instrument. I know I was fine with my Yamaha 682G until it met its accident requiring a bell transplant. The bell alone cost as much as the original horn did some 10 years earlier. I'm not a gear head. I know that practice will do more for my playing than spending money on a new horn.

The big limiting factor of Chinese horns (I'm excluding Jupiter here since they are technically not made in Mainland China) has been a rather casual adherence of Chinese makers to Quality Control and Process Uniformity. Yamaha made their great contribution by optimizing their process to minimize the need for repair/rework. The Chinese just ignored it. A Chinese horn could come out OK or awful. Sales agents would buy a bunch and weed out the really bad ones, essentially doing the QC themselves. This has been the approach of Wessex and Jim Laabs. John Packer imposed his own quality standards on the Chinese. Both Steve Shires and Mick Rath worked with Chinese makers to improve designs and process (Shires with Eastman) and the result has been a significant improvement in Chinese instrument manufacture.

ithinknot · by **ithinknot** » 2022-02-02 10:29 a.m.

[quote="GabrielRice"]the Shires factory was open under Steve's primary ownership longer than the Bach factories under Vincent Bach[/quote]

1922 (incorporation) - 1961 (Selmer purchase), vs 1995 - 2014

?

Without getting into the rest of the specifics, it's depressing that it's this hard to stay in business while taking care of your employees to first world standards, making a product generally recognized as excellent, and experiencing consistent demand for said product. If musicians' earnings were even slightly more in line with their requisite qualifications and experience, horns could and should cost more.

BGuttman · by **BGuttman** » 2022-02-02 1:02 p.m.

[quote="ithinknot"]...

Without getting into the rest of the specifics, it's depressing that it's this hard to stay in business while taking care of your employees to first world standards, making a product generally recognized as excellent, and experiencing consistent demand for said product. If musicians' earnings were even slightly more in line with their requisite qualifications and experience, horns could and should cost more.[/quote]

This has been a problem for a lot of First World companies, not just music related. The US and EU have restrictions on manufacturing operations that can seriously alter your ability to produce. Add to this the fact that US or EU salaries are 3-10 times the salaries of Chinese workers doing similar operations and you begin to see why there is so much off-shoring of manufacturing. I put in 17 years with a company that decided to move the manufacturing from two US plants to China (including the one I worked at). All I got for my loyalty was a command not to let the door hit me in the a$$ on the way out.

Burgerbob · by **Burgerbob** » 2022-02-02 1:34 p.m.

[quote="GabrielRice"]

How is funding promotional activities that benefit a lot of people "shutting down the competition?" How does a young artist program do that? What part of the market segment is flooded by Shires? Edwards/Getzen does the same kinds of activities, produces high-quality instruments, and is in no danger I know about of folding. It's a great time to be a trombonist. Rath is selling instruments, Matt Walker is selling instruments, Greenhoe (now owned by Schilke - do you have a problem with that too?) is selling instruments. And so are Conn/Bach and Yamaha. I see no evidence of competition being shut down.

You want a bunch of small boutique shops? You play modified Bachs from after the Selmer buyout! Under pressure from Shires and Edwards, Bach is finally doing some real innovation with trombones. THAT'S good for tromboneland.
[/quote]

I'm sorry, Gabe. I had a long post all typed up, but it just boils down to me being very dark about the post-capitalist hellscape that we inhabit. I don't necessarily blame Eastman for what they are doing- it's what they have to do to compete.

I play used Bachs because I can't really afford much of anything else without selling everything I own.

Nomsis · by **Nomsis** » 2022-02-02 5:09 p.m.

Hi, I am new here :)

And this seems like a really interesting discussion to me, because I play a Shires myself, namely the Pro-Select model which I bought about ten years ago (Which was a really big investment and my first "real" trombone back then :) ). So this seems to be a pre-eastman? I think I was told back then that this instrument was manufactured completely by Shires in-house, no eastman involved? But not completely sure. Does anyone know this exactly? How likely do you think it is that the bell was spun by Steve Shires?

At this time I had not heard of Shires anytime before and this was for sure partly me not knowing a lot, but since then Shires/Eastman seems to have really grown into a big business. Not sure if I like it, but not saying that is bad in general though.

GabrielRice · by **GabrielRice** » 2022-02-02 6:14 p.m.

[quote="Nomsis"]Hi, I am new here :)

And this seems like a really interesting discussion to me, because I play a Shires myself, namely the Pro-Select model which I bought about ten years ago (Which was a really big investment and my first "real" trombone back then :) ). So this seems to be a pre-eastman? I think I was told back then that this instrument was manufactured completely by Shires in-house, no eastman involved? But not completely sure. Does anyone know this exactly? How likely do you think it is that the bell was spun by Steve Shires?

At this time I had not heard of Shires anytime before and this was for sure partly me not knowing a lot, but since then Shires/Eastman seems to have really grown into a big business. Not sure if I like it, but not saying that is bad in general though.[/quote]

Pro Select is pre-Eastman, and the bell was almost certainly spun by Steve.

Bach5G · by **Bach5G** » 2022-02-02 6:20 p.m.

Hey Bruce. Not testy. We’re good.

Nomsis · by **Nomsis** » 2022-02-02 6:21 p.m.

[quote="GabrielRice"]

Pro Select is pre-Eastman, and the bell was almost certainly spun by Steve.[/quote]

Nice, thanks for the information!

Not that it would matter, the instrument will not suddenly change now, I just was curios about it.

Dennis · by **Dennis** » 2022-02-02 9:44 p.m.

[quote="BurckhardtS"]

Steve officially left Shires in 2020 and it sounds like he was in a mostly admin role since the buyout. He is focusing mostly on his new Stephens Custom Horns.

https://www.stephenshorns.com/

I'm willing to bet he's doing that more on 'his terms' now.

Yes, marketing is getting ridiculous now with the social media sphere. That's a whole can of worms, LOL[/quote]

Part of the terms of the sale to Eastman was that Steve would stay on for five years in a consulting role, another term of the sale is a non-compete clause. (These are pretty standard terms in any merger/acquisition.) I'm not privy to the contract terms, so I don't know how long the non-compete clause is effective. It might be a lifetime non-compete: Steve Shires cannot produce trumpets/trombones ever again. It's pretty clear that part of the non-compete is that he cannot sell brass instruments under the Shires name, hence Stephens Horns. If I were an Eastman negotiator I would push for a lifetime exclusion as my opening position and settle for exclusive ownership of the Shires brand.

Based on what I've seen of mergers and acquisitions in the Pharma world I think it's unlikely that Steve was involved in an administrative role. Eastman would want to get things converted to their policies and practices as quickly as practical. You wouldn't want the former owner in there. What is likely is that Shires was engaged in engineering development and manufacturing. On the manufacturing side, I'm certain that his duty was to find and train up successors (note the plural) in bell spinning. (It's pretty clear that bell spinning was the manufacturing bottleneck at Shires, and expanding the product line would require relieving that bottleneck. You relieve the bottleneck by having more than one employee spinning bells.) On the engineering side, it looks to me like the job was developing the Q euphs, and at least the initial stages of the rumored Custom Series euphs.

Debt factoring companies are the business equivalent of payday loan shops. These companies make loans using a business' accounts receivable as collateral. They are very short-term loans (think weeks at most), and carry pretty crazy annualized interest rates. The point is that they are not intended to be long-term loan. I wish Steve had had a partner to manage the business side of S.E. Shires.

Burgerbob · by **Burgerbob** » 2022-02-02 9:49 p.m.

Stephen has started making trombones again, btw.

Dennis · by **Dennis** » 2022-02-02 10:11 p.m.

[quote="Burgerbob"]... but it just boils down to me being very dark about the post-capitalist hellscape that we inhabit. I don't necessarily blame Eastman for what they are doing- it's what they have to do to compete.
[/quote]

I'm a little (but just a little) more optimistic about things. Pandemics have a way of changing social structures. The plague had a lot to do with the end of serfdom in western Europe. Suddenly, peasants had choices available, and they were able to "negotiate" to a degree with feudal landowners.

We are seeing something similar beginning to happen with workers as we discover what the post-COVID normal is going to be. Owners and managers want their knowledge workers back in-house. Many of us aren't at all interested in going back to the office on a 40 hr/week basis. We will see how this plays out.

At the lower end of the wage scale, these workers have options: higher paying jobs with less job hassle.

What is interesting is that owners were happy to blame market forces for low wages for jobs in the service sector. Now that the shoe is on the other foot, and market forces should be driving wages up the market is suddenly no longer relevant. Again, we will see how this all plays out.

Burgerbob · by **Burgerbob** » 2022-02-02 10:16 p.m.

[quote="Dennis"]

I'm a little (but just a little) more optimistic about things. Pandemics have a way of changing social structures. The plague had a lot to do with the end of serfdom in western Europe. Suddenly, peasants had choices available, and they were able to "negotiate" to a degree with feudal landowners.
[/quote]

I wish I could be as optimistic. All I see is more offshoring of trombone making, as American (or European) workers want higher wages and better benefits (which they should). Those offshore workers, whether Chinese, Indian, etc. don't have the same united worker power that they do in the US or Europe, so they take the brunt of it.

Dennis · by **Dennis** » 2022-02-02 10:24 p.m.

[quote="Burgerbob"]Stephen has started making trombones again, btw.[/quote]

Really? That's interesting to know. Has this been generally announced?

Dennis · by **Dennis** » 2022-02-02 10:41 p.m.

[quote="Burgerbob"]All I see is more offshoring of trombone making, as American (or European) workers want higher wages and better benefits (which they should). Those offshore workers, whether Chinese, Indian, etc. don't have the same united worker power that they do in the US or Europe, so they take the brunt of it.[/quote]

I'm only slightly more optimistic than you are. In my first career I was an academic. When I look at what is going on in higher education today I am very glad I got out when I did. Academic administration is growing, and the teaching and research faculties are shrinking. Instead of hiring tenure-track faculty, the administrators want to hire term adjuncts. No job security and they pay them a lot less. The over-supply of PhDs isn't helping matters. The American Association of University Professors (AAUP) is doing what it can, but university faculties are notoriously difficult to organize. I see many of the same patterns repeating in other sectors.

Burgerbob · by **Burgerbob** » 2022-02-03 12:42 a.m.

[quote="Dennis"]<QUOTE author="Burgerbob" post_id="170430" time="1643856578" user_id="3131">
Stephen has started making trombones again, btw.[/quote]

Really? That's interesting to know. Has this been generally announced?
</QUOTE>

GabrielRice · by **GabrielRice** » 2022-02-03 9:37 a.m.

[quote="Burgerbob"]I wish I could be as optimistic. All I see is more offshoring of trombone making, as American (or European) workers want higher wages and better benefits (which they should). Those offshore workers, whether Chinese, Indian, etc. don't have the same united worker power that they do in the US or Europe, so they take the brunt of it.[/quote]

It's been a global economy for a long time now, Aidan.

Meanwhile, Shires is undergoing a major expansion of its Massachusetts factory right now.

GabrielRice · by **GabrielRice** » 2022-02-03 9:51 a.m.

And Dennis, you're correct on some of your suppositions but not others.

Steve's role under the Eastman ownership was not administrative, yes. It was R&D and artist relations. I don't think he had much to do with the euphoniums, though I'm not sure about that. The last big project he worked on was the Alessi model, which was finalized and introduced shortly before he left.

During the time I was working there - and managing aspects of the production schedule - bells were never the bottleneck to my memory. Valve sections - which are much more complicated to manufacture - were most often what we were waiting for to get instruments out the door.

Steve is now living in Vermont, where he has a basement workshop in his home. He's building French horns under the name Stephens Horns, and because he is a single-man shop he's outsourcing many parts, many of which are made to his specification for his designs. His non-compete clause for trumpets and trombones has just expired, and he is gearing up to make trombones in a similar fashion. He actually subbed into the Vermont Symphony with me in December, playing a trombone that he finished assembling just a couple of days before. He sounded great on it.

TomRiker · by **TomRiker** » 2022-02-03 10:58 a.m.

[quote="GabrielRice"]And Dennis, you're correct on some of your suppositions but not others.

Steve's role under the Eastman ownership was not administrative, yes. It was R&D and artist relations. I don't think he had much to do with the euphoniums, though I'm not sure about that. The last big project he worked on was the Alessi model, which was finalized and introduced shortly before he left.

During the time I was working there - and managing aspects of the production schedule - bells were never the bottleneck to my memory. Valve sections - which are much more complicated to manufacture - were most often what we were waiting for to get instruments out the door.

Steve is now living in Vermont, where he has a basement workshop in his home. He's building French horns under the name Stephens Horns, and because he is a single-man shop he's outsourcing many parts, many of which are made to his specification for his designs. His non-compete clause for trumpets and trombones has just expired, and he is gearing up to make trombones in a similar fashion. He actually subbed into the Vermont Symphony with me in December, playing a trombone that he finished assembling just a couple of days before. He sounded great on it.[/quote]
Gabe I thought the trombone in Aiden's pic looked a lot like the closed wrap version of the Brass Ark Model 2 trombone. I think Noah is on here and would know, but do you know if Steve is involved with those? Just curious since his french horns are for sale there.

Dennis · by **Dennis** » 2022-02-03 12:57 p.m.

[quote="GabrielRice"]And Dennis, you're correct on some of your suppositions but not others.

Steve's role under the Eastman ownership was not administrative, yes. It was R&D and artist relations. I don't think he had much to do with the euphoniums, though I'm not sure about that. The last big project he worked on was the Alessi model, which was finalized and introduced shortly before he left.

During the time I was working there - and managing aspects of the production schedule - bells were never the bottleneck to my memory. Valve sections - which are much more complicated to manufacture - were most often what we were waiting for to get instruments out the door.

Steve is now living in Vermont, where he has a basement workshop in his home. He's building French horns under the name Stephens Horns, and because he is a single-man shop he's outsourcing many parts, many of which are made to his specification for his designs. His non-compete clause for trumpets and trombones has just expired, and he is gearing up to make trombones in a similar fashion. He actually subbed into the Vermont Symphony with me in December, playing a trombone that he finished assembling just a couple of days before. He sounded great on it.[/quote]

Thanks for the correction, Gabe.

I'd forgotten that Shires made their valves in-house. That is unusual in a small-scale manufacturer. Even Vincent Bach didn't make rotary valves in-house until the move to Elkhart. I'm not sure if Bach built their own piston valve blocks prior to Elkhart or not.

Bach5G · by **Bach5G** » 2022-02-03 2:04 p.m.

So I want to buy a Shires trombone. Do I buy a new S.E. Shires Co. Inc Joseph Alessi model or do I buy a “Steve’s Trombone”?

Posaunus · by **Posaunus** » 2022-02-03 3:18 p.m.

[quote="Bach5G"]So I want to buy a Shires trombone. Do I buy a new S.E. Shires Co. Inc Joseph Alessi model or do I buy a “Steve’s Trombone”?[/quote]

Perhaps it depends on whether you want it soon, or are willing to wait a year or two and pay $6,000-$8,000+ for one of Steve's new creations.

I bet it'll play like a dream!

Bach5G · by **Bach5G** » 2022-02-03 4:36 p.m.

[quote="Posaunus"]<QUOTE author="Bach5G" post_id="170468" time="1643915055" user_id="2999">
So I want to buy a Shires trombone. Do I buy a new S.E. Shires Co. Inc Joseph Alessi model or do I buy a “Steve’s Trombone”?[/quote]

Perhaps it depends on whether you want it soon, or are willing to wait a year or two and pay $6,000-$8,000+ for one of Steve's new creations.

I bet it'll play like a dream!
</QUOTE>

Assume $5750, roughly on par with an Alessi/Shires, a bit more than M&W, and an 8 month wait vs. off-the-shelf.

Posaunus · by **Posaunus** » 2022-02-03 4:50 p.m.

[quote="Bach5G"]<QUOTE author="Posaunus" post_id="170470" time="1643919499" user_id="158">
Perhaps it depends on whether you want it soon, or are willing to wait a year or two and pay $6,000-$8,000+ for one of Steve's new creations. I bet it'll play like a dream![/quote]

Assume $5750, roughly on par with an Alessi/Shires, a bit more than M&W, and an 8 month wait vs. off-the-shelf.
</QUOTE>

You got a quote from Steve?

If I had the $$$, and if I had a place to play it (and if I were a better trombonist), I wouldn't hesitate to place an order. These trombones will become collector's items! :idea:

Bach5G · by **Bach5G** » 2022-02-03 5:42 p.m.

No. “Assume”. I estimated $5750 after looking at prices from Shires and M&W (who, I think, are also running a small shop building their own designs). For discussion purposes.

JohnL · by **JohnL** » 2022-02-03 5:46 p.m.

[quote="Burgerbob"]

[/quote]
That's a classic look; like something from the 1920's.

Or is it actually from the 1920's? Was any information posted beyond what's seen here?

Burgerbob · by **Burgerbob** » 2022-02-03 5:52 p.m.

He's posted a couple other things as well. It's all his make.

ArtL · by **ArtL** » 2022-02-03 6:47 p.m.

That's a neat instrument; TIS, bow guard, nice wrap, what looks to be a very large throated bell (maybe it is just the lighting). Clever placement of the bow over the valve... :biggrin:

TheBoneRanger · by **TheBoneRanger** » 2022-02-04 3:06 a.m.

[quote="Bach5G"]Assume $5750, roughly on par with an Alessi/Shires, a bit more than M&W, and an 8 month wait vs. off-the-shelf.[/quote]

Predicting the price and lead time for a product that we haven’t even seen yet. The forum at its best!!

Andrew

harrisonreed · by **harrisonreed** » 2022-02-04 5:10 a.m.

The french horns are over $10k, I believe. That might give you a ballpark on the trombones

CalgaryTbone · by **CalgaryTbone** » 2022-02-04 12:31 p.m.

[quote="harrisonreed"]The french horns are over $10k, I believe. That might give you a ballpark on the trombones[/quote]

A lot of professional model French Horns go for over $10,000. They are almost always more expensive than comparable trombones.

Jim Scott

Bach5G · by **Bach5G** » 2022-02-04 1:12 p.m.

<LINK_TEXT text="https://store.paxman.co.uk/paxman-model ... 2x19419194">https://store.paxman.co.uk/paxman-model-20-full-double-french-horn-c2x19419194</LINK_TEXT>

$10,800 USD.

A Conn 8D about half that at B&W. An 88H is about $3200.

JohnL · by **JohnL** » 2022-02-04 5:44 p.m.

[quote="ArtL"]That's a neat instrument; TIS, bow guard, nice wrap, what looks to be a very large throated bell (maybe it is just the lighting). Clever placement of the bow over the valve... :biggrin:[/quote]

I don't think the intent was to hide the valve. It looks like the same horn he played for a video posted to the Stephens Custom Horns Facebook page, and there's no attempt to hide the valve there.

It looks a lot like a 1920's 14H or 70H. Most of us have to be content with dreaming of owning an instrument like that or, if we're lucky, buying a vintage one and living with the quirks, both original and age-related. Steve Shires, on the other hand, just sits down at his workbench and builds a whole new instrument.

harrisonreed · by **harrisonreed** » 2022-02-04 5:57 p.m.

[quote="CalgaryTbone"]<QUOTE author="harrisonreed" post_id="170490" time="1643969448" user_id="3642">
The french horns are over $10k, I believe. That might give you a ballpark on the trombones[/quote]

A lot of professional model French Horns go for over $10,000. They are almost always more expensive than comparable trombones.

Jim Scott
</QUOTE>

Yes, exactly. So, by extrapolation, you take the cost of, say a Conn 8D vs an 88H ($5300 vs $3200), and you might get an idea of what Steve is charging for that trombone. I wasn't trying to imply that the trombone would cost the same as his horn.

Should be about $6100, using that method.

jjenkins · by **jjenkins** » 2022-02-04 7:51 p.m.

[quote="Dennis"]

I'd forgotten that Shires made their valves in-house. That is unusual in a small-scale manufacturer. Even Vincent Bach didn't make rotary valves in-house until the move to Elkhart. I'm not sure if Bach built their own piston valve blocks prior to Elkhart or not.[/quote]

Matthew Walker (M&W) manufactures his valves in-house, too.

slipmo · by **slipmo** » 2022-02-04 8:20 p.m.

I will end the speculation for everyone. This is in fact a Stephen's trombone, model Brass Ark, a collaboration between the two of us. It is based on one of my 1916 Conn Symphony models and my 14H and was inspired by both of these trombones and I can say that the sonic DNA of both are captured well in this new creation. The bell and branch are red brass while the body tubing is phosphor bronze. The valve is a new Caidex rotary.

This particular "Brass Ark model" will be available in bell tuning or tuning in the slide versions.

Production will be limited. Stephen's trombones will be available at The Brass Ark. I will post an update there soon with pricing and specs/models available.

Posaunus · by **Posaunus** » 2022-02-04 8:38 p.m.

[quote="slipmo"]I will end the speculation for everyone. This is in fact a Stephen's trombone, model Brass Ark, a collaboration between the two of us.[/quote]

It's beautiful, Noah. Great visual representation of Steve Shires' craftsmanship. Congratulations to both of you. :good:

I presume no "E-pull?"

slipmo · by **slipmo** » 2022-02-04 8:46 p.m.

indeed, No E pull on this one. If someone really wanted E, we could make one of those cool coiled tuning slides like on some old Conn models with similar wraps.

Thank you!

Posaunus · by **Posaunus** » 2022-02-04 9:31 p.m.

[quote="slipmo"]If someone really wanted E, we could make one of those cool coiled tuning slides like on some old Conn models with similar wraps.

Thank you![/quote]

Noah,

I like that it's now "we!" You and Steve will make great partners. A creative force, for sure. Can't wait to see what's next! :good:

LowBrassJunkie · by **LowBrassJunkie** » 2022-02-05 2:35 p.m.

[quote="Burgerbob"]Hey, it's great that Shires is still around. But don't be fooled, Eastman is pushing them hard to shut down the competitors. Stealing artists, starting young artist programs, bankrolling festivals, flooding market segments- it's all to win by not having any competition.

I'm glad to see a business survive, but it's the darkest timeline of the survival. Tromboneland is better when it's a bunch of small boutique shops vying for the top spot.[/quote]

Yeeeeeeah, that's a bad take.

Burgerbob · by **Burgerbob** » 2022-02-05 3:07 p.m.

:idk:

LowBrassJunkie · by **LowBrassJunkie** » 2022-02-05 3:36 p.m.

Its incredible how many people on this forum have the audacity to hop on here and spew as much nonsense as they do. A slim number of people here have actually worked for a trombone manufacturer of any size, yet many of you speak as though you have the full picture because of something you read online, or from what you overheard at a convention. Until you are a part of the daily operations, business decisions, manufacturing decisions, or even choosing what case to use, you don't get to state many of the things being written here as fact.

You DON'T know what happens behind closed doors during artist negotiations. You DON'T know why a financial decision is made, and just because one brand is stenciling another does not "put them in their pocket", its just a business transaction. Its fair to argue about what era of production is best from a brand, because that is subjective. But this conversation is too over the top with misinformation and bad takes to be taken seriously without actual fact from the source themselves. And that's the problem, someone is going to read something here and believe it as fact.

Brands come and go, thats the way the world works. There will be big ones, and there will be small ones.

And on top of that, the blatant hypocrisy alone is something to marvel at. But that's for another time. Go practice.

Bach5G · by **Bach5G** » 2022-02-05 4:15 p.m.

“Blatant hypocrisy”?

Jimkinkella · by **Jimkinkella** » 2022-02-05 4:48 p.m.

It's almost like Noah loves old Conns....

Fantastic nickel bowguard!

To the original question, if it works for you, play it.

I remember Harley Davidson being owned by a bowling ball / nuclear reactor / cigarette company.

There are still some amazing bikes from that era.

If a particular technician / artist's vibe is your thing, go for it.

I've played some Minicks that I just didn't like.

Some of his other horns were fantastic.

Every piece is a little different.

Some things are a bit more consistent than others (to Gabe's comment on the guy spinning bells) (or a particular machine shop spinning and polishing mouthpieces) but for better or worse all of these things are a bit different than the next.

There are no Bach 5G pieces the same as the next.

The Chinese shops are capable of amazing work, it's all about what someone is asking them to do.

For students it's reasonable to recommend a decent to good larger manufacturer, but as individuals that tend to like weird stuff, gotta play the thing in person.

My opinion only

If you dig a horn, buy it!

If you don't, don't.

ZacharyThornton · by **ZacharyThornton** » 2022-02-05 5:08 p.m.

[quote="LowBrassJunkie"]Its incredible how many people on this forum have the audacity to hop on here and spew as much nonsense as they do. A slim number of people here have actually worked for a trombone manufacturer of any size, yet many of you speak as though you have the full picture because of something you read online, or from what you overheard at a convention. Until you are a part of the daily operations, business decisions, manufacturing decisions, or even choosing what case to use, you don't get to state many of the things being written here as fact.

You DON'T know what happens behind closed doors during artist negotiations. You DON'T know why a financial decision is made, and just because one brand is stenciling another does not "put them in their pocket", its just a business transaction. Its fair to argue about what era of production is best from a brand, because that is subjective. But this conversation is too over the top with misinformation and bad takes to be taken seriously without actual fact from the source themselves. And that's the problem, someone is going to read something here and believe it as fact.

Brands come and go, thats the way the world works. There will be big ones, and there will be small ones.

And on top of that, the blatant hypocrisy alone is something to marvel at. But that's for another time. Go practice.[/quote]
What are your qualifications to say others know nothing? You are anonymous, do you know how the music retail business works?

Not saying I know everything, but I have been in it for almost two decades from all the sides. But I am smart enough to be myself and say nothing.

harrisonreed · 2022-02-05 5:54 p.m.

[quote="LowBrassJunkie"]Its incredible how many people on this forum have the audacity to hop on here and spew as much nonsense as they do. A slim number of people here have actually worked for a trombone manufacturer of any size, yet many of you speak as though you have the full picture because of something you read online, or from what you overheard at a convention. Until you are a part of the daily operations, business decisions, manufacturing decisions, or even choosing what case to use, you don't get to state many of the things being written here as fact.[/quote]

Said the person who doesn't know where to order a valve paddle from.

Look, this whole thread is nonsense. I took my jab only because I've seen Shires go from marketing trombones through word of mouth and shop visits, to hour long "interviews" with professionals that amount to flogging Q series horns. I don't think China taking over brass development from one of the best in the business is a good thing because the innovation will eventually stop. It hasn't happened yet, but that's where it's pointing.

Shires makes great trombones. If the advertisements are to be believed, the Q series are Chinese made/partially made copies that are just as good as the best Shires trombones. I think it's still permissible in society to not be happy about that.

Bach5G · by **Bach5G** » 2022-02-05 6:04 p.m.

I don’t think innovation is going to stop because Eastman bought SE Shires Co Inc. out of bankruptcy.

harrisonreed · by **harrisonreed** » 2022-02-05 6:37 p.m.

[quote="Bach5G"]I don’t think innovation is going to stop because Eastman bought SE Shires Co Inc. out of bankruptcy.[/quote]

You caught me as I was editing my post to qualify that. It hasn't happened yet. We got the twin valve, for sure (whoopee). It may never happen. In perfect world, we get better and better Q models, until they are indistinguishable from the custom horns other than the massive discount. And then, seriously, why would you buy a custom series? I don't doubt that they will become indistinguishable. But how can that be a good thing for innovation?

Bach5G · 2022-02-05 6:54 p.m.

But, meanwhile, as SE Shires Co Inc perfect their Q series, makers like Getzen/Edwards, M&W, Rath, Instrument Innovations, Willson and others will continue to innovate. Shires may become like Yamaha.

Burgerbob · by **Burgerbob** » 2022-02-05 6:54 p.m.

[quote="Bach5G"]But, meanwhile, as SE Shires Co Inc perfect their Q series, makers like Getzen/Edwards, M&W, Instrument Innovations, Willson and others will continue to innovate.[/quote]

Or go out of business, like usually happens.

Bach5G · by **Bach5G** » 2022-02-05 6:57 p.m.

To be replaced by new innovators. Remember in the late 80s, Bach and Conn were pretty much the only game in town. The trend over the past 40 years has been towards innovation not the opposite.

GabrielRice · by **GabrielRice** » 2022-02-05 9:11 p.m.

Why so much darkness?

Eastman purchased the Haynes flute company, which had stagnated into near irrelevance after being one of the great American flute makers decades ago. They poured money into the business, buying new equipment, moving to a larger facility outside of Boston, and hiring some excellent designers. Haynes is back. Professional flutists are taking them seriously again.

So far Eastman has a better record of respecting the brands they buy and invest in than other companies that have done the same.

Q series are not just cheaper versions of the custom series made elsewhere. There are design and material differences, though the modular framework is compatible.

As I said before, this is nearly identical to the <I>incredibly successful</I> model of Fender/Squier guitars and basses. 3-4 price point ranges based on the same design concepts with quite a lot of parts compatibility between them, so that you can bring in customers at various stages of their careers and aspirations. And while Fender dominates the market - in a way that Shires/Eastman is not even approaching - there is plenty of worthy competition.

GabrielRice · by **GabrielRice** » 2022-02-05 9:15 p.m.

And then, also like Fender, the founder and original innovator of the company is no longer there and is continuing his R&D under a different name. Maybe he will move on from Stephens Horns at some point and start a third company...also like Leo Fender...who left us some more iconic designs at Ernie Ball/Music Man and then G&L.

ZacharyThornton · 2022-02-05 9:16 p.m.

I think you are too close to see why some people are scared Mr. Rice. You are an amazing musician and person that I respect you greatly.

Matt_K · by **Matt_K** » 2022-02-05 10:51 p.m.

Had to move a post. Warned the user. We do not allow specific, targeted name calling. Please keep it civil.

ZacharyThornton · by **ZacharyThornton** » 2022-02-05 10:58 p.m.

Oof. Did someone do something that dumb?

WilliamLang · by **WilliamLang** » 2022-02-05 11:04 p.m.

it does feel like shires is trying to corner the market a little (getting the young and rising players early, co-opting some of the summer festivals) but that's what companies do. also, in the end, it's trombones. there are more than enough good horns already existing in the world to let basically everyone have something close to what they want. i'm more curious what people do with them then what the horns actually are.

with that said, i have a really really old shires red brass bell that i love very much and will never get rid of, unless my kid wants to seriously play trombone in the future!

Tbarh · by **Tbarh** » 2022-02-06 3:32 a.m.

[quote="slipmo"]I will end the speculation for everyone. This is in fact a Stephen's trombone, model Brass Ark, a collaboration between the two of us. It is based on one of my 1916 Conn Symphony models and my 14H and was inspired by both of these trombones and I can say that the sonic DNA of both are captured well in this new creation. The bell and branch are red brass while the body tubing is phosphor bronze. The valve is a new Caidex rotary.

This particular "Brass Ark model" will be available in bell tuning or tuning in the slide versions.

Production will be limited. Stephen's trombones will be available at The Brass Ark. I will post an update there soon with pricing and specs/models available.[/quote]

Wow... This is exciting News.. <EMOJI seq="1f44d" tseq="1f44d">👍</EMOJI><EMOJI seq="1f609" tseq="1f609">😉</EMOJI> I have a couple of questions.. My 1920 large symphony has a bigger taper than later 8H/88H's... Will this Model also have this taper?.. The Big brace at the back is not original to similar old Conns... How does that "come in to play"?.. The opera wheel is back??

Trond

harrisonreed · by **harrisonreed** » 2022-02-06 7:47 a.m.

Yeah, what was that about innovation? STEVE is still at it. The Stephen's trombone looks cool! I'm curious about the specs on the bell and the slide. "Steve post-bankruptcy" is more like it.

Matt_K · by **Matt_K** » 2022-02-06 8:12 a.m.

Also an interesting consideration is how popular horns are that have no innovation by definition, because they were made 60-90 years ago.

Also how there hasn't been mention of Butler, which [ur=<LINK_TEXT text="https://thelasttrombone.com/2018/11/20/ ... not-a-toy/">https://thelasttrombone.com/2018/11/20/my-new-carbon-fiber-bass-trombone-by-butler-trombones-this-is-not-a-toy/</LINK_TEXT>]Doug Yeo[/url] indicated:

We are witnessing one of the most significant developments in trombone design and manufacturing since the invention of the F-attachment in 1839.

Frankly, in my opinion, trombone actually has an absurd amount of innovation relative to other instruments. There isn't a company making trumpets, for example, with modular setups with 4 piston alternatives, for example. Ironically, the french horn was originally the target of the thayer valve but we hoovered that up too!

Kbiggs · by **Kbiggs** » 2022-02-06 1:45 p.m.

[quote="Matt K"]Also an interesting consideration is how popular horns are that have no innovation by definition, because they were made 60-90 years ago.
[/quote]

<YOUTUBE id="ZRVv2b-hL_0">https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ZRVv2b-hL_0</YOUTUBE>

Bach5G · by **Bach5G** » 2022-02-18 10:48 p.m.

[quote="TheBoneRanger"]<QUOTE author="Bach5G" post_id="170474" time="1643924207" user_id="2999">
Assume $5750, roughly on par with an Alessi/Shires, a bit more than M&W, and an 8 month wait vs. off-the-shelf.[/quote]

Predicting the price and lead time for a product that we haven’t even seen yet. The forum at its best!!

Andrew
</QUOTE>

Did you not read “assume”? Did you miss “Fir discussion purposes”?

Weighing in on a post you misread, misunderstood, or simply ignored. The forum at its best!!

TheBoneRanger · by **TheBoneRanger** » 2022-02-19 5:28 p.m.

[quote="Bach5G"]<QUOTE author="TheBoneRanger" post_id="170489" time="1643962008" user_id="2973">

Predicting the price and lead time for a product that we haven’t even seen yet. The forum at its best!!

Andrew[/quote]

Did you not read “assume”? Did you miss “Fir discussion purposes”?

Weighing in on a post you misread, misunderstood, or simply ignored. The forum at its best!!
</QUOTE>

:roll:

Assume does not mean “guess.”

“For discussion purposes” does not imply “unless you disagree with my thoughts.”

Andrew

CTBrass · by **CTBrass** » 2022-02-20 7:12 a.m.

This is an interesting discussion, for sure. It’s very easy these days to become preoccupied with equipment and the various innovations and multitude of options. However, I know and have played many times with someone who plays in two symphony orchestras, and honestly has one of the best sounds I’ve ever heard and he plays an Elkhart Conn 88H. Huge beautiful sound despite the stereotype that conns can get “edgy” when played at louder volumes. It’s interesting to pursue all of these options and innovations, but at the end of the day as someone else stated here, the only think that matters is finding a horn that speaks to you, and then pursuing excellence with it.

Posaunus · by **Posaunus** » 2022-02-20 11:48 a.m.

I absolutely agree with CTbrass. You can produce a marvelous sound with almost any "professional" level trombone - especially a Conn 88H ! :good:

We all have different preferences; it's up to us to find the equipment that works for us, and to make the best of it.

CheeseTray · by **CheeseTray** » 2022-02-20 1:27 p.m.

An important fact that hangs in the background regarding the health and ongoing viability of these high-end instrument/equipment businesses is the size of the market for custom horns and mouthpieces. That market is too small and too large at the same time. Certainly, it is small enough to significantly inhibit the economies of scale necessary to keep pricing competitive while meeting demand. The market is too large because, in its start-up form, a shop cannot always afford to purchase precision machinery to scale up production, or alternatively, have a large enough income stream to afford top level craftsmen capable of executing production by hand.

These businesses rise to prominence because of the masterful quality of their builds, but then quickly hit a wall in their ability to meet the demand created by the quality of their work (and the buzz it generates). The business owner is now in the position of being profitable - but not profitable enough to hire (and/or train) other artisans to meet burgeoning demand. (The fact that Steve Shires felt the need to personally spin bells to meet his brand standard illustrates this point.) Eventually, the shop gets perennially behind on filling orders and community grousing and dissatisfaction ensues. (Think Shires, Greg Black, etc.) Edwards dodged this bullet by growing out of Getzen; an established mass production company with the resources to support a custom off-shoot and an experienced, built-in management team to foster its growth.

But most custom brands don't begin this way. Ultimately, they get 'hung' by a market big enough to exceed the capacity of a cottage industry sized business, but too small to support any real scaling up, and then end up languishing between the proverbial rock and hard place without viable options.

The commercial environment is a mismatch of the level of skill required to create a superior, labor-intensive-to-produce product; the size of the market consuming it; and the base pricing expectations set by readily available, mass-produced alternatives (which, though not as good, are certainly suitable for most of the consumer base.)

Professional players will always modify instruments to suit them, but as a market, they alone are too small to drive significant investment and development of new products - they stick with what works once they get it because reliability is everything to a professional; if you trust it, stick with it. However, the models developed for them and their endorsements drive the second order demand (by students, avocational players with disposable income, and high-performing amateurs) large enough to justify production. Sadly, there just aren't many reasonable options available for a small business to grow into the right-sized sweet spot.

I suspect Doug Elliott would be able to offer some interesting insights on all of this as a result of negotiating this terrain for so long. I've heard that talented precision machinists are rare birds that come with a high price.

Posaunus · by **Posaunus** » 2022-02-20 2:31 p.m.

Excellent analysis, CheeseTray.

MrHCinDE · 2022-02-20 4:31 p.m.

CheeseTray, there are certainly enough examples which have gone the way you describe so I’d agree with your analysis in those cases and that what you describe can, and does, occur.

On the other hand, I’d like to be optimistic that there is still a chance for small to medium high quality makers.

What are your thoughts on the likes of Rath, Thein, Lawler, Schmelzer, Kromat, Inderbinen, Schagerl etc.? What future do you see for them? Are they and others all doomed in the long run in your view?

One problem could be that some, but not all, may struggle in the long term if they are very reliant on a small number (perhaps even one or two!) of individual craftsmen but even in those cases, until those craftsmen retire without passing their knowledge on I would like to think that they will carry on making and selling quality products without reaching the point of customer dissatisfaction. Hopefully many of them have or will also pass their knowledge on to the next generation so they can keep those companies going or go on to form their own companies in the future.

Some of the examples I listed are priced very much at the higher end, but still seem to be selling horns so there seems to be enough market to sustain them. Others are actually not that much more expensive than the ‘professional’ models from the larger scale competitors.

Bach5G · by **Bach5G** » 2022-02-20 6:36 p.m.

I’m waiting for the day Eastman buys King/Conn/Bach.

Maybe the future is Eastman and Yamaha on one hand and a bunch of small makers (Steve Shires, Mick Rath. Matthew Walker and others) on the other.

CheeseTray · by **CheeseTray** » 2022-02-20 6:40 p.m.

1. Thanks, Posaunus.

2. MrHCinDE, I'm actually not at all pessimistic about the future of high-end horn building or mouthpiece making. I think that the combination of innovative makers, a greater capacity for material analysis, and more sophisticated machine tools, bodes well for the future. That's even before considering the most important element - that the craftsmen making, modifying, and repairing instruments continue to innovate - continually raising the bar as well. In my personal experience, it seems that there are A LOT more world-class brass techs and quality mouthpiece makers now than at any time since I came up almost 40 years ago.

That being said, I'm a trombone player and not versed in the possibilities/challenges of 'industrializing' artisan-level craft. This is totally armchair quarterbacking on my part. I think that makers such as those you mentioned above, and new (innovative) ones as well, will always be around. Some will find the sweet spot and thrive. Others will struggle or fade. All will, to some extent, be subject to the whims of who's the 'it' thing of the moment.

I suppose that my point could be summed up by saying that I'm not sure that there is a legitimate solution to striking an ideal balance between, acceptable cost, quality, and scaling up to meet demand. The trombone community will probably always have to wait for items that, though partially mass-produced, are still mostly hand assembled with parts produced on too small a scale to be cheap. The community's consistent patience is actually a critical element of long term support for the viability of these businesses. Just my two cents.

BGuttman · by **BGuttman** » 2022-02-20 7:47 p.m.

We've had niche makers "forever". Minick was "the" guy back about 40 years ago. We have an awful lot today. Benson, M&W, Inderbinen, Haagmann, DaCarbo, and others I can't remember. Some become larger because they have a supporting structure like Edwards (branch of Getzen) and now Shires (branch of Eastman). Some will have their time in the sun and then become desired relics like Minick. Or become forgotten like the Monet trombone.

We have some techs who can do wonderful modifications to conventional instruments. Steve Shires got his start making custom trombone parts at Osmun Brass (a bell section with a Thayer valve). Pros will generally use these folks to make custom instruments for themselves (and sometimes their students). We will (hopefully) continue to have people like this making innovations that the mainstream manufacturers will adopt.

Brass making isn't as fractured as orchestral strings, where luthiers make only a few instruments a year that command outrageous prices, while there are huge manufacturers making instruments for the rest of us.

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