Tell overture
- Bach5G
- Posts: 2874
- Joined: Apr 07, 2018
I don’t know how I made it this far without having to play the Tell overture but here I am at age 66.
Preferences re: starting on B nat’l in 7th as opposed to 2nd on the trigger?
Preferences re: starting on B nat’l in 7th as opposed to 2nd on the trigger?
- BGuttman
- Posts: 7368
- Joined: Mar 22, 2018
Reaching far enough to get the 7th position in tune is often chancy. Starting in T2 and going to 6th is often better. Going T2-T1-4 works for some as well.
If you can comfortably reach 7 for the B natural, it gives more of the movement in 1 direction.
If you don't have an attachment, you have no choice.
Find what works best for you.
If you can comfortably reach 7 for the B natural, it gives more of the movement in 1 direction.
If you don't have an attachment, you have no choice.
Find what works best for you.
- Burgerbob
- Posts: 6327
- Joined: Apr 23, 2018
Many of the pros use 7th. I've practiced it and played it, always with the valve. I'm more comfortable there.
- Doug_Elliott
- Posts: 4155
- Joined: Mar 22, 2018
I had to play it on a 3 week tour of China a few years ago and I took a straight .547 just to make air travel easier so I could carry on a smaller gig bag. Works better in 7th anyway.
- CalgaryTbone
- Posts: 1460
- Joined: May 10, 2018
I've played it both ways - current practice is starting in valve 2nd. Either way works, so try both and decide which way you prefer and stick to it after you've made the choice. Worst thing is to not have a "set" plan - recipe for trouble on the gig.
Jim Scott
Jim Scott
- Bach5G
- Posts: 2874
- Joined: Apr 07, 2018
Surely very few people play it like Bruce suggests: Trigger 2nd (B), then out to 6th (C) and so on?
According to Bruce: “Starting in T2 and going to 6th is often better.”
Seems to be the worst of both approaches.
According to Bruce: “Starting in T2 and going to 6th is often better.”
Seems to be the worst of both approaches.
- Kdanielsen
- Posts: 609
- Joined: Jul 28, 2019
Depends on how long your arms are. I’m a gorilla so I like 7th. I’ve never spent much time trying it with the valve, but I’ve heard it sound great that way (t2-t1-5).
- BGuttman
- Posts: 7368
- Joined: Mar 22, 2018
[quote="Bach5G"]Surely very few people play it like Bruce suggests: Trigger 2nd (B), then out to 6th (C) and so on?
According to Bruce: “Starting in T2 and going to 6th is often better.”
Seems to be the worst of both approaches.[/quote]
T2-T1-5-4... has 3 slide directions.
7-6-5-4... has one slide direction
T2-6-5-4... has two slide directions.
I was playing bass with a double indie, so I played Gb3-6-5-4 with a shorter first throw.
Note that the note before the run is E natural, which you are playing in 2nd. Getting off the long note to that first short note really should count as another slide direction, but if you are doing T1-6... it's the same direction. I don't advocate playing the E natural in 7th, though.
According to Bruce: “Starting in T2 and going to 6th is often better.”
Seems to be the worst of both approaches.[/quote]
T2-T1-5-4... has 3 slide directions.
7-6-5-4... has one slide direction
T2-6-5-4... has two slide directions.
I was playing bass with a double indie, so I played Gb3-6-5-4 with a shorter first throw.
Note that the note before the run is E natural, which you are playing in 2nd. Getting off the long note to that first short note really should count as another slide direction, but if you are doing T1-6... it's the same direction. I don't advocate playing the E natural in 7th, though.
- Bach5G
- Posts: 2874
- Joined: Apr 07, 2018
Playing the held E natural in 7 does produce an authentic sounding valve trombone effect. Not in a good way.
- stewbones43
- Posts: 333
- Joined: Oct 25, 2018
I think it depends on which version you are playing.
If you are playing the usual Breitkopf and Hartel/ Kalmus edition, then any of the above apply,
BUT, if you are doing the trombone III part from the Ricordi edition, marked Sinfonia, Trombone III(aggiunto) (meaning "not original, i.e. added later-often treated as "optional"), then start wherever you want on the slide, move it quickly and MIME! :good: <span class="emoji" title=":wink:">😉</span> :lol:
Cheers
Stewbones43
If you are playing the usual Breitkopf and Hartel/ Kalmus edition, then any of the above apply,
BUT, if you are doing the trombone III part from the Ricordi edition, marked Sinfonia, Trombone III(aggiunto) (meaning "not original, i.e. added later-often treated as "optional"), then start wherever you want on the slide, move it quickly and MIME! :good: <span class="emoji" title=":wink:">😉</span> :lol:
Cheers
Stewbones43
- CalgaryTbone
- Posts: 1460
- Joined: May 10, 2018
I came across a version online a couple of years ago where the first part (in alto clef) is up an octave for large portions of the storm scene, up to high B's. It would be a challenge to have to learn a new version after years of working up the standard version.
Jim Scott
Jim Scott
- LeTromboniste
- Posts: 1634
- Joined: Apr 11, 2018
[quote="Bach5G"]Playing the held E natural in 7 does produce an authentic sounding valve trombone effect. Not in a good way.[/quote]
Well since it was most definitely not written for valve trombones, good then :P
I think trigger or not is fine. I've done it both ways, but the last times I played that I preferred starting on 7. Much easier to play that without tension. Also there's a certain elegance to how Rossini wrote this part in a way that's both technically challenging but also extremely idiomatic for a straight Bb trombone.
Well since it was most definitely not written for valve trombones, good then :P
I think trigger or not is fine. I've done it both ways, but the last times I played that I preferred starting on 7. Much easier to play that without tension. Also there's a certain elegance to how Rossini wrote this part in a way that's both technically challenging but also extremely idiomatic for a straight Bb trombone.
- Kbiggs
- Posts: 1768
- Joined: Mar 24, 2018
[quote="LeTromboniste"]
I think trigger or not is fine. I've done it both ways, but the last times I played that I preferred starting on 7. Much easier to play that without tension. Also there's a certain elegance to how Rossini wrote this part in a way that's both technically challenging but also extremely idiomatic for a straight Bb trombone.[/quote]
Agreed. I’ve had some teachers say start on 7, others V2. On independent bass, it can be helpful to use the second valve (if tuned in G or Gb) to play the first three notes.
I think the primary thing, regardless of which positions are used, is that the notes are all clear, in tune, have a good front (attack) to them, and that they are played in time.
[quote="LeTromboniste"]
Well since it was most definitely not written for valve trombones, good then :P[/quote]
That’s interesting. I remember reading an article many years ago now (I don’t remember where) that suggested Rossini assumed valve trombones were used, or perhaps that valve trombones were the common instrument in Italy at the time. I believe Roger Norrington’s band even put out a recording with William Tell and a couple of other Romantic-era overtures, and used valve trombones on a few.
It’s always interesting to see what changes with further research into history, whether it’s science, music, art, cooking, table manners, etc., and other more common things. After all, we already know a LOT about the big events that have shaped history, like wars, treaties, and the like… and we continue to learn those lessons…
I think trigger or not is fine. I've done it both ways, but the last times I played that I preferred starting on 7. Much easier to play that without tension. Also there's a certain elegance to how Rossini wrote this part in a way that's both technically challenging but also extremely idiomatic for a straight Bb trombone.[/quote]
Agreed. I’ve had some teachers say start on 7, others V2. On independent bass, it can be helpful to use the second valve (if tuned in G or Gb) to play the first three notes.
I think the primary thing, regardless of which positions are used, is that the notes are all clear, in tune, have a good front (attack) to them, and that they are played in time.
[quote="LeTromboniste"]
Well since it was most definitely not written for valve trombones, good then :P[/quote]
That’s interesting. I remember reading an article many years ago now (I don’t remember where) that suggested Rossini assumed valve trombones were used, or perhaps that valve trombones were the common instrument in Italy at the time. I believe Roger Norrington’s band even put out a recording with William Tell and a couple of other Romantic-era overtures, and used valve trombones on a few.
It’s always interesting to see what changes with further research into history, whether it’s science, music, art, cooking, table manners, etc., and other more common things. After all, we already know a LOT about the big events that have shaped history, like wars, treaties, and the like… and we continue to learn those lessons…
- LeTromboniste
- Posts: 1634
- Joined: Apr 11, 2018
[quote="Kbiggs"]That’s interesting. I remember reading an article many years ago now (I don’t remember where) that suggested Rossini assumed valve trombones were used, or perhaps that valve trombones were the common instrument in Italy at the time. I believe Roger Norrington’s band even put out a recording with William Tell and a couple of other Romantic-era overtures, and used valve trombones on a few.
It’s always interesting to see what changes with further research into history, whether it’s science, music, art, cooking, table manners, etc., and other more common things. After all, we already know a LOT about the big events that have shaped history, like wars, treaties, and the like… and we continue to learn those lessons…[/quote]
Well yes for romantic Italian operas generally you can assume valve trombones. Rossini is a bit of a special case, his career having taken place slightly earlier. Despite living for four more decades after that, William Tell in 1829 was his last opera. And he was in Paris since 1824 (William Tell was also written for Paris). The valve trombone didn't really start to spread until the early 1830s, and initially in the lands under Viennese influence (Austria, Bohemia, North Italy).
It’s always interesting to see what changes with further research into history, whether it’s science, music, art, cooking, table manners, etc., and other more common things. After all, we already know a LOT about the big events that have shaped history, like wars, treaties, and the like… and we continue to learn those lessons…[/quote]
Well yes for romantic Italian operas generally you can assume valve trombones. Rossini is a bit of a special case, his career having taken place slightly earlier. Despite living for four more decades after that, William Tell in 1829 was his last opera. And he was in Paris since 1824 (William Tell was also written for Paris). The valve trombone didn't really start to spread until the early 1830s, and initially in the lands under Viennese influence (Austria, Bohemia, North Italy).
- Kbiggs
- Posts: 1768
- Joined: Mar 24, 2018
[quote="LeTromboniste"]
Well yes for romantic Italian operas generally you can assume valve trombones. Rossini is a bit of a special case, his career having taken place slightly earlier. Despite living for four more decades after that, William Tell in 1829 was his last opera. And he was in Paris since 1824 (William Tell was also written for Paris). The valve trombone didn't really start to spread until the early 1830s, and initially in the lands under Viennese influence (Austria, Bohemia, North Italy).[/quote]
Cool! Thanks!
Well yes for romantic Italian operas generally you can assume valve trombones. Rossini is a bit of a special case, his career having taken place slightly earlier. Despite living for four more decades after that, William Tell in 1829 was his last opera. And he was in Paris since 1824 (William Tell was also written for Paris). The valve trombone didn't really start to spread until the early 1830s, and initially in the lands under Viennese influence (Austria, Bohemia, North Italy).[/quote]
Cool! Thanks!