1938 Holton Symphony Model
- ithinknot
- Posts: 1339
- Joined: Jul 24, 2020
Thought others might find this interesting - from <LINK_TEXT text="https://www.jlandressbrass.com/shop/Tro ... 379320.htm">https://www.jlandressbrass.com/shop/Trombones/p/1938-Holton-Symphony-Model-Trombone---Used-x62379320.htm</LINK_TEXT>
.525" slide
.575" rotor with spring linkage
8 1/4" yellow brass bell
It's fun to discover that the distinctive post-valve offset on the TR181 was part of the Holton design vocabulary at least 40 years earlier.
And that bell taper!
<ATTACHMENT filename="1938 Holton Symphony Model.jpg" index="0">[attachment=0]1938 Holton Symphony Model.jpg</ATTACHMENT>
.525" slide
.575" rotor with spring linkage
8 1/4" yellow brass bell
It's fun to discover that the distinctive post-valve offset on the TR181 was part of the Holton design vocabulary at least 40 years earlier.
And that bell taper!
<ATTACHMENT filename="1938 Holton Symphony Model.jpg" index="0">
- harrisonreed
- Posts: 6479
- Joined: Aug 17, 2018
That trigger mechanism is a head scratcher
- JohnL
- Posts: 2529
- Joined: Mar 23, 2018
[quote="harrisonreed"]That trigger mechanism is a head scratcher[/quote]
It looks like there's some sort of gear linkage in there.
It would probably have a feel similar to a yo-yo style valve - which is probably what the original owner was playing before buying this horn.
It looks like there's some sort of gear linkage in there.
It would probably have a feel similar to a yo-yo style valve - which is probably what the original owner was playing before buying this horn.
- ithinknot
- Posts: 1339
- Joined: Jul 24, 2020
[quote="JohnL"]It would probably have a feel similar to a yo-yo style valve - which is probably what the original owner was playing before buying this horn.[/quote]
That's what I figured - an (over-)engineered version of the old German system
That's what I figured - an (over-)engineered version of the old German system
- robcat2075
- Posts: 1867
- Joined: Sep 03, 2018
Does the offset have any meaning or intention?
- ithinknot
- Posts: 1339
- Joined: Jul 24, 2020
[quote="robcat2075"]Does the offset have any meaning or intention?[/quote]
I mean, obviously it allows a wider attachment wrap than the span of a (presumably preexisting) main tuning slide bow would otherwise accommodate.
From a manufacturing perspective, it's complicated. Making a wider TS bow seems like it would be easy... just hand bend around a wider form... except the bow length would also increase, so you'd need to design a new taper, and that is trickier, because it will affect intonation and, well, everything.
My guess is that the extra manufacturing effort of the offset was considered less risky than interfering with a TS/bell taper pairing that was already known to work. It's a funny part; if it's tapered in the way of a normal neckpipe, then either it needs to be hydroformed, which isn't cheap, or it was hand bent and might not be particularly round or consistent. If it's not tapered, however, it can be balled-out like any other cylindrical part, and it might have been borrowed from a baritone or something else Holton was already making.
Just a guess.
I mean, obviously it allows a wider attachment wrap than the span of a (presumably preexisting) main tuning slide bow would otherwise accommodate.
From a manufacturing perspective, it's complicated. Making a wider TS bow seems like it would be easy... just hand bend around a wider form... except the bow length would also increase, so you'd need to design a new taper, and that is trickier, because it will affect intonation and, well, everything.
My guess is that the extra manufacturing effort of the offset was considered less risky than interfering with a TS/bell taper pairing that was already known to work. It's a funny part; if it's tapered in the way of a normal neckpipe, then either it needs to be hydroformed, which isn't cheap, or it was hand bent and might not be particularly round or consistent. If it's not tapered, however, it can be balled-out like any other cylindrical part, and it might have been borrowed from a baritone or something else Holton was already making.
Just a guess.
- robcat2075
- Posts: 1867
- Joined: Sep 03, 2018
If the tuning slide bow was pre-existing.... does that mean they had a trombone without the offset, placing the slide that much closer to the bell?
Is the offset something that happened when bells got larger?
Is the offset something that happened when bells got larger?
- Kbiggs
- Posts: 1768
- Joined: Mar 24, 2018
[quote="JohnL"]<QUOTE author="harrisonreed" post_id="175085" time="1648594989" user_id="3642">
That trigger mechanism is a head scratcher[/quote]
It looks like there's some sort of gear linkage in there.
It would probably have a feel similar to a yo-yo style valve - which is probably what the original owner was playing before buying this horn.
</QUOTE>
Yo-yo style valve? Not familiar with those. Many older German brass instruments had clockwork springs (or flat springs wound in a spiral) attached to the rotor spindle with a string linkage attached to a leather thong for the thumb.
It looks like a spring-activated system with a spring similar to a trumpet valve spring. The tube covers the spring and linkage, and a rod with a ring actuates the valve. I’m not saying I’m right, just what it looks like…
That trigger mechanism is a head scratcher[/quote]
It looks like there's some sort of gear linkage in there.
It would probably have a feel similar to a yo-yo style valve - which is probably what the original owner was playing before buying this horn.
</QUOTE>
Yo-yo style valve? Not familiar with those. Many older German brass instruments had clockwork springs (or flat springs wound in a spiral) attached to the rotor spindle with a string linkage attached to a leather thong for the thumb.
It looks like a spring-activated system with a spring similar to a trumpet valve spring. The tube covers the spring and linkage, and a rod with a ring actuates the valve. I’m not saying I’m right, just what it looks like…
- JohnL
- Posts: 2529
- Joined: Mar 23, 2018
[quote="Kbiggs"]...string linkage attached to a leather thong for the thumb.[/quote]
That'd be a yo-yo.
That'd be a yo-yo.
- ithinknot
- Posts: 1339
- Joined: Jul 24, 2020
[quote="robcat2075"]If the tuning slide bow was pre-existing.... does that mean they had a trombone without the offset, placing the slide that much closer to the bell?
Is the offset something that happened when bells got larger?[/quote]
All possible, though the distance would also be tweakable with the angling of the slide receiver, even with a straight-ish neckpipe. Certainly they ended up with plenty of finger room in this case. This bell flare doesn't seem especially pronounced relative to the (seemingly very large) throat, so it's hard to know how much smaller any earlier relatives might have been if they were based on the same taper.
Is the offset something that happened when bells got larger?[/quote]
All possible, though the distance would also be tweakable with the angling of the slide receiver, even with a straight-ish neckpipe. Certainly they ended up with plenty of finger room in this case. This bell flare doesn't seem especially pronounced relative to the (seemingly very large) throat, so it's hard to know how much smaller any earlier relatives might have been if they were based on the same taper.