Historically Un-informed Performance
- robcat2075
- Posts: 1867
- Joined: Sep 03, 2018
I've been perusing old orchestral programs to discover forgotten repertoire of the past.
This one, however, would still align with today's taste...
<ATTACHMENT filename="NYP-1922-04-02a.jpg" index="1">[attachment=1]NYP-1922-04-02a.jpg</ATTACHMENT>
But isn't it... odd... that they don't mention the soloist for the prominent flute part in the Bach?
Check out this program note about the instrumentation and the accompanying foot note...
<ATTACHMENT filename="NYP-1922-04-02b.jpg" index="0">[attachment=0]NYP-1922-04-02b.jpg</ATTACHMENT>
Eight. And with a fake harpsichord.
.
This one, however, would still align with today's taste...
<ATTACHMENT filename="NYP-1922-04-02a.jpg" index="1">
But isn't it... odd... that they don't mention the soloist for the prominent flute part in the Bach?
Check out this program note about the instrumentation and the accompanying foot note...
<ATTACHMENT filename="NYP-1922-04-02b.jpg" index="0">
Eight. And with a fake harpsichord.
.
- Posaunus
- Posts: 5018
- Joined: Mar 23, 2018
8 flutes! WOW. :eek:
Wonder what the dates[color=#BF4000]* 1645-1704 referred to? :idk: Long before any of the compositions on this program.
I just happened to listen to a (more historically-informed) performance of the Bach 2nd Orchestral Suite while driving home yesterday. What delightful music! As soon as I returned home, I pulled out some CDs and listened to yet more Bach. :good:
Wonder what the dates
I just happened to listen to a (more historically-informed) performance of the Bach 2nd Orchestral Suite while driving home yesterday. What delightful music! As soon as I returned home, I pulled out some CDs and listened to yet more Bach. :good:
- robcat2075
- Posts: 1867
- Joined: Sep 03, 2018
[quote="Posaunus"]
Wonder what the dates[color=#BF4000]* 1645-1704 referred to? :idk: Long before any of the compositions on this program.[/quote]
A reference to another Bach-era composer, farther up the page, that I didn't include
Wonder what the dates
A reference to another Bach-era composer, farther up the page, that I didn't include
- ithinknot
- Posts: 1339
- Joined: Jul 24, 2020
A lot of pre-HIP mid-C20th readings (Klemperer, et al) come across as pure stylus turgidus now, but this is something else, reaching back at least a half century earlier (not only because M had begun the Concertgebouw's Palm Sunday Matthew Passion tradition in 1899).
- Posaunus
- Posts: 5018
- Joined: Mar 23, 2018
My standard of excellence for Bach has become the wonderful YouTube recordings of the Netherlands Bach Society. Uniformly wonderful to my ears. I'd love to attend a live performance! :good:
- LeTromboniste
- Posts: 1634
- Joined: Apr 11, 2018
[quote="Posaunus"]
Wonder what the dates[color=#BF4000]* 1645-1704 referred to? :idk: Long before any of the compositions on this program.
[/quote]
I'm guessing Charpentier (now usually 1643, but used to be given as circa 1645), or Georg Christoph Strattner, who was one of Bach's predecessor in Weimar.
Yeah, 8 flutes is pretty wild!
Wonder what the dates
[/quote]
I'm guessing Charpentier (now usually 1643, but used to be given as circa 1645), or Georg Christoph Strattner, who was one of Bach's predecessor in Weimar.
Yeah, 8 flutes is pretty wild!
- robcat2075
- Posts: 1867
- Joined: Sep 03, 2018
[quote="LeTromboniste"]<QUOTE author="Posaunus" post_id="175293" time="1648829158" user_id="158">
Wonder what the dates[color=#BF4000]* 1645-1704 referred to? :idk: Long before any of the compositions on this program.
[/quote]
I'm guessing Charpentier (now usually 1643, but used to be given as circa 1645), or Georg Christoph Strattner, who was one of Bach's predecessor in Weimar.
Yeah, 8 flutes is pretty wild!
</QUOTE>
You may peruse the complete program notes here
[url]<LINK_TEXT text="https://archives.nyphil.org/index.php/a ... 1/mode/2up">https://archives.nyphil.org/index.php/artifact/551324b9-2e7b-4cb8-a18a-55edc173477c-0.1/fullview#page/1/mode/2up</LINK_TEXT>
Also of interest: the extensive explanation of Heldenleben
Wonder what the dates
[/quote]
I'm guessing Charpentier (now usually 1643, but used to be given as circa 1645), or Georg Christoph Strattner, who was one of Bach's predecessor in Weimar.
Yeah, 8 flutes is pretty wild!
</QUOTE>
You may peruse the complete program notes here
Also of interest: the extensive explanation of Heldenleben
- LeTromboniste
- Posts: 1634
- Joined: Apr 11, 2018
Probably not a "fake" harpsichord but an early 20th century one, build using a piano steel frame, often with pedals. Very different from historical instruments of course, but the norm until about the middle of the century.
- robcat2075
- Posts: 1867
- Joined: Sep 03, 2018
I heard he was just putting playing cards in the spokes.
- ithinknot
- Posts: 1339
- Joined: Jul 24, 2020
[quote="LeTromboniste"]Probably not a "fake" harpsichord but an early 20th century one, build using a piano steel frame, often with pedals. Very different from historical instruments of course, but the norm until about the middle of the century.[/quote]
No, given that the programme notes above mention a modified piano. And the 1939 MP pretty clearly uses the thumb-tack-Steinway (like some 50s Gould recordings) - it sounds nothing like a 30s Neupert or Pleyel, and the hairpin dynamic possibilities are very much in evidence.
[quote="robcat2075"]I heard he was just putting playing cards in the spokes.[/quote]
Basically, yes..!
No, given that the programme notes above mention a modified piano. And the 1939 MP pretty clearly uses the thumb-tack-Steinway (like some 50s Gould recordings) - it sounds nothing like a 30s Neupert or Pleyel, and the hairpin dynamic possibilities are very much in evidence.
[quote="robcat2075"]I heard he was just putting playing cards in the spokes.[/quote]
Basically, yes..!
- robcat2075
- Posts: 1867
- Joined: Sep 03, 2018
Here is the oldest recording of the #2 I find on archive .org
[url]<LINK_TEXT text="https://archive.org/details/l-1557-8-ba ... in-b-minor">https://archive.org/details/l-1557-8-bach-suite-in-b-minor</LINK_TEXT>
An acoustic recording from 1924... only one flute! No harpsichord.
Hamilton Harty conducts "The Symphony Orchestra" with Robert Murchie, Flute.
<INTERNETARCHIVE height="50" id="l-1557-8-bach-suite-in-b-minor" width="300">[media]<LINK_TEXT text="https://archive.org/details/l-1557-8-ba ... in-b-minor">https://archive.org/details/l-1557-8-bach-suite-in-b-minor</LINK_TEXT></INTERNETARCHIVE>
To my ear, it sounds slow and sloppy and shriekingly out of tune.
.
An acoustic recording from 1924... only one flute! No harpsichord.
Hamilton Harty conducts "The Symphony Orchestra" with Robert Murchie, Flute.
<INTERNETARCHIVE height="50" id="l-1557-8-bach-suite-in-b-minor" width="300">
To my ear, it sounds slow and sloppy and shriekingly out of tune.
.
- robcat2075
- Posts: 1867
- Joined: Sep 03, 2018
BTW, that concert was 100 years ago today.
How far we've come... to get back to the past!
[quote="LeTromboniste"]Probably not a "fake" harpsichord but an early 20th century one, build using a piano steel frame, often with pedals. Very different from historical instruments of course, but the norm until about the middle of the century.[/quote]
Wanda Landowska was famous with her full metal jacket harpsichord. I think this is the sort that Le Tromboniste is referring to...
<YOUTUBE id="a8934A11ZSY">[media]https://youtu.be/a8934A11ZSY</YOUTUBE>
How far we've come... to get back to the past!
[quote="LeTromboniste"]Probably not a "fake" harpsichord but an early 20th century one, build using a piano steel frame, often with pedals. Very different from historical instruments of course, but the norm until about the middle of the century.[/quote]
Wanda Landowska was famous with her full metal jacket harpsichord. I think this is the sort that Le Tromboniste is referring to...
<YOUTUBE id="a8934A11ZSY">
- Posaunus
- Posts: 5018
- Joined: Mar 23, 2018
[quote="robcat2075"]Here is the oldest recording of the #2 I find on archive .org
[url]<LINK_TEXT text="https://archive.org/details/l-1557-8-ba ... in-b-minor">https://archive.org/details/l-1557-8-bach-suite-in-b-minor</LINK_TEXT>
An acoustic recording from 1924... only one flute! No harpsichord.
Hamilton Harty conducts "The Symphony Orchestra" with Robert Murchie, Flute.
<INTERNETARCHIVE height="50" id="l-1557-8-bach-suite-in-b-minor" width="300">[media]<LINK_TEXT text="https://archive.org/details/l-1557-8-ba ... in-b-minor">https://archive.org/details/l-1557-8-bach-suite-in-b-minor</LINK_TEXT></INTERNETARCHIVE>
To my ear, it sounds slow and sloppy and shriekingly out of tune.[/quote]
That was really hard to listen to! :horror:
An acoustic recording from 1924... only one flute! No harpsichord.
Hamilton Harty conducts "The Symphony Orchestra" with Robert Murchie, Flute.
<INTERNETARCHIVE height="50" id="l-1557-8-bach-suite-in-b-minor" width="300">
To my ear, it sounds slow and sloppy and shriekingly out of tune.[/quote]
That was really hard to listen to! :horror: