Small Bore Horns That Pop
- bobroden
- Posts: 135
- Joined: Apr 23, 2018
I’m not sure what the word for it is, but some small bore jazz horns have a particular quality of really kind of “revving up” when pushed a bit. I had a Bach 6vii that really cut through that way; just a bit more air brought out a very pleasingly aggressive quality that made the horn really fun to play in a small group setting.
At the time I had that horn, I didn’t realize how rare that quality was. My Edwards T-302 has some of it, but not to the extent the Bach did. I’ve tried numerous horns over recent years, but haven’t found anything comparable.
So I’m curious what people have to say about this phenomenon. Are there particular horn models that have it more than others? Is it especially a Bach 6 thing? Does it relate to particular bell sizes, or materials, or other measurable/identifiable characteristics of the horn?
Does what I’m describing at least sound familiar???
At the time I had that horn, I didn’t realize how rare that quality was. My Edwards T-302 has some of it, but not to the extent the Bach did. I’ve tried numerous horns over recent years, but haven’t found anything comparable.
So I’m curious what people have to say about this phenomenon. Are there particular horn models that have it more than others? Is it especially a Bach 6 thing? Does it relate to particular bell sizes, or materials, or other measurable/identifiable characteristics of the horn?
Does what I’m describing at least sound familiar???
- JerryY
- Posts: 60
- Joined: May 08, 2018
My Lawler model 3, All bronze bell stem with 7.5 .022 bronze bell, all nickel .500 (including nickel bow) is open, broad but can get tight and pop when played aggressively. I like the 15 open leadpipe but use the 10 when playing lead Bigband because if fits right in with the lead trumpet and responds faster. I've been told it sounds like its mic'd when pushed but maintains a broad cutting sound.
- ithinknot
- Posts: 1339
- Joined: Jul 24, 2020
[quote="bobroden"]“revving up”[/quote]
If you want the particular character of a Bach 6, then a Bach 6 is probably the best place to find it - I love that sound.
This might be nonsense, and the ramblings of a plague-riddled idiot (I'm stuck at home this week and too tired to do much else)... but I suspect that this kind of thing comes from having a reasonably wide and early-starting zone in which you can progressively saturate/flare the tone, which depends on there being enough resistance throughout the system that you can dip in and out of this area with finesse.
A sort of torquey 30-70mph acceleration feeling, not a question of top speed.
You hear something comparable in classic 2Bs - 'lighting up' happens by many degrees, and can be hinted at quite subtly. With larger and/or simpler sounding horns, the model moves towards 'what it sounds like', followed by 'you've gone too far'.
On a 6, you've got a small bore size, but a relatively open leadpipe/'front end', and then several different sources of resistance and turbulence further down the line - yes, the limits of .485, but also the dual radius slide crook, Bachian bore gaps in various spots, tuning slide bows that start slightly tighter than you might expect etc etc... so when you start to push it past its polite limits, you've got resistance progressively showing up from several different places and some really colorful acoustic shenanigans result. (Apropos this, if you put the TS of a modern 16/16M on a 6vii - which you can, because the legs are identical, and only the crook taper itself is different - the instrument gets much freer blowing, and significantly less interesting sounding. I mean, it still sounds good, and like a small Bach, but back-to-back you really notice a lot of that '6 character' disappear.)
The polar opposite would be something like putting a 6.5AL in a bass - i.e. having a single disproportionately obvious choke point in the system. There's a dynamic level below which you could probably make a semi-decent sound, but beyond that you suddenly hit a brick wall of resistance/mismatched impedance/whatever and the noise gets nasty in a hurry.
In some modern small bore horns, you definitely hear traces of 'tight is bad, so open is good, so more open is more gooderer', and between computer-optimized tapers and lighter slides, you've taken out various sources of acoustic weirdness, inertia and difficulty, with a concomitant simplification of basic tone color. No free lunches, and people have different priorities.
If you want the particular character of a Bach 6, then a Bach 6 is probably the best place to find it - I love that sound.
This might be nonsense, and the ramblings of a plague-riddled idiot (I'm stuck at home this week and too tired to do much else)... but I suspect that this kind of thing comes from having a reasonably wide and early-starting zone in which you can progressively saturate/flare the tone, which depends on there being enough resistance throughout the system that you can dip in and out of this area with finesse.
A sort of torquey 30-70mph acceleration feeling, not a question of top speed.
You hear something comparable in classic 2Bs - 'lighting up' happens by many degrees, and can be hinted at quite subtly. With larger and/or simpler sounding horns, the model moves towards 'what it sounds like', followed by 'you've gone too far'.
On a 6, you've got a small bore size, but a relatively open leadpipe/'front end', and then several different sources of resistance and turbulence further down the line - yes, the limits of .485, but also the dual radius slide crook, Bachian bore gaps in various spots, tuning slide bows that start slightly tighter than you might expect etc etc... so when you start to push it past its polite limits, you've got resistance progressively showing up from several different places and some really colorful acoustic shenanigans result. (Apropos this, if you put the TS of a modern 16/16M on a 6vii - which you can, because the legs are identical, and only the crook taper itself is different - the instrument gets much freer blowing, and significantly less interesting sounding. I mean, it still sounds good, and like a small Bach, but back-to-back you really notice a lot of that '6 character' disappear.)
The polar opposite would be something like putting a 6.5AL in a bass - i.e. having a single disproportionately obvious choke point in the system. There's a dynamic level below which you could probably make a semi-decent sound, but beyond that you suddenly hit a brick wall of resistance/mismatched impedance/whatever and the noise gets nasty in a hurry.
In some modern small bore horns, you definitely hear traces of 'tight is bad, so open is good, so more open is more gooderer', and between computer-optimized tapers and lighter slides, you've taken out various sources of acoustic weirdness, inertia and difficulty, with a concomitant simplification of basic tone color. No free lunches, and people have different priorities.
- Doug_Elliott
- Posts: 4155
- Joined: Mar 22, 2018
Is it too early to nominate post of the year?
- Burgerbob
- Posts: 6327
- Joined: Apr 23, 2018
[quote="ithinknot"]On a 6, you've got a small bore size, but a relatively open leadpipe/'front end', and then several different sources of resistance and turbulence further down the line - yes, the limits of .485, but also the dual radius slide crook, Bachian bore gaps in various spots, tuning slide bows that start slightly tighter than you might expect etc etc...[/quote]
Can we have a thread about this? I came to a similar conclusion a while back, I'd love to talk about it!
Can we have a thread about this? I came to a similar conclusion a while back, I'd love to talk about it!
- MrHCinDE
- Posts: 1039
- Joined: Jul 01, 2018
Very interesting discussion. It got me searching around about how these effects could be numerically analysed and I came across this excellent paper:
[url]<LINK_TEXT text=" https://hal.archives-ouvertes.fr/hal-0 ... 2/document"> https://hal.archives-ouvertes.fr/hal-01226234v2/document</LINK_TEXT>
More generally I wonder how much work has been done to apply computational methods to trombone design? I have a friend who is an expert in CFD (for an elite motorsport team) and also an excellent trombonist so might ask him to share his thoughts over a cup of tea and a biscuit…no scratch that, I think we’ll need a pot of tea and a plate full of digestives.
More generally I wonder how much work has been done to apply computational methods to trombone design? I have a friend who is an expert in CFD (for an elite motorsport team) and also an excellent trombonist so might ask him to share his thoughts over a cup of tea and a biscuit…no scratch that, I think we’ll need a pot of tea and a plate full of digestives.
- HermanGerman
- Posts: 127
- Joined: Oct 29, 2021
When I was a young trombone student and overwhelmed by this
<YOUTUBE id="4Nsp24DJKtw">https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4Nsp24DJKtw</YOUTUBE>
I found out about how important the right tool can be. (The original recording is on Carla Bley Live! (WATT/ECM records) and a tad better)
I searched for and then bought the same horn he is playing...And still after all these years and too many trombones the only trombone I played that has the ingedients for this special sound is an old very King 2B Silver Sonic. Hallelujah! :idea:
By the way nobody in the world plays it better than Gary Valente.
<YOUTUBE id="4Nsp24DJKtw">https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4Nsp24DJKtw</YOUTUBE>
I found out about how important the right tool can be. (The original recording is on Carla Bley Live! (WATT/ECM records) and a tad better)
I searched for and then bought the same horn he is playing...And still after all these years and too many trombones the only trombone I played that has the ingedients for this special sound is an old very King 2B Silver Sonic. Hallelujah! :idea:
By the way nobody in the world plays it better than Gary Valente.
- SwissTbone
- Posts: 1138
- Joined: Mar 23, 2018
[quote="HermanGerman"]When I was a young trombone student and overwhelmed by this
<YOUTUBE id="4Nsp24DJKtw">https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4Nsp24DJKtw</YOUTUBE>
I found out about how important the right tool can be. (The original recording is on Carla Bley Live! (WATT/ECM records) and a tad better)
I searched for and then bought the same horn he is playing...And still after all these years and too many trombones the only trombone I played that has the ingedients for this special sound is an old very King 2B Silver Sonic. Hallelujah! :idea:
By the way nobody in the world plays it better than Gary Valente.[/quote]
I really dig Gary's sound on this! Thanks for sharing!
<YOUTUBE id="4Nsp24DJKtw">https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4Nsp24DJKtw</YOUTUBE>
I found out about how important the right tool can be. (The original recording is on Carla Bley Live! (WATT/ECM records) and a tad better)
I searched for and then bought the same horn he is playing...And still after all these years and too many trombones the only trombone I played that has the ingedients for this special sound is an old very King 2B Silver Sonic. Hallelujah! :idea:
By the way nobody in the world plays it better than Gary Valente.[/quote]
I really dig Gary's sound on this! Thanks for sharing!
- ithinknot
- Posts: 1339
- Joined: Jul 24, 2020
[quote="HermanGerman"]By the way nobody in the world plays it better than Gary Valente.[/quote]
I'm quite certain there are lots of people who can do this sort of thing at least as well, it's just that they're in UHOP bands and similar (might even be on a 4BSS ;) ...), and didn't have CB and ECM to bring something of this sound to the haute-middlebrow festival circuit, errr, hallelujah.
No criticism of GV whatsoever - just a question of perspective.
[quote="Burgerbob"]<QUOTE author="ithinknot" post_id="176288" time="1649890995" user_id="9763">
On a 6...[/quote]
Can we have a thread about this? I came to a similar conclusion a while back, I'd love to talk about it!
</QUOTE>
Yes!
[quote="Doug Elliott"]Is it too early to nominate post of the year?[/quote]
I'm going to slap everybody at the awards ceremony.
I'm quite certain there are lots of people who can do this sort of thing at least as well, it's just that they're in UHOP bands and similar (might even be on a 4BSS ;) ...), and didn't have CB and ECM to bring something of this sound to the haute-middlebrow festival circuit, errr, hallelujah.
No criticism of GV whatsoever - just a question of perspective.
[quote="Burgerbob"]<QUOTE author="ithinknot" post_id="176288" time="1649890995" user_id="9763">
On a 6...[/quote]
Can we have a thread about this? I came to a similar conclusion a while back, I'd love to talk about it!
</QUOTE>
Yes!
[quote="Doug Elliott"]Is it too early to nominate post of the year?[/quote]
I'm going to slap everybody at the awards ceremony.
- jorymil
- Posts: 304
- Joined: Oct 26, 2019
Thanks for turning me onto that recording, Herman! Getting purchased today!
Gary's sound is so very much in the vein of Latin trombonists: that same tone quality, but with some more core underneath it. So much so that it sounds like he's playing through an effects pedal at times! Latin players really excel at playing in the "overdriven" or "brassy" dynamic range of the trombone. I don't hear anyone else trying to play quite like that.
I've been reading through _The_Science_of_Brass_Instruments_ recently, which really dives into the physics of the horn, and at times which dynamic levels different instruments start to acquire that different timbre. I'd like to read more before speaking knowledgeably about the subject, but the concept of bore profile--how much instruments vary from cylindrical to conical--plays a big role.
Gary's sound is so very much in the vein of Latin trombonists: that same tone quality, but with some more core underneath it. So much so that it sounds like he's playing through an effects pedal at times! Latin players really excel at playing in the "overdriven" or "brassy" dynamic range of the trombone. I don't hear anyone else trying to play quite like that.
I've been reading through _The_Science_of_Brass_Instruments_ recently, which really dives into the physics of the horn, and at times which dynamic levels different instruments start to acquire that different timbre. I'd like to read more before speaking knowledgeably about the subject, but the concept of bore profile--how much instruments vary from cylindrical to conical--plays a big role.
- JLivi
- Posts: 870
- Joined: May 10, 2018
[quote="HermanGerman"]When I was a young trombone student and overwhelmed by this
...
By the way nobody in the world plays it better than Gary Valente.[/quote]
How big is that bell?!? 6.5"? He sounds great!
...
By the way nobody in the world plays it better than Gary Valente.[/quote]
How big is that bell?!? 6.5"? He sounds great!
- greenbean
- Posts: 1958
- Joined: Mar 23, 2018
Yes, Gary Valente's playing was amazing. A lot of salsa players go for some of that effect in their solos. It makes them exciting and effective solos.
But I don't think the way Gary Valente did it was sustainable. I think he ended his career early by destroying his lip. (That is what I have read, anyway.)
But I don't think the way Gary Valente did it was sustainable. I think he ended his career early by destroying his lip. (That is what I have read, anyway.)
- BGuttman
- Posts: 7368
- Joined: Mar 22, 2018
[quote="JLivi"]...
How big is that bell?!? 6.5"? He sounds great![/quote]
I'm pretty sure it's a normal 2B.
It's interesting. His sound is what the silver sonic was supposed to tame. Wonder what he'd have sounded like on a brass bell :horror:
How big is that bell?!? 6.5"? He sounds great![/quote]
I'm pretty sure it's a normal 2B.
It's interesting. His sound is what the silver sonic was supposed to tame. Wonder what he'd have sounded like on a brass bell :horror:
- ArbanRubank
- Posts: 424
- Joined: Feb 23, 2019
Here's that same type of sound on a 3B, a bit tamer:
<YOUTUBE id="orjR33X7Ml8">https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=orjR33X7Ml8</YOUTUBE>
<YOUTUBE id="orjR33X7Ml8">https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=orjR33X7Ml8</YOUTUBE>
- ithinknot
- Posts: 1339
- Joined: Jul 24, 2020
[quote="bobroden"]I’m not sure what the word for it is, but some small bore jazz horns have a particular quality of really kind of “revving up” when pushed a bit. I had a Bach 6vii that really cut through that way; just a bit more air brought out a very pleasingly aggressive quality that made the horn really fun to play in a small group setting.[/quote]
It's all about the 'just a bit'...
With enough effort, in the GV/salsa/UHOP contexts, some people can push any instrument to an end-of-the-line/full-capacity sound. I think the question here is more about how accessible and controllable the first hints of that sound might be - the shape of the distortion curve, if you will - and how many options there are for a hint of sass before you get to 'plasma cutting a dinosaur' territory.
[quote="ArbanRubank"]Here's that same type of sound on a 3B, a bit tamer:
[url=https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=orjR33X7Ml8]https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=orjR33X7Ml8[/quote]
Yeah, somewhere between that and Kai Winding is what I think of as the classic 3B sound. (JJ just sounds like JJ.)
It's all about the 'just a bit'...
With enough effort, in the GV/salsa/UHOP contexts, some people can push any instrument to an end-of-the-line/full-capacity sound. I think the question here is more about how accessible and controllable the first hints of that sound might be - the shape of the distortion curve, if you will - and how many options there are for a hint of sass before you get to 'plasma cutting a dinosaur' territory.
[quote="ArbanRubank"]Here's that same type of sound on a 3B, a bit tamer:
Yeah, somewhere between that and Kai Winding is what I think of as the classic 3B sound. (JJ just sounds like JJ.)
- Posaunus
- Posts: 5018
- Joined: Mar 23, 2018
As a teenager, I had some of Valente's harsh sound, that I had to learn how to tame in order to fit it with a band. :eek:
So glad I mellowed out. :cool:
So glad I mellowed out. :cool:
- Monkhouse
- Posts: 55
- Joined: May 12, 2020
<YOUTUBE id="bR9kQUjmArg">https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=bR9kQUjmArg</YOUTUBE>
May I submit Vinny Nobile into the discussion? I know ska and ska punk are not necessarily the highest art form for the trombone. You can't deny Vinny's sound is perfect for this style. He's peeling paint, but he's just on the right side of good sound. I think he's using a Yamaha of some kind.
May I submit Vinny Nobile into the discussion? I know ska and ska punk are not necessarily the highest art form for the trombone. You can't deny Vinny's sound is perfect for this style. He's peeling paint, but he's just on the right side of good sound. I think he's using a Yamaha of some kind.
- JLivi
- Posts: 870
- Joined: May 10, 2018
[quote="BGuttman"]I'm pretty sure it's a normal 2B.[/quote]
I didn't realize 2Bs had such small bells. Unless maybe this was a slightly smaller 7" bell? I have no idea. It still looks funny to me. I'll have to pay closer attention to the bells of my friends that play 2Bs
I didn't realize 2Bs had such small bells. Unless maybe this was a slightly smaller 7" bell? I have no idea. It still looks funny to me. I'll have to pay closer attention to the bells of my friends that play 2Bs
- Posaunus
- Posts: 5018
- Joined: Mar 23, 2018
[quote="JLivi"]<QUOTE author="BGuttman" post_id="176320" time="1649949141" user_id="53">
I'm pretty sure it's a normal 2B.[/quote]
I didn't realize 2Bs had such small bells.
</QUOTE>
My 1958 King 2B has a 7⅜" diameter bell. Thought that was the standard. King 3B has 8" bell.
I'm pretty sure it's a normal 2B.[/quote]
I didn't realize 2Bs had such small bells.
</QUOTE>
My 1958 King 2B has a 7⅜" diameter bell. Thought that was the standard. King 3B has 8" bell.
- Burgerbob
- Posts: 6327
- Joined: Apr 23, 2018
[quote="JLivi"]<QUOTE author="BGuttman" post_id="176320" time="1649949141" user_id="53">
I'm pretty sure it's a normal 2B.[/quote]
I didn't realize 2Bs had such small bells. Unless maybe this was a slightly smaller 7" bell? I have no idea. It still looks funny to me. I'll have to pay closer attention to the bells of my friends that play 2Bs
</QUOTE>
The video is at the wrong aspect ratio, which might make the bell look smaller. Looks like a normal 7.5 to me.
I'm pretty sure it's a normal 2B.[/quote]
I didn't realize 2Bs had such small bells. Unless maybe this was a slightly smaller 7" bell? I have no idea. It still looks funny to me. I'll have to pay closer attention to the bells of my friends that play 2Bs
</QUOTE>
The video is at the wrong aspect ratio, which might make the bell look smaller. Looks like a normal 7.5 to me.
- ithinknot
- Posts: 1339
- Joined: Jul 24, 2020
[quote="Burgerbob"]<QUOTE author="ithinknot" post_id="176288" time="1649890995" user_id="9763">
On a 6...[/quote]
Can we have a thread about this? I came to a similar conclusion a while back, I'd love to talk about it!
</QUOTE>
Seriously though, please do, here or elsewhere
I, for one, welcome your i̶n̶s̶e̶c̶t̶ ̶o̶v̶e̶r̶l̶o̶r̶d̶s̶ observations
On a 6...[/quote]
Can we have a thread about this? I came to a similar conclusion a while back, I'd love to talk about it!
</QUOTE>
Seriously though, please do, here or elsewhere
I, for one, welcome your i̶n̶s̶e̶c̶t̶ ̶o̶v̶e̶r̶l̶o̶r̶d̶s̶ observations
- Rusty
- Posts: 470
- Joined: Jun 01, 2018
There’s some insane lead playing by Matt Neiss on the first Capitol Bones album that I always think of as almost the perfect fat lead sound. I believe at the time he was playing a Bach 6. Also check out the Super Highway band album Studio City, some paint peeling playing by Nichol Thomson, who also plays bass and a few other things on the album! Also looks to play a small Bach.
- JLivi
- Posts: 870
- Joined: May 10, 2018
[quote="Burgerbob"]The video is at the wrong aspect ratio, which might make the bell look smaller. Looks like a normal 7.5 to me.[/quote]
I obviously don't know anything :lol: :idk:
I obviously don't know anything :lol: :idk:
- Fidbone
- Posts: 383
- Joined: Apr 24, 2018
[quote="Rusty"]Also check out the Super Highway band album Studio City, some paint peeling playing by Nichol Thomson, who also plays bass and a few other things on the album! Also looks to play a small Bach.[/quote]
Nichol plays a Bach 16M :hi:
Nichol plays a Bach 16M :hi:
- HermanGerman
- Posts: 127
- Joined: Oct 29, 2021
Valente was also able to play with a normal trombone sound. He played a regular old 2B Silver Sonic, talked to him once. I don´t know if he injured his lips but I can play 90% Valente with little to no pressure.
It is the trombone´s cry of pain not the lip´s ;-) It is very loud....very very loud
I once saw him in a huge concert hall (Aalto theatre in Essen) and he played solos without a microphone while the Bley band played tutti. And he filled the hall with his trombone prayers...
It is the trombone´s cry of pain not the lip´s ;-) It is very loud....very very loud
I once saw him in a huge concert hall (Aalto theatre in Essen) and he played solos without a microphone while the Bley band played tutti. And he filled the hall with his trombone prayers...
- MrHCinDE
- Posts: 1039
- Joined: Jul 01, 2018
Another example is Wycliffe Gordon on a Yamaha 891Z (or probably just about any instrument the great man would pick up)
- baileyman
- Posts: 1169
- Joined: Mar 24, 2018
In my own stable it's the 6vii that sizzles most of all. It's really hard to control as it barks from a low volume.
Matt had a Martin Imperial that he used after his Bach, if I remember right. I then got one of those, and yes, it barks all the time.
This brings up a thought on choosing a size for purpose. Listening to Fontana, he gets a little edge on his accented notes usually on a Bach 12. I suspect that he wanted to be able to get that edge easily from his preferred playing volume, thus the .500. He also used a 9 and 8, but mostly a 12. Being able to get that edge in the middle of a line on selected notes makes for really hip accenting. It would be much different with a large horn that would need more effort to light up.
Matt had a Martin Imperial that he used after his Bach, if I remember right. I then got one of those, and yes, it barks all the time.
This brings up a thought on choosing a size for purpose. Listening to Fontana, he gets a little edge on his accented notes usually on a Bach 12. I suspect that he wanted to be able to get that edge easily from his preferred playing volume, thus the .500. He also used a 9 and 8, but mostly a 12. Being able to get that edge in the middle of a line on selected notes makes for really hip accenting. It would be much different with a large horn that would need more effort to light up.
- Mamaposaune
- Posts: 657
- Joined: Sep 22, 2018
Years ago I had a Martin Handcraft Imperial from the '30's, bought off ebay cheap. I used it when I used to do "History of the Brass Instruments" demonstrations with a colleague. When my older son was looking for a horn to play lead in his H.S. jazz and dixieland bands, I handed him the Martin. He really pushed it to the limits, and that horn could sizzle! He was going for a James Pankow sound, and came pretty close, IMO. But I know it was mellow at softer dynamics, based on my use if it.
I sold it after he graduated, missed it, and then bought a Martin Committee with high expectations, but was disappointed. To me, the Handcraft was a better horn. Nickle-silver slide (which worked great) with the slide lock on the bell-tenon side; brass bell, lightweight and balanced. I think it was dual-bore, and had a 7 1/2" bell.
I sold it after he graduated, missed it, and then bought a Martin Committee with high expectations, but was disappointed. To me, the Handcraft was a better horn. Nickle-silver slide (which worked great) with the slide lock on the bell-tenon side; brass bell, lightweight and balanced. I think it was dual-bore, and had a 7 1/2" bell.
- BGuttman
- Posts: 7368
- Joined: Mar 22, 2018
[quote="baileyman"]...
Matt had a Martin Imperial that he used after his Bach, if I remember right. I then got one of those, and yes, it barks all the time.
...[/quote]
At one time I had a Martin Imperial and a Martin Committee. Found the Committee to be a lot mellower and the Imperial was better for Dixieland (at least for the sound I was trying to get). Plus, I already had a Holton Stratodyne (67) for Big Band so I sold the Committee. Those were all great horns.
Matt had a Martin Imperial that he used after his Bach, if I remember right. I then got one of those, and yes, it barks all the time.
...[/quote]
At one time I had a Martin Imperial and a Martin Committee. Found the Committee to be a lot mellower and the Imperial was better for Dixieland (at least for the sound I was trying to get). Plus, I already had a Holton Stratodyne (67) for Big Band so I sold the Committee. Those were all great horns.
- soseggnchips
- Posts: 92
- Joined: Jan 29, 2021
[quote="ithinknot"]With enough effort, in the GV/salsa/UHOP contexts, some people can push any instrument to an end-of-the-line/full-capacity sound. I think the question here is more about how accessible and controllable the first hints of that sound might be - the shape of the distortion curve, if you will - and how many options there are for a hint of sass before you get to 'plasma cutting a dinosaur' territory.[/quote]
I love that phrase 'distortion curve' - it makes me think of the way guitar amps break up which I think is a great analogy. An electric guitar 'sounds loud' when you turn the amp up enough that it starts to distort. With a 1W amp that happens at bedroom volumes, with a 100W amp it happens at stadium volumes.
A trombone starts to 'sound loud' when you get a bit of sizzle. A 2B is like the 1W guitar amp and a 42B is like the 100W amp - the .547 has the potential to produce more ultimate volume, but the 2B can be pushed into 'sounding loud' more easily.
It also means that when someone says 'my equipment is too bright/too dark', they really mean 'too bright/too dark at the volume at which I typically play'.
I love that phrase 'distortion curve' - it makes me think of the way guitar amps break up which I think is a great analogy. An electric guitar 'sounds loud' when you turn the amp up enough that it starts to distort. With a 1W amp that happens at bedroom volumes, with a 100W amp it happens at stadium volumes.
A trombone starts to 'sound loud' when you get a bit of sizzle. A 2B is like the 1W guitar amp and a 42B is like the 100W amp - the .547 has the potential to produce more ultimate volume, but the 2B can be pushed into 'sounding loud' more easily.
It also means that when someone says 'my equipment is too bright/too dark', they really mean 'too bright/too dark at the volume at which I typically play'.
- ArbanRubank
- Posts: 424
- Joined: Feb 23, 2019
Nice explanation! :good:
- ithinknot
- Posts: 1339
- Joined: Jul 24, 2020
[quote="Rusty"]Also check out the Super Highway band album Studio City[/quote]
Thanks for this, btw. Good fun.
Thanks for this, btw. Good fun.
- mjrochatbn74
- Posts: 35
- Joined: Nov 06, 2021
Interesting thread, but please be careful with categorizing players and certain assumptions. I have heard Gary live in a small room and it is not event something that can be well described in words. It is a presence. This thread has focussed only on the horn and dimensions but what makes Gary unique is his soul. Yes he played a silver sonic 2B. He didn't have lip problem that put him on the sidelines. Also, he was THE SOUND of CB big band for many years.
Many of UHOP bands as featured on the fabulous Saints Paradise recording(Smithsonian Folkways) and various other soulful players(ie. NOLA) are all THEMSELVES. They are often heavily influenced by the hymns and spirituals in churches as their original stomping grounds. These players are absolutely amazing in their own right on a multitude of various sized horns(including student models). I for one wish I grew up in their churches for sure. Their sound pops regardless of what they are playing.
On another note, the UHOP have such a unique and collective sound which is incredibly under appreciated in the trombone world which over values an analytical reductionist music theory. Sometimes it is all about tongue and blow that the late John Coffey taught with a bunch of soul.
Many of UHOP bands as featured on the fabulous Saints Paradise recording(Smithsonian Folkways) and various other soulful players(ie. NOLA) are all THEMSELVES. They are often heavily influenced by the hymns and spirituals in churches as their original stomping grounds. These players are absolutely amazing in their own right on a multitude of various sized horns(including student models). I for one wish I grew up in their churches for sure. Their sound pops regardless of what they are playing.
On another note, the UHOP have such a unique and collective sound which is incredibly under appreciated in the trombone world which over values an analytical reductionist music theory. Sometimes it is all about tongue and blow that the late John Coffey taught with a bunch of soul.
- modelerdc
- Posts: 352
- Joined: May 03, 2018
Conn 48H really reves up when pushed. some others that really light up are Conn 10H, Conn 6 H, King 2B and Shires MD+
- bobroden
- Posts: 135
- Joined: Apr 23, 2018
[quote="modelerdc"]Conn 48H really reves up when pushed. some others that really light up are Conn 10H, Conn 6 H, King 2B and Shires MD+[/quote]
The MD+ is the .508 version, right? Does the .500 Michael Davis light up the same way?
The MD+ is the .508 version, right? Does the .500 Michael Davis light up the same way?
- Jimkinkella
- Posts: 286
- Joined: Mar 23, 2018
[quote="bobroden"]<QUOTE author="modelerdc" post_id="176586" time="1650241856" user_id="3210">
Conn 48H really reves up when pushed. some others that really light up are Conn 10H, Conn 6 H, King 2B and Shires MD+[/quote]
The MD+ is the .508 version, right? Does the .500 Michael Davis light up the same way?
</QUOTE>
Yes, the MD+ is the .508
And no, they play nothing alike.
For some reason the .508 plays way different than the small one.
I'd only test driven the small one, really didn't like it, but I do own an MD+, and use it it fairly regularly.
It's replaced a 48h on most of those gigs.
Conn 48H really reves up when pushed. some others that really light up are Conn 10H, Conn 6 H, King 2B and Shires MD+[/quote]
The MD+ is the .508 version, right? Does the .500 Michael Davis light up the same way?
</QUOTE>
Yes, the MD+ is the .508
And no, they play nothing alike.
For some reason the .508 plays way different than the small one.
I'd only test driven the small one, really didn't like it, but I do own an MD+, and use it it fairly regularly.
It's replaced a 48h on most of those gigs.
- TromboneMonkey
- Posts: 271
- Joined: May 11, 2018
Olds horns, especially the Recording and the Studio. Less so the Super, but still.
- RichardDavenport
- Posts: 3
- Joined: May 03, 2023
Love this thread. ...feeling nostalgic. For me, that kind of tone was both "something in the water," and the equipment.
I grew up in Corpus Christi and Brownsville, TX, in the 70s. We had all been steeped in a pretty rich stew of mariachi, amplified Tejano and norteno ...German and Czech polka, latin jazz ... from infancy... Also that sort gulf coast brass band vibe like New Orleans and the Mid-century Texas Marching band culture. So nobody was trying to "tame the tone" lol.
My Dad, was a fairly prominent Band Director, Fine trumpeter and arranger from the panhandle (high school classmate of Bob Dorough) and studied at North Texas ... played 2nd trumpet in the early 50's Lab band. He kinda raised me on JT and TD JJ and Kai, though I was never a very serious music student, I had a tremendous amount of fun. I didn't really know what I was doing, but my dad did, lol. I became an Engineer.
My beginner horn was a silver Selmer-Signet, so nice and bright ...like a 3b. When I got to HS he got me an Olds Opera, nickle silver ... a big horn, but so was I and very strong. I could drive into something like that tone were taking about when really getting after it. A favorite memory is filling up the Gym or hitting the top row of the stadium soloing over the sousaphones and drum line to Woodchoppers Ball ...so much fun! Also had some truly glorious "symphonic" experiences on that horn, on in to college.
The kid I sat next to played a Bach strad 42, (on my dad's recommendation) and was a serious music student. When he got after it, he seemed to just get bigger, richer and rounder, while I mine drive up to and in and out of that almost snarling edge. We were great together. I'm sure that was by design.
I grew up in Corpus Christi and Brownsville, TX, in the 70s. We had all been steeped in a pretty rich stew of mariachi, amplified Tejano and norteno ...German and Czech polka, latin jazz ... from infancy... Also that sort gulf coast brass band vibe like New Orleans and the Mid-century Texas Marching band culture. So nobody was trying to "tame the tone" lol.
My Dad, was a fairly prominent Band Director, Fine trumpeter and arranger from the panhandle (high school classmate of Bob Dorough) and studied at North Texas ... played 2nd trumpet in the early 50's Lab band. He kinda raised me on JT and TD JJ and Kai, though I was never a very serious music student, I had a tremendous amount of fun. I didn't really know what I was doing, but my dad did, lol. I became an Engineer.
My beginner horn was a silver Selmer-Signet, so nice and bright ...like a 3b. When I got to HS he got me an Olds Opera, nickle silver ... a big horn, but so was I and very strong. I could drive into something like that tone were taking about when really getting after it. A favorite memory is filling up the Gym or hitting the top row of the stadium soloing over the sousaphones and drum line to Woodchoppers Ball ...so much fun! Also had some truly glorious "symphonic" experiences on that horn, on in to college.
The kid I sat next to played a Bach strad 42, (on my dad's recommendation) and was a serious music student. When he got after it, he seemed to just get bigger, richer and rounder, while I mine drive up to and in and out of that almost snarling edge. We were great together. I'm sure that was by design.