Do mpcs, leadpipes etc. affect intonation?
- Bach5G
- Posts: 2874
- Joined: Apr 07, 2018
Do mouthpieces, leadpipes, and F attachments affect a horn’s intonation? I was struggling last night after putting in a straight gooseneck. I don’t remember it being as difficult and 5th and 6th partials were extremely sharp. Can various combinations of mouthpieces, feed pipes etc. make that much of a difference?
- JohnL
- Posts: 2529
- Joined: Mar 23, 2018
Absolutely.
Changing between and f-attachment and a straight neckpipe is a pretty complicated from an acoustic standpoint.
Changing between and f-attachment and a straight neckpipe is a pretty complicated from an acoustic standpoint.
- Samit2011
- Posts: 53
- Joined: Aug 05, 2019
I use a straight gooseneck every now and then with my edwards and my tuning slide is just over an inch different in each setup.
- hornbuilder
- Posts: 1384
- Joined: May 02, 2018
[quote="Samit2011"]I use a straight gooseneck every now and then with my edwards and my tuning slide is just over an inch different in each setup.[/quote]
<EMOJI seq="1f632" tseq="1f632">😲</EMOJI>
That's crazy!!
Are they the same length? The distance between the end of the handslide receiver and the tuning slide ferrule?
<EMOJI seq="1f632" tseq="1f632">😲</EMOJI>
That's crazy!!
Are they the same length? The distance between the end of the handslide receiver and the tuning slide ferrule?
- hornbuilder
- Posts: 1384
- Joined: May 02, 2018
[quote="JohnL"]Absolutely.
Changing between and f-attachment and a straight neckpipe is a pretty complicated from an acoustic standpoint.[/quote]
How so?
If the 2 assemblies are the same length, intonation shouldn't change.
Changing between and f-attachment and a straight neckpipe is a pretty complicated from an acoustic standpoint.[/quote]
How so?
If the 2 assemblies are the same length, intonation shouldn't change.
- Kdanielsen
- Posts: 609
- Joined: Jul 28, 2019
[quote="hornbuilder"]<QUOTE author="JohnL" post_id="176345" time="1649962669" user_id="119">
Absolutely.
Changing between and f-attachment and a straight neckpipe is a pretty complicated from an acoustic standpoint.[/quote]
How so?
If the 2 assemblies are the same length, intonation shouldn't change.
</QUOTE>
I don't know the answer, but I've always been curious about this. I've definitely noticed that pulling my F slide way out changes the way the open horn plays. Pulling it out entirely does too. I'm not sure it changes the intonation, but it does something to the feel/slot.
Absolutely.
Changing between and f-attachment and a straight neckpipe is a pretty complicated from an acoustic standpoint.[/quote]
How so?
If the 2 assemblies are the same length, intonation shouldn't change.
</QUOTE>
I don't know the answer, but I've always been curious about this. I've definitely noticed that pulling my F slide way out changes the way the open horn plays. Pulling it out entirely does too. I'm not sure it changes the intonation, but it does something to the feel/slot.
- hornbuilder
- Posts: 1384
- Joined: May 02, 2018
I could see pulling the F slide changing the balance of the horn, which may change mouthpiece pressure/alignment/angle, which may change the resulting sound/"feel" of the horn.
Taking it out completely does similar, but also lightens the horn...
Taking it out completely does similar, but also lightens the horn...
- Burgerbob
- Posts: 6327
- Joined: Apr 23, 2018
wouldn't a rotor section necessarily be a bit longer than a straight gooseneck, with the deviation into the valve ports?
- Doug_Elliott
- Posts: 4155
- Joined: Mar 22, 2018
It also wouldn't have the same taper shape as a neckpipe.
- Samit2011
- Posts: 53
- Joined: Aug 05, 2019
[quote="hornbuilder"]<QUOTE author="Samit2011" post_id="176350" time="1649967651" user_id="7302">
I use a straight gooseneck every now and then with my edwards and my tuning slide is just over an inch different in each setup.[/quote]
<EMOJI seq="1f632" tseq="1f632">😲</EMOJI>
That's crazy!!
Are they the same length? The distance between the end of the handslide receiver and the tuning slide ferrule?
</QUOTE>
Yep it's the same. I'm really not sure what's causing it, but at the same time I don't use it enough for it to bug me
I use a straight gooseneck every now and then with my edwards and my tuning slide is just over an inch different in each setup.[/quote]
<EMOJI seq="1f632" tseq="1f632">😲</EMOJI>
That's crazy!!
Are they the same length? The distance between the end of the handslide receiver and the tuning slide ferrule?
</QUOTE>
Yep it's the same. I'm really not sure what's causing it, but at the same time I don't use it enough for it to bug me
- tbonesullivan
- Posts: 1959
- Joined: Jul 02, 2019
[quote="Burgerbob"]wouldn't a rotor section necessarily be a bit longer than a straight gooseneck, with the deviation into the valve ports?[/quote] That was my thought, even if you have axial flow valves, there is a bit more length.
- hornbuilder
- Posts: 1384
- Joined: May 02, 2018
Even an axial valve, with the slight deflection of the main port, is less than 1/4" longer. Meaning the potential tuning slide pull would be @1/8".
It depends on the valve type and gooseneck design as to how much difference there is in the taper.
It depends on the valve type and gooseneck design as to how much difference there is in the taper.
- Langheck
- Posts: 12
- Joined: Dec 02, 2020
What about Shires large tenor tuning slides, the standard taper puts high D in 1st position, while the X taper makes the tuning more in line with Bach instruments. It seems unlikely to me that only the length of the tuning slide is what makes the difference there, or that the tuning slides are more than a negligible amount difference in length.
- hornbuilder
- Posts: 1384
- Joined: May 02, 2018
In that instance it is not length that makes the difference. It is the diameter of the crook at a specific nodal point.
- GabrielRice
- Posts: 1496
- Joined: Mar 23, 2018
[quote="Kdanielsen"]I don't know the answer, but I've always been curious about this. I've definitely noticed that pulling my F slide way out changes the way the open horn plays. Pulling it out entirely does too. I'm not sure it changes the intonation, but it does something to the feel/slot.[/quote]
I find this too. There's even a subtle difference if I pull the F slide about 2 inches, as I do when I need to play good low Cs on my single valve section. I've wondered if moving or adding a brace to the valve section would even it out.
I find this too. There's even a subtle difference if I pull the F slide about 2 inches, as I do when I need to play good low Cs on my single valve section. I've wondered if moving or adding a brace to the valve section would even it out.
- Kdanielsen
- Posts: 609
- Joined: Jul 28, 2019
[quote="GabrielRice"]<QUOTE author="Kdanielsen" post_id="176358" time="1649972648" user_id="7231">
I don't know the answer, but I've always been curious about this. I've definitely noticed that pulling my F slide way out changes the way the open horn plays. Pulling it out entirely does too. I'm not sure it changes the intonation, but it does something to the feel/slot.[/quote]
I find this too. There's even a subtle difference if I pull the F slide about 2 inches, as I do when I need to play good low Cs on my single valve section. I've wondered if moving or adding a brace to the valve section would even it out.
</QUOTE>
I’ve always thought a Gb valve (instead of F) would be worth exploring, but worried that it would have problems for this reason. Gb makes a lot of sense to me.
I don't know the answer, but I've always been curious about this. I've definitely noticed that pulling my F slide way out changes the way the open horn plays. Pulling it out entirely does too. I'm not sure it changes the intonation, but it does something to the feel/slot.[/quote]
I find this too. There's even a subtle difference if I pull the F slide about 2 inches, as I do when I need to play good low Cs on my single valve section. I've wondered if moving or adding a brace to the valve section would even it out.
</QUOTE>
I’ve always thought a Gb valve (instead of F) would be worth exploring, but worried that it would have problems for this reason. Gb makes a lot of sense to me.
- BGuttman
- Posts: 7368
- Joined: Mar 22, 2018
[quote="Kdanielsen"][...
I’ve always thought a Gb valve (instead of F) would be worth exploring, but worried that it would have problems for this reason. Gb makes a lot of sense to me.[/quote]
Actually, there was a group proposing the attachment be in G (there is actually a Holton trombone with this setup). There are some advantages to the G attachment -- even more than the Gb attachment.
I’ve always thought a Gb valve (instead of F) would be worth exploring, but worried that it would have problems for this reason. Gb makes a lot of sense to me.[/quote]
Actually, there was a group proposing the attachment be in G (there is actually a Holton trombone with this setup). There are some advantages to the G attachment -- even more than the Gb attachment.
- BoNeLife
- Posts: 68
- Joined: Jan 31, 2023
I find that pitch rises as mouthpiece cup volume decreases.
- GabrielRice
- Posts: 1496
- Joined: Mar 23, 2018
[quote="Kdanielsen"]I don't know the answer, but I've always been curious about this. I've definitely noticed that pulling my F slide way out changes the way the open horn plays. Pulling it out entirely does too. I'm not sure it changes the intonation, but it does something to the feel/slot.[/quote]
I noticed the same thing with my single valve section when pulling for an in-tune low C. It also had a tendency to slip back in when I did that because the slide was generally a little loose. Lou at Virtuosity fixed the slipping problem and now the difference in response up around 5th partial and above is lessened significantly.
I noticed the same thing with my single valve section when pulling for an in-tune low C. It also had a tendency to slip back in when I did that because the slide was generally a little loose. Lou at Virtuosity fixed the slipping problem and now the difference in response up around 5th partial and above is lessened significantly.