I'm a newer player looking to upgrade from a student instrument. I play in a Dixieland band with friends. Don't necessarily need a great finish (would prefer a 'vintage' patina). My current instrument has some sticky parts on the slide (even after repair) so I'm looking for something that plays really well...

Preferably <800, but could go higher for a really nice instrument that I could grow into. Might possibly be interested in similar models/brands - unfortunately I haven't been able to try the 2b, but everything I've read indicates that the 2b is quintessential... Open to suggestions.

Any buying advice for a newbie is also welcome. Thanks!

You may find other brand small bores will work very well for you. I've played Dixieland on a Martin Imperial, a 2B, and a Holton Stratodyne (67). I bought a Besson 2-20 (it's a "step up") from somebody else who had been using it for Dixieland. The Imperial, the Stratodyne, and the Besson all cost less than $500.

If you plan to use this instrument for more than a Dixieland band, you should be upgrading to something a bit larger since a 2B (or any of the other instruments I've mentioned) is a bit "nichey" and unless you can consistently rate 1st trombone you may have problems playing the parts for other situations.

https://trombonechat.com/viewtopic.php?f=22&t=26406. Working on a deal to trade for a euphonium, but if that falls through it'll be for sale. I agree with Bruce, though: great horn for Dixieland, salsa, soloist in a jazz band but not for orchestras, concert bands, brass choirs, etc.

Speak to or go visit DJ Kennedy, he is the man for all things king and much more…..the trombone whisperer

Thanks for the responses. At this point, the only group that I have the opportunity to play with is doing Dixieland so I think I'd prefer something that has that particular sound. If I get more opportunities - I wouldn't mind buying something else! Is that good approach?

How do I get in touch with DJ Kennedy?

[quote="Kingfan"]https://trombonechat.com/viewtopic.php?f=22&t=26406. Working on a del to trade for a euphonium, but if that falls through it'll be for sale.[/quote]

I saw your post. I got a little scared from your description of the slide... I really don't want to battle with the slide like my current instrument, but I might be interested.

Don't be scared of having a slide serviced. A good tech (I use the Slide Doctor) can make a slide like new. Almost every used horn I've bought has gone straight to him for a slide setup.

[quote="iambeam"]...

How do I get in touch with DJ Kennedy?[/quote]

DJ is a Forum Member (name DJKennedy). He is also active on the Trombone Chat Facebook page. He has a house full (literally) of used but good playing trombones of all types, all at great prices. If you are anywhere near St. Louis MO, he's right across the Mississippi in the Cairo Ill. area (Chester, IL).

[quote="iambeam"]Preferably <800, but could go higher for a really nice instrument that I could grow into. Might possibly be interested in similar models/brands - unfortunately I haven't been able to try the 2b, but everything I've read indicates that the 2b is quintessential... Open to suggestions.

Any buying advice for a newbie is also welcome. Thanks![/quote]
You shouldn't have any trouble finding a good horn in that price range. You might also consider an Olds of some variety: Standard, Studio, Special. Olds slides are all interchangeable, though mouthpiece choice may be a challenge.

I played a 2B Jiggs Whigham all through college, and it was a fine horn, but I got a Holton 63 a couple of years back, and it plays so much nicer. I'm refurbing an old 40s Reynolds right now; that would also make a good Dixie horn.

Resalability of a 2B will probably be better than anything else you buy, except for maybe an older Bach 6 (also a well-respected horn, though possibly out of your price range).

A Conn 4h or 24h would also be a good choice. Same for a 30h. 4hs abound; the other two are a little harder to come by.

Since this is your first non-student horn, really take some time to get something you love and that makes you want to play it.

Well - the horn I have is a Conn 24h. I had thought that was a student model. Maybe it's totally fine... The slide does have a little bit of a stick. I had it serviced by the only person I could find in my area. Much better than it was, but still not great.

Thanks for the tips. Unfortunately I don't live near anywhere that I can try out a bunch so it will probably be a "roll the dice" situation. I play guitar and have had dozens throughout my life... Now I've narrowed things down to a couple that are my sound. I imagine buying a horn will be similar.

After reading these comments and a little googling, maybe a 3b would be a better choice for now... Seems like the 2b is probably more similar to my Conn and the 3b would give me a taste of something new and different... Maybe?

[quote="iambeam"]Well - the horn I have is a Conn 24h. I had thought that was a student model. Maybe it's totally fine... The slide does have a little bit of a stick. I had it serviced by the only person I could find in my area. Much better than it was, but still not great.[/quote]

The 24H is a great horn, especially for Dixieland. Obviously, the condition is what it is, and perhaps you might consider sending the slide off to a specialist. But, as a design, it's easily at the level where other comparable horns aren't necessarily better, just different. (Certainly the 2B is a classic sound and there are enough out there that you really ought to be able to try one somewhere.)

https://slidedr.com/. You can ship your slide to these guys and they'll make it as good as possible. Cheaper than buying a new horn.

[quote="iambeam"]Well - the horn I have is a Conn 24h. I had thought that was a student model. Maybe it's totally fine... The slide does have a little bit of a stick. I had it serviced by the only person I could find in my area. Much better than it was, but still not great.[/quote]
The 24h has a great reputation: the Duke Ellington trombonists used them, for example. And Wes Lee has a great video on restoring an old silver-plated 24h.

But a good reputation isn't the same as a horn that works for you.

If you're not in a place where you can try horns in the store (not many of us are), give DJ or Doug Bert (thebrass-exchange.com) a shout: they might be willing to let you try some things.

Question #2: what are you using for a mouthpiece? Some horns are more mouthpiece-sensitive than others. 3bs generally are not, which might be a reason just to find a good one and get your 24h in tip-top shape. A 3b with a 7c, 6 3/4c, or 48b will give you a good cutting sound.

Great. This is all good info. I have a variety of mouthpieces. It was the same thing where I didn't have the ability to try before purchasing so I just bought a new (to me) one every month or so and used it for a while. I have a Bach 7c that sounds the clearest and feels the best to me with the 24h. I have not tried a 48b - I might give that a go!

Definitely leaning towards the 3b now just to try something different and I'll send out the 24h to get serviced. It's also silver - which is kind of cool, but for some reason I think I like the aesthetic of the brass better.

I appreciate all the comments and links.

Keep an open mind on mouthpieces. I found that mouthpieces smaller than a Bach 5 seemed to choke off the horn for me, even in the 2B. The larger mouthpiece seemed less restrictive and opened up the horn, helping my high range as well as my low. Good luck!

[quote="iambeam"]Well - the horn I have is a Conn 24h. I had thought that was a student model. Maybe it's totally fine... The slide does have a little bit of a stick. I had it serviced by the only person I could find in my area. Much better than it was, but still not great.

...[/quote]

There are several 24H instruments. The good one is called "Connstellation". If yours says "Director" it's a student version. Director has been applied to a number of Conn models over the years, including 14H, 16H, 18H, 20H, 22H, 24H, and 27H. Many of these model numbers were "recycled".

Note that a 24H Director isn't terrible -- it's typically miles ahead of some of the Chinese "Trombone Shaped Objects" that many students start on.

[quote="BGuttman"]<QUOTE author="iambeam" post_id="176571" time="1650225683" user_id="8267">
Well - the horn I have is a Conn 24h. I had thought that was a student model. Maybe it's totally fine... The slide does have a little bit of a stick. I had it serviced by the only person I could find in my area. Much better than it was, but still not great.[/quote]

...

There are several 24H instruments. The good one is called "Connstellation". If yours says "Director" it's a student version. Director has been applied to a number of Conn models over the years, including 14H, 16H, 18H, 20H, 22H, 24H, and 27H. Many of these model numbers were "recycled".

Note that a 24H Director isn't terrible -- it's typically miles ahead of some of the Chinese "Trombone Shaped Objects" that many students start on.
</QUOTE>

Bruce, I think you mean the 48H or 38H Connstellation. I know Conn reused model #'s, but iambeam most likely has the .485 7" bell pro model that was made from the 30's to the early 60's. Probably a killer dixieland horn with those specs, but a slide that old may be difficult to repair to perfect condition.

You are right. 24H was called Artist or Artist Ballroom. The Artist Ballroom would have the bell closer to the player's face (somewhat less than 3rd position) and both would be 0.485" bore with a 7 1/2" bell.. The 24H Director would be 0.500" bore and with an 8" bell. There was even a large bore model in 1919.

I'm pretty sure there was no 24H "Director." The 24H trombones were "Artist" instruments - which Conn considered 'professional' level. 0.485" bore. Per the Conn Loyalist Website "In 1958 the 24H was reinstated as the 24H Artist." Made at least through 1966; perhaps to the end of the Elkhart era (1972).

The "Connstellation" name was reserved for what Conn considered 'top of the line' models. 28H, 38H, 48H.

Conn's 'student models' were the 14H and 18H "Director."

For a reasonably accurate overview (taking into account some variability over the years), including photos, see:

https://cderksen.home.xs4all.nl/ConnLooksTrombone.html

I personally bought a 22H Director for a friend who needed a "Marching Horn". I know Conn used additional numbers in the Director badge. The 27H was the Chinese one. Remember, Christine's list ends about the time of the move to Abilene.

Bruce said:

"You may find other brand small bores will work very well for you. I've played Dixieland on a Martin Imperial, a 2B, and a Holton Stratodyne (67). I bought a Besson 2-20 (it's a "step up") from somebody else who had been using it for Dixieland. The Imperial, the Stratodyne, and the Besson all cost less than $500.

If you plan to use this instrument for more than a Dixieland band, you should be upgrading to something a bit larger since a 2B (or any of the other instruments I've mentioned) is a bit "nichey" and unless you can consistently rate 1st trombone you may have problems playing the parts for other situations.

[/quote]"

Bruce's smaller bore suggestions are good. I heard Maynard Ferguson's Bop Nouveau Band at Bass Hall in Fort Worth, Texas. His trombonist was playing a King 2b. He came through Wichita a year or so later and played some small group jazz with some of our real players, still playing his 2b. Butch Genest played the whole gig with a Conn 6H and sounded great of course, as did Maynard's trombone player on the 2b. I have played next to Butch and he did not like playing lead on the 6H. My mentor, who toured with bands before and after WWII told me to get a horn that was smaller than a 6H for big band, and he was right. He played Dixieland on a Bach LT6G professionally and never with music. I could get a pretty good Las Vegas big band sound on a Yamaha YSL-653, but it was a real workout.

If your name is Steve Turre, Wycliffe Gordon, or Joe Jackson, they probably paid their dues playing very long practice sessions upwards of 10 or 11 hours a day. They can and do sound good on larger equipment. I have listened to Steve Turre and Wycliffe Gordon up close and personal. I have also heard people run into problems with King 3b trombones particularly on 1st and 2nd in big bands and get into trouble for similar reasons in Dixieland.

I recently acquired a King 2b Liberty and discovered why it can be described as the quintessential horn for traditional jazz. Besides doing everything for traditional jazz well, including staying under the singer or clarinet, it appears to have a standard weight nickel outer slide that is bullet proof. The King 2b makes it out of the house week after week. The rest of the arsenal is in the closet. Well, the Duo-Gravis gets to peek out once in a while.

I would have no problem if the King 2b were my only horn, or the Yamaha YSL-697 or Bach LT6. The preponderance of music that I play and have opportunities to play are traditional jazz. The smaller bore horns will blend adequately for most of the gigs that an amateur will run into. If my focus were on concert band or orchestra, then I would consider one of the King 3b, King 3bf, King 3b+, or Bach 36 trombones for a single horn. For an oddball Dixieland or big band gig, then I would take one of those horns. The way I am really wired, though, it would cause me angst.

As long as I am playing the devil's advocate, the mouthpiece I use is a Bach 11C. It is actually a Mount Vernon. I like the current production Bach 11C better than some of the schlock Mount Vernon 11C's out there. I use a Schilke 47 in large bore trombones, as per Crisafulli. I never bonded with a 6 1/2 AL and it does not always sound right to me in a smaller bore horn.

In answer to the original post, however, King 2b, Bach (LT)6, Holton 67, Conn 4H, Conn 24H (0.485 bore), Olds Studio, and Olds Super. There are some others that will work as well. Dillon Music has some Conn 4H trombones in the price range. Call them up and ask for the one with the best slide. Doug Bert may have some Reynolds or other trombones in the less than 0.500 inch bore that will work in the price range.

Thanks for the info...

I likely would only be playing traditional jazz/think style... Maybe some day I might join a community band or something. I'm back to wanting a 2b. I can buy something bigger if that happens.

Do any of you know much about the Jiggs Whigham Kings? I can tell they are not dual bore, but I'm not sure how that would change the sound. This one seems to be in great condition.

<LINK_TEXT text="https://www.ebay.com/itm/King-2102-Jigg ... 632-2357-0">https://www.ebay.com/itm/King-2102-Jiggs-Whigham-Trombone-2-mouth-pieces-case-/334401866929?mkcid=16&mkevt=1&_trksid=p2349624.m46890.l49286&mkrid=711-127632-2357-0</LINK_TEXT>

Does this seem like a good price/buy?

The Jiggs is a great horn, but it’s built very lightweight, so it’s going to behave a bit differently than a normal 2B.

Another interesting variant is the 2B+, which is a single bore .500”, iirc.

Geez my long post didn’t make it ?!!??

The infamous DJKennedy. I sent you a message... Hopefully you received it. Looking forward to talking with you.

[quote="pompatus"]The Jiggs is a great horn, but it’s built very lightweight, so it’s going to behave a bit differently than a normal 2B.

Another interesting variant is the 2B+, which is a single bore .500”, iirc.[/quote]

Jiggs are very lightweight, great if you are mic’d not so much if not, 2b+ great horns especially 1stgens, but also try if you can find one the Benge 170 freelance ….500 bore heavier bell, great horns