Lightweight Jazz Horns

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bobroden
Posts: 135
Joined: Apr 23, 2018

by bobroden »

I have apparently reached the point in life at which the weight of a horn is a primary consideration; i.e., I need to keep it as light as possible to avoid physical problems.

So I thought I’d ask for recommendations about .500 or smaller jazz horns (pretty much all I play) that are on the light side. Such a list might be useful for lots of players as they get a little older, especially if thoughts, experiences and recommendations are included with the horns listed.

I’ll start with the ones I’m aware of, and will look forward to others’ contributions to come. Thanks in advance for your thoughts!

Kanstul 1602-B

XO-1632 Fedchock

Bach 6, 8, 10 or 12 with lightweight slide

Butler Lemon Drop

Jiggs 2B
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Trevorspaulding376
Posts: 610
Joined: Dec 23, 2018

by Trevorspaulding376 »

The old Martin Urbie greens were light and very good horns

Jiggs 2b as you mentioned is pretty light
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Vegasbound
Posts: 1328
Joined: Jul 06, 2019

by Vegasbound »

Yep the Urbie, very light and good
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sacfxdx
Posts: 406
Joined: Apr 11, 2018

by sacfxdx »

My Lawler Model 1 feels pretty light. It’s the standard recommended configuration. You could probably create a pretty light Lawler horn with his lighter gauge materials. I play bass mostly so almost any tenor feels light. <EMOJI seq="1f601" tseq="1f601">😁</EMOJI>
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MrHCinDE
Posts: 1039
Joined: Jul 01, 2018

by MrHCinDE »

Minick .500“ is lightest I‘ve tried
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CharlieB
Posts: 434
Joined: Mar 29, 2018

by CharlieB »

Ergobone ?

<YOUTUBE id="_IVgYG-4V4c">https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_IVgYG-4V4c</YOUTUBE>
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Jimkinkella
Posts: 286
Joined: Mar 23, 2018

by Jimkinkella »

Schmelzers are pretty darn light.
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Rusty
Posts: 470
Joined: Jun 01, 2018

by Rusty »

Shires Michael Davis
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smcgonigal
Posts: 13
Joined: Apr 02, 2019

by smcgonigal »

Besson 940
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jorymil
Posts: 304
Joined: Oct 26, 2019

by jorymil »

Holton 65
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greenbean
Posts: 1958
Joined: Mar 23, 2018

by greenbean »

The lightest horns I have are 2B's, small Bachs with LT slides, and a Conn 6H. One could always remove oversleeves to make a slide lighter - like the 6H.
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Pezza
Posts: 221
Joined: Aug 24, 2021

by Pezza »

I love my Bach 12 when I don't want the weight of my Bach 36K.
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Reedman1
Posts: 310
Joined: Apr 14, 2018

by Reedman1 »

You can’t beat a Butler for lightness. I like mine, though I find the left hand grip uncomfortable. My shoulder loves it!
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MStarke
Posts: 1031
Joined: Jan 01, 2019

by MStarke »

My Conn 100h feels extremely light compared to my 6hs. After adding another leadpipe it's a great sounding and responsive little trombone now.
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OneTon
Posts: 757
Joined: Nov 02, 2021

by OneTon » (edited 2022-05-22 5:48 a.m.)

Yamaha YSL-697Z and YSL-897Z play virtually like King 2B and seem lighter to me. The addition of a carbon fiber outer slide would make it even lighter.

I got to where I could get the Vegas or LA big band sound out of a Yamaha YSL 653 but it took a while to get there. I think that it is a little bit lighter than a Conn 6H.

I play a King 2B most of the time now. At the last shoulder sensitivity event it was hurting more than the YSL-697. The nickel outer slide is damage resistant but it does have outer doubling sleeves at the hand grip. An older one might be a candidate for a carbon outer slide from Butler. They may have thicker bells and beads than the newer ones, which might help give a richer sound. Either counter weight is acceptable and not an indication of bell thickness. The horn might balance with a counter weight removed and light weight slide.

There are some cheap Conn 4H trombones out there, too.

I have an ergo bone support that I have used with a Duo-Gravis. It solves the weight issue. I have never gotten used to it. I must move my chin up and down more than I think. I have never tried it without the stick.
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Fidbone
Posts: 383
Joined: Apr 24, 2018

by Fidbone »

I've been down the same road. Ended up buying an XO 1632 "Fedchock".

It's very light and really easy to play however I tend to overfill it on gig situations and it doesn't give me the power/timbre of sound I want.

Ultimately I've come to the conclusion that it's more to do with the balance of the horn rather than the weight with small bore horns.
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EriKon
Posts: 636
Joined: Apr 03, 2022

by EriKon »

Lawler horns are the lightest that I've ever hold so far
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OneTon
Posts: 757
Joined: Nov 02, 2021

by OneTon » (edited 2022-08-02 10:08 a.m.)

[quote="EKTrombone"]Lawler horns are the lightest that I've ever hold so far[/quote]

Have you held the van Lier with nickel slide and 180 mm bell?
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HermanGerman
Posts: 127
Joined: Oct 29, 2021

by HermanGerman »

Better to try the Neotech with YOUR horn before buying a trombone which is just light
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tjonz
Posts: 54
Joined: Apr 01, 2018

by tjonz »

Reedman1 writes:

> You can’t beat a Butler for lightness.

Yup. My Rath R2 weighs three pounds. Holding it up for extended periods caused chronic tendinitis in my left elbow. My Butler JJ weighs a pound and a half. After playing it exclusively for only a couple of weeks the tendinitis went away.
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bobroden
Posts: 135
Joined: Apr 23, 2018

by bobroden »

Is there a typical way a horn's sound and feel are affected when you replace the original slide's outer with a carbon fiber one?
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Trevorspaulding376
Posts: 610
Joined: Dec 23, 2018

by Trevorspaulding376 »

Some say they don’t like the sound of the carbon fiber outers , I think it’s more of a feedback from the player behind the horn type of deal but it’s very much a personal thing , definitely lighter but I know a few far better players than I that did feel there was a sound trade off ,

Others love them , I think it’s just different , not better or worse but try to see if you can find someone who has one to try before committing
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Doug_Elliott
Posts: 4155
Joined: Mar 22, 2018

by Doug_Elliott »

Schmelzer model 1 is .500, very lightweight, very well balanced, easy to hold with a Williams-style grip, and plays great.
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Monkhouse
Posts: 55
Joined: May 12, 2020

by Monkhouse »

[quote="greenbean"]The lightest horns I have are 2B's, small Bachs with LT slides, and a Conn 6H. One could always remove oversleeves to make a slide lighter - like the 6H.[/quote]

I have a 2b with lightweight slide conversion. I can't remember what it sounded like beforehand though.
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Reedman1
Posts: 310
Joined: Apr 14, 2018

by Reedman1 »

[quote="bobroden"]Is there a typical way a horn's sound and feel are affected when you replace the original slide's outer with a carbon fiber one?[/quote]

In my experience, the biggest difference is simply the overall weight and balance, both of which improve with a CF outer slide. You may find you have to articulate a bit more energetically, but that could be down to any number of reasons. Your sound will be either unchanged or so minimally changed that it will make no difference.
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bobroden
Posts: 135
Joined: Apr 23, 2018

by bobroden »

[quote="Doug Elliott"]Schmelzer model 1 is .500, very lightweight, very well balanced, easy to hold with a Williams-style grip, and plays great.[/quote]
Thanks, Doug, I'm not familiar with that horn and am glad to get it on my radar. I see that the model 2 is also described as lightweight -- do you have any sense of the difference between the model 1 and the model 2, in terms of weight or other characteristics?
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ithinknot
Posts: 1339
Joined: Jul 24, 2020

by ithinknot »

[quote="Reedman1"]the overall weight and balance, both of which improve with a CF outer slide[/quote]

...except when the left-right balance changes in a way that exacerbates existing issues. How does your horn feel in position with the outer slide removed entirely? It's a lot lighter, sure, but countering the outwards roll via your index finger and wrist may drive you nuts.

What Fidbone said above about balance mattering more than weight... The trombone is such a weird ergonomic proposition to begin with, and 'physical problems' covers so many possibilities. You just have to try stuff.

Even a light bell section like a Martin Urbie is a lot more comfortable for me with a counterweight. And once counterweights are involved, try them off-center, down by the neckpipe for less torque - even if ferrules require drilling them out partially. (On some horns it plays better there too... or worse. I'd be surprised if you don't notice a difference one way or the other.)
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Burgerbob
Posts: 6327
Joined: Apr 23, 2018

by Burgerbob »

[quote="ithinknot"]<QUOTE author="Reedman1" post_id="179079" time="1653325681" user_id="3067">
the overall weight and balance, both of which improve with a CF outer slide[/quote]

...except when the left-right balance changes in a way that exacerbates existing issues. How does your horn feel in position with the outer slide removed entirely? It's a lot lighter, sure, but countering the outwards roll via your index finger and wrist may drive you nuts.

</QUOTE>

:clever:

This was the worst issue I have with my Butler slide.
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Reedman1
Posts: 310
Joined: Apr 14, 2018

by Reedman1 »

[quote="ithinknot"]<QUOTE author="Reedman1" post_id="179079" time="1653325681" user_id="3067">
the overall weight and balance, both of which improve with a CF outer slide[/quote]

...except when the left-right balance changes in a way that exacerbates existing issues. How does your horn feel in position with the outer slide removed entirely? It's a lot lighter, sure, but countering the outwards roll via your index finger and wrist may drive you nuts.

What Fidbone said above about balance mattering more than weight... The trombone is such a weird ergonomic proposition to begin with, and 'physical problems' covers so many possibilities. You just have to try stuff.

Even a light bell section like a Martin Urbie is a lot more comfortable for me with a counterweight. And once counterweights are involved, try them off-center, down by the neckpipe for less torque - even if ferrules require drilling them out partially. (On some horns it plays better there too... or worse. I'd be surprised if you don't notice a difference one way or the other.)
</QUOTE>

I haven’t really noticed that issue. My first Butler slide is on a 2B with a Peppy bell. The Peppy bell is a little heavy, but I just let it sink into my left hand and I’m all right. The other Butler slide is on a Butler JJ, which has its own balance issues - but the lateral balance isn’t bothersome. BTW I have communicated with Dave Butler about counterweights (needed!), and I think I got through to him. Could take a while, though.
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Doug_Elliott
Posts: 4155
Joined: Mar 22, 2018

by Doug_Elliott »

[quote="bobroden"]<QUOTE author="Doug Elliott" post_id="179046" time="1653259929" user_id="51">
Schmelzer model 1 is .500, very lightweight, very well balanced, easy to hold with a Williams-style grip, and plays great.[/quote]
Thanks, Doug, I'm not familiar with that horn and am glad to get it on my radar. I see that the model 2 is also described as lightweight -- do you have any sense of the difference between the model 1 and the model 2, in terms of weight or other characteristics?
</QUOTE>

I'm not sure if I've tried any current model 2's... just older ones. It's a .508 that feels significantly larger, and slightly heavier, than a model 1. I have two very early model 1's and a friend has an early model 2 that I played recently.

I think Horn Guys is his only distributor in the US, and I have no idea if they have any in stock.

The past few years when he's been at ITF I thought the new horns were outstanding. He's not coming this year.
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ACBEric
Posts: 37
Joined: Apr 11, 2022

by ACBEric »

The XO 1632RLT and the XO 1634RLT are some of the lightest in weight that I have ever picked up and played. The really pleasant surprise is how full and rich they play. I expected them, due to their weight, to be very bright and to my surprise they had a very moderate and even tone (to even a darker tone with the 1634). I am very impressed with these horns.
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DaveAshley
Posts: 240
Joined: Aug 01, 2018

by DaveAshley »

[quote="EKTrombone"]Lawler horns are the lightest that I've ever hold so far[/quote]
My Lawler 1 is easily the heaviest non F-attachment horn I own.

My favorite light horn is the Martin Urbie Green -- very comfortable to hold!
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ssking2b
Posts: 487
Joined: Sep 29, 2018

by ssking2b »

I’m playing the XO 1632. Very light, with a fantastic lightweight slide, and sounds phenomenal
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bobroden
Posts: 135
Joined: Apr 23, 2018

by bobroden »

[quote="Doug Elliott"]

I'm not sure if I've tried any current model 2's... just older ones. It's a .508 that feels significantly larger, and slightly heavier, than a model 1. I have two very early model 1's and a friend has an early model 2 that I played recently.
[/quote]

Thanks, Doug, that's helpful. I hadn't noticed that the model 2 is a .508, so the model 1 is definitely more my style.
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dershem
Posts: 117
Joined: Aug 16, 2018

by dershem »

I recently got the XO Fedchock, and I love it. It is very light, very responsive, and has a beautiful sound. Much better than my old 2B.
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bobroden
Posts: 135
Joined: Apr 23, 2018

by bobroden »

[quote="dershem"]I recently got the XO Fedchock, and I love it. It is very light, very responsive, and has a beautiful sound. Much better than my old 2B.[/quote]

Glad to hear that's working out for you. Have you played it yet in a group situation, as opposed to by yourself? I always feel like I can't judge a horn until I see how it feels in an ensemble -- for me, usually a jazz combo setting.
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Thrawn22
Posts: 1436
Joined: Sep 06, 2018

by Thrawn22 »

[quote="Monkhouse"]<QUOTE author="greenbean" post_id="178975" time="1653177209" user_id="150">
The lightest horns I have are 2B's, small Bachs with LT slides, and a Conn 6H. One could always remove oversleeves to make a slide lighter - like the 6H.[/quote]

I have a 2b with lightweight slide conversion. I can't remember what it sounded like beforehand though.
</QUOTE>

I'm fooling with the idea of having an oversleeve or 2 removed. Doing so does affect the sound though.

Bell weight isn't an issue for me except when it becomes too light. The 100H and Jiggs 2B are unbearably light.
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bigbandbone
Posts: 602
Joined: Jan 17, 2019

by bigbandbone »

Any vintage Conn smallbore would be very light. And the .485 bore horns play much bigger than expected. When I'm not playing bass bone I'm playing on a highly modified 20H Conquest. Very light, easy to hold up. And plays great.
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dershem
Posts: 117
Joined: Aug 16, 2018

by dershem »

[quote="bobroden"]<QUOTE author="dershem" post_id="179456" time="1653699330" user_id="3640">
I recently got the XO Fedchock, and I love it. It is very light, very responsive, and has a beautiful sound. Much better than my old 2B.[/quote]

Glad to hear that's working out for you. Have you played it yet in a group situation, as opposed to by yourself? I always feel like I can't judge a horn until I see how it feels in an ensemble -- for me, usually a jazz combo setting.
</QUOTE>

I've played it on a a few gigs now. A jazz combo, a rock band and a big band playing 2nd chair. Takes a bit more effort for the last, but the lead player there is very loud.
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bobroden
Posts: 135
Joined: Apr 23, 2018

by bobroden »

[quote="dershem"]<QUOTE author="bobroden" post_id="179538" time="1653779024" user_id="3127">

Glad to hear that's working out for you. Have you played it yet in a group situation, as opposed to by yourself? I always feel like I can't judge a horn until I see how it feels in an ensemble -- for me, usually a jazz combo setting.[/quote]

I've played it on a a few gigs now. A jazz combo, a rock band and a big band playing 2nd chair. Takes a bit more effort for the last, but the lead player there is very loud.
</QUOTE>

Excellent, glad to hear it. It's impressive that a horn that light can hold its own in all those settings.
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HermanGerman
Posts: 127
Joined: Oct 29, 2021

by HermanGerman »

[quote="ACBEric"]The XO 1632RLT and the XO 1634RLT are some of the lightest in weight that I have ever picked up and played. The really pleasant surprise is how full and rich they play. I expected them, due to their weight, to be very bright and to my surprise they had a very moderate and even tone (to even a darker tone with the 1634). I am very impressed with these horns.[/quote]

I recently bought a second XO 1634. The yellow brass bell section without tuning slide has 483 gr, the red brass bell 523 gr. I think the 1632 bells are even lighter (sure because they are smaller, too)
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dukesboneman
Posts: 935
Joined: Apr 02, 2018

by dukesboneman »

I had a King 2B+ that was by far THE Lightest instrument I`d ever played

I currently have a Bach 12 that I had the hand slide over sleeves taken off and a Nickel light weight crook put on. Surprising light and yet it play some what darker.

I`ve tried the Fedchocks and they are very light.

I don`t know if you want to go this route, Kai Winding used to take New 2B`s and have King strip them and relacquer them so they would extra light. <LINK_TEXT text="http://bjbear71.com/Winding/Non-album1. ... g%20Played">http://bjbear71.com/Winding/Non-album1.html#What%20Kai%20Winding%20Played</LINK_TEXT>
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Matt_K
Posts: 4809
Joined: Mar 21, 2018

by Matt_K »

[quote="dukesboneman"]I had a King 2B+ that was by far THE Lightest instrument I`d ever played

I currently have a Bach 12 that I had the hand slide over sleeves taken off and a Nickel light weight crook put on. Surprising light and yet it play some what darker.

I`ve tried the Fedchocks and they are very light.

I don`t know if you want to go this route, Kai Winding used to take New 2B`s and have King strip them and relacquer them so they would extra light. <LINK_TEXT text="http://bjbear71.com/Winding/Non-album1. ... g%20Played">http://bjbear71.com/Winding/Non-album1.html#What%20Kai%20Winding%20Played</LINK_TEXT>[/quote]

What crook did you put on it?

I picked up an M/K drawing Olds .515 crook that I'm having put on my franken 606/607 slide (on user Crazy4Tbone86's bench waiting for the 606 parts now!). Curious how that will turn out, but unfortunately I won't know if it's the crook or any of the other crazy stuff I'm doing if the slide turns out well. :lol:

I've had similar experiences with nickel crooks. I think the reason they paradoxically sound darker to me is I have a slightly easier time articulating, so I consequently have more control over the timbre. Maybe.
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Conn100HGuy
Posts: 126
Joined: Oct 22, 2018

by Conn100HGuy »

The Conn 100H has 2 mentions - one positive and one negative. I'll add a positive rating. If you get a chance to try one, go for it.
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hyperbolica
Posts: 3990
Joined: Mar 23, 2018

by hyperbolica »

[quote="Conn100HGuy"]The Conn 100H has 2 mentions - one positive and one negative. I'll add a positive rating. If you get a chance to try one, go for it.[/quote]

I've played a few of these. One was amazing, another was uninspiring, a third was junk. I'd have to play one of these before I put money down on one again. I really want them to be great instruments, especially with the pedigree and the previous success of the 6h.

I'm not sure it's considered light weight, but I had a Wessex copy of the Martin Urbie Green 4501 which was a really solid straight up 0.500 bore. Nothing fancy, but well made and it was a joy to play, and cheap. It would make a nice backup horn, even a good younger player horn, or maybe just a very playable 500 bore if you don't already have one.
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dukesboneman
Posts: 935
Joined: Apr 02, 2018

by dukesboneman »

MattK,

I put a Bach 12 Nickel crook on it. I looked all over the country for one. Bach had none, I checked with many different instrument shops (Dillons, Hickeys, etc) nobody had one EXCEPT........ Brad Close. The horn played great before but now it`s a freer and much lighter.

I had a 16M some years ago and I wanted to open it up. I was playing in a High Energy, High Powered R&B Band at the time. I put a Kanstul H8 leadpipe in it and had 3B hand slide and tuning slide crooks put on it. This thing just SANG in the upper range and held together at no matter what the volume was. And took all the air you could give it.