What's the main purpose with an Alto?
- imsevimse
- Posts: 1765
- Joined: Apr 29, 2018
In another thread there is a discussion about different alto's. What's the best alto? Pros and negs with a Conn 34h, 36h versus a Bach 39? My guess is the Bach 39 will lose because I have read several threads and most ends with not much good said about the Bach 39.
I want to answer some common negative statements on the Bach 39 I've read here over years?
Statement: "The Bach 39 has intonation quirks"
True but also not true. The intonation can be learned and it is not more difficult than to adopt to other switches we do. When learned then the intonation is not bad.
Statement: "The Bach 39 is too small and stuffy"
I've read here (on the forum) many people who don't play alto much just don't like the Bach because it is too small and is hard to play (hard to play=intonation quirks and stuffy) but then none discuss its purpose. Everything can be learned and as one that switch a lot it isn't that a big problem to get used to a different horn. Why consider a Bach 39? It really depends on what it is used for. The gain is in sound and it comes from its size but of course taste depends on what we want. The stuffyness comes from overblowing and not finding the sweetspot. It is easy to overblow a small horn if you come from a large horn. Back off with the air and also back off from the face on this little horn and it is not stuffy.
Statement: "The Bach 39 is too trumpety"
It isn't an alto that plays VERY big, but when would that be appropriate? I have used my alto mostly in church gigs and it is probably the horn that paid best from all my horns. It is really easy to play soft with a sound that shines without being loud in small orchestras with only a few strings and easy to lead a trombonesection without being loud.
Statement: "The Bach 39 does not blend"
Something that everybody probably agree on but often is neglected when we judge our musical surroundings is that sitting next to someone who can play that Bach 39 alto really well is a different experience from sitting next to someone who has not solved the quirks, and even professional players with very high skills need to learn how to adopt different to equipment and find the ways how to best make advantage of it. Someone who pushes that alto as if it was a tenor gets a hard time with the horn, the same if the mouthpiece is to large. It can not be played like that. On that horn it is most important to back of with the air and not push and find the sweet spot. You know when you find it because then air lasts forever.
To my question: "What's the main purpose with an Alto?"
Often when I hear alto played it sounds like a stuffy small bore tenor which I think is a waste, then I question myself why not use a small bore tenor instead? Can it be that symphonic players often skip the small bore size in the arsenal or consider it to only be an instrument for jazz so small for them then means alto OR is it because the part is in alto-clef and therefore indicates it should be played on alto OR is it because the part is high? When I listen I don't think many think the reason is they want a different ALTO-SOUND on that part. It doesn't sound like that.
You could argue nothing of this matters and the only thing that matters is what comes out of the horns as "music". It's a good argument but what is then music? In this case ione tiny part of what this "music" consists of is in question and that is the difference in sound. Should there really be an alto sound?
Well, if the sound concept that the player and listener want is not that light colored then they should not go with a Bach 39. It has an elegance in soft playing where it shines and sparkles through and indeed is more close to a trumpet sound and that's where I want it to be, it's like the bridge between the trumpet section and the larger trombones. It is what glues trumpets and trombones together when it is perfect, by the way THAT was my answer to the question, now what's yours?
A thought if anyone want a horn cheap with slide that is in high Eb and sounds like a tenor they can consider one of the Thomann alto's. Very pricey worth. I have two of them and they sound like small bore tenors, really good and easy to play horns too.
/Tom
I want to answer some common negative statements on the Bach 39 I've read here over years?
Statement: "The Bach 39 has intonation quirks"
True but also not true. The intonation can be learned and it is not more difficult than to adopt to other switches we do. When learned then the intonation is not bad.
Statement: "The Bach 39 is too small and stuffy"
I've read here (on the forum) many people who don't play alto much just don't like the Bach because it is too small and is hard to play (hard to play=intonation quirks and stuffy) but then none discuss its purpose. Everything can be learned and as one that switch a lot it isn't that a big problem to get used to a different horn. Why consider a Bach 39? It really depends on what it is used for. The gain is in sound and it comes from its size but of course taste depends on what we want. The stuffyness comes from overblowing and not finding the sweetspot. It is easy to overblow a small horn if you come from a large horn. Back off with the air and also back off from the face on this little horn and it is not stuffy.
Statement: "The Bach 39 is too trumpety"
It isn't an alto that plays VERY big, but when would that be appropriate? I have used my alto mostly in church gigs and it is probably the horn that paid best from all my horns. It is really easy to play soft with a sound that shines without being loud in small orchestras with only a few strings and easy to lead a trombonesection without being loud.
Statement: "The Bach 39 does not blend"
Something that everybody probably agree on but often is neglected when we judge our musical surroundings is that sitting next to someone who can play that Bach 39 alto really well is a different experience from sitting next to someone who has not solved the quirks, and even professional players with very high skills need to learn how to adopt different to equipment and find the ways how to best make advantage of it. Someone who pushes that alto as if it was a tenor gets a hard time with the horn, the same if the mouthpiece is to large. It can not be played like that. On that horn it is most important to back of with the air and not push and find the sweet spot. You know when you find it because then air lasts forever.
To my question: "What's the main purpose with an Alto?"
Often when I hear alto played it sounds like a stuffy small bore tenor which I think is a waste, then I question myself why not use a small bore tenor instead? Can it be that symphonic players often skip the small bore size in the arsenal or consider it to only be an instrument for jazz so small for them then means alto OR is it because the part is in alto-clef and therefore indicates it should be played on alto OR is it because the part is high? When I listen I don't think many think the reason is they want a different ALTO-SOUND on that part. It doesn't sound like that.
You could argue nothing of this matters and the only thing that matters is what comes out of the horns as "music". It's a good argument but what is then music? In this case ione tiny part of what this "music" consists of is in question and that is the difference in sound. Should there really be an alto sound?
Well, if the sound concept that the player and listener want is not that light colored then they should not go with a Bach 39. It has an elegance in soft playing where it shines and sparkles through and indeed is more close to a trumpet sound and that's where I want it to be, it's like the bridge between the trumpet section and the larger trombones. It is what glues trumpets and trombones together when it is perfect, by the way THAT was my answer to the question, now what's yours?
A thought if anyone want a horn cheap with slide that is in high Eb and sounds like a tenor they can consider one of the Thomann alto's. Very pricey worth. I have two of them and they sound like small bore tenors, really good and easy to play horns too.
/Tom
- Finetales
- Posts: 1482
- Joined: Mar 23, 2018
Altos can have different sound purposes, just like a zingy small bore tenor and a dark large bore orchestral tenor do. I love the feel and sound of a traditional German-style alto like the Laetzsch, but I've also played some fabulous large bore (as large as straight .547) altos that were incredible instruments and not at all tenor-like. A big, beefy, modern orchestral alto sound, that is a perfect match for a modern orchestral tenor and bass.
- tbonesullivan
- Posts: 1959
- Joined: Jul 02, 2019
I haven't noticed the intonation on my 39 to be any more quirky than on my bach 42. If you don't use the bell as a reference, there should be any problems. I also never have a problem getting the E within the staff. Playing nothing but a straight trombone for years led me to not be afraid of 7th position.
- BGuttman
- Posts: 7368
- Joined: Mar 22, 2018
I bought an alto when I was playing 1st in an orchestra that supported a chorus. I found that the 1st trombone part often doubles the altos and no matter how small a tenor I played, I still was too loud. The alto let me float a line out to support them without burying them.
I got one of the first Conn 36H trombones and I really like it. Yes, it's probably more tenor-like than many of the European makes (or the Bach 39), but it did allow me to play 1st trombone parts in Community Band and the 3rd part (normally French Horn) in Brass Quintet. It's not a true substitute for a French Horn -- doesn't sound anything like one.
One time I had a revelation about bridging. I happened to bring my 1925 Olds to orchestra rehearsal and we were playing Sibelius 2nd Symphony. There are some really tasty chorales between the trombones and the trumpets and I found that the old Olds bridged the sound "gap" a lot better than my usual large bore.
Back when I was growing up altos were pretty rare beasts. You only bought one AFTER you won the audition to play Principal in the orchestra. I was really surprised to see so many of the younger players here clamoring for an alto trombone.
I got one of the first Conn 36H trombones and I really like it. Yes, it's probably more tenor-like than many of the European makes (or the Bach 39), but it did allow me to play 1st trombone parts in Community Band and the 3rd part (normally French Horn) in Brass Quintet. It's not a true substitute for a French Horn -- doesn't sound anything like one.
One time I had a revelation about bridging. I happened to bring my 1925 Olds to orchestra rehearsal and we were playing Sibelius 2nd Symphony. There are some really tasty chorales between the trombones and the trumpets and I found that the old Olds bridged the sound "gap" a lot better than my usual large bore.
Back when I was growing up altos were pretty rare beasts. You only bought one AFTER you won the audition to play Principal in the orchestra. I was really surprised to see so many of the younger players here clamoring for an alto trombone.
- harrisonreed
- Posts: 6479
- Joined: Aug 17, 2018
Conn 36H. This is what an alto might be used for. It sounds like an alto, not a tenor. I think it's a function of the mouthpiece cup and backbore, and of course the musician:
<YOUTUBE id="4L6dJGaOpxo">[media]https://youtu.be/4L6dJGaOpxo</YOUTUBE>
<YOUTUBE id="4L6dJGaOpxo">
- imsevimse
- Posts: 1765
- Joined: Apr 29, 2018
<span class="emoji" title=":wink:">😉</span> That is a more rare use Harrison. I had not heard that.
I was more in to why an average person or aspiring professional musician would want one and what the purpose and use would be? As I think most probably get one to fill the chair, or to get the high notes and perhaps not for the purpose of the alto sound. Hearing this it makes me wonder why he did it on alto? A chance is he did it on alto because it takes less air but who knows. It was impressing
/Tom
I was more in to why an average person or aspiring professional musician would want one and what the purpose and use would be? As I think most probably get one to fill the chair, or to get the high notes and perhaps not for the purpose of the alto sound. Hearing this it makes me wonder why he did it on alto? A chance is he did it on alto because it takes less air but who knows. It was impressing
/Tom
- MrHCinDE
- Posts: 1039
- Joined: Jul 01, 2018
I would categorise myself as an enthusiastic amateur who has been lucky to get a seat with an ambitious local orchestra.
We’ve recently played Brahms, Beethoven and Haydn and next year have a Mozart mass with a nice alto part also. I won’t get into the discussion of whether alto is really necessary for these works but I personally enjoy the sound of the section more when I play alto on these. I was also able to convince the conductor, who was initially sceptical as he thought he wanted a more even sound across the parts, but after playing both options for him in a sectional, he was convinced.
I find my Conn 36h makes a substantially different sound to a small bore tenor, at least for me. Maybe other altos would be lighter or darker but overall the balance just works in our section, even with others on large tenor and bass.
After I got an alto for that purpose, I’ve branched out to playing it in a 10-piece group for some pieces. I also like the different colour it offers there. I find it works nicely alongside the one french horn we have as a bridge between trumpets (or Flugels) and the tenor trombones. The Bb valve comes in handy if I double some horn parts.
I wouldn’t get too hung up on whether one alto is a bit lighter or darker, that’s probably more to do with the player and mouthpiece anyway. The differences between altos are all relative in the context of the differences between alto and tenor, in my opinion.
We’ve recently played Brahms, Beethoven and Haydn and next year have a Mozart mass with a nice alto part also. I won’t get into the discussion of whether alto is really necessary for these works but I personally enjoy the sound of the section more when I play alto on these. I was also able to convince the conductor, who was initially sceptical as he thought he wanted a more even sound across the parts, but after playing both options for him in a sectional, he was convinced.
I find my Conn 36h makes a substantially different sound to a small bore tenor, at least for me. Maybe other altos would be lighter or darker but overall the balance just works in our section, even with others on large tenor and bass.
After I got an alto for that purpose, I’ve branched out to playing it in a 10-piece group for some pieces. I also like the different colour it offers there. I find it works nicely alongside the one french horn we have as a bridge between trumpets (or Flugels) and the tenor trombones. The Bb valve comes in handy if I double some horn parts.
I wouldn’t get too hung up on whether one alto is a bit lighter or darker, that’s probably more to do with the player and mouthpiece anyway. The differences between altos are all relative in the context of the differences between alto and tenor, in my opinion.
- Matt_K
- Posts: 4809
- Joined: Mar 21, 2018
I've never been particularly compelled by the "if you put in more work the result will be more rewarding" argument because that's tautological in my opinion. Of course if you put in more hours, you'll have more reward. But there's no limiting principle to that and you could equally say that you should simply practice so much that you can pull a Jay Friedman and do a compelling Rhenish on a 562 with a 9" bell.
And the 39 can be quirky with regard to intonation even compared to other smaller altos such as the YSL671, or at least that has been my direct experience. That isn't to say it's bad but having started out on a Bach 39, I found it to be very frustrating. I could have then chosen to double down on it, but the conductors, peers, and instructors I had all agreed even the JinBao I ultimately replaced it with was hands down a better choice for me... so I ended up spending considerably less on that and then later the Conn 36H I had. Although the YSL671 was a contender as well.
At the end of the day, we all have finite amounts of time to practice and since the alto is so niche, it's possible that even if the 39 is the platonic ideal of an alto trombone, it might just mean that fewer people dedicate as much time to alto to get there. Clearly, as Harrison's video illustrates, it is quite possible to play other, larger altos at an extremely high level of artistry (and without overflowing etc.). And it clearly sounds like an alto. If it didn't, I would most certainly still have my 36H because I would love to have a short horn that plays and sounds exactly like a small, Bb tenor. But despite all the altos I've tried... (& modded...) never quite gotten a tenor sound out of an alto.
And the 39 can be quirky with regard to intonation even compared to other smaller altos such as the YSL671, or at least that has been my direct experience. That isn't to say it's bad but having started out on a Bach 39, I found it to be very frustrating. I could have then chosen to double down on it, but the conductors, peers, and instructors I had all agreed even the JinBao I ultimately replaced it with was hands down a better choice for me... so I ended up spending considerably less on that and then later the Conn 36H I had. Although the YSL671 was a contender as well.
At the end of the day, we all have finite amounts of time to practice and since the alto is so niche, it's possible that even if the 39 is the platonic ideal of an alto trombone, it might just mean that fewer people dedicate as much time to alto to get there. Clearly, as Harrison's video illustrates, it is quite possible to play other, larger altos at an extremely high level of artistry (and without overflowing etc.). And it clearly sounds like an alto. If it didn't, I would most certainly still have my 36H because I would love to have a short horn that plays and sounds exactly like a small, Bb tenor. But despite all the altos I've tried... (& modded...) never quite gotten a tenor sound out of an alto.
- ithinknot
- Posts: 1339
- Joined: Jul 24, 2020
[quote="Matt K"]I would love to have a short horn that plays and sounds exactly like a small, Bb tenor.[/quote]
Why do you want that?
Why do you want that?
- hornbuilder
- Posts: 1384
- Joined: May 02, 2018
A BIG part of "why" we play an alto is the sound being different. The biggest reason "why" the sound is different is because of the length of the resonating tube. A middle Bb on alto is a lower relative pitch in a shorter tube, resonating an Eb harmonic series. Where as that same note on a Bb tenor is a higher relative note on a longer tube, resonating a Bb harmonic series.
I brought similar ideas up on the Real F Bass thread. We don't use a contra because it is a Low Note Getter, just like an alto isn't a High Note Getter. An Eb instrument "cannot" sound like a Bb instrument because it is playing the same notes on a different harmonic series on a shorter tube length.
I brought similar ideas up on the Real F Bass thread. We don't use a contra because it is a Low Note Getter, just like an alto isn't a High Note Getter. An Eb instrument "cannot" sound like a Bb instrument because it is playing the same notes on a different harmonic series on a shorter tube length.
- Matt_K
- Posts: 4809
- Joined: Mar 21, 2018
[quote="ithinknot"]<QUOTE author="Matt K" post_id="182363" time="1656797541" user_id="48">
I would love to have a short horn that plays and sounds exactly like a small, Bb tenor.[/quote]
Why do you want that?
</QUOTE>
An Eb/Bb (or heaven forbid, an Eb/Bb/A or something) would be fully chromatic and weigh like 25% less than a tenor. They're really, really compact too. No real reason for a screw bell because they can be so small, even! Not to mention it would mean the ability to fit into slightly tighter spaces on stage too, which isn't something that I've had to deal with for awhile but nonetheless would be really handy from time-to-time.
But like Matthew said, being pitched in Eb... even with an "ascending" rotor (where the rotor is depressed by default and activating it puts it in Eb), it doesn't sound like a tenor because the proportions are totally different. I've even got a 525/547 Wessex alto that I've been meaning to put a Bb valve on. I'm probably not going to do it at this point since I have other more important projects. Maybe one of these days. But I just think Bb stuff is going to prove to have more utility. As much as I wish I could have a super lightweight alto in a cronkhite I can sling over my shoulder and call it a day for anything-not-bass related!
I would love to have a short horn that plays and sounds exactly like a small, Bb tenor.[/quote]
Why do you want that?
</QUOTE>
An Eb/Bb (or heaven forbid, an Eb/Bb/A or something) would be fully chromatic and weigh like 25% less than a tenor. They're really, really compact too. No real reason for a screw bell because they can be so small, even! Not to mention it would mean the ability to fit into slightly tighter spaces on stage too, which isn't something that I've had to deal with for awhile but nonetheless would be really handy from time-to-time.
But like Matthew said, being pitched in Eb... even with an "ascending" rotor (where the rotor is depressed by default and activating it puts it in Eb), it doesn't sound like a tenor because the proportions are totally different. I've even got a 525/547 Wessex alto that I've been meaning to put a Bb valve on. I'm probably not going to do it at this point since I have other more important projects. Maybe one of these days. But I just think Bb stuff is going to prove to have more utility. As much as I wish I could have a super lightweight alto in a cronkhite I can sling over my shoulder and call it a day for anything-not-bass related!
- CalgaryTbone
- Posts: 1460
- Joined: May 10, 2018
Seeing all of the comparisons of different manufacturers of altos got me wondering about what were the specs of the various top sellers. The bore sizes are listed below - bell sizes and thickness of the metal on the bells makes a huge difference too, as well as bell materials, and there are others manufacturers that I've missed, but I think it's interesting to have a basis for comparison.
In no particular order -
Yamaha - .470/.490
Bach - .468
Conn - .491/.500
Edwards - .500
M & W - .500 (?)
Shires - .485, .485/.495
Rath - .481/.491, .481/.500
Courtois - .464/.492
K & H - .480, Slokar - .480/.488
Latsch - .468/.488
Adams (Glassl) - .480
JP Rath - .481
Thein - .500/.520 Universal, .528/.547 NY model, .508 Old German Style
Voight - .452
Like I said, I think the bell dimensions, weight and material make a huge difference - maybe more than the bore size. My Edwards is a pretty big horn, but is very light and all yellow brass. The soft playing is fantastic on that horn, and the sound is very clear, but with some nice warmth. It blends well with the rotary trumpets that are usually being used in the repertoire that I use alto trombone for.
Jim Scott
In no particular order -
Yamaha - .470/.490
Bach - .468
Conn - .491/.500
Edwards - .500
M & W - .500 (?)
Shires - .485, .485/.495
Rath - .481/.491, .481/.500
Courtois - .464/.492
K & H - .480, Slokar - .480/.488
Latsch - .468/.488
Adams (Glassl) - .480
JP Rath - .481
Thein - .500/.520 Universal, .528/.547 NY model, .508 Old German Style
Voight - .452
Like I said, I think the bell dimensions, weight and material make a huge difference - maybe more than the bore size. My Edwards is a pretty big horn, but is very light and all yellow brass. The soft playing is fantastic on that horn, and the sound is very clear, but with some nice warmth. It blends well with the rotary trumpets that are usually being used in the repertoire that I use alto trombone for.
Jim Scott