Resistence and alternate positions
- imsevimse
- Posts: 1765
- Joined: Apr 29, 2018
I come to think of this when I read the thread "Real Bass trombones"
Somewhere in that thread the discussion was about different soundspectras depending on where a note (the same note) is played. It got me thinking of all the practice I've done to overcome sound differences in the past when a note was introduced to me on an alternate position.
The goal was not to accept them as differences and to have an egal playing over the horn and to get that you were told you sooner or later needed to make use of the alternate positions.
One way of practicing this was to play the same note at different position and make them sound the same at different volumes and dynamics.
In the beginning when I practiced this I remembered the resistance felt very different. Just to play middle f on 1:st and then on 6:th was hard even though this is one of the first and easiest you learn and usually to introduce 6:th position to teach the note C to a student. Next is Bb on 1:st and 5:th and that was even harder (maybe after one or two years) and after that d on 1:st and 4:th and f above the staff on 1:st, 4:th and on 6:th (this must have been in high scool). Oh, man that far position added difficulties. That high f on 6:th felt as playing on a french horn and the note could easy be missed.
As I became better and added more and more alternate notes and improved my technique, the breathing, the legato, musicality and sound I just realize I've come to a point I no longer think of the resistance much. I do no longer think different on resistance on any of the alternate positions, not even the highest partials on the 7:th position.
What I think has happend gradually is I have learned to play in the pitch centre and then the effort is lot less to produce the notes correct and then the feel of resistance is masked by that. To me the differences in resistance is now only obvious when a note is missed. When I do this I have noticed the feeling from missed note is like hitting a ball with the wood in tennis. In tennis such a ball just dies and you feel the pain from all that force in the arm, it can even be the hand trembles. That to me is very similar to the experience I get if I hit and miss a note. Then I suddenly get all that feedback from resistance thrown right back at my lips, and that gives pain. Pain is from cracked notes not from high notes played correctly.
Thoughts?
/Tom
Somewhere in that thread the discussion was about different soundspectras depending on where a note (the same note) is played. It got me thinking of all the practice I've done to overcome sound differences in the past when a note was introduced to me on an alternate position.
The goal was not to accept them as differences and to have an egal playing over the horn and to get that you were told you sooner or later needed to make use of the alternate positions.
One way of practicing this was to play the same note at different position and make them sound the same at different volumes and dynamics.
In the beginning when I practiced this I remembered the resistance felt very different. Just to play middle f on 1:st and then on 6:th was hard even though this is one of the first and easiest you learn and usually to introduce 6:th position to teach the note C to a student. Next is Bb on 1:st and 5:th and that was even harder (maybe after one or two years) and after that d on 1:st and 4:th and f above the staff on 1:st, 4:th and on 6:th (this must have been in high scool). Oh, man that far position added difficulties. That high f on 6:th felt as playing on a french horn and the note could easy be missed.
As I became better and added more and more alternate notes and improved my technique, the breathing, the legato, musicality and sound I just realize I've come to a point I no longer think of the resistance much. I do no longer think different on resistance on any of the alternate positions, not even the highest partials on the 7:th position.
What I think has happend gradually is I have learned to play in the pitch centre and then the effort is lot less to produce the notes correct and then the feel of resistance is masked by that. To me the differences in resistance is now only obvious when a note is missed. When I do this I have noticed the feeling from missed note is like hitting a ball with the wood in tennis. In tennis such a ball just dies and you feel the pain from all that force in the arm, it can even be the hand trembles. That to me is very similar to the experience I get if I hit and miss a note. Then I suddenly get all that feedback from resistance thrown right back at my lips, and that gives pain. Pain is from cracked notes not from high notes played correctly.
Thoughts?
/Tom
- baileyman
- Posts: 1169
- Joined: Mar 24, 2018
I never understood the "make them sound the same" idea. The physics of the horn will force a somewhat different set of overtones for different slide positions. Why try to alter that at the chops? Neither have I understood the idea that the "right" sound for a note is the sound for the closer in position. These days, it's a choice between positions for "the nearest next note" and slide economy, with a preference for closer in, since they feel "easier" somehow. The weirdness in feel has basically gone away. They're all just notes now.
- EriKon
- Posts: 636
- Joined: Apr 03, 2022
I've never played tennis, so I can't relate to this analogy. But I would say as soon as something gives pain while playing, there is definitely something going really wrong (unless you have a pimple or the lip bursted open). Are you trying to compensate a missed note with mouthpiece pressure to push it right?
I found that missed notes usually are caused by the tongue not working correctly, unnecessary vocal cord activity or too much/little diaphragm support. Usually those go hand in hand, so if one thing is wrong the others might get problems, too. If those things are not working correctly, playing gets much more heavy and exhausting of course and therefore the chops get tired quicker.
About the alternate positions, it's like you said. It's about practice to get it going. If you can hit those, but miss them frequently, it needs practice in some sort of way as you described or other exercises (slurs, Clarke, scales and much more), so that you get used it and find them easily.
However, I still do have problems with all those things I mentioned as well and trying to get them working in the right way.
I found that missed notes usually are caused by the tongue not working correctly, unnecessary vocal cord activity or too much/little diaphragm support. Usually those go hand in hand, so if one thing is wrong the others might get problems, too. If those things are not working correctly, playing gets much more heavy and exhausting of course and therefore the chops get tired quicker.
About the alternate positions, it's like you said. It's about practice to get it going. If you can hit those, but miss them frequently, it needs practice in some sort of way as you described or other exercises (slurs, Clarke, scales and much more), so that you get used it and find them easily.
However, I still do have problems with all those things I mentioned as well and trying to get them working in the right way.
- imsevimse
- Posts: 1765
- Joined: Apr 29, 2018
[quote="baileyman"]I never understood the "make them sound the same" idea. The physics of the horn will force a somewhat different set of overtones for different slide positions. Why try to alter that at the chops? Neither have I understood the idea that the "right" sound for a note is the sound for the closer in position. These days, it's a choice between positions for "the nearest next note" and slide economy, with a preference for closer in, since they feel "easier" somehow. The weirdness in feel has basically gone away. They're all just notes now.[/quote]
I think it is the same idea as going from any note to any note. They need to be connected sound wise if that is what music calls for and the same with a sound at an alternate position. If the sound on the original position is the one you should chose is another question. I think the ideal sound must be the one that must exist in your head and that might be yet another sound. Just get that sound out on both notes, that would be my goal.
The first reason for alternate positions would then be for articulation and the second is for speed because slide work is helped. In those situation music may still call for an egal sound
/Tom
I think it is the same idea as going from any note to any note. They need to be connected sound wise if that is what music calls for and the same with a sound at an alternate position. If the sound on the original position is the one you should chose is another question. I think the ideal sound must be the one that must exist in your head and that might be yet another sound. Just get that sound out on both notes, that would be my goal.
The first reason for alternate positions would then be for articulation and the second is for speed because slide work is helped. In those situation music may still call for an egal sound
/Tom
- imsevimse
- Posts: 1765
- Joined: Apr 29, 2018
[quote="EriKon"]I've never played tennis, so I can't relate to this analogy. But I would say as soon as something gives pain while playing, there is definitely something going really wrong (unless you have a pimple or the lip bursted open). Are you trying to compensate a missed note with mouthpiece pressure to push it right?
I found that missed notes usually are caused by the tongue not working correctly, unnecessary vocal cord activity or too much/little diaphragm support. Usually those go hand in hand, so if one thing is wrong the others might get problems, too. If those things are not working correctly, playing gets much more heavy and exhausting of course and therefore the chops get tired quicker.
About the alternate positions, it's like you said. It's about practice to get it going. If you can hit those, but miss them frequently, it needs practice in some sort of way as you described or other exercises (slurs, Clarke, scales and much more), so that you get used it and find them easily.
However, I still do have problems with all those things I mentioned as well and trying to get them working in the right way.[/quote]
Yes, the tennis analogy might be for me. I'm no tennis player but I have made my share of tennis in youth. Wasn't very good so that's why the hit on wood comes to my mind. The notes that I think of as missed notes are when I just hit between two notes. On a good day that becomes a grace note and then my emboushure does not take much harm but a bad day such a note is just a trow in the dark and nothing comes out the horn besides maybe air. I'm not saying this happens a lot but it can happen and you are right it has to do with not preparing enough. It can happen if I have another note in the ear when I hit a note and my whole body expects something else. It can happen when I read primavista and it can happen if I'm short of air. To me it is a reminder of that I'm still learning and this mistake takes me all the way back to the years when I was a newbie. It's an accident that is totally unacceptable to a pro so I do my very best to learn from those situations. A grace note is okay, that's something that can happen to a any pro a bad day but a no-note-at-all-miss is just unacceptable to any pro. To my comfort it does not happen in concert situations it only happens when gard is down.
/Tom
I found that missed notes usually are caused by the tongue not working correctly, unnecessary vocal cord activity or too much/little diaphragm support. Usually those go hand in hand, so if one thing is wrong the others might get problems, too. If those things are not working correctly, playing gets much more heavy and exhausting of course and therefore the chops get tired quicker.
About the alternate positions, it's like you said. It's about practice to get it going. If you can hit those, but miss them frequently, it needs practice in some sort of way as you described or other exercises (slurs, Clarke, scales and much more), so that you get used it and find them easily.
However, I still do have problems with all those things I mentioned as well and trying to get them working in the right way.[/quote]
Yes, the tennis analogy might be for me. I'm no tennis player but I have made my share of tennis in youth. Wasn't very good so that's why the hit on wood comes to my mind. The notes that I think of as missed notes are when I just hit between two notes. On a good day that becomes a grace note and then my emboushure does not take much harm but a bad day such a note is just a trow in the dark and nothing comes out the horn besides maybe air. I'm not saying this happens a lot but it can happen and you are right it has to do with not preparing enough. It can happen if I have another note in the ear when I hit a note and my whole body expects something else. It can happen when I read primavista and it can happen if I'm short of air. To me it is a reminder of that I'm still learning and this mistake takes me all the way back to the years when I was a newbie. It's an accident that is totally unacceptable to a pro so I do my very best to learn from those situations. A grace note is okay, that's something that can happen to a any pro a bad day but a no-note-at-all-miss is just unacceptable to any pro. To my comfort it does not happen in concert situations it only happens when gard is down.
/Tom
- Kbiggs
- Posts: 1768
- Joined: Mar 24, 2018
I believe (a BIG caveat) the idea that alternate* positions should sound the same as the preferred* positions is more common for classical and legit musicians than for jazz and commercial musicians. For classical musicians, “alternates” are often used for convenience of slide movement for rapid passages, and for chromatic neighboring tones, much like non-classical music. But like Tom said, the goal is to have them sound pretty much the same, and a lot of practice goes into this. I’ve heard several reasons why, but I believe it’s a good approach. Having said that, I do like the sound of alternate positions in non-classical settings when you can hear the difference.
The “alternate” positions will always feel different due to resistance and where they lie in the harmonic series (partial or overtone), which is part of the reason why they sound different to the player (the ears behind the bell). People other than the player might not notice them or notice them as much, depending on the tempo, the duration of the note, intonation, and other factors.
*A side note: While I don’t like the term alternate position, and I don’t know of a better term for regular position, I can’t think of different or better terms in common use. Language informs our view of the world, so “alternate” implies that the note is less-than, or a second-class citizen, so to speak. Other terms and synonyms like different, substitute, replacement, and surrogate also imply a second-best status. Perhaps auxiliary comes closest, but haven’t heard many people use it. Even primary and secondary imply a relationship of “best” vs. “second best.”
This might be a problem mainly for English; I don’t know whether it’s similar in other languages.
The “alternate” positions will always feel different due to resistance and where they lie in the harmonic series (partial or overtone), which is part of the reason why they sound different to the player (the ears behind the bell). People other than the player might not notice them or notice them as much, depending on the tempo, the duration of the note, intonation, and other factors.
*A side note: While I don’t like the term alternate position, and I don’t know of a better term for regular position, I can’t think of different or better terms in common use. Language informs our view of the world, so “alternate” implies that the note is less-than, or a second-class citizen, so to speak. Other terms and synonyms like different, substitute, replacement, and surrogate also imply a second-best status. Perhaps auxiliary comes closest, but haven’t heard many people use it. Even primary and secondary imply a relationship of “best” vs. “second best.”
This might be a problem mainly for English; I don’t know whether it’s similar in other languages.
- harrisonreed
- Posts: 6479
- Joined: Aug 17, 2018
Where this becomes really apartment is on things like rips. Try ripping F4 to F5, 1st to 1st and then 1st to 6th. It's a lot easier ripping out to 6th. More resistance.
- robcat2075
- Posts: 1867
- Joined: Sep 03, 2018
[quote="harrisonreed"]Where this becomes really apartment is on things like rips.[/quote]
A "rip"?
[quote="Kbiggs"]... “alternate” implies that the note is less-than, or a second-class citizen, so to speak. Other terms and synonyms like different, substitute, replacement, and surrogate also imply a second-best status. Perhaps auxiliary comes closest, but haven’t heard many people use it. Even primary and secondary imply a relationship of “best” vs. “second best.”
This might be a problem mainly for English; I don’t know whether it’s similar in other languages.[/quote]
No, this is not a problem even in English.
For musical instrument fingering purposes, "alternate" means "[url=https://www.google.com/search?client=firefox-b-1-d&q=alternate++def]taking the place of", "[url=https://dictionary.cambridge.org/us/dictionary/english/alternate]one that can take the place of another", " [url=https://www.collinsdictionary.com/us/dictionary/english/alternate]a plan, idea, or system which is different from the one already in operation and can be used instead of it. "
Alternate is not a pejorative or diminishing term.
A "rip"?
[quote="Kbiggs"]... “alternate” implies that the note is less-than, or a second-class citizen, so to speak. Other terms and synonyms like different, substitute, replacement, and surrogate also imply a second-best status. Perhaps auxiliary comes closest, but haven’t heard many people use it. Even primary and secondary imply a relationship of “best” vs. “second best.”
This might be a problem mainly for English; I don’t know whether it’s similar in other languages.[/quote]
No, this is not a problem even in English.
For musical instrument fingering purposes, "alternate" means "
Alternate is not a pejorative or diminishing term.
- BGuttman
- Posts: 7368
- Joined: Mar 22, 2018
Rip is a legitimate term in trombone playing. Some people call them "Doits". It has a symbol of a line curving upward from the note. You see them on Big Band charts.
- OneTon
- Posts: 757
- Joined: Nov 02, 2021
Alternate in this sense comes from the Latin “alter,” which means other. There is no need to burden it with baggage of connotations that are not applicable.
- harrisonreed
- Posts: 6479
- Joined: Aug 17, 2018
[quote="robcat2075"]<QUOTE author="harrisonreed" post_id="182616" time="1657061058" user_id="3642">
Where this becomes really apartment is on things like rips.[/quote]
A "rip"?
</QUOTE>
<YOUTUBE id="P38NSRKUXM0">[media]https://youtu.be/P38NSRKUXM0</YOUTUBE>
Listen at 1:17
That is a rip from F to F, 1-6
Where this becomes really apartment is on things like rips.[/quote]
A "rip"?
</QUOTE>
<YOUTUBE id="P38NSRKUXM0">
Listen at 1:17
That is a rip from F to F, 1-6
- OneTon
- Posts: 757
- Joined: Nov 02, 2021
Nice. Stupid question: Is the fast trombone solo at 2:00 single or double tongued or can we tell?
- harrisonreed
- Posts: 6479
- Joined: Aug 17, 2018
Double tongued I think
- robcat2075
- Posts: 1867
- Joined: Sep 03, 2018
[quote="harrisonreed"]
Listen at 1:17
That is a rip from F to F, 1-6[/quote]
What was the notated intention? A scale or a glissando?
Listen at 1:17
That is a rip from F to F, 1-6[/quote]
What was the notated intention? A scale or a glissando?
- imsevimse
- Posts: 1765
- Joined: Apr 29, 2018
[quote="robcat2075"]<QUOTE author="harrisonreed" post_id="182647" time="1657100364" user_id="3642">
Listen at 1:17
That is a rip from F to F, 1-6[/quote]
What was the notated intention? A scale or a glissando?
</QUOTE>
I haven't seen the sheet music but to me that sounded like a scale that was played with a long slur against the grain in a continuous legato. It was that way I heard it but it could also go for a rip, but a very controlled rip with a very defined start and ending.
/Tom
Listen at 1:17
That is a rip from F to F, 1-6[/quote]
What was the notated intention? A scale or a glissando?
</QUOTE>
I haven't seen the sheet music but to me that sounded like a scale that was played with a long slur against the grain in a continuous legato. It was that way I heard it but it could also go for a rip, but a very controlled rip with a very defined start and ending.
/Tom
- Kbiggs
- Posts: 1768
- Joined: Mar 24, 2018
[quote="robcat"]<QUOTE author="Kbiggs" post_id="182584" time="1657040378" user_id="172">
... “alternate” implies that the note is less-than, or a second-class citizen, so to speak. Other terms and synonyms like different, substitute, replacement, and surrogate also imply a second-best status. Perhaps auxiliary comes closest, but haven’t heard many people use it. Even primary and secondary imply a relationship of “best” vs. “second best.”
This might be a problem mainly for English; I don’t know whether it’s similar in other languages.[/quote]
No, this is not a problem even in English.
For musical instrument fingering purposes, "alternate" means "[url=https://www.google.com/search?client=firefox-b-1-d&q=alternate++def]taking the place of", "[url=https://dictionary.cambridge.org/us/dictionary/english/alternate]one that can take the place of another", " [url=https://www.collinsdictionary.com/us/dictionary/english/alternate]a plan, idea, or system which is different from the one already in operation and can be used instead of it. "
Alternate is not a pejorative or diminishing term.
</QUOTE>
I do not believe alternate is pejorative or diminishing. See below.
[quote="OneTon"]Alternate in this sense comes from the Latin “alter,” which means other. There is no need to burden it with baggage of connotations that are not applicable.[/quote]
Again, thanks for the clarification.
I see now that what’s missing in what I wrote is that many students I’ve encountered feel or think that alternate positions are “not as good as the ‘real’ positions.” (A quote from a student a few years ago.)
I do still believe that “alternate” is partly a language problem. The word “other” also implies something different or foreign, as in “the other people over there,” i.e., “the people who are not a part of my group here.”
Part of the problem, as I see it, is that many students in my corner of the world only attend band classes. Private lessons are encouraged but not required. Few students have the opportunity of private lessons, or make time for them. Things that some of us take for granted are not learned, let alone brought to their attention.
... “alternate” implies that the note is less-than, or a second-class citizen, so to speak. Other terms and synonyms like different, substitute, replacement, and surrogate also imply a second-best status. Perhaps auxiliary comes closest, but haven’t heard many people use it. Even primary and secondary imply a relationship of “best” vs. “second best.”
This might be a problem mainly for English; I don’t know whether it’s similar in other languages.[/quote]
No, this is not a problem even in English.
For musical instrument fingering purposes, "alternate" means "
Alternate is not a pejorative or diminishing term.
</QUOTE>
I do not believe alternate is pejorative or diminishing. See below.
[quote="OneTon"]Alternate in this sense comes from the Latin “alter,” which means other. There is no need to burden it with baggage of connotations that are not applicable.[/quote]
Again, thanks for the clarification.
I see now that what’s missing in what I wrote is that many students I’ve encountered feel or think that alternate positions are “not as good as the ‘real’ positions.” (A quote from a student a few years ago.)
I do still believe that “alternate” is partly a language problem. The word “other” also implies something different or foreign, as in “the other people over there,” i.e., “the people who are not a part of my group here.”
Part of the problem, as I see it, is that many students in my corner of the world only attend band classes. Private lessons are encouraged but not required. Few students have the opportunity of private lessons, or make time for them. Things that some of us take for granted are not learned, let alone brought to their attention.
- OneTon
- Posts: 757
- Joined: Nov 02, 2021
Latin was the language of scholars and science until 1387 when Chaucer started writing Canterbury Tales. Latin helped accomplish clear communication and thinking. It also helped wrong headed ideas persist. But it did so clearly.
Dr. Wm. McKee was the Chair of the music school at the University of Tulsa, played 1st chair French horn in the Tulsa Philharmonic, and was at least a minor hot shot soloist. He used to say, “Never underestimate the ignorance of a student.” Private lessons speed things up but are by no means a panacea. I and most of my peers arrived at the university with a fair share of misconceptions and wrong headed ideas. Hopefully most of that was eliminated in obtaining an undergraduate degree but not always. Most if not all will be eliminated with the achievement of masters or doctorates.
When we wear our educator hats, we take our best shot and let it go. The younger the student the more we have to let go. It is not without frustration. There are thresholds of expectations at every age. Things get repeated until they find a permanent spot in the student’s head. Students of music in particular are learning how to listen.
Mastering music and/or an instrument is a life long process. I hope I never stop learning, and learning how to listen.
Dr. Wm. McKee was the Chair of the music school at the University of Tulsa, played 1st chair French horn in the Tulsa Philharmonic, and was at least a minor hot shot soloist. He used to say, “Never underestimate the ignorance of a student.” Private lessons speed things up but are by no means a panacea. I and most of my peers arrived at the university with a fair share of misconceptions and wrong headed ideas. Hopefully most of that was eliminated in obtaining an undergraduate degree but not always. Most if not all will be eliminated with the achievement of masters or doctorates.
When we wear our educator hats, we take our best shot and let it go. The younger the student the more we have to let go. It is not without frustration. There are thresholds of expectations at every age. Things get repeated until they find a permanent spot in the student’s head. Students of music in particular are learning how to listen.
Mastering music and/or an instrument is a life long process. I hope I never stop learning, and learning how to listen.
- robcat2075
- Posts: 1867
- Joined: Sep 03, 2018
Most English words have a number of possible meanings.
Trombone does.
If we eliminated all the words for which some clueless sixth grader might possibly claw out the most inappropriate meaning for the context there wouldn't be much left.
Trombone does.
If we eliminated all the words for which some clueless sixth grader might possibly claw out the most inappropriate meaning for the context there wouldn't be much left.
- Kbiggs
- Posts: 1768
- Joined: Mar 24, 2018
Writing in English is like throwing mud at a wall.
—Joseph Conrad
—Joseph Conrad
- dukesboneman
- Posts: 935
- Joined: Apr 02, 2018
Since I`ve retired I`ve really gotten into exploring the many alternate positions on the horn. I always used a few, Bb in 5th, High C in multiple places, etc. But now I`m getting into and really liking the alternate "F" attachment positions.
I`m also playing more Bass Trombone and these come in really handy
I`m also playing more Bass Trombone and these come in really handy