grammar of the euphonium
- Lastbone
- Posts: 56
- Joined: May 15, 2019
Do any of you have a clue whether the proper construction for a person playing euphonium is "a" euphonium player or "an" euphonium player? And would that person be ("a" or "an") euphoniumist or euphonist?
Curious minds need to know...
Curious minds need to know...
- BGuttman
- Posts: 7368
- Joined: Mar 22, 2018
Since the word sounds like it begins with Y ("You-phonium") I have always associated it with a simple A. If it sounded like a hard E ("Ee-phonium") I'd assume it would use "An".
- Matt_K
- Posts: 4809
- Joined: Mar 21, 2018
I typically say they are "The" Euphonium player but apparently there are more than one of us!
- Vegasbound
- Posts: 1328
- Joined: Jul 06, 2019
When one plays the euphonium, one is a euphonium player
- timothy42b
- Posts: 1812
- Joined: Mar 27, 2018
It starts with a vowel. I vote for "an."
I fed an elephant once.
I fed an elephant once.
- ithinknot
- Posts: 1339
- Joined: Jul 24, 2020
[quote="timothy42b"]It starts with a vowel. I vote for "an."[/quote]
No.
It's the sound (consonant vs vowel) that matters, not the actual letter. Usually the two coincide but, when they don't, sound is the determinant.
Thus the inverse case: 'an honest mistake' - consonant spelling but vowel sound
No.
It's the sound (consonant vs vowel) that matters, not the actual letter. Usually the two coincide but, when they don't, sound is the determinant.
Thus the inverse case: 'an honest mistake' - consonant spelling but vowel sound
- Burgerbob
- Posts: 6327
- Joined: Apr 23, 2018
[quote="timothy42b"]It starts with a vowel. I vote for "an."
I fed an elephant once.[/quote]
Euphonium is pronounced with a Y sound on front, though. You-phonium. It's about how it sounds, not how it looks.
I fed an elephant once.[/quote]
Euphonium is pronounced with a Y sound on front, though. You-phonium. It's about how it sounds, not how it looks.
- pompatus
- Posts: 434
- Joined: Mar 23, 2018
[quote="ithinknot"]<QUOTE author="timothy42b" post_id="183351" time="1657824279" user_id="211">
It starts with a vowel. I vote for "an."[/quote]
No.
It's the sound (consonant vs vowel) that matters, not the actual letter. Usually the two coincide but, when they don't, sound is the determinant.
Thus the inverse case: 'an honest mistake' - consonant spelling but vowel sound
</QUOTE>
Just to play “devil’s advocate” I’d bring up the word “history” which, grammatically accurately, we see preceded by “an”.
It starts with a vowel. I vote for "an."[/quote]
No.
It's the sound (consonant vs vowel) that matters, not the actual letter. Usually the two coincide but, when they don't, sound is the determinant.
Thus the inverse case: 'an honest mistake' - consonant spelling but vowel sound
</QUOTE>
Just to play “devil’s advocate” I’d bring up the word “history” which, grammatically accurately, we see preceded by “an”.
- ithinknot
- Posts: 1339
- Joined: Jul 24, 2020
[quote="pompatus"]“devil’s advocate”[/quote]
Oh sure - English is a ridiculous language and there's an exception to everything.
Actually, I'd say "a history" is normal and correct. It's "an historic/historical" that is the more accepted exception, both because most people at least partially suppress the H in that context, and as a more-or-less subconscious way of avoiding homophonic confusion with "ahistoric/ahistorical" which are words with an separate meaning <span class="emoji" title=":wink:">😉</span>
Oh sure - English is a ridiculous language and there's an exception to everything.
Actually, I'd say "a history" is normal and correct. It's "an historic/historical" that is the more accepted exception, both because most people at least partially suppress the H in that context, and as a more-or-less subconscious way of avoiding homophonic confusion with "ahistoric/ahistorical" which are words with an separate meaning <span class="emoji" title=":wink:">😉</span>
- JohnL
- Posts: 2529
- Joined: Mar 23, 2018
The simplest solution is to not have any euphoniums in the first place.
- pompatus
- Posts: 434
- Joined: Mar 23, 2018
Perhaps this is why most school band directors just say “a baritone”. :lol:
- Kbiggs
- Posts: 1768
- Joined: Mar 24, 2018
For a time, I recall that the instrument in question was referred to as a “blat-weasel.” Notice the “a.”
- Kbiggs
- Posts: 1768
- Joined: Mar 24, 2018
Of course, we could always employ the consonant-vowel rule for indefinite articles, as mentioned above:
An euphonium. An eunuch.
An so on…
An euphonium. An eunuch.
An so on…
- Posaunus
- Posts: 5018
- Joined: Mar 23, 2018
[quote="timothy42b"]It starts with a vowel. I vote for "an."[/quote]
Perhaps Timothy is an European?
Perhaps Timothy is an European?
- OneTon
- Posts: 757
- Joined: Nov 02, 2021
[quote="Posaunus"]<QUOTE author="timothy42b" post_id="183351" time="1657824279" user_id="211">
It starts with a vowel. I vote for "an."[/quote]
Perhaps Timothy is an European?
</QUOTE>
No: Timothy is “a” human.
It starts with a vowel. I vote for "an."[/quote]
Perhaps Timothy is an European?
</QUOTE>
No: Timothy is “a” human.
- elmsandr
- Posts: 1373
- Joined: Mar 23, 2018
[quote="Matt K"]I typically say they are "The" Euphonium player but apparently there are more than one of us![/quote]
Euphonium?
Never heard of 'em.
Cheers,
Andy
Euphonium?
Never heard of 'em.
Cheers,
Andy
- brassmedic
- Posts: 1447
- Joined: Dec 14, 2018
[quote="pompatus"]<QUOTE author="ithinknot" post_id="183359" time="1657826925" user_id="9763">
No.
It's the sound (consonant vs vowel) that matters, not the actual letter. Usually the two coincide but, when they don't, sound is the determinant.
Thus the inverse case: 'an honest mistake' - consonant spelling but vowel sound[/quote]
Just to play “devil’s advocate” I’d bring up the word “history” which, grammatically accurately, we see preceded by “an”.
</QUOTE>
Gotta disagree, there. It should be a history. Unless you drop the h when you say history. But wasn't there a whole scene in My Fair Lady about it being incorrect to drop the h at the beginning of words?
No.
It's the sound (consonant vs vowel) that matters, not the actual letter. Usually the two coincide but, when they don't, sound is the determinant.
Thus the inverse case: 'an honest mistake' - consonant spelling but vowel sound[/quote]
Just to play “devil’s advocate” I’d bring up the word “history” which, grammatically accurately, we see preceded by “an”.
</QUOTE>
Gotta disagree, there. It should be a history. Unless you drop the h when you say history. But wasn't there a whole scene in My Fair Lady about it being incorrect to drop the h at the beginning of words?
- timothy42b
- Posts: 1812
- Joined: Mar 27, 2018
I'm going to retract my earlier choice of an and go with a.
As pointed out it is supposed to be the sound rather than the letter. Google tells me I was wrong.
But I will cavil a little here. Is the invisible "y" really a consonant here? I grew up in Wisconsin but now live below the Mason-Dixon line. Dayouwn heah that y is pronounced eeeooofonium.
When I was a kid in high school they were baritones, only the pretentious used euphonium.
The relevance to playing trombone is that pure vowels are only for singing - there is an infinite amount of gradation between an ee and a ooh..............ee and an ooh.....and a u, ah well.
As pointed out it is supposed to be the sound rather than the letter. Google tells me I was wrong.
But I will cavil a little here. Is the invisible "y" really a consonant here? I grew up in Wisconsin but now live below the Mason-Dixon line. Dayouwn heah that y is pronounced eeeooofonium.
When I was a kid in high school they were baritones, only the pretentious used euphonium.
The relevance to playing trombone is that pure vowels are only for singing - there is an infinite amount of gradation between an ee and a ooh..............ee and an ooh.....and a u, ah well.
- Mikebmiller
- Posts: 961
- Joined: Mar 27, 2018
OK, while we are on the subject of English, why do Americans go to THE hospital or THE university, whereas Brits just go to hospital or university?
- Matt_K
- Posts: 4809
- Joined: Mar 21, 2018
[quote="Mikebmiller"]OK, while we are on the subject of English, why do Americans go to THE hospital or THE university, whereas Brits just go to hospital or university?[/quote]
Because the US only has one of each!
Because the US only has one of each!
- elmsandr
- Posts: 1373
- Joined: Mar 23, 2018
[quote="Mikebmiller"]OK, while we are on the subject of English, why do Americans go to THE hospital or THE university, whereas Brits just go to hospital or university?[/quote]
Have to post this:
[url]<LINK_TEXT text="https://www.cnn.com/2022/06/23/us/ohio- ... index.html">https://www.cnn.com/2022/06/23/us/ohio-state-university-trademarks-the/index.html</LINK_TEXT>
Though for comparison, we also go to college, not THE college; we also use college and university as synonyms here.
Cheers,
Andy
Have to post this:
Though for comparison, we also go to college, not THE college; we also use college and university as synonyms here.
Cheers,
Andy
- hyperbolica
- Posts: 3990
- Joined: Mar 23, 2018
Californians take The 5, while east coasters just get on 95. But just going to hospital sounds odd and pretentious.
- Posaunus
- Posts: 5018
- Joined: Mar 23, 2018
[quote="hyperbolica"]Californians take The 5, while east coasters just get on 95. But just going to hospital sounds odd and pretentious.[/quote]
You did go to school, didn't you, Matt? [Or was it "the school?" Which sounds pretentious to me!]
I'm now visiting in Vermont, and mentioned that we had driven on the "freeway." I was told that here its called the "Interstate!"
Vive les différences!
You did go to school, didn't you, Matt? [Or was it "the school?" Which sounds pretentious to me!]
I'm now visiting in Vermont, and mentioned that we had driven on the "freeway." I was told that here its called the "Interstate!"
Vive les différences!
- BGuttman
- Posts: 7368
- Joined: Mar 22, 2018
I thought "The" school referred to The Ohio State University; especially since they trademarked "The" in their name. I went to The Cooper Union because there is only one.
And why do we drive on parkways and park on driveways?
And why do we drive on parkways and park on driveways?
- hyperbolica
- Posts: 3990
- Joined: Mar 23, 2018
[quote="Posaunus"]
I'm now visiting in Vermont, and mentioned that we had driven on the "freeway." I was told that here its called the "Interstate!"
Vive les différences! [/quote]
Yes, the interstate. That just seems like a given, it never occurred to me that not everyone knows about the interstate. Don't get the freeway confused with the highway or God forbid the thruway, especially if you're across the border in upstate NY. Thruway charges tolls.
I'm now visiting in Vermont, and mentioned that we had driven on the "freeway." I was told that here its called the "Interstate!"
Vive les différences! [/quote]
Yes, the interstate. That just seems like a given, it never occurred to me that not everyone knows about the interstate. Don't get the freeway confused with the highway or God forbid the thruway, especially if you're across the border in upstate NY. Thruway charges tolls.
- Posaunus
- Posts: 5018
- Joined: Mar 23, 2018
Back home (in California) we have <B>many</B> freeways that are <B>not</B> Interstate highways.
- JohnL
- Posts: 2529
- Joined: Mar 23, 2018
[quote="hyperbolica"]Californians take The 5, while east coasters just get on 95. But just going to hospital sounds odd and pretentious[/quote]
I think the typical SoCal "the 5" or "the 101" results from them being a truncation of "the 5 freeway" or "the 101 freeway". I've noticed that many non-freeway routes are not normally preceded by "the". California State Route 1 is typically referred to as either "Highway 1" or by one of several legacy names (Coast Highway, Pacific Coast Highway, Cabrillo Highway, or Shoreline Highway). US Route 66 is always "Route 66".
I think the typical SoCal "the 5" or "the 101" results from them being a truncation of "the 5 freeway" or "the 101 freeway". I've noticed that many non-freeway routes are not normally preceded by "the". California State Route 1 is typically referred to as either "Highway 1" or by one of several legacy names (Coast Highway, Pacific Coast Highway, Cabrillo Highway, or Shoreline Highway). US Route 66 is always "Route 66".
- brassmedic
- Posts: 1447
- Joined: Dec 14, 2018
[quote="Mikebmiller"]OK, while we are on the subject of English, why do Americans go to THE hospital or THE university, whereas Brits just go to hospital or university?[/quote]
Because a singular noun is supposed to be paired with an article. I have no idea why the British and the Canadians leave it out. It sounds very strange to my ear. Consider my first sentence without articles: "Noun needs to have article." Sounds like pidgin English to me. Or what about: "I drove in car", "I ate cheeseburger", "Give me pencil". Those all sound wrong to me, because they are missing articles.
Because a singular noun is supposed to be paired with an article. I have no idea why the British and the Canadians leave it out. It sounds very strange to my ear. Consider my first sentence without articles: "Noun needs to have article." Sounds like pidgin English to me. Or what about: "I drove in car", "I ate cheeseburger", "Give me pencil". Those all sound wrong to me, because they are missing articles.
- brassmedic
- Posts: 1447
- Joined: Dec 14, 2018
[quote="hyperbolica"]Californians take The 5, while east coasters just get on 95. But just going to hospital sounds odd and pretentious.[/quote]
I read a great article about this awhile back. This came about because the freeways all have names, and Southern Californians used to refer to them by name, e.g. "The Hollywood Freeway", "The Santa Ana Freeway", etc. Then at some point we started using the numerical designations instead, but were so used to using "the" that it just continued that way.
I read a great article about this awhile back. This came about because the freeways all have names, and Southern Californians used to refer to them by name, e.g. "The Hollywood Freeway", "The Santa Ana Freeway", etc. Then at some point we started using the numerical designations instead, but were so used to using "the" that it just continued that way.
- sungfw
- Posts: 257
- Joined: Jul 17, 2018
[quote="pompatus"]<QUOTE author="ithinknot" post_id="183359" time="1657826925" user_id="9763">
No.
It's the sound (consonant vs vowel) that matters, not the actual letter. Usually the two coincide but, when they don't, sound is the determinant.
Thus the inverse case: 'an honest mistake' - consonant spelling but vowel sound[/quote]
Just to play “devil’s advocate” I’d bring up the word “history” which, grammatically accurately, we see preceded by “an”.
</QUOTE>
Only if the /h/ is not pronounced; when it's pronounced the correct article is "a," e.g., A history of the world," "a historical re-enactment," "A History of Western Philosphy" (Bertrand Russell, Simon & Schuster (US), George Allen & Unwin Ltd (UK), 1945).
[quote="Kbiggs"]Of course, we could always employ the consonant-vowel rule for indefinite articles, as mentioned above:
An euphonium. An eunuch.
An so on…[/quote]
Nope. The proper article is determined by the initial sound, not the class of the initial letter (or diphthong) per se, e.g., "a uniform" but "an upstart"; "a unicorn" but "an undergraduate[/b]; a user" but "an urbanite," etc. In the case of the word initial diphthong /eu/ the intial sound is consonantal, ,i.e., /yu/. Consequently, the grammatically correct forms are "a euphonium," "a eunuch," "a eulogy," "a European," etc..
With regard to the OP's question: as one whose primary instrument over the past 60-some years has been euphonium, the term I've always preferred is "a eupher."
No.
It's the sound (consonant vs vowel) that matters, not the actual letter. Usually the two coincide but, when they don't, sound is the determinant.
Thus the inverse case: 'an honest mistake' - consonant spelling but vowel sound[/quote]
Just to play “devil’s advocate” I’d bring up the word “history” which, grammatically accurately, we see preceded by “an”.
</QUOTE>
Only if the /h/ is not pronounced; when it's pronounced the correct article is "a," e.g., A history of the world," "a historical re-enactment," "A History of Western Philosphy" (Bertrand Russell, Simon & Schuster (US), George Allen & Unwin Ltd (UK), 1945).
[quote="Kbiggs"]Of course, we could always employ the consonant-vowel rule for indefinite articles, as mentioned above:
An euphonium. An eunuch.
An so on…[/quote]
Nope. The proper article is determined by the initial sound, not the class of the initial letter (or diphthong) per se, e.g., "a uniform" but "an upstart"; "a unicorn" but "an undergraduate[/b]; a user" but "an urbanite," etc. In the case of the word initial diphthong /eu/ the intial sound is consonantal, ,i.e., /yu/. Consequently, the grammatically correct forms are "a euphonium," "a eunuch," "a eulogy," "a European," etc..
With regard to the OP's question: as one whose primary instrument over the past 60-some years has been euphonium, the term I've always preferred is "a eupher."
- Posaunus
- Posts: 5018
- Joined: Mar 23, 2018
[quote="brassmedic"]<QUOTE author="Mikebmiller" post_id="183415" time="1657899224" user_id="213">
OK, while we are on the subject of English, why do Americans go to THE hospital or THE university, whereas Brits just go to hospital or university?[/quote]
Because a singular noun is supposed to be paired with an article. I have no idea why the British and the Canadians leave it out. It sounds very strange to my ear. Consider my first sentence without articles: "Noun needs to have article." Sounds like pidgin English to me. Or what about: "I drove in car", "I ate cheeseburger", "Give me pencil". Those all sound wrong to me, because they are missing articles.
</QUOTE>
Brad,
Did you go to (or attend) school - or <I><U>the</U></I> school - before you became a Brass Medic? :idk:
These things are sometimes just a (widely accepted) matter of custom (or "usage" as grammarians would phrase it).
OK, while we are on the subject of English, why do Americans go to THE hospital or THE university, whereas Brits just go to hospital or university?[/quote]
Because a singular noun is supposed to be paired with an article. I have no idea why the British and the Canadians leave it out. It sounds very strange to my ear. Consider my first sentence without articles: "Noun needs to have article." Sounds like pidgin English to me. Or what about: "I drove in car", "I ate cheeseburger", "Give me pencil". Those all sound wrong to me, because they are missing articles.
</QUOTE>
Brad,
Did you go to (or attend) school - or <I><U>the</U></I> school - before you became a Brass Medic? :idk:
These things are sometimes just a (widely accepted) matter of custom (or "usage" as grammarians would phrase it).
- Posaunus
- Posts: 5018
- Joined: Mar 23, 2018
[quote="brassmedic"]<QUOTE author="hyperbolica" post_id="183422" time="1657905696" user_id="104">
Californians take The 5, while east coasters just get on 95. But just going to hospital sounds odd and pretentious.[/quote]
I read a great article about this awhile back. This came about because the freeways all have names, and Southern Californians used to refer to them by name, e.g. "The Hollywood Freeway", "The Santa Ana Freeway", etc. Then at some point we started using the numerical designations instead, but were so used to using "the" that it just continued that way.
</QUOTE>
True enough, Brad and JohnL - this usage is mostly confined to Southern California. I grew up in Northern California, and never heard of a freeway / highway called "the" anything in the old days. As I recall, we just used the route numbers, with no articles or modifiers (perhaps other than the compass direction - e.g., 80 West, or 101 South). In any case, usage is often localized - and inevitably changes with time.
By the way, how did we get from Euphonia to roadways?
Californians take The 5, while east coasters just get on 95. But just going to hospital sounds odd and pretentious.[/quote]
I read a great article about this awhile back. This came about because the freeways all have names, and Southern Californians used to refer to them by name, e.g. "The Hollywood Freeway", "The Santa Ana Freeway", etc. Then at some point we started using the numerical designations instead, but were so used to using "the" that it just continued that way.
</QUOTE>
True enough, Brad and JohnL - this usage is mostly confined to Southern California. I grew up in Northern California, and never heard of a freeway / highway called "the" anything in the old days. As I recall, we just used the route numbers, with no articles or modifiers (perhaps other than the compass direction - e.g., 80 West, or 101 South). In any case, usage is often localized - and inevitably changes with time.
By the way, how did we get from Euphonia to roadways?
- brassmedic
- Posts: 1447
- Joined: Dec 14, 2018
[quote="Posaunus"]<QUOTE author="brassmedic" post_id="183448" time="1657915916" user_id="4102">
Because a singular noun is supposed to be paired with an article. I have no idea why the British and the Canadians leave it out. It sounds very strange to my ear. Consider my first sentence without articles: "Noun needs to have article." Sounds like pidgin English to me. Or what about: "I drove in car", "I ate cheeseburger", "Give me pencil". Those all sound wrong to me, because they are missing articles.[/quote]
Brad,
Did you go to (or attend) school - or <I><U>the</U></I> school - before you became a Brass Medic? :idk:
These things are sometimes just a (widely accepted) matter of custom (or "usage" as grammarians would phrase it).
</QUOTE>
Oh, yeah. Great point. And we do say "college" not "the college". I guess it is just a matter of convention. I would point out, though, that university is a more specific term. Not all colleges are universities, and not all schools are colleges.
I did a little reading on this, and I think we don't use an article when it's a generic word for an institution, or something intangible. We go to church, we go to court, we go to prison, and we go to college. And I think "university" is used in England the way we use "college" in the U.S., to mean the system of higher learning itself. That doesn't explain "hospital" though. A hospital is indeed tangible, which is why we say "a hospital" or "the hospital". If it's intangible we don't use an article, i.e. "I'm in surgery", or "I'm in treatment". Is "hospital" an intangible in England, like what we call "health care" in the U.S.?
Because a singular noun is supposed to be paired with an article. I have no idea why the British and the Canadians leave it out. It sounds very strange to my ear. Consider my first sentence without articles: "Noun needs to have article." Sounds like pidgin English to me. Or what about: "I drove in car", "I ate cheeseburger", "Give me pencil". Those all sound wrong to me, because they are missing articles.[/quote]
Brad,
Did you go to (or attend) school - or <I><U>the</U></I> school - before you became a Brass Medic? :idk:
These things are sometimes just a (widely accepted) matter of custom (or "usage" as grammarians would phrase it).
</QUOTE>
Oh, yeah. Great point. And we do say "college" not "the college". I guess it is just a matter of convention. I would point out, though, that university is a more specific term. Not all colleges are universities, and not all schools are colleges.
I did a little reading on this, and I think we don't use an article when it's a generic word for an institution, or something intangible. We go to church, we go to court, we go to prison, and we go to college. And I think "university" is used in England the way we use "college" in the U.S., to mean the system of higher learning itself. That doesn't explain "hospital" though. A hospital is indeed tangible, which is why we say "a hospital" or "the hospital". If it's intangible we don't use an article, i.e. "I'm in surgery", or "I'm in treatment". Is "hospital" an intangible in England, like what we call "health care" in the U.S.?
- imsevimse
- Posts: 1765
- Joined: Apr 29, 2018
This was an interesting thread or better this was A very interesting thread. Thanks.
/Tom
/Tom
- JohnL
- Posts: 2529
- Joined: Mar 23, 2018
[quote="Posaunus"]By the way, how did we get from Euphonia to roadways?[/quote]
I'd rather talk roadways than euphoniums any day...
I'd rather talk roadways than euphoniums any day...
- greenbean
- Posts: 1958
- Joined: Mar 23, 2018
[quote="JohnL"]I'd rather talk roadways than euphoniums any day...[/quote]
Well, we haven't discussed "turnpikes" yet!
Well, we haven't discussed "turnpikes" yet!
- brumpone
- Posts: 54
- Joined: May 09, 2019
[quote="brassmedic"]Is "hospital" an intangible in England, like what we call "health care" in the U.S.?[/quote]
Pretty much. If I need urgent care I may very well go to hospital. I don’t care which one, there are several nearby. Maybe I’ll go to hospital and be hospitalised. Then if a friend visits me, they’ll come to the hospital (where I’m staying), and when I get home I’ll be asked, ‘what did the hospital (where I was treated) say?’
Pretty much. If I need urgent care I may very well go to hospital. I don’t care which one, there are several nearby. Maybe I’ll go to hospital and be hospitalised. Then if a friend visits me, they’ll come to the hospital (where I’m staying), and when I get home I’ll be asked, ‘what did the hospital (where I was treated) say?’
- harrisonreed
- Posts: 6479
- Joined: Aug 17, 2018
Some euphonists prefer to be called "an euphonist"