Conn Coprion Bell
- ChrisF
- Posts: 15
- Joined: Jul 18, 2022
Hi all. I'd like to buy a Conn Coprion Bell and I need some advice.
I got 3 options, but I don't know which one will be better or more professional.
1. 1942 -12H,
2. 1966 18H,
3. Director Shooting Stars, I believe is the newest, though all of them have scratches, etc
The thing is I couldn't find anything on google about the story of these Conn's trombones with the Coprion bell. Im wondering which one is the best option and professional model to buy?
Those that say Director on the slide, aren't they student models? Big thanks
Note: As we all know the 18H and the shooting have on the bell a few stars, the 3 band musicians marching and its counterweight says, Conn. The 12H is different, its copper bell looks darker, its graving says Conn LTD ( what do LTD stand for? ) and its counterweight has the three guys band marching, like the 6H played by JJ and many others.
I got 3 options, but I don't know which one will be better or more professional.
1. 1942 -12H,
2. 1966 18H,
3. Director Shooting Stars, I believe is the newest, though all of them have scratches, etc
The thing is I couldn't find anything on google about the story of these Conn's trombones with the Coprion bell. Im wondering which one is the best option and professional model to buy?
Those that say Director on the slide, aren't they student models? Big thanks
Note: As we all know the 18H and the shooting have on the bell a few stars, the 3 band musicians marching and its counterweight says, Conn. The 12H is different, its copper bell looks darker, its graving says Conn LTD ( what do LTD stand for? ) and its counterweight has the three guys band marching, like the 6H played by JJ and many others.
- Matt_K
- Posts: 4809
- Joined: Mar 21, 2018
Just a heads up, you need three approved posts before people can PM you or see your email. I’m on my phone so I didn’t get a peek at how many you have.
I’m also selling my Conn corprion and if it isn’t listed yet I can give you details if you are interested. It sounds like it might be in better shape than those others. You can reply again and I can approve your post too if you are interested.
I’m also selling my Conn corprion and if it isn’t listed yet I can give you details if you are interested. It sounds like it might be in better shape than those others. You can reply again and I can approve your post too if you are interested.
- elmsandr
- Posts: 1373
- Joined: Mar 23, 2018
[quote="ChrisF"]Hi all. I'd like to buy a Conn Coprion Bell and I need some advice.
I got 3 options, but I don't know which one will be better or more professional.
1. 1942 -12H,
2. 1966 18H,
3. Director Shooting Stars, I believe is the newest, though all of them have scratches, etc
The thing is I couldn't find anything on google about the story of these Conn's trombones with the Coprion bell. Im wondering which one is the best option and professional model to buy?
Those that say Director on the slide, aren't they student models? Big thanks
Note: As we all know the 18H and the shooting have on the bell a few stars, the 3 band musicians marching and its counterweight says, Conn. The 12H is different, its copper bell looks darker, its graving says Conn LTD ( what do LTD stand for? ) and its counterweight has the three guys band marching, like the 6H played by JJ and many others.[/quote]
Only that 12H is a professional horn. After they somewhat 'failed' as pro-level horns, Conn used the process to make the director 18H... Those two are the same design level.
As for the 12H; I can never remember between the 10H and 12H, one is a 4H with Coprion flare, the other is a 6H. Neither are particularly rare, they aren't exactly common, as there were not tons made, but they aren't generally sought after.
They are fun to play around with, not sure I would ever do more that fiddle with one, however.
Cheers,
Andy
I got 3 options, but I don't know which one will be better or more professional.
1. 1942 -12H,
2. 1966 18H,
3. Director Shooting Stars, I believe is the newest, though all of them have scratches, etc
The thing is I couldn't find anything on google about the story of these Conn's trombones with the Coprion bell. Im wondering which one is the best option and professional model to buy?
Those that say Director on the slide, aren't they student models? Big thanks
Note: As we all know the 18H and the shooting have on the bell a few stars, the 3 band musicians marching and its counterweight says, Conn. The 12H is different, its copper bell looks darker, its graving says Conn LTD ( what do LTD stand for? ) and its counterweight has the three guys band marching, like the 6H played by JJ and many others.[/quote]
Only that 12H is a professional horn. After they somewhat 'failed' as pro-level horns, Conn used the process to make the director 18H... Those two are the same design level.
As for the 12H; I can never remember between the 10H and 12H, one is a 4H with Coprion flare, the other is a 6H. Neither are particularly rare, they aren't exactly common, as there were not tons made, but they aren't generally sought after.
They are fun to play around with, not sure I would ever do more that fiddle with one, however.
Cheers,
Andy
- mcphatty00
- Posts: 120
- Joined: Apr 25, 2022
I have the passive goal to find a 10H and take to bell to make my 6H modular.
- BGuttman
- Posts: 7368
- Joined: Mar 22, 2018
Coprion was an experiment Conn made to try to make horns by a process called Electroforming. In Electroforming, you place a mandrel in a plating bath and build up the bell using electric current. This is different from most instruments that are made from sheet metal. Coprion is actually pure copper and its name was derived from "Copper Ion". I guess it was too hard to figure out how to plate pure brass for the experiments.
The 10H was a 6H with Coprion bell (0.500" bore)
The 12H was a 4H with Coprion bell (0.485" bore)
There was also a 70 series with a Coprion bell; either 76H or 77H (it's a tenor, and not a bass).
Coprion has a reputation of being very warm sounding at pp but very bright at fff. This variation caused it to be rejected by many pros who wanted a more uniform sound across the volume range.
The 10H was a 6H with Coprion bell (0.500" bore)
The 12H was a 4H with Coprion bell (0.485" bore)
There was also a 70 series with a Coprion bell; either 76H or 77H (it's a tenor, and not a bass).
Coprion has a reputation of being very warm sounding at pp but very bright at fff. This variation caused it to be rejected by many pros who wanted a more uniform sound across the volume range.
- hyperbolica
- Posts: 3990
- Joined: Mar 23, 2018
Yeah, the 10h is probably the rarest of the coprion group, it was the 0.500" bore version. I owned one for a while, and it was nice enough, but most people I think would prefer a 6h, or even a 48h, which had the nickel plated yellow brass bell and some fancy fittings, but was spec-wise similar to the 6h. 10h was fun to play for solos on ballads, but it was hard to play in a section. Coprion is really the extreme of red bell materials. You can find some other brands that have offered pure copper bells (Kanstul had one, maybe Rath, Reynolds and probably some others), but the Conns were the most successful.
12h was the 4h (0.485") equivalent with coprion, much more abundant than the 10h, and 18h was the student horn, more abundant still.
Generally, the coprion bells played very dark at lower volume, but could get crazy bright when you pushed them hard. Yellow brass starts out brighter, but doesn't get as crazy. The real draw I think is just the look. There are those who claim to like the sound, and claim that you can't crack a note, or it doesn't break up at volume. If you don't push them too hard, they don't get obnoxious. There seem to be opposing claims when it came to coprion at high volume. When I had my 10h, I kept it at low levels. It seemed to me to play best with a sound like you were in a smoky jazz bar playing really laid back ballads.
12h was the 4h (0.485") equivalent with coprion, much more abundant than the 10h, and 18h was the student horn, more abundant still.
Generally, the coprion bells played very dark at lower volume, but could get crazy bright when you pushed them hard. Yellow brass starts out brighter, but doesn't get as crazy. The real draw I think is just the look. There are those who claim to like the sound, and claim that you can't crack a note, or it doesn't break up at volume. If you don't push them too hard, they don't get obnoxious. There seem to be opposing claims when it came to coprion at high volume. When I had my 10h, I kept it at low levels. It seemed to me to play best with a sound like you were in a smoky jazz bar playing really laid back ballads.
- ChrisF
- Posts: 15
- Joined: Jul 18, 2022
[quote="Matt K"]Just a heads up, you need three approved posts before people can PM you or see your email. I’m on my phone so I didn’t get a peek at how many you have.
I’m also selling my Conn corprion and if it isn’t listed yet I can give you details if you are interested. It sounds like it might be in better shape than those others. You can reply again and I can approve your post too if you are interested.[/quote]
What model of Conn do you have? Send me pictures please. Thanks
I’m also selling my Conn corprion and if it isn’t listed yet I can give you details if you are interested. It sounds like it might be in better shape than those others. You can reply again and I can approve your post too if you are interested.[/quote]
What model of Conn do you have? Send me pictures please. Thanks
- ChrisF
- Posts: 15
- Joined: Jul 18, 2022
[quote="BGuttman"]Coprion was an experiment Conn made to try to make horns by a process called Electroforming. In Electroforming, you place a mandrel in a plating bath and build up the bell using electric current. This is different from most instruments that are made from sheet metal. Coprion is actually pure copper and its name was derived from "Copper Ion". I guess it was too hard to figure out how to plate pure brass for the experiments.
The 10H was a 6H with Coprion bell (0.500" bore)
The 12H was a 4H with Coprion bell (0.485" bore)
There was also a 70 series with a Coprion bell; either 76H or 77H (it's a tenor, and not a bass).
Coprion has a reputation of being very warm sounding at pp but very bright at fff. This variation caused it to be rejected by many pros who wanted a more uniform sound across the volume range.[/quote]
Thanks for your response. I always read your comments.
So, of all my 3 options above, would you say to go with the 12H or the 18H?
2. The word Director on the slide, is for student models?
3. My other question was LTD what does it mean? thanks
The 10H was a 6H with Coprion bell (0.500" bore)
The 12H was a 4H with Coprion bell (0.485" bore)
There was also a 70 series with a Coprion bell; either 76H or 77H (it's a tenor, and not a bass).
Coprion has a reputation of being very warm sounding at pp but very bright at fff. This variation caused it to be rejected by many pros who wanted a more uniform sound across the volume range.[/quote]
Thanks for your response. I always read your comments.
So, of all my 3 options above, would you say to go with the 12H or the 18H?
2. The word Director on the slide, is for student models?
3. My other question was LTD what does it mean? thanks
- BGuttman
- Posts: 7368
- Joined: Mar 22, 2018
Director was the student model. The 18H, one 20H, one 22H, and one 27H all were Directors. Conn reused numbers so there are non-Directors with some of these numbers. The first Director was right around the end of World War II to take advantage of the booming student market and has remained the Student model to this day.
LTD was because Conn called themselves Conn Ltd. like an English company. Ltd stands for Limited Liability, but only in the UK. In America the term is Incorporated (Inc.).
Note that the 12H is a professional grade instrument comparable to a King 2B or Conn 4H (i.e. small bore and most suitable to lead in Big Band or small combo). 18H came in two "flavors" -- one was 0.485" bore, and later ones were 0.500" bore. They are not bad instruments, but there were better models sold at the same time.
If you are looking for a more general purpose horn, I'd suggest you look elsewhere. Unfortunately, most of them will not be Coprion.
LTD was because Conn called themselves Conn Ltd. like an English company. Ltd stands for Limited Liability, but only in the UK. In America the term is Incorporated (Inc.).
Note that the 12H is a professional grade instrument comparable to a King 2B or Conn 4H (i.e. small bore and most suitable to lead in Big Band or small combo). 18H came in two "flavors" -- one was 0.485" bore, and later ones were 0.500" bore. They are not bad instruments, but there were better models sold at the same time.
If you are looking for a more general purpose horn, I'd suggest you look elsewhere. Unfortunately, most of them will not be Coprion.
- ChrisF
- Posts: 15
- Joined: Jul 18, 2022
[quote="elmsandr"]<QUOTE author="ChrisF" post_id="183650" time="1658126521" user_id="15485">
Hi all. I'd like to buy a Conn Coprion Bell and I need some advice.
I got 3 options, but I don't know which one will be better or more professional.
1. 1942 -12H,
2. 1966 18H,
3. Director Shooting Stars, I believe is the newest, though all of them have scratches, etc
The thing is I couldn't find anything on google about the story of these Conn's trombones with the Coprion bell. Im wondering which one is the best option and professional model to buy?
Those that say Director on the slide, aren't they student models? Big thanks
Note: As we all know the 18H and the shooting have on the bell a few stars, the 3 band musicians marching and its counterweight says, Conn. The 12H is different, its copper bell looks darker, its graving says Conn LTD ( what do LTD stand for? ) and its counterweight has the three guys band marching, like the 6H played by JJ and many others.[/quote]
Only that 12H is a professional horn. After they somewhat 'failed' as pro-level horns, Conn used the process to make the director 18H... Those two are the same design level.
As for the 12H; I can never remember between the 10H and 12H, one is a 4H with Coprion flare, the other is a 6H. Neither are particularly rare, they aren't exactly common, as there were not tons made, but they aren't generally sought after.
They are fun to play around with, not sure I would ever do more that fiddle with one, however.
Cheers,
Andy
</QUOTE>
Thanks Andy for your response. I believe right now the best option I have is the 12H, though the 18H from 1966 is also a vintage right? btw it doesn't say Director on the leadpipe receiver like the Shooting stars.
Hi all. I'd like to buy a Conn Coprion Bell and I need some advice.
I got 3 options, but I don't know which one will be better or more professional.
1. 1942 -12H,
2. 1966 18H,
3. Director Shooting Stars, I believe is the newest, though all of them have scratches, etc
The thing is I couldn't find anything on google about the story of these Conn's trombones with the Coprion bell. Im wondering which one is the best option and professional model to buy?
Those that say Director on the slide, aren't they student models? Big thanks
Note: As we all know the 18H and the shooting have on the bell a few stars, the 3 band musicians marching and its counterweight says, Conn. The 12H is different, its copper bell looks darker, its graving says Conn LTD ( what do LTD stand for? ) and its counterweight has the three guys band marching, like the 6H played by JJ and many others.[/quote]
Only that 12H is a professional horn. After they somewhat 'failed' as pro-level horns, Conn used the process to make the director 18H... Those two are the same design level.
As for the 12H; I can never remember between the 10H and 12H, one is a 4H with Coprion flare, the other is a 6H. Neither are particularly rare, they aren't exactly common, as there were not tons made, but they aren't generally sought after.
They are fun to play around with, not sure I would ever do more that fiddle with one, however.
Cheers,
Andy
</QUOTE>
Thanks Andy for your response. I believe right now the best option I have is the 12H, though the 18H from 1966 is also a vintage right? btw it doesn't say Director on the leadpipe receiver like the Shooting stars.
- ChrisF
- Posts: 15
- Joined: Jul 18, 2022
[quote="BGuttman"]Director was the student model. The 18H, one 20H, one 22H, and one 27H all were Directors. Conn reused numbers so there are non-Directors with some of these numbers. The first Director was right around the end of World War II to take advantage of the booming student market and has remained the Student model to this day.
LTD was because Conn called themselves Conn Ltd. like an English company. Ltd stands for Limited Liability, but only in the UK. In America the term is Incorporated (Inc.).
Note that the 12H is a professional grade instrument comparable to a King 2B or Conn 4H (i.e. small bore and most suitable to lead in Big Band or small combo). 18H came in two "flavors" -- one was 0.485" bore, and later ones were 0.500" bore. They are not bad instruments, but there were better models sold at the same time.
If you are looking for a more general purpose horn, I'd suggest you look elsewhere. Unfortunately, most of them will not be Coprion.[/quote]
Thanks BGuttman for your response. well, the thing is, I'm looking for a Coprion bell for personal /artistic reasons. of course, I would like the instrument to have some quality as well. Conn is the most brand I have seen available out there, and also the most affordable. I own a king silver sonic 3b. an Olds recording, both beautiful horns.
LTD was because Conn called themselves Conn Ltd. like an English company. Ltd stands for Limited Liability, but only in the UK. In America the term is Incorporated (Inc.).
Note that the 12H is a professional grade instrument comparable to a King 2B or Conn 4H (i.e. small bore and most suitable to lead in Big Band or small combo). 18H came in two "flavors" -- one was 0.485" bore, and later ones were 0.500" bore. They are not bad instruments, but there were better models sold at the same time.
If you are looking for a more general purpose horn, I'd suggest you look elsewhere. Unfortunately, most of them will not be Coprion.[/quote]
Thanks BGuttman for your response. well, the thing is, I'm looking for a Coprion bell for personal /artistic reasons. of course, I would like the instrument to have some quality as well. Conn is the most brand I have seen available out there, and also the most affordable. I own a king silver sonic 3b. an Olds recording, both beautiful horns.
- elmsandr
- Posts: 1373
- Joined: Mar 23, 2018
[quote="ChrisF"]<QUOTE author="elmsandr" post_id="183660" time="1658145130" user_id="147">
Only that 12H is a professional horn. After they somewhat 'failed' as pro-level horns, Conn used the process to make the director 18H... Those two are the same design level.
As for the 12H; I can never remember between the 10H and 12H, one is a 4H with Coprion flare, the other is a 6H. Neither are particularly rare, they aren't exactly common, as there were not tons made, but they aren't generally sought after.
They are fun to play around with, not sure I would ever do more that fiddle with one, however.
Cheers,
Andy[/quote]
Thanks Andy for your response. I believe right now the best option I have is the 12H, though the 18H from 1966 is also a vintage right? btw it doesn't say Director on the leadpipe receiver like the Shooting stars.
</QUOTE>
18H + Coprion bell = Director whether it says so or not. If you are unclear, take a look at Conn loyalist; the 10H and 12H have a lot more nickel trim, "reversed" tuning slides, nickel oversleeves, Nickel bottom slide bow, etc...
The directors aren't terrible, but they aren't the 10/12H.
Using the director bell on a 6H slide... that might be interesting, but I wouldn't spend much money on that.
Cheers,
Andy
Only that 12H is a professional horn. After they somewhat 'failed' as pro-level horns, Conn used the process to make the director 18H... Those two are the same design level.
As for the 12H; I can never remember between the 10H and 12H, one is a 4H with Coprion flare, the other is a 6H. Neither are particularly rare, they aren't exactly common, as there were not tons made, but they aren't generally sought after.
They are fun to play around with, not sure I would ever do more that fiddle with one, however.
Cheers,
Andy[/quote]
Thanks Andy for your response. I believe right now the best option I have is the 12H, though the 18H from 1966 is also a vintage right? btw it doesn't say Director on the leadpipe receiver like the Shooting stars.
</QUOTE>
18H + Coprion bell = Director whether it says so or not. If you are unclear, take a look at Conn loyalist; the 10H and 12H have a lot more nickel trim, "reversed" tuning slides, nickel oversleeves, Nickel bottom slide bow, etc...
The directors aren't terrible, but they aren't the 10/12H.
Using the director bell on a 6H slide... that might be interesting, but I wouldn't spend much money on that.
Cheers,
Andy
- ChrisF
- Posts: 15
- Joined: Jul 18, 2022
[quote="elmsandr"]<QUOTE author="ChrisF" post_id="183712" time="1658171490" user_id="15485">
Thanks Andy for your response. I believe right now the best option I have is the 12H, though the 18H from 1966 is also a vintage right? btw it doesn't say Director on the leadpipe receiver like the Shooting stars.[/quote]
18H + Coprion bell = Director whether it says so or not. If you are unclear, take a look at Conn loyalist; the 10H and 12H have a lot more nickel trim, "reversed" tuning slides, nickel oversleeves, Nickel bottom slide bow, etc...
The directors aren't terrible, but they aren't the 10/12H.
Using the director bell on a 6H slide... might be interesting, but I wouldn't spend much money on that.
Cheers,
Andy
</QUOTE>
thanks
Thanks Andy for your response. I believe right now the best option I have is the 12H, though the 18H from 1966 is also a vintage right? btw it doesn't say Director on the leadpipe receiver like the Shooting stars.[/quote]
18H + Coprion bell = Director whether it says so or not. If you are unclear, take a look at Conn loyalist; the 10H and 12H have a lot more nickel trim, "reversed" tuning slides, nickel oversleeves, Nickel bottom slide bow, etc...
The directors aren't terrible, but they aren't the 10/12H.
Using the director bell on a 6H slide... might be interesting, but I wouldn't spend much money on that.
Cheers,
Andy
</QUOTE>
thanks
- ChrisF
- Posts: 15
- Joined: Jul 18, 2022
Guys thank you so much for all your replies.
For the 12H Im thinking of buying all serial numbers math but its patina is worn out.
Is it possible to refurbish it to make it looks new without losing its dark color?
if so, Would anybody recommend to me who does it?
Thanks
For the 12H Im thinking of buying all serial numbers math but its patina is worn out.
Is it possible to refurbish it to make it looks new without losing its dark color?
if so, Would anybody recommend to me who does it?
Thanks
- Matt_K
- Posts: 4809
- Joined: Mar 21, 2018
[quote="ChrisF"]Guys thank you so much for all your replies.
For the 12H Im thinking of buying all serial numbers math but its patina is worn out.
Is it possible to refurbish it to make it looks new without losing its dark color?
if so, Would anybody recommend to me who does it?
Thanks[/quote]
First, here's a listing to the ad that I forgot to make last week:
<LINK_TEXT text="https://trombonechat.com/viewtopic.php? ... 46#p183746">https://trombonechat.com/viewtopic.php?f=22&t=27470&p=183746#p183746</LINK_TEXT>
Looks like it's a 18H. I'm not sure the bore size. To me it doesn't play like some of the brighter Conn Corprions I've played but who knows. It could be the .485 model.
With regards to your question, the patina doesn't take long to develop but a really nice patina that's cured for awhile takes, well, awhile to get back. Especially if you're not in a humid environment. So if you refurbish the bell, it'll be shiny and get dimmer over time (or what you typically call "new"!). There are some things you can do to artificially make unlacquered brass patina faster, though I've never personally done it and I'm not familiar with any tech who offers the service (though I'd be curious if this is more common than I'm aware).
If you're interested in my 18 over the 12, I'd be happy to give it a satin finish which will clean up the bell, leave it unlacquered, and show you what it'll look similar to after a few months. I did that to a King 606 bell in March and it's patina is pretty nice looking now, but I live in a pretty humid climate.
For the 12H Im thinking of buying all serial numbers math but its patina is worn out.
Is it possible to refurbish it to make it looks new without losing its dark color?
if so, Would anybody recommend to me who does it?
Thanks[/quote]
First, here's a listing to the ad that I forgot to make last week:
<LINK_TEXT text="https://trombonechat.com/viewtopic.php? ... 46#p183746">https://trombonechat.com/viewtopic.php?f=22&t=27470&p=183746#p183746</LINK_TEXT>
Looks like it's a 18H. I'm not sure the bore size. To me it doesn't play like some of the brighter Conn Corprions I've played but who knows. It could be the .485 model.
With regards to your question, the patina doesn't take long to develop but a really nice patina that's cured for awhile takes, well, awhile to get back. Especially if you're not in a humid environment. So if you refurbish the bell, it'll be shiny and get dimmer over time (or what you typically call "new"!). There are some things you can do to artificially make unlacquered brass patina faster, though I've never personally done it and I'm not familiar with any tech who offers the service (though I'd be curious if this is more common than I'm aware).
If you're interested in my 18 over the 12, I'd be happy to give it a satin finish which will clean up the bell, leave it unlacquered, and show you what it'll look similar to after a few months. I did that to a King 606 bell in March and it's patina is pretty nice looking now, but I live in a pretty humid climate.
- ChrisF
- Posts: 15
- Joined: Jul 18, 2022
[quote="Matt K"]Just a heads up, you need three approved posts before people can PM you or see your email. I’m on my phone so I didn’t get a peek at how many you have.
I’m also selling my Conn corprion and if it isn’t listed yet I can give you details if you are interested. It sounds like it might be in better shape than those others. You can reply again and I can approve your post too if you are interested.[/quote]
which one do you have? Please send me the details about it. model, etc? thanks
I’m also selling my Conn corprion and if it isn’t listed yet I can give you details if you are interested. It sounds like it might be in better shape than those others. You can reply again and I can approve your post too if you are interested.[/quote]
which one do you have? Please send me the details about it. model, etc? thanks
- stewbones43
- Posts: 333
- Joined: Oct 25, 2018
Just a thought; are you aware of the Coprion bells on some Blessing trombones?
I used to have a Blessing Artist model with a Coprion bell-0.500in bore and 8in bell. It played nicely but I didn't need it and it had to go.
Cheers
Stewbones43
I used to have a Blessing Artist model with a Coprion bell-0.500in bore and 8in bell. It played nicely but I didn't need it and it had to go.
Cheers
Stewbones43
- ChrisF
- Posts: 15
- Joined: Jul 18, 2022
[quote="stewbones43"]Just a thought; are you aware of the Coprion bells on some Blessing trombones?
I used to have a Blessing Artist model with a Coprion bell-0.500in bore and 8in a bell. It played nicely but I didn't need it and it had to go.
Cheers
Stewbones43[/quote]
Okay, I will check that out. thanks
I used to have a Blessing Artist model with a Coprion bell-0.500in bore and 8in a bell. It played nicely but I didn't need it and it had to go.
Cheers
Stewbones43[/quote]
Okay, I will check that out. thanks
- Crazy4Tbone86
- Posts: 1654
- Joined: Jan 14, 2020
[quote="ChrisF"]<QUOTE author="stewbones43" post_id="183815" time="1658264118" user_id="3880">
Just a thought; are you aware of the Coprion bells on some Blessing trombones?
I used to have a Blessing Artist model with a Coprion bell-0.500in bore and 8in a bell. It played nicely but I didn't need it and it had to go.
Cheers
Stewbones43[/quote]
Okay, I will check that out. thanks
</QUOTE>
Were any of the Blessing bells actually "Coprion?" Were they actually produced by electroplating copper on a mandrel?
I thought the Blessing bells were sheet copper spun on a mandrel. Maybe I am wrong.....Conn and Blessing did share a lot of parts. I just thought that the electroforming process was something unique to Conn.
Just a thought; are you aware of the Coprion bells on some Blessing trombones?
I used to have a Blessing Artist model with a Coprion bell-0.500in bore and 8in a bell. It played nicely but I didn't need it and it had to go.
Cheers
Stewbones43[/quote]
Okay, I will check that out. thanks
</QUOTE>
Were any of the Blessing bells actually "Coprion?" Were they actually produced by electroplating copper on a mandrel?
I thought the Blessing bells were sheet copper spun on a mandrel. Maybe I am wrong.....Conn and Blessing did share a lot of parts. I just thought that the electroforming process was something unique to Conn.
- elmsandr
- Posts: 1373
- Joined: Mar 23, 2018
[quote="Crazy4Tbone86"]<QUOTE author="ChrisF" post_id="185218" time="1659582539" user_id="15485">
Okay, I will check that out. thanks[/quote]
Were any of the Blessing bells actually "Coprion?" Were they actually produced by electroplating copper on a mandrel?
I thought the Blessing bells were sheet copper spun on a mandrel. Maybe I am wrong.....Conn and Blessing did share a lot of parts. I just thought that the electroforming process was something unique to Conn.
</QUOTE>
Some Blessing bells were in fact electroplated. Many more (my estimate) were spun, I'm not sure if they were copper or red brass. I'm not sure who would have the best knowledge of when changes were made there, the folks that I know that knew the Blessing operations are now gone.
Cheers,
Andy
Okay, I will check that out. thanks[/quote]
Were any of the Blessing bells actually "Coprion?" Were they actually produced by electroplating copper on a mandrel?
I thought the Blessing bells were sheet copper spun on a mandrel. Maybe I am wrong.....Conn and Blessing did share a lot of parts. I just thought that the electroforming process was something unique to Conn.
</QUOTE>
Some Blessing bells were in fact electroplated. Many more (my estimate) were spun, I'm not sure if they were copper or red brass. I'm not sure who would have the best knowledge of when changes were made there, the folks that I know that knew the Blessing operations are now gone.
Cheers,
Andy
- Crazy4Tbone86
- Posts: 1654
- Joined: Jan 14, 2020
"Some Blessing bells were in fact electroplated. Many more (my estimate) were spun, I'm not sure if they were copper or red brass. I'm not sure who would have the best knowledge of when changes were made there, the folks that I know that knew the Blessing operations are now gone.
Cheers,
Andy"
Thanks Andy.....I did not know that. It doesn't surprise me though. After all, Blessing made so many models based on Conns in the second half of the 20th century.
[quote="Posaunus"]Wasn't the name Coprion trademarked by Conn?[/quote]
Yes, I think it was one of their many trademarked marketing terms. Blessing probably just called theirs "Seamless Copper Bells" or something like that. I cannot come up with any catchy terms that combine Blessing, Electroplated and Copper. How about "ElectroBlessed" or "BlessPlaCoppered?"
Cheers,
Andy"
Thanks Andy.....I did not know that. It doesn't surprise me though. After all, Blessing made so many models based on Conns in the second half of the 20th century.
[quote="Posaunus"]Wasn't the name Coprion trademarked by Conn?[/quote]
Yes, I think it was one of their many trademarked marketing terms. Blessing probably just called theirs "Seamless Copper Bells" or something like that. I cannot come up with any catchy terms that combine Blessing, Electroplated and Copper. How about "ElectroBlessed" or "BlessPlaCoppered?"
- elmsandr
- Posts: 1373
- Joined: Mar 23, 2018
[quote="Crazy4Tbone86"]<QUOTE author="Posaunus" post_id="185355" time="1659730823" user_id="158">
Wasn't the name Coprion trademarked by Conn?[/quote]
Yes, I think it was one of their many trademarked marketing terms. Blessing probably just called theirs "Seamless Copper Bells" or something like that. I cannot come up with any catchy terms that combine Blessing, Electroplated and Copper. How about "ElectroBlessed" or "BlessPlaCoppered?"
</QUOTE>
Lol... Blessing, as a general operation, was far too cheap to anything that would represent "branding". Pretty barebones operation, even when I visited them in the '90s. They had a handful of full-time employees, but quite a bit of their labor were folks employed elsewhere in town picking up a few extra hours....
Cheers,
Andy
Wasn't the name Coprion trademarked by Conn?[/quote]
Yes, I think it was one of their many trademarked marketing terms. Blessing probably just called theirs "Seamless Copper Bells" or something like that. I cannot come up with any catchy terms that combine Blessing, Electroplated and Copper. How about "ElectroBlessed" or "BlessPlaCoppered?"
</QUOTE>
Lol... Blessing, as a general operation, was far too cheap to anything that would represent "branding". Pretty barebones operation, even when I visited them in the '90s. They had a handful of full-time employees, but quite a bit of their labor were folks employed elsewhere in town picking up a few extra hours....
Cheers,
Andy
- KathleenDuRant
- Posts: 7
- Joined: Jan 14, 2024
How can you tell if a trombone has a coprion bell?
Thanks!
Thanks!
- BGuttman
- Posts: 7368
- Joined: Mar 22, 2018
[quote="KathleenDuRant"]How can you tell if a trombone has a coprion bell?
Thanks![/quote]
Coprion was Conn's name for a pure copper bell. Coprion was electroformed, i.e. created from a plating bath. The plating mandrels limited Coprion to small bore instruments: trumpets, cornets, and small bore trombones. As long as the instrument isn't silver plated, the color will give it away.
Conn gave the Coprion instruments their own model numbers, so you have the 6H in brass and the 10H in Coprion (for example).
Thanks![/quote]
Coprion was Conn's name for a pure copper bell. Coprion was electroformed, i.e. created from a plating bath. The plating mandrels limited Coprion to small bore instruments: trumpets, cornets, and small bore trombones. As long as the instrument isn't silver plated, the color will give it away.
Conn gave the Coprion instruments their own model numbers, so you have the 6H in brass and the 10H in Coprion (for example).
- KathleenDuRant
- Posts: 7
- Joined: Jan 14, 2024
I have the 1958 48H Conn Constellation with a nickel bell.
[url]https://cderksen.home.xs4all.nl/ConnArticle20.html
This post says 'probably the 48H through 9xx,xxx.'
Mine is 754106
48H LW
If the bell is silver could you tell by the weight?
Thanks!
This post says 'probably the 48H through 9xx,xxx.'
Mine is 754106
48H LW
If the bell is silver could you tell by the weight?
Thanks!
- BGuttman
- Posts: 7368
- Joined: Mar 22, 2018
[quote="KathleenDuRant"]I have the 1958 48H Conn Constellation with a nickel bell.
[url]https://cderksen.home.xs4all.nl/ConnArticle20.html
This post says 'probably the 48H through 9xx,xxx.'
Mine is 754106
48H LW
If the bell is silver could you tell by the weight?
Thanks![/quote]
I don't know of any solid silver belled 48H. Most of them had nickel silver bell flares (nickel silver is a copper alloy and has no silver in it).
Bells made from Sterling Silver (92% silver) will have a sterling mark (looks like an L with a line through it). King prided themselves on the sterling bells; Conn never did. There are a couple of custom made Conn silver trombones but pre 2000 they are VERY rare.
This post says 'probably the 48H through 9xx,xxx.'
Mine is 754106
48H LW
If the bell is silver could you tell by the weight?
Thanks![/quote]
I don't know of any solid silver belled 48H. Most of them had nickel silver bell flares (nickel silver is a copper alloy and has no silver in it).
Bells made from Sterling Silver (92% silver) will have a sterling mark (looks like an L with a line through it). King prided themselves on the sterling bells; Conn never did. There are a couple of custom made Conn silver trombones but pre 2000 they are VERY rare.
- KathleenDuRant
- Posts: 7
- Joined: Jan 14, 2024
When I say the bell is silver, I mean it is silver in color. It is nickel plated, as you said.
I would like to sell this horn and I appreciate all of the information. I have learned a great deal about it from this chat. I have only received messages from scammers on Reverb so far so I am wary of online sales.
Thanks!
I would like to sell this horn and I appreciate all of the information. I have learned a great deal about it from this chat. I have only received messages from scammers on Reverb so far so I am wary of online sales.
Thanks!
- Mamaposaune
- Posts: 657
- Joined: Sep 22, 2018
Here are some pictures from a 1955 Conn catalog, it may be helpful, or at least interesting. (especially the prices!)
There was no 10H listed, that model must have come later. The 18H was the coprion-belled director.
I think there is also a description of the coprion process, but Bruce already did a good job of that.
They did not list bore sizes back then for some reason.
There was no 10H listed, that model must have come later. The 18H was the coprion-belled director.
I think there is also a description of the coprion process, but Bruce already did a good job of that.
They did not list bore sizes back then for some reason.
- brassmedic
- Posts: 1447
- Joined: Dec 14, 2018
According to the Conn Loyalist, the 12H was discontinued and the 10H began production in the same year, 1955.
https://cderksen.home.xs4all.nl/ConnTrbHFull.html
https://cderksen.home.xs4all.nl/ConnTrbHFull.html
- brassmedic
- Posts: 1447
- Joined: Dec 14, 2018
[quote="KathleenDuRant"]I have the 1958 48H Conn Constellation with a nickel bell.
[url]https://cderksen.home.xs4all.nl/ConnArticle20.html
This post says 'probably the 48H through 9xx,xxx.'
Mine is 754106
48H LW
If the bell is silver could you tell by the weight?
Thanks![/quote]
I am skeptical of the claim that the 48H ever had a coprion bell. We have discussed this before, and some people thought this belief was due to mistaking the layer of copper plating under the nickel plating for solid copper. My 48H is later than 999999, but I can see some copper plating showing inside of the bell, and after the plating ends it looks like normal yellow brass. It should be fairly easy to tell if yours is coprion by shining a flashlight into the bell and examining the unplated part of the inside of the bell.
This post says 'probably the 48H through 9xx,xxx.'
Mine is 754106
48H LW
If the bell is silver could you tell by the weight?
Thanks![/quote]
I am skeptical of the claim that the 48H ever had a coprion bell. We have discussed this before, and some people thought this belief was due to mistaking the layer of copper plating under the nickel plating for solid copper. My 48H is later than 999999, but I can see some copper plating showing inside of the bell, and after the plating ends it looks like normal yellow brass. It should be fairly easy to tell if yours is coprion by shining a flashlight into the bell and examining the unplated part of the inside of the bell.
- brassmedic
- Posts: 1447
- Joined: Dec 14, 2018
The arrow is indicating where a small amount of the copper plating is showing, and beneath that you can see a spot where the yellow brass is showing.<ATTACHMENT filename="20240115_111309.jpg" index="0">[attachment=0]20240115_111309.jpg</ATTACHMENT>
- KathleenDuRant
- Posts: 7
- Joined: Jan 14, 2024
This is very cool! The catalog is so interesting.
- KathleenDuRant
- Posts: 7
- Joined: Jan 14, 2024
A refrigerator costs about $120 in 1958 so these horns were an investment at the time.
- KathleenDuRant
- Posts: 7
- Joined: Jan 14, 2024
James Carter "Jimmy" Pankow played a Connstellation in Chicago.
It does seem that if the Connstellation had a Coprion bell it would have been documented and the advertisements would still be available today.
- Posaunus
- Posts: 5018
- Joined: Mar 23, 2018
The 48H Connstellation never had a Coprion (copper) bell. This is a red herring based on misinformation and misunderstanding. It's hard to put such myths to bed.
Per Conn, the 48H bell was Electro-D nickel-silver (yellow brass, copper, and nickel)-plated.
Per Conn, the 48H bell was Electro-D nickel-silver (yellow brass, copper, and nickel)-plated.
- Briande
- Posts: 207
- Joined: Jan 12, 2020
[quote="KathleenDuRant"][url]https://www.metmuseum.org/art/collection/search/753559
James Carter "Jimmy" Pankow played a Connstellation in Chicago.
It does seem that if the Connstellation had a Coprion bell it would have been documented and the advertisements would still be available today.[/quote]
Jimmy played a lot of horns depending on sponsorship. He also played a 3B silversonic for a lot of year and now plays a Yamaha.
James Carter "Jimmy" Pankow played a Connstellation in Chicago.
It does seem that if the Connstellation had a Coprion bell it would have been documented and the advertisements would still be available today.[/quote]
Jimmy played a lot of horns depending on sponsorship. He also played a 3B silversonic for a lot of year and now plays a Yamaha.
- captain
- Posts: 31
- Joined: Oct 21, 2019
[quote="Mamaposaune"]Here are some pictures from a 1955 Conn catalog,
You do not have the required permissions to view the files attached to this post.
[/quote]
So, how do I get the required permissions? <EMOJI seq="1f926-2640" tseq="1f926-200d-2640-fe0f">🤦♀️</EMOJI>
You do not have the required permissions to view the files attached to this post.
[/quote]
So, how do I get the required permissions? <EMOJI seq="1f926-2640" tseq="1f926-200d-2640-fe0f">🤦♀️</EMOJI>
- BGuttman
- Posts: 7368
- Joined: Mar 22, 2018
[quote="captain"]<QUOTE author="Mamaposaune" post_id="231039" time="1705331044" user_id="3765">
Here are some pictures from a 1955 Conn catalog,
You do not have the required permissions to view the files attached to this post.
[/quote]
So, how do I get the required permissions? <EMOJI seq="1f926-2640" tseq="1f926-200d-2640-fe0f">🤦♀️</EMOJI>
</QUOTE>
You need 3 approved posts to be able to see posted pictures, send and receive Personal Messages, and see e-mail addresses. We had to do this because of 'bots and spammers. Sorry.
Here are some pictures from a 1955 Conn catalog,
You do not have the required permissions to view the files attached to this post.
[/quote]
So, how do I get the required permissions? <EMOJI seq="1f926-2640" tseq="1f926-200d-2640-fe0f">🤦♀️</EMOJI>
</QUOTE>
You need 3 approved posts to be able to see posted pictures, send and receive Personal Messages, and see e-mail addresses. We had to do this because of 'bots and spammers. Sorry.
- tromboneVan
- Posts: 270
- Joined: May 21, 2019
Believe this is a 12h...buy it so I don't have to :good: https://shopgoodwill.com/item/220372940
- biggiesmalls
- Posts: 764
- Joined: Jan 22, 2019
[quote="tromboneVan"]Believe this is a 12h...buy it so I don't have to :good: https://shopgoodwill.com/item/220372940[/quote]
Oh don't worry, someone will pay way more than it's worth so none of us will have to buy it.
And frankly, having owned a couple of each, I'd take an 18H over a 12H any day.
Oh don't worry, someone will pay way more than it's worth so none of us will have to buy it.
And frankly, having owned a couple of each, I'd take an 18H over a 12H any day.
- captain
- Posts: 31
- Joined: Oct 21, 2019
I like my 12H coprion. It may not be as new and shiny as the new yamahas, but it is light, well balanced, easy to hold, and easy to play. I also like its funky old golden mouthpiece better than anything else I’ve buzzed into. Maybe I am a weirdo. ¯\_(ツ)_/¯
- captain
- Posts: 31
- Joined: Oct 21, 2019
I just discovered that my mouthpiece is labeled "CONN 2". I cannot find these online. Does Conn-Selmer(et al.) not sell these anymore?
- BGuttman
- Posts: 7368
- Joined: Mar 22, 2018
[quote="captain"]I just discovered that my mouthpiece is labeled "CONN 2". I cannot find these online. Does Conn-Selmer(et al.) not sell these anymore?[/quote]
Conn number mouthpieces have not been sold for at least 25 years. There are modern equivalents, but I'm not sure what matches a Conn 2.
Conn number mouthpieces have not been sold for at least 25 years. There are modern equivalents, but I'm not sure what matches a Conn 2.
- Posaunus
- Posts: 5018
- Joined: Mar 23, 2018
[quote="BGuttman"]<QUOTE author="captain" post_id="266832" time="1739487966" user_id="7914">
I just discovered that my mouthpiece is labeled "CONN 2". I cannot find these online. Does Conn-Selmer(et al.) not sell these anymore?[/quote]
Conn number mouthpieces have not been sold for at least 25 years. There are modern equivalents, but I'm not sure what matches a Conn 2.
</QUOTE>
Conn's classic mouthpieces from the 1930s-1970s(+?) were (in my opinion) very good matches to their trombones of that era. I do not think there are any modern "equivalents."
I have a Conn 2 and a Conn 3, which are quite different, though they share the same exterior profile.
By my measurements:
I wish Conn had never stopped making these mouthpieces - especially the Conn 3.
I just discovered that my mouthpiece is labeled "CONN 2". I cannot find these online. Does Conn-Selmer(et al.) not sell these anymore?[/quote]
Conn number mouthpieces have not been sold for at least 25 years. There are modern equivalents, but I'm not sure what matches a Conn 2.
</QUOTE>
Conn's classic mouthpieces from the 1930s-1970s(+?) were (in my opinion) very good matches to their trombones of that era. I do not think there are any modern "equivalents."
I have a Conn 2 and a Conn 3, which are quite different, though they share the same exterior profile.
By my measurements:
- <B>Conn 2</B>: ~25.20mm (0.992") Cup I.D.; medium-deep, somewhat bowl-shaped Cup; 6.63mm (0.261") Throat.
Not at all an equivalent, but larger & deeper cup & throat vs Bach 6¾C
- <B>Conn 3</B>: ~25.35mm (0.998") Cup I/D; medium-deep, rather V-shaped Cup; 6.35mm (0.250") Throat.
Larger, more V-shaped Cup vs Conn 2. Very different from, but size roughly comparable to Bach 6½AM.
I wish Conn had never stopped making these mouthpieces - especially the Conn 3.
- captain
- Posts: 31
- Joined: Oct 21, 2019
Thanks y'all! I'm sad to hear that this may be the only mouthpiece I ever truly connect with, and that it's irreplaceable! :-o
I wonder if there's something to it being "well matched" to the 12H coprion that makes it feel so much better...
Well, I have other questions, but they're probably not apropos enough this thread, so I'll try to figure out where to ask those.
I wonder if there's something to it being "well matched" to the 12H coprion that makes it feel so much better...
Well, I have other questions, but they're probably not apropos enough this thread, so I'll try to figure out where to ask those.
- Posaunus
- Posts: 5018
- Joined: Mar 23, 2018
[quote="captain"]Thanks y'all! I'm sad to hear that this may be the only mouthpiece I ever truly connect with, and that it's irreplaceable! :-o[/quote]
Not irreplaceable - Used Conn 2 mouthpieces occasionally pop up at reasonable prices (TromboneChat, eBay, Reverb, ...).
You may also want to try a classic Conn 3 mouthpiece - more plentiful on the used market, and a good match to a Conn 12H.
Not irreplaceable - Used Conn 2 mouthpieces occasionally pop up at reasonable prices (TromboneChat, eBay, Reverb, ...).
You may also want to try a classic Conn 3 mouthpiece - more plentiful on the used market, and a good match to a Conn 12H.
- captain
- Posts: 31
- Joined: Oct 21, 2019
[quote="biggiesmalls"][ I'd take an 18H over a 12H any day.[/quote]
Why? I LOVE my 12h. Now I wonder if I’m just dumb.
Why? I LOVE my 12h. Now I wonder if I’m just dumb.
- BGuttman
- Posts: 7368
- Joined: Mar 22, 2018
[quote="captain"]<QUOTE author="biggiesmalls" post_id="264334" time="1736996152" user_id="4364">
[ I'd take an 18H over a 12H any day.[/quote]
Why? I LOVE my 12h. Now I wonder if I’m just dumb.
</QUOTE>
18H is a Director while 12H is a regular pro model. Both should be the same bore. If you wanted a bigger bore you would want the 10H.
I like the "bling" of the pro models (more nickel) but I'm not sure how differently they play.
[ I'd take an 18H over a 12H any day.[/quote]
Why? I LOVE my 12h. Now I wonder if I’m just dumb.
</QUOTE>
18H is a Director while 12H is a regular pro model. Both should be the same bore. If you wanted a bigger bore you would want the 10H.
I like the "bling" of the pro models (more nickel) but I'm not sure how differently they play.
- dwcarder
- Posts: 53
- Joined: Jun 27, 2023
The guy beside me in one of the bands I play in has an 18H. Its a good sounding horn but with a focus I interpret as designed to cut through more than others. Likewise, if it gets pushed too hard it will totally peel paint off the wall.
- biggiesmalls
- Posts: 764
- Joined: Jan 22, 2019
[quote="captain"]<QUOTE author="biggiesmalls" post_id="264334" time="1736996152" user_id="4364">
[ I'd take an 18H over a 12H any day.[/quote]
Why? I LOVE my 12h. Now I wonder if I’m just dumb.
</QUOTE>
There's nothing wrong with loving a 12H; it's a fun horn to play, and it has a good vintage vibe. But the sound in front of the bell is antiquated. Playing a 12H as the only trombone in a Ska or Dixieland group? Might work fine. But try playing a 12H in a section, and I think that most players would agree that it just doesn't blend well at all. Been there, tried that. Too dark at piano, too bright at forte. YMMV.
The 18H produces a sound that at least has a chance of blending in a section in spite of it's Coprion sound signature, and that's the primary reason why I would choose one over a 12H: it's just a more versatile horn.
[ I'd take an 18H over a 12H any day.[/quote]
Why? I LOVE my 12h. Now I wonder if I’m just dumb.
</QUOTE>
There's nothing wrong with loving a 12H; it's a fun horn to play, and it has a good vintage vibe. But the sound in front of the bell is antiquated. Playing a 12H as the only trombone in a Ska or Dixieland group? Might work fine. But try playing a 12H in a section, and I think that most players would agree that it just doesn't blend well at all. Been there, tried that. Too dark at piano, too bright at forte. YMMV.
The 18H produces a sound that at least has a chance of blending in a section in spite of it's Coprion sound signature, and that's the primary reason why I would choose one over a 12H: it's just a more versatile horn.
- biggiesmalls
- Posts: 764
- Joined: Jan 22, 2019
[quote="dwcarder"]The guy beside me in one of the bands I play in has an 18H. Its a good sounding horn but with a focus I interpret as designed to cut through more than others. Likewise, if it gets pushed too hard it will totally peel paint off the wall.[/quote]
All of these qualities are exaggerated in the 12H versus the 18H.
All of these qualities are exaggerated in the 12H versus the 18H.
- captain
- Posts: 31
- Joined: Oct 21, 2019
I surprised to hear anyone preferring the "student model" to the "pro model".
From the picutres in Mamaposaune post_id=231039 earlier post, the 12H appears to have more "bling" too. I'd kind of like to see what it looks like all cleaned up and polished to shiny new condition. :-)
From the picutres in Mamaposaune post_id=231039 earlier post, the 12H appears to have more "bling" too. I'd kind of like to see what it looks like all cleaned up and polished to shiny new condition. :-)
- biggiesmalls
- Posts: 764
- Joined: Jan 22, 2019
[quote="captain"]I surprised to hear anyone preferring the "student model" to the "pro model".[/quote]
In many instances, the distinction between a "pro" model and "student" model horn means very little, if anything, when it comes to the way the horns actually play, which is how most players judge a horn..
For example, the original Bach Mercedes student horn was identical in every way to the pro model Stradivarius 12, just lacking the 12's nickel trim. Same goes for the Bach Mercury student model, which was just a Stradivarius 6 without nickel trim. Same tooling, same craftsmen.
Doug Elliott won his Airmen of Note audition playing a Yamaha student horn; certainly no bling factor there.
The 12H premiered in 1938, while the 18H made its debut in 1954. A lot of things changed regarding both horn design and musical tastes over the course of those 16 years. In particular, the small diameter bell and the sound it produced fell out of favor. Note that the 12H was discontinued the year after the 18H was introduced.
The 1960's Directors I've owned were built to the same high standards as the Conn pro horns from the same era, minus the bling factor.
In many instances, the distinction between a "pro" model and "student" model horn means very little, if anything, when it comes to the way the horns actually play, which is how most players judge a horn..
For example, the original Bach Mercedes student horn was identical in every way to the pro model Stradivarius 12, just lacking the 12's nickel trim. Same goes for the Bach Mercury student model, which was just a Stradivarius 6 without nickel trim. Same tooling, same craftsmen.
Doug Elliott won his Airmen of Note audition playing a Yamaha student horn; certainly no bling factor there.
The 12H premiered in 1938, while the 18H made its debut in 1954. A lot of things changed regarding both horn design and musical tastes over the course of those 16 years. In particular, the small diameter bell and the sound it produced fell out of favor. Note that the 12H was discontinued the year after the 18H was introduced.
The 1960's Directors I've owned were built to the same high standards as the Conn pro horns from the same era, minus the bling factor.