Changing public tastes? Age-out problem?
- Macbone1
- Posts: 501
- Joined: Oct 01, 2019
I'm a former pro trombonist (Air Force bands), now have a day job and play in "select amateur" groups, mostly unpaid. I belong to 2 big bands (used to be 3). Whenever these groups perform, the audience is tiny, composed of friends and family exclusively. A few "townies" may be there at the start but will eventually wander away. Audience attentiveness seems indifferent. Advance publicity has always been quite good. Have Americans stopped caring about this music, or is this purely a regional problem? (New England). The level of playing is certainly decent.
On a related note, I'm also in a couple of community orchestras. I worry about the pool of players "aging out" and no backfills coming in from younger players. Young people around here spend their spare time on video games mostly, some sports, and since there is no longer any real prospect to studying music as a profession, they quit playing their horns after HS unless they take a band elective in college. HS and college music teachers are not bringing students with them to rehearsals anymore.
I'm generalizing of course but that's the trend, regionally anyway. Who is going to replace us in these fine community groups? Prospects look bleak. Anyone else feel the same?
On a related note, I'm also in a couple of community orchestras. I worry about the pool of players "aging out" and no backfills coming in from younger players. Young people around here spend their spare time on video games mostly, some sports, and since there is no longer any real prospect to studying music as a profession, they quit playing their horns after HS unless they take a band elective in college. HS and college music teachers are not bringing students with them to rehearsals anymore.
I'm generalizing of course but that's the trend, regionally anyway. Who is going to replace us in these fine community groups? Prospects look bleak. Anyone else feel the same?
- Mamaposaune
- Posts: 657
- Joined: Sep 22, 2018
Absolutely, Mac. I'm seeing the same trend in south Jersey, your old stompin' grounds.
One of the (unpaid) groups that I play in is a wind ensemble made up of mostly semi-pros, former pros, and retired music teachers. The group dates back about 50 years; our current conductor has been with the group for +/- 45 years. He is professor emeritus of the U. of Delaware, and is now in his upper 70's. We play a variety of challenging and entertaining music.
The majority of the band has been there for many years - I joined about 20 years ago; our low brass section has not changed in at least 15 years.
So - we are definitely aging out. The "young" members are in their 40's, and the vast majority of them were recruited by our conductor, former students who played under him at U.D. and want to keep their chops up.
Our "gigs" are dwindling, our audiences are dwindling. The venues that have an ongoing weekly concert series are where we have the best crowds. (Such as they are) Our conductor spends many hours on emails and phone calls to line up concerts; not too many years back he was the one receiving the calls.
It is sad, indeed. But I'm glad to have the opportunity, I often think to myself that my current private students will probably not have the chance to continue because of where the industry is heading.
One of the (unpaid) groups that I play in is a wind ensemble made up of mostly semi-pros, former pros, and retired music teachers. The group dates back about 50 years; our current conductor has been with the group for +/- 45 years. He is professor emeritus of the U. of Delaware, and is now in his upper 70's. We play a variety of challenging and entertaining music.
The majority of the band has been there for many years - I joined about 20 years ago; our low brass section has not changed in at least 15 years.
So - we are definitely aging out. The "young" members are in their 40's, and the vast majority of them were recruited by our conductor, former students who played under him at U.D. and want to keep their chops up.
Our "gigs" are dwindling, our audiences are dwindling. The venues that have an ongoing weekly concert series are where we have the best crowds. (Such as they are) Our conductor spends many hours on emails and phone calls to line up concerts; not too many years back he was the one receiving the calls.
It is sad, indeed. But I'm glad to have the opportunity, I often think to myself that my current private students will probably not have the chance to continue because of where the industry is heading.
- JLivi
- Posts: 870
- Joined: May 10, 2018
HS teachers used to take their students to rehearsals?
Maybe it's just a different time, but I feel like any administration would not let that fly. The amount of hoops i have to jump through just to get into a school these days is kind of crazy. But also, I understand why they do it.
I don't have an answer to your question, and I don't feel comfortable speculating about a community that i know very little about. So I'll just not say anything :-)
Maybe it's just a different time, but I feel like any administration would not let that fly. The amount of hoops i have to jump through just to get into a school these days is kind of crazy. But also, I understand why they do it.
I don't have an answer to your question, and I don't feel comfortable speculating about a community that i know very little about. So I'll just not say anything :-)
- baileyman
- Posts: 1169
- Joined: Mar 24, 2018
Also in MA, here, the hot spots seem to be the senior centers. The audience knows the music (at least for now) and the band form.
I worry that the old guys are almost gone now, the ones with contemporary experience. There seems to be a kind of momentum keeping it going in some places, like the mil bands, LA, maybe a couple other places.
This being said, there's a lot of music that now seems to me in most places to be unplayable, no matter how pro the band. Individually guys can rip through the parts, but the band part is often forgotten.
The best times I have these days are at the senior centers playing in tunes bands. Even that seems to be aging out, though, as even among people older than me the memory of the melodies is fading.
I worry that the old guys are almost gone now, the ones with contemporary experience. There seems to be a kind of momentum keeping it going in some places, like the mil bands, LA, maybe a couple other places.
This being said, there's a lot of music that now seems to me in most places to be unplayable, no matter how pro the band. Individually guys can rip through the parts, but the band part is often forgotten.
The best times I have these days are at the senior centers playing in tunes bands. Even that seems to be aging out, though, as even among people older than me the memory of the melodies is fading.
- timothy42b
- Posts: 1812
- Joined: Mar 27, 2018
That's what I see also. Fewer community groups, and around here the weekly summer concert in the park has vanished.
The players are aging out and the audiences already have, except for those captive in nursing homes.
Another factor might be demographics. A lot of the music in those amateur bands was written by dead white guys and played by old white guys, and that mix has changed in a lot of areas.
The players are aging out and the audiences already have, except for those captive in nursing homes.
Another factor might be demographics. A lot of the music in those amateur bands was written by dead white guys and played by old white guys, and that mix has changed in a lot of areas.
- Macbone1
- Posts: 501
- Joined: Oct 01, 2019
Thanks for the inputs guys. Though of course I wish it was more encouraging!
Yes, JLivi, there used to be a more innocent time when HS band directors would swing by a promising student's house and give them a ride to a community wind ensemble to broaden their experience. One band teacher brought a whole Suburban full of his band kids to community wind ensemble rehearsals, circa 1972. It was conducted by a college prof so they did things no HS band was doing at the time. Members would also bring their own talented children along; haven't seen that in many years.
Not only are prospects looking bleak going forward, but where are the "voices" that will be raised to try and keep these traditions alive? They are probably very senior too. As timothy42b says, it's become a geriatric context. The average age in my bands and orchestras has got to be over 55. My big bands probably average about 70.
Even those federally funded stalwarts, the military bands, are dwindling. There are major and permanent cuts every 18-22 years. If the general public has less interest than ever in Sousa and Glenn Miller, what makes us think the generals would feel any different? They allocate the funding.
Yes, JLivi, there used to be a more innocent time when HS band directors would swing by a promising student's house and give them a ride to a community wind ensemble to broaden their experience. One band teacher brought a whole Suburban full of his band kids to community wind ensemble rehearsals, circa 1972. It was conducted by a college prof so they did things no HS band was doing at the time. Members would also bring their own talented children along; haven't seen that in many years.
Not only are prospects looking bleak going forward, but where are the "voices" that will be raised to try and keep these traditions alive? They are probably very senior too. As timothy42b says, it's become a geriatric context. The average age in my bands and orchestras has got to be over 55. My big bands probably average about 70.
Even those federally funded stalwarts, the military bands, are dwindling. There are major and permanent cuts every 18-22 years. If the general public has less interest than ever in Sousa and Glenn Miller, what makes us think the generals would feel any different? They allocate the funding.
- OneTon
- Posts: 757
- Joined: Nov 02, 2021
Yes and no. The community band is strong in Wichita, Kansas and we get younger players who stick as well as elementary, middle school, and high school directors and retirees. Sometimes the big bands draw and sometimes not. Wichita, Salina, Hayes, and Newton all have semi pro orchestra ensembles. Paid players with day jobs and higher level teachers and professors as section leaders.
The US Army Jazz Ambassadors and USAF Airman of
Note are standing room only, almost anywhere they play in Kansas.
I was pulled out of a civilian supplier company to go play big band for the generals when we returned one of the Air Force One’s to the 89th AF Squadron, and President George Bush, who also showed up for the occasion. It was more along the lines of program depot maintenance than a phase check. Security was pretty tight. The generals demanded it. Somebody likes it.
Without being unrealistic, we have a responsibility to promote it where we can. We should be on the lookout for opportunities to play and make “friends” whenever possible.
The US Army Jazz Ambassadors and USAF Airman of
Note are standing room only, almost anywhere they play in Kansas.
I was pulled out of a civilian supplier company to go play big band for the generals when we returned one of the Air Force One’s to the 89th AF Squadron, and President George Bush, who also showed up for the occasion. It was more along the lines of program depot maintenance than a phase check. Security was pretty tight. The generals demanded it. Somebody likes it.
Without being unrealistic, we have a responsibility to promote it where we can. We should be on the lookout for opportunities to play and make “friends” whenever possible.
- harrisonreed
- Posts: 6479
- Joined: Aug 17, 2018
Sorry guys, but Big Band and jazz aren't what the kids are listening to. That's just a fact. Since, like, 1980.
Jazz for me is the one that I don't get. It's turned into an art form for artists to wow other artists. The audience is left out most of the time. No wonder it isn't popular or main stream.
If your entire audience consists of other jazz musicians or trombonists, etc, you're not mainstream. What should we do?
Jazz for me is the one that I don't get. It's turned into an art form for artists to wow other artists. The audience is left out most of the time. No wonder it isn't popular or main stream.
If your entire audience consists of other jazz musicians or trombonists, etc, you're not mainstream. What should we do?
- Ted
- Posts: 66
- Joined: Mar 23, 2018
Yes! Here in the Netherlands, you'll see the same: the local wind bands (every town has one) are aging. A few of them merged or stopped. However, young musicians do like to play, mostly in 'American' brass bands, as we call them here. Like lucky chops and young blood etc. Some even play on festivals in between mayor acts, and the crowd goes wild..
- harrisonreed
- Posts: 6479
- Joined: Aug 17, 2018
[quote="Ted"]Yes! Here in the Netherlands, you'll see the same: the local wind bands (every town has one) are aging. A few of them merged or stopped. However, young musicians do like to play, mostly in 'American' brass bands, as we call them here. Like lucky chops and young blood etc. Some even play on festivals in between mayor acts, and the crowd goes wild..[/quote]
The key with the "American Brass Bands" is that a lot of the rep consists of covers or arrangements of current popular tunes that you can hear on the radio. They can still play it with their own style, and throw solos in, and it works.
It's what our band does in Japan. We play American rock tunes from the 80s, Japanese tunes that are relatively current, and throw in a few true New Orleans tunes -- it's very popular with people no matter where we go. People in Mongolia were rocking out to the theme from "Demon Slayer", (LiSA's "Gurenge") and they were loving it.
FWIW, we arranged this tune:
<YOUTUBE id="MpYy6wwqxoo">[media]https://youtu.be/MpYy6wwqxoo</YOUTUBE>
The key with the "American Brass Bands" is that a lot of the rep consists of covers or arrangements of current popular tunes that you can hear on the radio. They can still play it with their own style, and throw solos in, and it works.
It's what our band does in Japan. We play American rock tunes from the 80s, Japanese tunes that are relatively current, and throw in a few true New Orleans tunes -- it's very popular with people no matter where we go. People in Mongolia were rocking out to the theme from "Demon Slayer", (LiSA's "Gurenge") and they were loving it.
FWIW, we arranged this tune:
<YOUTUBE id="MpYy6wwqxoo">
- Macbone1
- Posts: 501
- Joined: Oct 01, 2019
Great to read about how brass players are adapting more contemporary music to their repertoire. Some excellent groups are also adding "gimmicks" (funny attire, no stands or chairs onstage/memorized music, "schtick" routines) to gain and hold audiences, like Mnozil brass does. As a purist, I don't think accomplished players should have to pander to that level, but whatever works and keeps the paychecks coming.
Niche groups like Chestnut Brass with their antique instruments are definitely cool, but any more than one such group is copycatting, so that's limited.
Yes, some aging community groups will have to close or merge, like the AFM locals themselves are doing these days.
Perhaps there are too many out there anyway. How many bands have been started simply because of ego? IOW, somebody got disgusted and went off to start their own band? May the best band win...
Niche groups like Chestnut Brass with their antique instruments are definitely cool, but any more than one such group is copycatting, so that's limited.
Yes, some aging community groups will have to close or merge, like the AFM locals themselves are doing these days.
Perhaps there are too many out there anyway. How many bands have been started simply because of ego? IOW, somebody got disgusted and went off to start their own band? May the best band win...
- Macbone1
- Posts: 501
- Joined: Oct 01, 2019
Harrisonreed, yes, the last hurrah for young people being interested in the big band/jazz genre in America was late 1970s to 1980 or so. Chuck Mangione, Bill Watrous, Maynard, etc were all in their heyday. Tonight show band too.
I also tend to think that mainstream jazz itself has been taken WAY too seriously in recent decades, by (ironically) mostly white players. It was a style that was originated by blacks who were just having some fun getting together with their horns. Leave it to educated whites to overanalyze and mutate it to some kind of intellectual challenge to the hearer.
I also tend to think that mainstream jazz itself has been taken WAY too seriously in recent decades, by (ironically) mostly white players. It was a style that was originated by blacks who were just having some fun getting together with their horns. Leave it to educated whites to overanalyze and mutate it to some kind of intellectual challenge to the hearer.
- WilliamLang
- Posts: 636
- Joined: Nov 22, 2019
i think it also matters that music education has been gutted and defunded across much of the nation.
- robcat2075
- Posts: 1867
- Joined: Sep 03, 2018
This was already an observed problem when I doing community bands and orchestras in the 90s... the audiences were just family and friends. If you wanted more that that you had to go crash an event like an Oktoberfest or 4th of July fair that had people who were tired on their feet and were eager to sit for a spell.
But the ensembles themselves could not draw a crowd on their own reknown.
There is too much competition for ears. Why traipse out to a high school gym to hear the local community orchestra when there is a professional orchestra in town?
[quote="WilliamLang"]i think it also matters that music education has been gutted and defunded across much of the nation.[/quote]
I attribute the decline of funding of music and PE to school board members who, in their youth, were students of these programs and had mostly unpleasant memories to call up about them. The programs did little for them and they recognize that.
Meanwhile they have a third of their student body that isn't passing basic reading and math goals. Where to spend the money?
But the ensembles themselves could not draw a crowd on their own reknown.
There is too much competition for ears. Why traipse out to a high school gym to hear the local community orchestra when there is a professional orchestra in town?
[quote="WilliamLang"]i think it also matters that music education has been gutted and defunded across much of the nation.[/quote]
I attribute the decline of funding of music and PE to school board members who, in their youth, were students of these programs and had mostly unpleasant memories to call up about them. The programs did little for them and they recognize that.
Meanwhile they have a third of their student body that isn't passing basic reading and math goals. Where to spend the money?
- Mamaposaune
- Posts: 657
- Joined: Sep 22, 2018
<YOUTUBE id="8Sf4TMfMS08">https://youtu.be/8Sf4TMfMS08</YOUTUBE>
Maybe this is what community bands need to do in order to draw a crowd.
Maybe this is what community bands need to do in order to draw a crowd.
- Bach5G
- Posts: 2874
- Joined: Apr 07, 2018
I received advertising from our local professional symphony’s upcoming season.It’s full of movie tie-ins, pops, and minor celebs. Nothing caught my eye. It made me wonder why we bother with a symphony.
Meanwhile, in the two amateur orchs I play in we will be doing Beethoven 9 and Missa Solemnis, Tchaik 5, and Shostakovich 5.
Meanwhile, in the two amateur orchs I play in we will be doing Beethoven 9 and Missa Solemnis, Tchaik 5, and Shostakovich 5.
- Mamaposaune
- Posts: 657
- Joined: Sep 22, 2018
[quote="Bach5G"]I received advertising from our local professional symphony’s upcoming season.It’s full of movie tie-ins, pops, and minor celebs. Nothing caught my eye. It made me wonder why we bother with a symphony.
Meanwhile, in the two amateur orchs I play in we will be doing Beethoven 9 and Missa Solemnis, Tchaik 5, and Shostakovich 5.[/quote]
I get and appreciate what you're saying, Bach 5G. I would prefer playing (and in many cases listening to) classics from the Classical and Romantic periods also, although anything by John Williams is always a blast! The amateur orchestra I play in also does more "serious" music; for example in recent years we have done Brahm's 1st; William Tell Overture, and Schubert's 9th. (Our conductor is the principal bassoonist with the Phila Orchestra)
But we musicians are not the audience that the professional orchestras need to reach in order to keep afloat. I suspect they are sacrificing and doing what they have to in order to sell the tickets.
Meanwhile, in the two amateur orchs I play in we will be doing Beethoven 9 and Missa Solemnis, Tchaik 5, and Shostakovich 5.[/quote]
I get and appreciate what you're saying, Bach 5G. I would prefer playing (and in many cases listening to) classics from the Classical and Romantic periods also, although anything by John Williams is always a blast! The amateur orchestra I play in also does more "serious" music; for example in recent years we have done Brahm's 1st; William Tell Overture, and Schubert's 9th. (Our conductor is the principal bassoonist with the Phila Orchestra)
But we musicians are not the audience that the professional orchestras need to reach in order to keep afloat. I suspect they are sacrificing and doing what they have to in order to sell the tickets.
- Ted
- Posts: 66
- Joined: Mar 23, 2018
We often try to do both. Before the intermission a more classical repertoire, and after more pops and jazzy stuff.
- Posaunus
- Posts: 5018
- Joined: Mar 23, 2018
[quote="Mamaposaune"]Maybe this is what community bands need to do in order to draw a crowd.[/quote]
That was ... corny ?
That was ... corny ?
- Bach5G
- Posts: 2874
- Joined: Apr 07, 2018
We’ve also had success with more modern music including a program of contemporary Latin American music, with one of the composers conducting his piece.
I haven’t seen much contemporary orch music at the pro level over the past few years (unless you count Harry Potter).
I haven’t seen much contemporary orch music at the pro level over the past few years (unless you count Harry Potter).
- robcat2075
- Posts: 1867
- Joined: Sep 03, 2018
Idea I've plugged before here...
A recurringly successful way of making a classical piece a popular hit is for it to be in a movie. Endless examples.
Some umbrella organization of professional orchestras like the American Orchestra League should get a budget from its members to hire an agent/s tasked with getting classical pieces into movies and tv series. The benefit to the members won't have the direct payoff that a "product placement" of a soft drink or a car does but if they could manufacture just one or two hits a year over ten years that would be a significant body of audience attention-grabbers to draw from as they plan their seasons.
This will never happen, of course.
A recurringly successful way of making a classical piece a popular hit is for it to be in a movie. Endless examples.
Some umbrella organization of professional orchestras like the American Orchestra League should get a budget from its members to hire an agent/s tasked with getting classical pieces into movies and tv series. The benefit to the members won't have the direct payoff that a "product placement" of a soft drink or a car does but if they could manufacture just one or two hits a year over ten years that would be a significant body of audience attention-grabbers to draw from as they plan their seasons.
This will never happen, of course.
- Macbone1
- Posts: 501
- Joined: Oct 01, 2019
Mamaposaune and others - it does seem like bands/orchestras feel the need to "roll out" another "meet the instruments" type of presentation again every once in a while. Or at least a splashy section feature. To remind people of where this tradition comes from and why we still love it. Does it help? Probably less than it once did.
- Macbone1
- Posts: 501
- Joined: Oct 01, 2019
Seeking to remain viable by pursuing "excellence for the sake of excellence" sounds noble but won't work. It's been proven.
A virtuoso blacksmith is better than an everyday blacksmith, but who actually wants one? Not many do. That's what is eroding the military bands. Sure, most if not all sound great, but who under age 85 is gonna dig that repertoire?
A virtuoso blacksmith is better than an everyday blacksmith, but who actually wants one? Not many do. That's what is eroding the military bands. Sure, most if not all sound great, but who under age 85 is gonna dig that repertoire?
- afugate
- Posts: 671
- Joined: Mar 23, 2018
Perhaps it was the advent of MTV, but today's music is a visual art form as much as it is an aural form. I was reminded of this with Christian Lindberg's performance at the ITF.
Music that is only heard... is now routinely ignored.
--Andy in OKC
Music that is only heard... is now routinely ignored.
--Andy in OKC
- timothy42b
- Posts: 1812
- Joined: Mar 27, 2018
[quote="Macbone1"]
A virtuoso blacksmith is better than an everyday blacksmith, but who actually wants one? Not many do. That's what is eroding the military bands. Sure, most if not all sound great, but who under age 85 is gonna dig that repertoire?[/quote]
I've been to a huge number of ceremonies supported by Army bands. (30 years as a civilian, expected though not technically required to be present)
Sometimes for a change of command of very high rank the full band would play.
That's maybe once every 2 or 3 years.
The other few hundred performances were all small groups - 4 or 5 piece subgroups of the main body.
A virtuoso blacksmith is better than an everyday blacksmith, but who actually wants one? Not many do. That's what is eroding the military bands. Sure, most if not all sound great, but who under age 85 is gonna dig that repertoire?[/quote]
I've been to a huge number of ceremonies supported by Army bands. (30 years as a civilian, expected though not technically required to be present)
Sometimes for a change of command of very high rank the full band would play.
That's maybe once every 2 or 3 years.
The other few hundred performances were all small groups - 4 or 5 piece subgroups of the main body.
- robcat2075
- Posts: 1867
- Joined: Sep 03, 2018
People addressing inequities in government spending will often point to the fact that the US military band budget dwarfs the budget for The National Endowment for the Arts.
In the 1980s I think the band budget was about 10x the NEA. After cuts to both, the band budget is still 2-3x what the NEA gets.
On the one hand, it's probably hard to justify that imbalance to anyone not in the military and on the other, I suspect something that has made the recent cuts to band spending in the Defense budgets possible is that more recent generations who have little love for traditional band culture or its cost are rising to command positions in the military and also recent ex-military are taking seats in Congress.
In the 1980s I think the band budget was about 10x the NEA. After cuts to both, the band budget is still 2-3x what the NEA gets.
On the one hand, it's probably hard to justify that imbalance to anyone not in the military and on the other, I suspect something that has made the recent cuts to band spending in the Defense budgets possible is that more recent generations who have little love for traditional band culture or its cost are rising to command positions in the military and also recent ex-military are taking seats in Congress.
- Macbone1
- Posts: 501
- Joined: Oct 01, 2019
timothy 42B, when I started in with the Air Force (1980s) we used the entire concert band or the entire marching band on lots of things. Some were downright silly. We used the whole marching band for everyday Retreat! That's when the honor guard takes the base flag down at the end of the day and we played Taps and a couple marches and the SSB. What extravagant use of live music since maybe 20 or 30 people would notice it.
We also would squeeze the whole symphonic band into the Officer's club for "floor shows" before breaking down to 18 piece dance band after dinner. Unheard of today - lots of small groups now instead.
robcat2075, all true. As I said, who has "love for band culture" anymore that is under age 85? The band commanders have also "done it to themselves" by refusing to update ensemble and repertoire formats beyond the original comfy 1950s music education paradigm. Except they did add separate rock combos years ago.
We also would squeeze the whole symphonic band into the Officer's club for "floor shows" before breaking down to 18 piece dance band after dinner. Unheard of today - lots of small groups now instead.
robcat2075, all true. As I said, who has "love for band culture" anymore that is under age 85? The band commanders have also "done it to themselves" by refusing to update ensemble and repertoire formats beyond the original comfy 1950s music education paradigm. Except they did add separate rock combos years ago.
- robcat2075
- Posts: 1867
- Joined: Sep 03, 2018
To today's recruits, even the rock bands probably sound like grandpa music.
- Macbone1
- Posts: 501
- Joined: Oct 01, 2019
That's gotta be the case. Pop tunes in recent times are full of bad language and use rap a lot. Not the image the AF wants to project, so rock combos became "golden oldies" groups.
- harrisonreed
- Posts: 6479
- Joined: Aug 17, 2018
[quote="Macbone1"]That's gotta be the case. Pop tunes in recent times are full of bad language and use rap a lot. Not the image the AF wants to project, so rock combos became "golden oldies" groups.[/quote]
Throughout all time, the current popular music has been full of bad words and basically spawned from Satan. There is nothing inherently wrong with rap, at least. Lots of concerts we've done have included rapping. Obviously the AF can't be spewing out obscenities, though.
The only time the service bands weren't playing the oldies was when Glenn Miller (at the time the musician with the most record sales) joined the "Air Force" (Army) and kept on pumping out music.
Throughout all time, the current popular music has been full of bad words and basically spawned from Satan. There is nothing inherently wrong with rap, at least. Lots of concerts we've done have included rapping. Obviously the AF can't be spewing out obscenities, though.
The only time the service bands weren't playing the oldies was when Glenn Miller (at the time the musician with the most record sales) joined the "Air Force" (Army) and kept on pumping out music.
- Matt_K
- Posts: 4809
- Joined: Mar 21, 2018
[quote="harrisonreed"]<QUOTE author="Macbone1" post_id="184646" time="1659004756" user_id="7770">
That's gotta be the case. Pop tunes in recent times are full of bad language and use rap a lot. Not the image the AF wants to project, so rock combos became "golden oldies" groups.[/quote]
Throughout all time, the current popular music has been full of bad words and basically spawned from Satan. There is nothing inherently wrong with rap, at least. Obviously the AF can't be spewing out obscenities, though.
The only time the service bands weren't playing the oldies was when Glen Miller (at the time the musician with the most record sales) joined the Air Force and kept on pumping out music.
</QUOTE>
And some of those lyrics in the Miller tunes.... well, oh my they said what now? :horror:
That's gotta be the case. Pop tunes in recent times are full of bad language and use rap a lot. Not the image the AF wants to project, so rock combos became "golden oldies" groups.[/quote]
Throughout all time, the current popular music has been full of bad words and basically spawned from Satan. There is nothing inherently wrong with rap, at least. Obviously the AF can't be spewing out obscenities, though.
The only time the service bands weren't playing the oldies was when Glen Miller (at the time the musician with the most record sales) joined the Air Force and kept on pumping out music.
</QUOTE>
And some of those lyrics in the Miller tunes.... well, oh my they said what now? :horror:
- BGuttman
- Posts: 7368
- Joined: Mar 22, 2018
[quote="Matt K"]...
And some of those lyrics in the Miller tunes.... well, oh my they said what now? :horror:[/quote]
Yeah. Parse out the lyrics to "Chattanooga Choo Choo" some time -- especially the opening verse. The singer is talking to someone running a shoe shine stand. I probably don't have to specify what race the shoe shine "boy" was.
And some of those lyrics in the Miller tunes.... well, oh my they said what now? :horror:[/quote]
Yeah. Parse out the lyrics to "Chattanooga Choo Choo" some time -- especially the opening verse. The singer is talking to someone running a shoe shine stand. I probably don't have to specify what race the shoe shine "boy" was.
- Macbone1
- Posts: 501
- Joined: Oct 01, 2019
Parse out the lyrics to "Chattanooga Choo Choo" some time -- especially the opening verse. The singer is talking to someone running a shoe shine stand. I probably don't have to specify what race the shoe shine "boy" was.
Not to mention the Fillmore trombone "collection", based on black minstrelsy. I think the service bands finally wised up and stopped playing Lassus et al. What on earth could you put in the program notes about that piece? How do you explain the title? Not worth it.
All eras had raunchy songs, even if you had to look around for them. The difference nowadays is that you don't have to look, they are on FM radio every day!
- BGuttman
- Posts: 7368
- Joined: Mar 22, 2018
I still like some of the tunes in the Fillmore Trombone Family, although I really cringe when I read the subtitles.
Minstrel music was popular for about 50 years ending a century ago. I'm glad that attitude has gone. But there seem to be some who would like to see it return.
There are some great tunes from the Minstrel era. Think of Stephen Foster, for example.
Minstrel music was popular for about 50 years ending a century ago. I'm glad that attitude has gone. But there seem to be some who would like to see it return.
There are some great tunes from the Minstrel era. Think of Stephen Foster, for example.
- JKno
- Posts: 48
- Joined: Jul 14, 2022
[quote="Macbone1"]Not to mention the Fillmore trombone "collection", based on black minstrelsy. I think the service bands finally wised up and stopped playing Lassus et al. What on earth could you put in the program notes about that piece? How do you explain the title? Not worth it...[/quote]
So in an effort to cure my own ignorance, I looked into it and found this article by Douglas Yeo[url]<LINK_TEXT text="https://thelasttrombone.com/2020/06/28/ ... -trombone/">https://thelasttrombone.com/2020/06/28/trombone-players-its-time-to-bury-henry-fillmores-lassus-trombone/</LINK_TEXT>
His follow-up article is linked there as well. I found both articles very educational and a bit shocking.
So in an effort to cure my own ignorance, I looked into it and found this article by Douglas Yeo
His follow-up article is linked there as well. I found both articles very educational and a bit shocking.
- imsevimse
- Posts: 1765
- Joined: Apr 29, 2018
Interesting thread!<EMOJI seq="1f44c" tseq="1f44c">👌</EMOJI><EMOJI seq="1f920" tseq="1f920">🤠</EMOJI>
I thought all the school bands you have in U.S would guarantee both audience and musicians for wind bands?
It seems like this is a global problem then. Maybe an exception is South Korea and Japan because I've heard that jazz is "cool" over there.
Where I live we can no longer recruit swedish brass players to fill chairs in pro orchestras after musicians that retire. The music education system does not produce musicians as it used to. In the early 80ies it was different when Christian Lindberg (trombone) and Håkan Hardenberger (trumpet) graduated. Back then competition was very high, but now both audience and players interested in wind bands and/or jazz bands has decreased to almost nothing.
/Tom
I thought all the school bands you have in U.S would guarantee both audience and musicians for wind bands?
It seems like this is a global problem then. Maybe an exception is South Korea and Japan because I've heard that jazz is "cool" over there.
Where I live we can no longer recruit swedish brass players to fill chairs in pro orchestras after musicians that retire. The music education system does not produce musicians as it used to. In the early 80ies it was different when Christian Lindberg (trombone) and Håkan Hardenberger (trumpet) graduated. Back then competition was very high, but now both audience and players interested in wind bands and/or jazz bands has decreased to almost nothing.
/Tom
- robcat2075
- Posts: 1867
- Joined: Sep 03, 2018
[quote="BGuttman"]<QUOTE author="Matt K" post_id="184653" time="1659012049" user_id="48">
...
And some of those lyrics in the Miller tunes.... well, oh my they said what now? :horror:[/quote]
Yeah. Parse out the lyrics to "Chattanooga Choo Choo" some time -- especially the opening verse. The singer is talking to someone running a shoe shine stand. I probably don't have to specify what race the shoe shine "boy" was.
</QUOTE>
It's not as clear as all that. I have noticed in old movies and radio shows that any man in a non-professional occupation can get called "boy".
The white elevator operator... "Ask the boy if he saw anything suspicious..."
The white telegram deliverer... "Should I tell the boy to wait for a reply?"
The boys in the band
The boys in the army
A lot of adult men were getting called "boy" back then.
I think the wide usage declined after WWII and as whites generally abandoned the service occupations we were left with older southern whites still calling the black men in those jobs "boy".
...
And some of those lyrics in the Miller tunes.... well, oh my they said what now? :horror:[/quote]
Yeah. Parse out the lyrics to "Chattanooga Choo Choo" some time -- especially the opening verse. The singer is talking to someone running a shoe shine stand. I probably don't have to specify what race the shoe shine "boy" was.
</QUOTE>
It's not as clear as all that. I have noticed in old movies and radio shows that any man in a non-professional occupation can get called "boy".
The white elevator operator... "Ask the boy if he saw anything suspicious..."
The white telegram deliverer... "Should I tell the boy to wait for a reply?"
The boys in the band
The boys in the army
A lot of adult men were getting called "boy" back then.
I think the wide usage declined after WWII and as whites generally abandoned the service occupations we were left with older southern whites still calling the black men in those jobs "boy".
- robcat2075
- Posts: 1867
- Joined: Sep 03, 2018
[quote="imsevimse"]
I thought all the school bands you have in U.S would guarantee both audience and musicians for wind bands?
[/quote]
Problem is... most of them are awful. Something only a parent could love.
They aren't building a fan base for that sort of music.
I thought all the school bands you have in U.S would guarantee both audience and musicians for wind bands?
[/quote]
Problem is... most of them are awful. Something only a parent could love.
They aren't building a fan base for that sort of music.
- BGuttman
- Posts: 7368
- Joined: Mar 22, 2018
The saving grace is things like Disneyland where concert band, marching band, and Dixieland styles are presented in an easily digestible form (by extremely talented artists). Maybe we need more such applications.
- Posaunus
- Posts: 5018
- Joined: Mar 23, 2018
[quote="BGuttman"]The saving grace is things like Disneyland where concert band, marching band, and Dixieland styles are presented in an easily digestible form (by extremely talented artists). Maybe we need more such applications.[/quote]
Unfortunately (but inevitably) Disneyland has also cut back on the number / size of their performing ensembles.
Ask BurgerBob!
Unfortunately (but inevitably) Disneyland has also cut back on the number / size of their performing ensembles.
Ask BurgerBob!
- afugate
- Posts: 671
- Joined: Mar 23, 2018
[quote="Posaunus"]Unfortunately (but inevitably) Disneyland has also cut back on the number / size of their performing ensembles.
Ask BurgerBob![/quote]
I have fond memories from the 80's and early 90's of the Future Corps at Epcot! What an amazing group! Sadly, they are gone. :(
--Andy in OKC.
Ask BurgerBob![/quote]
I have fond memories from the 80's and early 90's of the Future Corps at Epcot! What an amazing group! Sadly, they are gone. :(
--Andy in OKC.
- harrisonreed
- Posts: 6479
- Joined: Aug 17, 2018
Last I heard, Disney is far too crowded and expensive. It's sad about the bands, but people seem to barely be having a good time waiting for hours just to ride one ride. I can't imagine that the live music is even on their radar.
I remember being able to go around several times and rude the same ride over and over with no line. The last pics I saw had lines going around the lake.
I can imagine, "I didn't spend $5000 on tickets, parking, fast passes, and hotel rooms, just to wait in line all day for two rides and then settle for some wind band music."
I remember being able to go around several times and rude the same ride over and over with no line. The last pics I saw had lines going around the lake.
I can imagine, "I didn't spend $5000 on tickets, parking, fast passes, and hotel rooms, just to wait in line all day for two rides and then settle for some wind band music."
- Glennlewis
- Posts: 12
- Joined: Jul 20, 2022
So timing has worked out for me. I retired form my day job and went back to music school at the community college. During COVID the school really had no outlet for these younger musicians to get out and really rehearse and play.
I also co-manage an 18 piece big band. We perform in public one to three times a month (Tap houses, retirement communities, private events). These younger college musicians are doing great and we anticipate being able to hand the management of the band over to some of them in a few years as they finish school.
We have a longer term vision for the group than the retired pros and seasoned amateurs in the area. We also stray from the classic swing tunes. Last month a sub group put together a jazz fusion cub I and played during the intermission for the big band. We try and add a different combo or solo act during intermissions. .
It works for us.
I also co-manage an 18 piece big band. We perform in public one to three times a month (Tap houses, retirement communities, private events). These younger college musicians are doing great and we anticipate being able to hand the management of the band over to some of them in a few years as they finish school.
We have a longer term vision for the group than the retired pros and seasoned amateurs in the area. We also stray from the classic swing tunes. Last month a sub group put together a jazz fusion cub I and played during the intermission for the big band. We try and add a different combo or solo act during intermissions. .
It works for us.
- robcat2075
- Posts: 1867
- Joined: Sep 03, 2018
.
Re: use of "Boy"
Jack Benny Show Jan 31 1937
<SOUNDCLOUD id="robert-holm-n/youcangoboy" track_id="1315507519">[media]<LINK_TEXT text="https://soundcloud.com/robert-holm-n/yo ... al_sharing">https://soundcloud.com/robert-holm-n/youcangoboy?utm_source=clipboard&utm_medium=text&utm_campaign=social_sharing</LINK_TEXT></SOUNDCLOUD>
Re: use of "Boy"
Jack Benny Show Jan 31 1937
<SOUNDCLOUD id="robert-holm-n/youcangoboy" track_id="1315507519">
- atopper333
- Posts: 377
- Joined: Mar 09, 2022
[quote="robcat2075"]
Problem is... most of them are awful. Something only a parent could love.
They aren't building a fan base for that sort of music.[/quote]
Definitely agree with this one. I was a product of the junior high/high school system of a midsized town in Arizona. We competed against Phoenix and Tucson area marching bands in the early 2000s. At that point we were usually fielding 140 people after ineligibles. Small compared to the division one bands, but a decent size. Now, my old high school band is lucky to have 35 to 40 on the field, and it is the same way for all of the other high schools in the area…and it is quite difficult to listen too…
The only thing I can think of is a general lack of interest in performing in a society based around the next quick trend. Devoting the time and energy to become good at what you’re doing takes a tremendous amount of discipline and and focus. It just seems the ability to have that focus for a single tasks is seemingly becoming a thing of the past…
Problem is... most of them are awful. Something only a parent could love.
They aren't building a fan base for that sort of music.[/quote]
Definitely agree with this one. I was a product of the junior high/high school system of a midsized town in Arizona. We competed against Phoenix and Tucson area marching bands in the early 2000s. At that point we were usually fielding 140 people after ineligibles. Small compared to the division one bands, but a decent size. Now, my old high school band is lucky to have 35 to 40 on the field, and it is the same way for all of the other high schools in the area…and it is quite difficult to listen too…
The only thing I can think of is a general lack of interest in performing in a society based around the next quick trend. Devoting the time and energy to become good at what you’re doing takes a tremendous amount of discipline and and focus. It just seems the ability to have that focus for a single tasks is seemingly becoming a thing of the past…
- robcat2075
- Posts: 1867
- Joined: Sep 03, 2018
[quote="atopper333"]…and it is quite difficult to listen too…
[/quote]
Yup.
I'm sure cases like this are not rare...
<YOUTUBE id="xVe3wWo11a0">[media]https://youtu.be/xVe3wWo11a0</YOUTUBE>
[/quote]
Yup.
I'm sure cases like this are not rare...
<YOUTUBE id="xVe3wWo11a0">
- imsevimse
- Posts: 1765
- Joined: Apr 29, 2018
Thank you Robert!!! <EMOJI seq="1f600" tseq="1f600">😀</EMOJI><EMOJI seq="1f600" tseq="1f600">😀</EMOJI><EMOJI seq="1f600" tseq="1f600">😀</EMOJI><EMOJI seq="1f44d" tseq="1f44d">👍</EMOJI>
Uniforms? Check!
Instruments? Check!
Audience? Check!
Number of musicians? Check!
Camera? Check!
Internet? Check!
Cheerleaders? Check!
Well, I could not help. I laughed. Hope it is more about music in other bands. I have great admiration of American musicians. Most of my jazz-heroes are americans (but a few Swedes are also on my list :good: ) I can see there are both high and low in your country, the same as here.
/Tom
Uniforms? Check!
Instruments? Check!
Audience? Check!
Number of musicians? Check!
Camera? Check!
Internet? Check!
Cheerleaders? Check!
Well, I could not help. I laughed. Hope it is more about music in other bands. I have great admiration of American musicians. Most of my jazz-heroes are americans (but a few Swedes are also on my list :good: ) I can see there are both high and low in your country, the same as here.
/Tom
- atopper333
- Posts: 377
- Joined: Mar 09, 2022
[quote="robcat2075"]<QUOTE author="atopper333" post_id="184962" time="1659345834" user_id="15001">
…and it is quite difficult to listen too…
[/quote]
Yup.
I'm sure cases like this are not rare...
<YOUTUBE id="xVe3wWo11a0">[media]https://youtu.be/xVe3wWo11a0</YOUTUBE>
</QUOTE>
Oh my………….
…and it is quite difficult to listen too…
[/quote]
Yup.
I'm sure cases like this are not rare...
<YOUTUBE id="xVe3wWo11a0">
</QUOTE>
Oh my………….
- elmsandr
- Posts: 1373
- Joined: Mar 23, 2018
Man, this ain’t that bad…. With this recording, even a good band would sound terrible.
Sure, there’s some intonation troubles… I’m not going to try to guess if it is 20 degrees warmer when they were marching than when they warmed up on this day.
Kids are trying and they are having fun, not sure what they did to get a label of “worst” band. They aren’t the worst by a mile…. Go find one of the bands of kids that aren’t trying and don’t want to be there.
Back on topic, for any band in any place, what almost matter more than skill or style is building a relationship with the audience. Audiences want things to succeed, if they feel connected, they’ll come back. Talk to them between numbers. Give them an opportunity to feel like they know you. Be in consistent places and have low barriers to entry. In my community summer group, our donation box for free summer concerts often brings in more than the admission to paid gigs. Go out where the people are, play and get them used to you being there.
My 0.02… y’all probably deserve some change on that,
Andy
Sure, there’s some intonation troubles… I’m not going to try to guess if it is 20 degrees warmer when they were marching than when they warmed up on this day.
Kids are trying and they are having fun, not sure what they did to get a label of “worst” band. They aren’t the worst by a mile…. Go find one of the bands of kids that aren’t trying and don’t want to be there.
Back on topic, for any band in any place, what almost matter more than skill or style is building a relationship with the audience. Audiences want things to succeed, if they feel connected, they’ll come back. Talk to them between numbers. Give them an opportunity to feel like they know you. Be in consistent places and have low barriers to entry. In my community summer group, our donation box for free summer concerts often brings in more than the admission to paid gigs. Go out where the people are, play and get them used to you being there.
My 0.02… y’all probably deserve some change on that,
Andy
- harrisonreed
- Posts: 6479
- Joined: Aug 17, 2018
Don't bag on the kids. They are doing their best.
- imsevimse
- Posts: 1765
- Joined: Apr 29, 2018
[quote="elmsandr"]Man, this ain’t that bad…. With this recording, even a good band would sound terrible.
Sure, there’s some intonation troubles…[/quote]
To be honest this do sound bad but what is good is all the other things. The cheerleaders are good. The band looks okay. Mics are on but only a few instruments are picked up (strange). I would not blame the kids. I have been a music teacher for 13 years I know students sound like that at certain points as they learn. To me the contrast is what makes it funny. Everything looks so good and then the music is not... well not as expected. That's what makes this funny. Here we would never do this. No band here will ever have all those other things in place and then sound like that. Not going to happen here <span class="emoji" title=":wink:">😉</span>
Oh, no I dont blame the kids for this, it is not their fault. I hope they keep playing so they will learn eventually. I once sounded like that too and then I had to go practice in the basement and my father got a headache.
/Tom
Sure, there’s some intonation troubles…[/quote]
To be honest this do sound bad but what is good is all the other things. The cheerleaders are good. The band looks okay. Mics are on but only a few instruments are picked up (strange). I would not blame the kids. I have been a music teacher for 13 years I know students sound like that at certain points as they learn. To me the contrast is what makes it funny. Everything looks so good and then the music is not... well not as expected. That's what makes this funny. Here we would never do this. No band here will ever have all those other things in place and then sound like that. Not going to happen here <span class="emoji" title=":wink:">😉</span>
Oh, no I dont blame the kids for this, it is not their fault. I hope they keep playing so they will learn eventually. I once sounded like that too and then I had to go practice in the basement and my father got a headache.
/Tom
- robcat2075
- Posts: 1867
- Joined: Sep 03, 2018
[quote="elmsandr"]They aren’t the worst by a mile…. Go find one of the bands of kids that aren’t trying and don’t want to be there.[/quote]
I'm sure they are not the worst, but that would go to my original thesis in this...
[quote="robcat2075"]<QUOTE author="imsevimse" post_id="184686" time="1659035609" user_id="3173">
I thought all the school bands you have in U.S would guarantee both audience and musicians for wind bands?[/quote]
Problem is... most of them are awful. Something only a parent could love.
They aren't building a fan base for that sort of music.
</QUOTE>
Still, being not the worst doesn't make them good. It's not the fault of the stadium or the weather or the microphones... there are endless videos on Youtube of better bands performing in similar circumstances and... sounding better.
They're trying and having fun? If that's all the school music program is, then it's not worth funding.
But I don't think they are trying very hard. A show like this is something a band practices every day and performs every Friday night at the school football games. Many weeks of not trying very hard has gotten them to a weak performance like this.
The adults in the room have failed them for allowing this to persist.
I'm sure they are not the worst, but that would go to my original thesis in this...
[quote="robcat2075"]<QUOTE author="imsevimse" post_id="184686" time="1659035609" user_id="3173">
I thought all the school bands you have in U.S would guarantee both audience and musicians for wind bands?[/quote]
Problem is... most of them are awful. Something only a parent could love.
They aren't building a fan base for that sort of music.
</QUOTE>
Still, being not the worst doesn't make them good. It's not the fault of the stadium or the weather or the microphones... there are endless videos on Youtube of better bands performing in similar circumstances and... sounding better.
They're trying and having fun? If that's all the school music program is, then it's not worth funding.
But I don't think they are trying very hard. A show like this is something a band practices every day and performs every Friday night at the school football games. Many weeks of not trying very hard has gotten them to a weak performance like this.
The adults in the room have failed them for allowing this to persist.
- atopper333
- Posts: 377
- Joined: Mar 09, 2022
[quote="harrisonreed"]Don't bag on the kids. They are doing their best.[/quote]
Well, didn’t want it to seem as if I was bagging on the kids at all. That would not be my intent. They are doing their best with what they are given.
In my case, this would be the normal sound in the area live sans recording equipment. This is most likely little to do with talent or will and more to do with budget cuts to feeder programs and lack of qualified or experienced educators…
This is more my mortification with the school system in America. We always see cuts to the arts programs first, as we all know already, which completely deprives the band from any support to help out with night practices, techs to come in and assist with playing/marching…equipment…
Why help out the band when you want to get the sports programs new practice equipment and fancy new uniforms every year. I wouldn’t bag on them for buying the helmets pads, etc…after all, that is safety equipment.
As for this, it’s just sad to see because I know these kids are doing their best. It just seems in most cases our bands have absolutely no support from our schools in the form of funding for equipment/instruction.
My high school band used to do our State’s high grade of Superior most years prior to my attendance. At that time they would do two 3 hour night practices a week during marching season. When I went we got a mixed bag of superiors and excellent after dropping to one night practice a week due to budget cuts and the such and it showed.
This doesn’t even take into effect the current inflation and other economic concerns plaguing our communities.
It’s a much deeper problem and my original comment was meant to be way more complex then ‘making fun of the children.’ We should lift them up and support them as much as possible…I do apologize if it came across that way, definitely not the intent.
Well, didn’t want it to seem as if I was bagging on the kids at all. That would not be my intent. They are doing their best with what they are given.
In my case, this would be the normal sound in the area live sans recording equipment. This is most likely little to do with talent or will and more to do with budget cuts to feeder programs and lack of qualified or experienced educators…
This is more my mortification with the school system in America. We always see cuts to the arts programs first, as we all know already, which completely deprives the band from any support to help out with night practices, techs to come in and assist with playing/marching…equipment…
Why help out the band when you want to get the sports programs new practice equipment and fancy new uniforms every year. I wouldn’t bag on them for buying the helmets pads, etc…after all, that is safety equipment.
As for this, it’s just sad to see because I know these kids are doing their best. It just seems in most cases our bands have absolutely no support from our schools in the form of funding for equipment/instruction.
My high school band used to do our State’s high grade of Superior most years prior to my attendance. At that time they would do two 3 hour night practices a week during marching season. When I went we got a mixed bag of superiors and excellent after dropping to one night practice a week due to budget cuts and the such and it showed.
This doesn’t even take into effect the current inflation and other economic concerns plaguing our communities.
It’s a much deeper problem and my original comment was meant to be way more complex then ‘making fun of the children.’ We should lift them up and support them as much as possible…I do apologize if it came across that way, definitely not the intent.
- atopper333
- Posts: 377
- Joined: Mar 09, 2022
[quote="robcat2075"]<QUOTE author="elmsandr" post_id="185003" time="1659393192" user_id="147">
They aren’t the worst by a mile…. Go find one of the bands of kids that aren’t trying and don’t want to be there.[/quote]
I'm sure they are not the worst, but that would go to my original thesis in this...
[quote="robcat2075"]
Problem is... most of them are awful. Something only a parent could love.
They aren't building a fan base for that sort of music.[/quote]
Still, being not the worst doesn't make them good. It's not the fault of the stadium or the weather or the microphones... there are endless videos on Youtube of better bands performing in similar circumstances and... sounding better.
They're trying and having fun? If that's all the school music program is, then it's not worth funding.
But I don't think they are trying very hard. A show like this is something a band practices every day and performs every Friday night at the school football games. Many weeks of not trying very hard has gotten them to a weak performance like this.
The adults in the room have failed them for allowing this to persist.
</QUOTE>
I do agree with this as well. Where does the fun end and the discipline begin? Also, when do we become realistic in applicable cases, and tell the children they don’t sound well when they don’t? When do we start holding them back from reality for the sake of not hurting their feelings?
They aren’t the worst by a mile…. Go find one of the bands of kids that aren’t trying and don’t want to be there.[/quote]
I'm sure they are not the worst, but that would go to my original thesis in this...
[quote="robcat2075"]
Problem is... most of them are awful. Something only a parent could love.
They aren't building a fan base for that sort of music.[/quote]
Still, being not the worst doesn't make them good. It's not the fault of the stadium or the weather or the microphones... there are endless videos on Youtube of better bands performing in similar circumstances and... sounding better.
They're trying and having fun? If that's all the school music program is, then it's not worth funding.
But I don't think they are trying very hard. A show like this is something a band practices every day and performs every Friday night at the school football games. Many weeks of not trying very hard has gotten them to a weak performance like this.
The adults in the room have failed them for allowing this to persist.
</QUOTE>
I do agree with this as well. Where does the fun end and the discipline begin? Also, when do we become realistic in applicable cases, and tell the children they don’t sound well when they don’t? When do we start holding them back from reality for the sake of not hurting their feelings?
- WilliamLang
- Posts: 636
- Joined: Nov 22, 2019
yikes...
the people that have fun, good or not, and take away nice memories of their time playing music are more likely to go to concerts and fund the arts down the road.
edit: i'll add - there's already too many musicians for the amount of jobs everyday. we don't harp on high school english students for not writing novels, and we shouldn't expect everyone that picks up an instrument to have to be pushed to be good. education should be opening doors for kids, and letting them decide where to place their intentions and effort.
the people that have fun, good or not, and take away nice memories of their time playing music are more likely to go to concerts and fund the arts down the road.
edit: i'll add - there's already too many musicians for the amount of jobs everyday. we don't harp on high school english students for not writing novels, and we shouldn't expect everyone that picks up an instrument to have to be pushed to be good. education should be opening doors for kids, and letting them decide where to place their intentions and effort.
- atopper333
- Posts: 377
- Joined: Mar 09, 2022
[quote="WilliamLang"]yikes...
the people that have fun, good or not, and take away nice memories of their time playing music are more likely to go to concerts and fund the arts down the road.
edit: i'll add - there's already too many musicians for the amount of jobs everyday. we don't harp on high school english students for not writing novels, and we shouldn't expect everyone that picks up an instrument to have to be pushed to be good. education should be opening doors for kids, and letting them decide where to place their intentions and effort.[/quote]
It’s not about being pushed to be great. There should be a balance of the two. On the realistic side, if you send your high school bands to junior highs to recruit, and they sound good…again, doesn’t have to be great, but at least good, will this not encourage more people to join a band on the junior high level?
Is the novel an expectation in an English class? Or is being able to communicate a well formed idea in the form of writing or the ability to read and understand what is written the goal? Hence why there is a minimal standard.
How does one encourage interest in a band on a junior high level with a high school band that sounds horrible? Would it not be the similar showing up to a job interview looking disheveled? Or if you show up to a job interview and the manager that you interview with is disorganized and the work environment poor…does that make you want to work there or stay at that particular place?
It’s not about making professional musicians out of every child, it’s about keeping them interested enough to join to get those fun experiences. If my band is horrible, and it’s already ‘not cool’ to be in the band where I live…then why should I join to make it better.
Don’t get me wrong, fun is important…but there has to be more to it…
the people that have fun, good or not, and take away nice memories of their time playing music are more likely to go to concerts and fund the arts down the road.
edit: i'll add - there's already too many musicians for the amount of jobs everyday. we don't harp on high school english students for not writing novels, and we shouldn't expect everyone that picks up an instrument to have to be pushed to be good. education should be opening doors for kids, and letting them decide where to place their intentions and effort.[/quote]
It’s not about being pushed to be great. There should be a balance of the two. On the realistic side, if you send your high school bands to junior highs to recruit, and they sound good…again, doesn’t have to be great, but at least good, will this not encourage more people to join a band on the junior high level?
Is the novel an expectation in an English class? Or is being able to communicate a well formed idea in the form of writing or the ability to read and understand what is written the goal? Hence why there is a minimal standard.
How does one encourage interest in a band on a junior high level with a high school band that sounds horrible? Would it not be the similar showing up to a job interview looking disheveled? Or if you show up to a job interview and the manager that you interview with is disorganized and the work environment poor…does that make you want to work there or stay at that particular place?
It’s not about making professional musicians out of every child, it’s about keeping them interested enough to join to get those fun experiences. If my band is horrible, and it’s already ‘not cool’ to be in the band where I live…then why should I join to make it better.
Don’t get me wrong, fun is important…but there has to be more to it…
- robcat2075
- Posts: 1867
- Joined: Sep 03, 2018
I'm doubtful that many kids would be harmed or come out with bad memories by being pushed to be good.
Greatness is hard to come by but being better is within most kids' natural ability. The levers to push them are rarely exercised, however.
They ARE going to spend time getting better at something. The adults in their lives can make some decisions about whether that time is spent on math or the trombone or... "Grand Theft Auto 12".
Greatness is hard to come by but being better is within most kids' natural ability. The levers to push them are rarely exercised, however.
They ARE going to spend time getting better at something. The adults in their lives can make some decisions about whether that time is spent on math or the trombone or... "Grand Theft Auto 12".
- WilliamLang
- Posts: 636
- Joined: Nov 22, 2019
they're kids. let them have fun, the world is going to be hard enough for them.
how they're sounding on an instrument in middle school has nothing to do with their potential as a hypothetical future job interview. this is just making up straw men to say "things were better back when, when kids couldn't play video games and were ok being pushed."
trust me, society pushes kids enough. they all know the road ahead is going to be harder for them then it was for their parents. i'm amazed at their strength at every school i go to - "good" or "bad".
this idea that kids can't focus, or that parents aren't involved, or that the standards are lacking in this generation, is a fairy tale, and has been repeated throughout history without ever being true.
how they're sounding on an instrument in middle school has nothing to do with their potential as a hypothetical future job interview. this is just making up straw men to say "things were better back when, when kids couldn't play video games and were ok being pushed."
trust me, society pushes kids enough. they all know the road ahead is going to be harder for them then it was for their parents. i'm amazed at their strength at every school i go to - "good" or "bad".
this idea that kids can't focus, or that parents aren't involved, or that the standards are lacking in this generation, is a fairy tale, and has been repeated throughout history without ever being true.
- atopper333
- Posts: 377
- Joined: Mar 09, 2022
[quote="WilliamLang"]they're kids. let them have fun, the world is going to be hard enough for them.
how they're sounding on an instrument in middle school has nothing to do with their potential as a hypothetical future job interview. this is just making up straw men to say "things were better back when, when kids couldn't play video games and were ok being pushed."
trust me, society pushes kids enough. they all know the road ahead is going to be harder for them then it was for their parents. i'm amazed at their strength at every school i go to - "good" or "bad".
this idea that kids can't focus, or that parents aren't involved, or that the standards are lacking in this generation, is a fairy tale, and has been repeated throughout history without ever being true.[/quote]
My comment was not about how they are sounding in junior high…it’s about getting them through the band room door in the first place. The comment was based in recruiting not how mentioned in your response.
A straw man argument is introducing an element to an argument which doesn’t have anything to do with that argument. In this specific case, my comment was about high school bands being used to recruit junior high students to join hence the example of a job interview…
Sure, the world is going to be hard place for them, but shielding them from reality and letting them be kids for the sake of being kids creates unrealistic expectations.
Im not saying things were better ‘back in my day.’ I will say this…straddling the line between pre and post no child left behind act illustrated a night and day difference in schooling.
The idea that they can focus in a similar way as the previous generation is a fairy tale. I’ll use an example…again an example not a straw man argument, look at how information is passed these days. When the average YouTube video is a fraction of the time of a television show and the average time it takes a young teen/preteen to swipe left to the next thing on their feed is seconds…tell me how society is teaching them to focus.
Again, this is not to downplay or minimize what children are going through now…and I am a product of the previous generation doing exactly what you are suggesting, but to believe that this current generation will have the same attributes as any of the previous is a fairy tale as well. They will not have the same skills we had, they will focus different, and pointing this out is not out of line…they just develop different skills to survive in a changing world…which illustrates the context of this post. Band rooms are becoming more empty due to a changing environment, and to reduce the changes in society that are evident as a fairy tale is short sighted.
how they're sounding on an instrument in middle school has nothing to do with their potential as a hypothetical future job interview. this is just making up straw men to say "things were better back when, when kids couldn't play video games and were ok being pushed."
trust me, society pushes kids enough. they all know the road ahead is going to be harder for them then it was for their parents. i'm amazed at their strength at every school i go to - "good" or "bad".
this idea that kids can't focus, or that parents aren't involved, or that the standards are lacking in this generation, is a fairy tale, and has been repeated throughout history without ever being true.[/quote]
My comment was not about how they are sounding in junior high…it’s about getting them through the band room door in the first place. The comment was based in recruiting not how mentioned in your response.
A straw man argument is introducing an element to an argument which doesn’t have anything to do with that argument. In this specific case, my comment was about high school bands being used to recruit junior high students to join hence the example of a job interview…
Sure, the world is going to be hard place for them, but shielding them from reality and letting them be kids for the sake of being kids creates unrealistic expectations.
Im not saying things were better ‘back in my day.’ I will say this…straddling the line between pre and post no child left behind act illustrated a night and day difference in schooling.
The idea that they can focus in a similar way as the previous generation is a fairy tale. I’ll use an example…again an example not a straw man argument, look at how information is passed these days. When the average YouTube video is a fraction of the time of a television show and the average time it takes a young teen/preteen to swipe left to the next thing on their feed is seconds…tell me how society is teaching them to focus.
Again, this is not to downplay or minimize what children are going through now…and I am a product of the previous generation doing exactly what you are suggesting, but to believe that this current generation will have the same attributes as any of the previous is a fairy tale as well. They will not have the same skills we had, they will focus different, and pointing this out is not out of line…they just develop different skills to survive in a changing world…which illustrates the context of this post. Band rooms are becoming more empty due to a changing environment, and to reduce the changes in society that are evident as a fairy tale is short sighted.
- elmsandr
- Posts: 1373
- Joined: Mar 23, 2018
Again, any recording like this where you can only hear one instrument at a time that the camera (and microphone) is directly pointed at.... even a good band will sound bad. Recording outside with the wrong equipment is terrible.
This probably didn't sound great live, but it probably sounded fine. There are a few folks badly out of tune, that'll happen in all sorts of ways outside.
For all of you wanting them to sound "better"... realize that could be very relative to where they started. Do we know that these kids have been playing for years? or did they just start? Does your opinion and response change based on that information?
Weird to contrast that the topic here is nobody coming to concerts and then bagging on the potential audience for said concerts. There's plenty to build on in that video. I'd even argue that fixing the intonation isn't the biggest issue to make it better/more entertaining.
Cheers,
Andy
This probably didn't sound great live, but it probably sounded fine. There are a few folks badly out of tune, that'll happen in all sorts of ways outside.
For all of you wanting them to sound "better"... realize that could be very relative to where they started. Do we know that these kids have been playing for years? or did they just start? Does your opinion and response change based on that information?
Weird to contrast that the topic here is nobody coming to concerts and then bagging on the potential audience for said concerts. There's plenty to build on in that video. I'd even argue that fixing the intonation isn't the biggest issue to make it better/more entertaining.
Cheers,
Andy
- patrickosmith
- Posts: 114
- Joined: Mar 28, 2018
It is indeed a challenge to find a way to attract the general public to live classical music concerts. This is a sad and nearly hopeless situation.
As an organizer/promoter of classical brass concerts I have had a very difficult time in bringing a paying audience for very moderately priced events with professional grade musicians and world class repertoire and concerts halls. It is very difficult to get the general public to get of their arse to do anything (let alone hear a classical music concert).
Yet I've also noticed that nearly every middle school band concert has all of the seats filled.
My conclusion is that any event that endeavors to attract the general public must have a personal connection. For example, in the middle school band concert scenario "little Johnny playing the whatever" has at least one or two adult family members (often two parents, two grandparents and some siblings). Even with the local schools now resorting to charging admission for these events to bolster their budget. Nearly sold out every time.
But just try to get the public to go hear professional grade brass players from across North America and livestreamed to the world at a world-class concert hall.
This year's "Afternoon of Brass #1" included some great music ... Mahler #2 finale (11 minute version) and John Williams "Hymn to the Fallen" both with brass and chorus ... Dukas "Fanfare from La Peri" with professional brass from across North America ...[url]https://youtu.be/76GMgeOJCcg ... and many more great selections. Did the general public care to attend? No. Difficult situation indeed.
I'm all ears on how to sell/market next year's "Afternoon of Brass #2" to the general public.[url]https://ab2nbe.eventbrite.com/
As an organizer/promoter of classical brass concerts I have had a very difficult time in bringing a paying audience for very moderately priced events with professional grade musicians and world class repertoire and concerts halls. It is very difficult to get the general public to get of their arse to do anything (let alone hear a classical music concert).
Yet I've also noticed that nearly every middle school band concert has all of the seats filled.
My conclusion is that any event that endeavors to attract the general public must have a personal connection. For example, in the middle school band concert scenario "little Johnny playing the whatever" has at least one or two adult family members (often two parents, two grandparents and some siblings). Even with the local schools now resorting to charging admission for these events to bolster their budget. Nearly sold out every time.
But just try to get the public to go hear professional grade brass players from across North America and livestreamed to the world at a world-class concert hall.
This year's "Afternoon of Brass #1" included some great music ... Mahler #2 finale (11 minute version) and John Williams "Hymn to the Fallen" both with brass and chorus ... Dukas "Fanfare from La Peri" with professional brass from across North America ...
I'm all ears on how to sell/market next year's "Afternoon of Brass #2" to the general public.
- Bach5G
- Posts: 2874
- Joined: Apr 07, 2018
I posted above about the local symph’s upcoming season. Harry Potter etc. Meh.
Meanwhile, the local pro opera has announced its 2022-2023 season (the first since COVID): Pearl Fishers, Midsummer Night’s Dream, Flying Dutchman. I’m definitely interested. A little pricey though.
Meanwhile, the local pro opera has announced its 2022-2023 season (the first since COVID): Pearl Fishers, Midsummer Night’s Dream, Flying Dutchman. I’m definitely interested. A little pricey though.
- bwilliams
- Posts: 44
- Joined: Apr 25, 2018
[quote="patrickosmith"]
My conclusion is that any event that endeavors to attract the general public must have a personal connection. For example, in the middle school band concert scenario "little Johnny playing the whatever" has at least one or two adult family members (often two parents, two grandparents and some siblings). Even with the local schools now resorting to charging admission for these events to bolster their budget. Nearly sold out every time.
[/quote]
This!!!!
:good:
My conclusion is that any event that endeavors to attract the general public must have a personal connection. For example, in the middle school band concert scenario "little Johnny playing the whatever" has at least one or two adult family members (often two parents, two grandparents and some siblings). Even with the local schools now resorting to charging admission for these events to bolster their budget. Nearly sold out every time.
[/quote]
This!!!!
:good:
- pmeiden
- Posts: 33
- Joined: Jul 30, 2018
I’ve been very lucky to be associated with a few concert bands over my career (HS through non-music university, and business life). I live in suburban NYC, and every summer there’s a summer parks band in Scarsdale NY. The Westchester Band (founded 1969) plays 8 concerts a summer (rehearse Monday play Thursday) and currently numbers about 75 members - core are music teachers and local pros / semi pros, augmented by community members and local students. Concerts draw 250 or so in audience - its in a park, the adjacent street is closed, local delis and restaurants are open. It’s a great night of light classics, marches, show tunes, mystery tune with prizes, etc. Most of the kids in the band go on to major in something other than music, but most keep playing in their university wind ensembles, college town community bands, etc. For many who grew up playing and hearing live music, it is a place where the next generation is engaged, meet people who may or may not music for a living, and realize it OK to play well but do something else. And then they stay with it.
(not) Random example of 1. My daughter played volleyball, basketball and trumpet - all quite well - through HS. She played with me in the band mentioned above as well as its winter iteration. She played basketball and majored in geophysics at Caltech, and played trumpet in the Caltech/Oxy concert band, and Caltech’s commencement brass ensemble. She’s now at Cornell in a PhD program, and is playing tonight with the Ithaca Concert Band. I tend to think the ensemble playing she was exposed to in HS had an impact on sustaining her interest.
(not) Random example of 1. My daughter played volleyball, basketball and trumpet - all quite well - through HS. She played with me in the band mentioned above as well as its winter iteration. She played basketball and majored in geophysics at Caltech, and played trumpet in the Caltech/Oxy concert band, and Caltech’s commencement brass ensemble. She’s now at Cornell in a PhD program, and is playing tonight with the Ithaca Concert Band. I tend to think the ensemble playing she was exposed to in HS had an impact on sustaining her interest.
- robcat2075
- Posts: 1867
- Joined: Sep 03, 2018
The argument that they don't need to do well because none of it is important for real life anyway will make for difficulty later when you have to explain why this band thing should be in the tax-payer funded public school curriculum at all.
There are other things that they should do well and will be important in real life. Maybe the funding should go to those? What school board member would not wonder about that?
There are other things that they should do well and will be important in real life. Maybe the funding should go to those? What school board member would not wonder about that?
- afugate
- Posts: 671
- Joined: Mar 23, 2018
Yep, don't bag on the kids. Who knows where they've started and how much work they put in to get where they are. I've worked with some of our local school bands, where they've had revolving band directors - a new one every year. No private lesson teachers. Often, the director du jour has just basic understanding of anything besides their principal instrument.
And yet these kids keep plugging away! :good:
--Andy in OKC
And yet these kids keep plugging away! :good:
--Andy in OKC
- bellend
- Posts: 218
- Joined: Mar 23, 2018
Just to add my tuppence worth, maybe more kids would be inspired to play if they felt more of a conection to the music being played by the ensemble :idk:
Check out this band called MEUTE the crowd are certainly digging it
<YOUTUBE id="NMefxohehPQ">https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=NMefxohehPQ</YOUTUBE>
BellEnd
Check out this band called MEUTE the crowd are certainly digging it
<YOUTUBE id="NMefxohehPQ">https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=NMefxohehPQ</YOUTUBE>
BellEnd
- patrickosmith
- Posts: 114
- Joined: Mar 28, 2018
[quote="bellend"]Just to add my tuppence worth, maybe more kids would be inspired to play if they felt more of a conection to the music being played by the ensemble :idk:
Check out this band called MEUTE the crowd are certainly digging it
<YOUTUBE id="NMefxohehPQ">https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=NMefxohehPQ</YOUTUBE>
BellEnd[/quote]
It's one thing to inspire kids to play. It's an entirely different and more challenging thing altogether to get an audience to pay money to listen to a performance.
This was interesting and fun listening. But, I'm guessing no one in the audience actually paid money to see this performance. It's probably an audience of convenience (they happen to be there for something). True?
Check out this band called MEUTE the crowd are certainly digging it
<YOUTUBE id="NMefxohehPQ">https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=NMefxohehPQ</YOUTUBE>
BellEnd[/quote]
It's one thing to inspire kids to play. It's an entirely different and more challenging thing altogether to get an audience to pay money to listen to a performance.
This was interesting and fun listening. But, I'm guessing no one in the audience actually paid money to see this performance. It's probably an audience of convenience (they happen to be there for something). True?
- Fidbone
- Posts: 383
- Joined: Apr 24, 2018
[quote="patrickosmith"]<QUOTE author="bellend" post_id="185724" time="1660054483" user_id="82">
Just to add my tuppence worth, maybe more kids would be inspired to play if they felt more of a conection to the music being played by the ensemble :idk:
Check out this band called MEUTE the crowd are certainly digging it
<YOUTUBE id="NMefxohehPQ">https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=NMefxohehPQ</YOUTUBE>
BellEnd[/quote]
It's one thing to inspire kids to play. It's an entirely different and more challenging thing altogether to get an audience to pay money to listen to a performance.
This was interesting and fun listening. But, I'm guessing no one in the audience actually paid money to see this performance. It's probably an audience of convenience (they happen to be there for something). True?
</QUOTE>
One of my best German friends plays in Meute (the trombonist on this video) and I can tell you they pack out venues wherever they play.
They have had quite an extensive world touring schedule.
They have also been in the German charts! :clever:
Just to add my tuppence worth, maybe more kids would be inspired to play if they felt more of a conection to the music being played by the ensemble :idk:
Check out this band called MEUTE the crowd are certainly digging it
<YOUTUBE id="NMefxohehPQ">https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=NMefxohehPQ</YOUTUBE>
BellEnd[/quote]
It's one thing to inspire kids to play. It's an entirely different and more challenging thing altogether to get an audience to pay money to listen to a performance.
This was interesting and fun listening. But, I'm guessing no one in the audience actually paid money to see this performance. It's probably an audience of convenience (they happen to be there for something). True?
</QUOTE>
One of my best German friends plays in Meute (the trombonist on this video) and I can tell you they pack out venues wherever they play.
They have had quite an extensive world touring schedule.
They have also been in the German charts! :clever:
- bellend
- Posts: 218
- Joined: Mar 23, 2018
[quote="Fidbone"]<QUOTE author="patrickosmith" post_id="185752" time="1660067699" user_id="226">
It's one thing to inspire kids to play. It's an entirely different and more challenging thing altogether to get an audience to pay money to listen to a performance.
This was interesting and fun listening. But, I'm guessing no one in the audience actually paid money to see this performance. It's probably an audience of convenience (they happen to be there for something). True?[/quote]
One of my best German friends plays in Meute (the trombonist on this video) and I can tell you they pack out venues wherever they play.
They have had quite an extensive world touring schedule.
They have also been in the German charts! :clever:
</QUOTE>
That's great to hear ! Certainly a different take on things
BellEnd
It's one thing to inspire kids to play. It's an entirely different and more challenging thing altogether to get an audience to pay money to listen to a performance.
This was interesting and fun listening. But, I'm guessing no one in the audience actually paid money to see this performance. It's probably an audience of convenience (they happen to be there for something). True?[/quote]
One of my best German friends plays in Meute (the trombonist on this video) and I can tell you they pack out venues wherever they play.
They have had quite an extensive world touring schedule.
They have also been in the German charts! :clever:
</QUOTE>
That's great to hear ! Certainly a different take on things
BellEnd
- patrickosmith
- Posts: 114
- Joined: Mar 28, 2018
[quote="Fidbone"]One of my best German friends plays in Meute (the trombonist on this video) and I can tell you they pack out venues wherever they play.
They have had quite an extensive world touring schedule.
They have also been in the German charts! :clever:[/quote]
That is indeed inspiring.
They have had quite an extensive world touring schedule.
They have also been in the German charts! :clever:[/quote]
That is indeed inspiring.
- hornado
- Posts: 24
- Joined: Aug 12, 2022
I formed a volunteer orchestra 6 years ago and found players for all wind positions easily. Strings are a bit harder in the South but we've managed. We only do one free concert a year at the moment. We play mostly video game and film repertoire with one or two "classical" pieces mixed in. Every year we've managed to get 500-700 very enthusiastic age diverse people to come out and attend. I put decent effort into branding and use Eventbrite to track potential attendance. Advertise on facebook/instagram and put out posters.
I've been thinking of spinning off a big band in the same vein.
I've been thinking of spinning off a big band in the same vein.
- patrickosmith
- Posts: 114
- Joined: Mar 28, 2018
[quote="hornsolo"]I formed a volunteer orchestra 6 years ago and found players for all wind positions easily. Strings are a bit harder in the South but we've managed. We only do one free concert a year at the moment. We play mostly video game and film repertoire with one or two "classical" pieces mixed in. Every year we've managed to get 500-700 very enthusiastic age diverse people to come out and attend. I put decent effort into branding and use Eventbrite to track potential attendance. Advertise on facebook/instagram and put out posters.
I've been thinking of spinning off a big band in the same vein.[/quote]
I just checked out your FB page for The Elsewhen Orchestra. Interesting/compelling description.
What the backstory on the name (Elsewhen)?
I've been thinking of spinning off a big band in the same vein.[/quote]
I just checked out your FB page for The Elsewhen Orchestra. Interesting/compelling description.
What the backstory on the name (Elsewhen)?
- Bach5G
- Posts: 2874
- Joined: Apr 07, 2018
[quote="hornsolo"]I formed a volunteer orchestra 6 years ago and found players for all wind positions easily. Strings are a bit harder in the South but we've managed. We only do one free concert a year at the moment. We play mostly video game and film repertoire with one or two "classical" pieces mixed in. Every year we've managed to get 500-700 very enthusiastic age diverse people to come out and attend. I put decent effort into branding and use Eventbrite to track potential attendance. Advertise on facebook/instagram and put out posters.
I've been thinking of spinning off a big band in the same vein.[/quote]
Source for video game repertoire?
I've been thinking of spinning off a big band in the same vein.[/quote]
Source for video game repertoire?
- hornado
- Posts: 24
- Joined: Aug 12, 2022
[quote="Bach5G"]<QUOTE author="hornsolo" post_id="186172" time="1660418596" user_id="15585">
I formed a volunteer orchestra 6 years ago and found players for all wind positions easily. Strings are a bit harder in the South but we've managed. We only do one free concert a year at the moment. We play mostly video game and film repertoire with one or two "classical" pieces mixed in. Every year we've managed to get 500-700 very enthusiastic age diverse people to come out and attend. I put decent effort into branding and use Eventbrite to track potential attendance. Advertise on facebook/instagram and put out posters.
I've been thinking of spinning off a big band in the same vein.[/quote]
Source for video game repertoire?
</QUOTE>
It's difficult. Very little has been officially published. VGO Score on youtube has been the best source. The Musescore community sometimes, but can require editing. If all else fails we have someone who can arrange. Of course this will be much more complicated for a paid group.
You can get Austin Wintory's music directly from him/his website.
I formed a volunteer orchestra 6 years ago and found players for all wind positions easily. Strings are a bit harder in the South but we've managed. We only do one free concert a year at the moment. We play mostly video game and film repertoire with one or two "classical" pieces mixed in. Every year we've managed to get 500-700 very enthusiastic age diverse people to come out and attend. I put decent effort into branding and use Eventbrite to track potential attendance. Advertise on facebook/instagram and put out posters.
I've been thinking of spinning off a big band in the same vein.[/quote]
Source for video game repertoire?
</QUOTE>
It's difficult. Very little has been officially published. VGO Score on youtube has been the best source. The Musescore community sometimes, but can require editing. If all else fails we have someone who can arrange. Of course this will be much more complicated for a paid group.
You can get Austin Wintory's music directly from him/his website.
- hornado
- Posts: 24
- Joined: Aug 12, 2022
[quote="patrickosmith"]<QUOTE author="hornsolo" post_id="186172" time="1660418596" user_id="15585">
I formed a volunteer orchestra 6 years ago and found players for all wind positions easily. Strings are a bit harder in the South but we've managed. We only do one free concert a year at the moment. We play mostly video game and film repertoire with one or two "classical" pieces mixed in. Every year we've managed to get 500-700 very enthusiastic age diverse people to come out and attend. I put decent effort into branding and use Eventbrite to track potential attendance. Advertise on facebook/instagram and put out posters.
I've been thinking of spinning off a big band in the same vein.[/quote]
I just checked out your FB page for The Elsewhen Orchestra. Interesting/compelling description.
What the backstory on the name (Elsewhen)?
</QUOTE>
I just wanted a name that has some scifi/fantasy connection without being too on the nose or inappropriate for more traditional repertoire. I stumbled upon it as a term used in earlier scifi writing to describe another point time.
I formed a volunteer orchestra 6 years ago and found players for all wind positions easily. Strings are a bit harder in the South but we've managed. We only do one free concert a year at the moment. We play mostly video game and film repertoire with one or two "classical" pieces mixed in. Every year we've managed to get 500-700 very enthusiastic age diverse people to come out and attend. I put decent effort into branding and use Eventbrite to track potential attendance. Advertise on facebook/instagram and put out posters.
I've been thinking of spinning off a big band in the same vein.[/quote]
I just checked out your FB page for The Elsewhen Orchestra. Interesting/compelling description.
What the backstory on the name (Elsewhen)?
</QUOTE>
I just wanted a name that has some scifi/fantasy connection without being too on the nose or inappropriate for more traditional repertoire. I stumbled upon it as a term used in earlier scifi writing to describe another point time.
- Bach5G
- Posts: 2874
- Joined: Apr 07, 2018
In the last few days, I became aware of a big band project involving music from Studio Ghibli. A few months ago, there was a big band playing arrangements of Disney music. They bill themselves as The Happiest Big Band on Earth.
Of course, the last concert our big band did heavily featured the Basie/Nestico canon (hands up who wants to do WindMachine? How about Foo Birds?). Just like 50 years ago.
Of course, the last concert our big band did heavily featured the Basie/Nestico canon (hands up who wants to do WindMachine? How about Foo Birds?). Just like 50 years ago.
- imsevimse
- Posts: 1765
- Joined: Apr 29, 2018
[quote="Bach5G"]Of course, the last concert our big band did heavily featured the Basie/Nestico canon (hands up who wants to do WindMachine? How about Foo Birds?). Just like 50 years ago.[/quote]
I happen to play in a "Basie" band with gigs and audience. The band started in 2015 and now has it's own stage at the Olympia Theatre in Stockholm. It is a small theatre in a cellar with maximum 87 seats. We have played there regularly since March 2018 except during pandemic. We do about 20 concerts there in a year. It has been a full house several occasions where people had to turn in the door but then sometimes it's only half full. Depends alot on wether and if there are sports on the television. A lot of Frank Sinatra on the rep. We do not have "The Wind Machine" or "Flight of the Foobird" in our book but we have "I've Got You under my Skin" and "Splanky" and they get appreciation. The audience is above 50 and most around 75-85. We continue as long as we have an audience. We will do 10 more now this autumn.
/Tom
I happen to play in a "Basie" band with gigs and audience. The band started in 2015 and now has it's own stage at the Olympia Theatre in Stockholm. It is a small theatre in a cellar with maximum 87 seats. We have played there regularly since March 2018 except during pandemic. We do about 20 concerts there in a year. It has been a full house several occasions where people had to turn in the door but then sometimes it's only half full. Depends alot on wether and if there are sports on the television. A lot of Frank Sinatra on the rep. We do not have "The Wind Machine" or "Flight of the Foobird" in our book but we have "I've Got You under my Skin" and "Splanky" and they get appreciation. The audience is above 50 and most around 75-85. We continue as long as we have an audience. We will do 10 more now this autumn.
/Tom
- VJOFan
- Posts: 529
- Joined: Apr 06, 2018
A few random thoughts related to the original post…
It can be hard for “new blood” to get into groups simply because the bands are filled with players who have been in their chairs for decades. Also, a good player who finds an opening can get demotivated if stuck playing 3rd bone to players whose best days are far behind. (That’s an attitude that doesn’t need to be, but is certainly possible.)
Potential audiences have much better things to do than leave their homes, find parking, maybe arrange child care and spend two hours listening to music possibly not played at a fantastic level. Broad advertising for community groups is a bit of a waste of resources. The competition for entertainment dollars/time is with arena rock shows, touring Broadway productions, Monster Jam, the nearest professional orchestra, t.v. streaming services… the general population probably won’t think of attending an amateur band concert.
But here are models I have seen work.
-A large concert band and a separate large choir require their members to sell a minimum number of tickets to each show they put on. The audiences are mostly filled with friends and family of the musicians.
-A big band had an arrangement with a local entertainment venue and established a four show season that was regular and dependable. The quality of the group was good enough that after a couple beers and if you were dancing, they sounded good. The mailing list of the hall, the social and family connections of the musicians and some targeted work to establish relationships with ballroom dance studios combined to make this a success.
-A brass ensemble meticulously collects the contact information of everyone who comes to their shows and directly advertises through an informal, chatty newsletter and they use the professional model of season ticket packages, guest artists and themed shows
The only way to get an audience is for the group to make people feel connected to the players in some way. The music can’t be the selling point. It has to be a nice hang for the audience. Maybe they will enjoy a tune or two too.
It can be hard for “new blood” to get into groups simply because the bands are filled with players who have been in their chairs for decades. Also, a good player who finds an opening can get demotivated if stuck playing 3rd bone to players whose best days are far behind. (That’s an attitude that doesn’t need to be, but is certainly possible.)
Potential audiences have much better things to do than leave their homes, find parking, maybe arrange child care and spend two hours listening to music possibly not played at a fantastic level. Broad advertising for community groups is a bit of a waste of resources. The competition for entertainment dollars/time is with arena rock shows, touring Broadway productions, Monster Jam, the nearest professional orchestra, t.v. streaming services… the general population probably won’t think of attending an amateur band concert.
But here are models I have seen work.
-A large concert band and a separate large choir require their members to sell a minimum number of tickets to each show they put on. The audiences are mostly filled with friends and family of the musicians.
-A big band had an arrangement with a local entertainment venue and established a four show season that was regular and dependable. The quality of the group was good enough that after a couple beers and if you were dancing, they sounded good. The mailing list of the hall, the social and family connections of the musicians and some targeted work to establish relationships with ballroom dance studios combined to make this a success.
-A brass ensemble meticulously collects the contact information of everyone who comes to their shows and directly advertises through an informal, chatty newsletter and they use the professional model of season ticket packages, guest artists and themed shows
The only way to get an audience is for the group to make people feel connected to the players in some way. The music can’t be the selling point. It has to be a nice hang for the audience. Maybe they will enjoy a tune or two too.
- JasonDonnelly
- Posts: 129
- Joined: Apr 23, 2018
Hypothetically speaking, if I was a young person (ie. recent HS or college graduate) who enjoyed playing my instrument and had a general interest in performing more music, this is a non-exhaustive list of things that might keep me from joining/remaining in a community ensemble:
There are, of course, community ensembles that do not experience any of these shortcomings, but most people will only have 1 or 2 (more if they're lucky) groups available to them within a reasonable distance. And just the perception that any of these problems might exist may dissuade someone being interested in the first place.
- Nonexistence or lack of adherence to any sort of COVID safety
- Inferior level of proficiency compared to school groups or other opportunities
- Less demanding/less interesting repertoire compared to school groups or other opportunities
- Being remanded to a "lower" chair by default despite the quality of players involved
- Paying due $$$, as young people are generally broke, the cost of living continues to skyrocket, etc.
- If a burgeoning pro or semipro musician, no time/energy to devote to unpaid rehearsals and performances
- Age demographics, potential alienation or older members not being accepting of all identities
There are, of course, community ensembles that do not experience any of these shortcomings, but most people will only have 1 or 2 (more if they're lucky) groups available to them within a reasonable distance. And just the perception that any of these problems might exist may dissuade someone being interested in the first place.
- JKno
- Posts: 48
- Joined: Jul 14, 2022
[quote="bellend"]...Check out this band called MEUTE the crowd are certainly digging it...[/quote]
These guys are great fun to listen to!
These guys are great fun to listen to!
- Macbone1
- Posts: 501
- Joined: Oct 01, 2019
[quote="JasonDonnelly"]Hypothetically speaking, if I was a young person (ie. recent HS or college graduate) who enjoyed playing my instrument and had a general interest in performing more music, this is a non-exhaustive list of things that might keep me from joining/remaining in a community ensemble:
There are, of course, community ensembles that do not experience any of these shortcomings, but most people will only have 1 or 2 (more if they're lucky) groups available to them within a reasonable distance. And just the perception that any of these problems might exist may dissuade someone being interested in the first place.[/quote]
I have experienced some or all of these since leaving the Air Force band program, but never NONE of these. So I get it. But every community group has some "bugs in with the berries". Just sitting at home playing out of books only goes so far. Ensembles are natural endurance trainers, and of course listening and ensemble skills, and (the most neglected of all) following a conductor - LOL.
- Nonexistence or lack of adherence to any sort of COVID safety
- Inferior level of proficiency compared to school groups or other opportunities
- Less demanding/less interesting repertoire compared to school groups or other opportunities
- Being remanded to a "lower" chair by default despite the quality of players involved
- Paying due $$$, as young people are generally broke, the cost of living continues to skyrocket, etc.
- If a burgeoning pro or semipro musician, no time/energy to devote to unpaid rehearsals and performances
- Age demographics, potential alienation or older members not being accepting of all identities
There are, of course, community ensembles that do not experience any of these shortcomings, but most people will only have 1 or 2 (more if they're lucky) groups available to them within a reasonable distance. And just the perception that any of these problems might exist may dissuade someone being interested in the first place.[/quote]
I have experienced some or all of these since leaving the Air Force band program, but never NONE of these. So I get it. But every community group has some "bugs in with the berries". Just sitting at home playing out of books only goes so far. Ensembles are natural endurance trainers, and of course listening and ensemble skills, and (the most neglected of all) following a conductor - LOL.
- JohnL
- Posts: 2529
- Joined: Mar 23, 2018
I can't really envision someone who has played at a professional level (and I definitely include military bands in that category) or in a high level collegiate ensemble being musically fulfilled playing in a typical community band. Too many people like me hanging around.
- Macbone1
- Posts: 501
- Joined: Oct 01, 2019
I get it, and thanks for the compliment btw.
I don’t play in typical town bands unless paid, then still say no sometimes. It took me a while but l ingratiated myself into 2 excellent local brass choirs and an orchestra which would challenge almost any player. Those loftier community (unpaid) groups are out there if you can find them.
I don’t play in typical town bands unless paid, then still say no sometimes. It took me a while but l ingratiated myself into 2 excellent local brass choirs and an orchestra which would challenge almost any player. Those loftier community (unpaid) groups are out there if you can find them.
- patrickosmith
- Posts: 114
- Joined: Mar 28, 2018
This thread has been valuable to me and I welcome additional ideas from the trombone community.
As a former pro-am trombonist looking for higher quality repertoire and groups to perform with I began taking matters into my own hands about 5 years ago. After getting a semblance of my chops back by playing with local community bands, I embarked on a trajectory that has so far met with a measure of success.
First I joined a decent brass band. Second I joined the board of that band and began to influence the programming and repertoire. To do this money talks. I submitted proposals for competitively awarded grants. After winning a bunch of grant mula $$ (which surprised the management) the band was compelled to program my selections in their concerts. When covid hit I disagreed with the management's draconian measures (masks, vaccines and the like) and I have gone my own way. I didn't want to leave but the circumstances were untenable.
I began by forming my own smaller groups (sextets to dectets) to keep things going. Finally I began winning grant mula $$ again and began renting own venues and producing my own concerts. The "Afternoon of Brass #1" concert was held in June 2022. 'Fanfare from La Peri' was the opener for part 2 of that concert:[url]https://youtu.be/76GMgeOJCcg (BTW: I had a blast playing the third trombone part in this outstanding group).
BUT, the issue of small audience size remains the toughest part of all of this. It's not just about paying for expenses with grants. It's about live performance with a large live audience. So much more rewarding.
The Afternoon of Brass #1 offered:
a) Professional brass players from across North America, b) a well-known radio celebrity as emcee, c) one of the finest concert halls in the world, d) magnificent musical repertoire e) livestream to the world. The size of the paying audience was disappointing and almost embarrassing.
I agree with other posters that there must be another angle to attract an audience. It can't simply be about the music. There must be a personal connection of some sort. I like the idea of including music repertoire from "the gaming community" and intend to follow through on that.
I already tried programming music that combined organ, brass and a chorus (50 voices) but I was disappointed that the non-brass elements (viz., chorus and organ) drew very few additional audience members. Perhaps I chose the wrong chorus.
One programming idea I'm currently working for Afternoon of Brass #2[url]https://ab2nbe.eventbrite.com/ is a concert that combines Shakespeare readings with Prokofiev's "Romeo and Juliette"
[url]https://youtu.be/hqZ3hfxTf3Y I'm not sure how that will turn out yet.
Another idea is to link the program with a non-profit entity that has an existing following. It may be like looking for a unicorn.
Thoughts?
As a former pro-am trombonist looking for higher quality repertoire and groups to perform with I began taking matters into my own hands about 5 years ago. After getting a semblance of my chops back by playing with local community bands, I embarked on a trajectory that has so far met with a measure of success.
First I joined a decent brass band. Second I joined the board of that band and began to influence the programming and repertoire. To do this money talks. I submitted proposals for competitively awarded grants. After winning a bunch of grant mula $$ (which surprised the management) the band was compelled to program my selections in their concerts. When covid hit I disagreed with the management's draconian measures (masks, vaccines and the like) and I have gone my own way. I didn't want to leave but the circumstances were untenable.
I began by forming my own smaller groups (sextets to dectets) to keep things going. Finally I began winning grant mula $$ again and began renting own venues and producing my own concerts. The "Afternoon of Brass #1" concert was held in June 2022. 'Fanfare from La Peri' was the opener for part 2 of that concert:
BUT, the issue of small audience size remains the toughest part of all of this. It's not just about paying for expenses with grants. It's about live performance with a large live audience. So much more rewarding.
The Afternoon of Brass #1 offered:
a) Professional brass players from across North America, b) a well-known radio celebrity as emcee, c) one of the finest concert halls in the world, d) magnificent musical repertoire e) livestream to the world. The size of the paying audience was disappointing and almost embarrassing.
I agree with other posters that there must be another angle to attract an audience. It can't simply be about the music. There must be a personal connection of some sort. I like the idea of including music repertoire from "the gaming community" and intend to follow through on that.
I already tried programming music that combined organ, brass and a chorus (50 voices) but I was disappointed that the non-brass elements (viz., chorus and organ) drew very few additional audience members. Perhaps I chose the wrong chorus.
One programming idea I'm currently working for Afternoon of Brass #2
Another idea is to link the program with a non-profit entity that has an existing following. It may be like looking for a unicorn.
Thoughts?
- Macbone1
- Posts: 501
- Joined: Oct 01, 2019
patrickosmith, Congrats on your strong initiatives, esp during COVID! Live music can support any variety of causes, and perhaps that can increase audience draw a bit. Advertising must be heavy though, otherwise it will remain the old "family and friends" audience situation. One has to be careful that there is not a political element associated with your cause, however. That could backfire.
YouTube contains videos of great classical music performances "spiced up" by immodest attire on the soloists, etc. While I don't support the practice, it shows how desperate the field is for audience attention.
YouTube contains videos of great classical music performances "spiced up" by immodest attire on the soloists, etc. While I don't support the practice, it shows how desperate the field is for audience attention.
- musicofnote
- Posts: 367
- Joined: Jun 03, 2022
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- BrassSection
- Posts: 424
- Joined: May 11, 2022
Here in central Pennsylvania we are fortunate, there’s a local group known as Altoona Brass Collective, made up of 20+ members, many are local music educators, and many play in orchestras in their respective home areas. Top notch group, most arrangements done by one of the horn players, and the remaining by a bone player. Music is varied from classics to rock music to hymns. All concerts are free, but there is a donation basket.
Most performances are in local, often historic, churches, and some outdoor. Attendance is usually good, group gets many standing O’s. Performances last up to 2 hours, crowds seem to enjoy it. Attendees mixture of ages from young to old.
In addition, the is a community band, open to anybody interested. I’ve heard them perform and they have a good group of musicians from young to old. If I had more free time, I’d join as would my daughter and probably my grandson.
Most performances are in local, often historic, churches, and some outdoor. Attendance is usually good, group gets many standing O’s. Performances last up to 2 hours, crowds seem to enjoy it. Attendees mixture of ages from young to old.
In addition, the is a community band, open to anybody interested. I’ve heard them perform and they have a good group of musicians from young to old. If I had more free time, I’d join as would my daughter and probably my grandson.
- Cmillar
- Posts: 439
- Joined: Apr 24, 2018
Those of us who were in high school bands in the 1970's were very fortunate.
We were playing band arrangements (and 'stage band' arrangements) of the pop tunes of the day. And what great music it was! (ie: Chicago, BST, EWF, disco, excellent power rock, etc. etc.)
Totally fun to play and inpiring.
And, to top it off, we had Maynard Ferguson touring all over and playing totally exciting, accessible, and I might add, very artful music.
It was a great time to be a young musician and to be inspired.
The last generation? Not so lucky. There's not much pop music that translates well to concert or jazz bands.
What are they going to play?
Jazzed up Drake? (that's impossible....his music is too lame to begin with)
Ed Sheeran? (play a loop over and over?)
Adele? (kind of mocus)
Lizzo? (really?)
etc. etc. etc.
OK, their are good tunes by Bruno Mars and Justin Timberlake that get people grooving, but most of the top hits of today are copies of tunes or re-makes of hits and styles from 'the good old days'.
So, maybe it's time for enlightened high school band teachers to dig out some of the 'old stuff'?
Try to get the next generation inspired somehow.
Children who have parents that play a variety of music at home are very fortunate these days.
I do put some faith in the fact that there will always be some kids who find ways to discover other types of music other than what the corporate radio and the corporate streaming services want to make their money on.
We need to help those youthful musicians now more than ever.
We were playing band arrangements (and 'stage band' arrangements) of the pop tunes of the day. And what great music it was! (ie: Chicago, BST, EWF, disco, excellent power rock, etc. etc.)
Totally fun to play and inpiring.
And, to top it off, we had Maynard Ferguson touring all over and playing totally exciting, accessible, and I might add, very artful music.
It was a great time to be a young musician and to be inspired.
The last generation? Not so lucky. There's not much pop music that translates well to concert or jazz bands.
What are they going to play?
Jazzed up Drake? (that's impossible....his music is too lame to begin with)
Ed Sheeran? (play a loop over and over?)
Adele? (kind of mocus)
Lizzo? (really?)
etc. etc. etc.
OK, their are good tunes by Bruno Mars and Justin Timberlake that get people grooving, but most of the top hits of today are copies of tunes or re-makes of hits and styles from 'the good old days'.
So, maybe it's time for enlightened high school band teachers to dig out some of the 'old stuff'?
Try to get the next generation inspired somehow.
Children who have parents that play a variety of music at home are very fortunate these days.
I do put some faith in the fact that there will always be some kids who find ways to discover other types of music other than what the corporate radio and the corporate streaming services want to make their money on.
We need to help those youthful musicians now more than ever.