Olds Opera O-23
- Okknothead
- Posts: 5
- Joined: Aug 05, 2022
I’m a new member to the forum and I am looking for any information regarding my horn. I have an Olds Opera O-23 that was purchased new in 1972. According to Horn-u-copia the serial number puts it as manufactured in 1968-1969. Other than that I don’t know anything about it. I do know that I thoroughly enjoyed playing it. Any help with on line catalogs, value, rarity, etc. would be appreciated.
- BGuttman
- Posts: 7368
- Joined: Mar 22, 2018
Forum Member JohnL is our resident Olds expert. He has a site: www.itsabear.com that has a wealth of information on the various Olds models.
Full disclosure: I grew up playing an Ambassador with F (A-20) and currently own a 1925 LM (Tuning in Slide) with an 8 inch bell that is a wonderful horn.
Full disclosure: I grew up playing an Ambassador with F (A-20) and currently own a 1925 LM (Tuning in Slide) with an 8 inch bell that is a wonderful horn.
- Okknothead
- Posts: 5
- Joined: Aug 05, 2022
Thank you for the info. I’ll try to reach JohnL and get his input.
- brassmedic
- Posts: 1447
- Joined: Dec 14, 2018
It's relatively rare in the sense that it's all nickel silver, and there weren't very many all nickel silver trombones made.
- CalgaryTbone
- Posts: 1460
- Joined: May 10, 2018
Is it the nickel version? I spent my high school years in the Hartford, CT. area, and Olds Operas were fairly popular - you saw them at various events like all-state and other band festivals almost as frequently as Conn 88H's and Bach 42B's. There were also Red Brass and Yellow Brass Opera's in addition to the Nickel horns. They were also in straight and trigger versions with all of the different metals.
Jim Scott
Jim Scott
- Okknothead
- Posts: 5
- Joined: Aug 05, 2022
[quote="CalgaryTbone"]Is it the nickel version? I spent my high school years in the Hartford, CT. area, and Olds Operas were fairly popular - you saw them at various events like all-state and other band festivals almost as frequently as Conn 88H's and Bach 42B's. There were also Red Brass and Yellow Brass Opera's in addition to the Nickel horns. They were also in straight and trigger versions with all of the different metals.
Jim Scott[/quote]
It is the nickel version. I played in Oklahoma and have never seen another horn like mine in person.
Jim Scott[/quote]
It is the nickel version. I played in Oklahoma and have never seen another horn like mine in person.
- brassmedic
- Posts: 1447
- Joined: Dec 14, 2018
[quote="CalgaryTbone"]Is it the nickel version? I spent my high school years in the Hartford, CT. area, and Olds Operas were fairly popular - you saw them at various events like all-state and other band festivals almost as frequently as Conn 88H's and Bach 42B's. There were also Red Brass and Yellow Brass Opera's in addition to the Nickel horns. They were also in straight and trigger versions with all of the different metals.
Jim Scott[/quote]
I believe the red brass version was called the Symphony model and the model number was O25. 023 Should be the nickel silver version.
Jim Scott[/quote]
I believe the red brass version was called the Symphony model and the model number was O25. 023 Should be the nickel silver version.
- JohnL
- Posts: 2529
- Joined: Mar 23, 2018
Based on catalogs in my collection (which a viewable on my site) and the ones on Alan Rouse's Olds Central site, the O-23 was introduced around 1960. It's on the 1960 price list (unlike most of the entries, which just give pricing, the O-23 got a full write-up, which make me think that it was probably a new product that wasn't in the then-current catalog). It's still in the line-up as of 1970, but does not appear in the 1973 catalog.
Early listings give the bore as .547", while later listings specify .554" (the change took place sometime between the 1962 catalog and the 1966 catalog). Any listing that I've seen that gives an attachment bore indicates .565".
If yours if the the late 1960's, it should be able to use most large-shank mouthpieces without any issue (though it's still just a bit undersize). Early ones have smaller receivers (though still bigger than Euro shank); most people find that they play best with a mouthpiece that's been turned down to fit properly.
O-23's are solid nickel silver except for the valve itself, which is yellow brass (at least the ones I've seen).
Opera Family:
O-15 Opera Premiere; solid nickel silver straight tenor
O-115 Opera Fanfare; yellow brass straight tenor
O-23 Opera Premiere; solid nickel with f-attachment
O-25; solid nickel silver, red brass bell with f-attachment
After the Fanfare model was discontinued, the "Premiere" label was dropped from the O-15 and O-23 and they became just "Opera".
I've never seen any Olds literature that referred to the O-25 as the Symphony model, but that name seems to have become associated with the model somehow.
Early listings give the bore as .547", while later listings specify .554" (the change took place sometime between the 1962 catalog and the 1966 catalog). Any listing that I've seen that gives an attachment bore indicates .565".
If yours if the the late 1960's, it should be able to use most large-shank mouthpieces without any issue (though it's still just a bit undersize). Early ones have smaller receivers (though still bigger than Euro shank); most people find that they play best with a mouthpiece that's been turned down to fit properly.
O-23's are solid nickel silver except for the valve itself, which is yellow brass (at least the ones I've seen).
Opera Family:
O-15 Opera Premiere; solid nickel silver straight tenor
O-115 Opera Fanfare; yellow brass straight tenor
O-23 Opera Premiere; solid nickel with f-attachment
O-25; solid nickel silver, red brass bell with f-attachment
After the Fanfare model was discontinued, the "Premiere" label was dropped from the O-15 and O-23 and they became just "Opera".
I've never seen any Olds literature that referred to the O-25 as the Symphony model, but that name seems to have become associated with the model somehow.
- CalgaryTbone
- Posts: 1460
- Joined: May 10, 2018
[quote="brassmedic"]<QUOTE author="CalgaryTbone" post_id="185427" time="1659813154" user_id="3262">
Is it the nickel version? I spent my high school years in the Hartford, CT. area, and Olds Operas were fairly popular - you saw them at various events like all-state and other band festivals almost as frequently as Conn 88H's and Bach 42B's. There were also Red Brass and Yellow Brass Opera's in addition to the Nickel horns. They were also in straight and trigger versions with all of the different metals.
Jim Scott[/quote]
I believe the red brass version was called the Symphony model and the model number was O25. 023 Should be the nickel silver version.
</QUOTE>
Thanks! I always heard them all being referred to as "Opera's". Maybe because the nickel version was the one that was seen most often in the Hartford area back in the '70's. Was there a yellow version too? That rings a bell for me, but I'm thinking it was in an old post on the "Chat".
JS
Is it the nickel version? I spent my high school years in the Hartford, CT. area, and Olds Operas were fairly popular - you saw them at various events like all-state and other band festivals almost as frequently as Conn 88H's and Bach 42B's. There were also Red Brass and Yellow Brass Opera's in addition to the Nickel horns. They were also in straight and trigger versions with all of the different metals.
Jim Scott[/quote]
I believe the red brass version was called the Symphony model and the model number was O25. 023 Should be the nickel silver version.
</QUOTE>
Thanks! I always heard them all being referred to as "Opera's". Maybe because the nickel version was the one that was seen most often in the Hartford area back in the '70's. Was there a yellow version too? That rings a bell for me, but I'm thinking it was in an old post on the "Chat".
JS
- brassmedic
- Posts: 1447
- Joined: Dec 14, 2018
[quote="JohnL"]Based on catalogs in my collection (which a viewable on my site) and the ones on Alan Rouse's Olds Central site, the O-23 was introduced around 1960. It's on the 1960 price list (unlike most of the entries, which just give pricing, the O-23 got a full write-up, which make me think that it was probably a new product that wasn't in the then-current catalog). It's still in the line-up as of 1970, but does not appear in the 1973 catalog.
Early listings give the bore as .547", while later listings specify .554" (the change took place sometime between the 1962 catalog and the 1966 catalog). Any listing that I've seen that gives an attachment bore indicates .565".
If yours if the the late 1960's, it should be able to use most large-shank mouthpieces without any issue (though it's still just a bit undersize). Early ones have smaller receivers (though still bigger than Euro shank); most people find that they play best with a mouthpiece that's been turned down to fit properly.
O-23's are solid nickel silver except for the valve itself, which is yellow brass (at least the ones I've seen).
Opera Family:
O-15 Opera Premiere; solid nickel silver straight tenor
O-115 Opera Fanfare; yellow brass straight tenor
O-23 Opera Premiere; solid nickel with f-attachment
O-25; solid nickel silver, red brass bell with f-attachment
After the Fanfare model was discontinued, the "Premiere" label was dropped from the O-15 and O-23 and they became just "Opera".
I've never seen any Olds literature that referred to the O-25 as the Symphony model, but that name seems to have become associated with the model somehow.[/quote]
I don't see the O-25 appearing until the 1973 catalog, and I don't see it ever being called "Opera". That's interesting that it isn't listed as "Symphony". I have seen a few people here refer to it as such (as well as the Hornucopia list). Looks to me like the O-23 was dropped from the catalog the same year that the O-25 was added. Was it a replacement for the O-23?
Early listings give the bore as .547", while later listings specify .554" (the change took place sometime between the 1962 catalog and the 1966 catalog). Any listing that I've seen that gives an attachment bore indicates .565".
If yours if the the late 1960's, it should be able to use most large-shank mouthpieces without any issue (though it's still just a bit undersize). Early ones have smaller receivers (though still bigger than Euro shank); most people find that they play best with a mouthpiece that's been turned down to fit properly.
O-23's are solid nickel silver except for the valve itself, which is yellow brass (at least the ones I've seen).
Opera Family:
O-15 Opera Premiere; solid nickel silver straight tenor
O-115 Opera Fanfare; yellow brass straight tenor
O-23 Opera Premiere; solid nickel with f-attachment
O-25; solid nickel silver, red brass bell with f-attachment
After the Fanfare model was discontinued, the "Premiere" label was dropped from the O-15 and O-23 and they became just "Opera".
I've never seen any Olds literature that referred to the O-25 as the Symphony model, but that name seems to have become associated with the model somehow.[/quote]
I don't see the O-25 appearing until the 1973 catalog, and I don't see it ever being called "Opera". That's interesting that it isn't listed as "Symphony". I have seen a few people here refer to it as such (as well as the Hornucopia list). Looks to me like the O-23 was dropped from the catalog the same year that the O-25 was added. Was it a replacement for the O-23?
- brassmedic
- Posts: 1447
- Joined: Dec 14, 2018
By the way, if it's of interest to anyone, I own an O-23 and it is .547 bore.
- Posaunus
- Posts: 5018
- Joined: Mar 23, 2018
[quote="JohnL"]I've never seen any Olds literature that referred to the O-25 as the Symphony model, but that name seems to have become associated with the model somehow.[/quote]
Olds was apparently a little flaky with instrument specs (they sometimes "drifted" with time) and names.
As JohnL knows, in 1971-1972 I played a red brass bell trombone that was engraved only "Olds Opera" (no model number). It was identical to an Olds O-25 trombone that I purchased recently for nostalgia reasons. It's every bit as good as I remember the "Opera." 0.554" bore, 0.565" bore F-attachment, single rotor, 8.5" red brass bell, engraved O-25 on bell. (No mention of "Opera" or "Symphony.") Nice trombone. Awkward (to me) valve lever ergonomics.
Olds was apparently a little flaky with instrument specs (they sometimes "drifted" with time) and names.
As JohnL knows, in 1971-1972 I played a red brass bell trombone that was engraved only "Olds Opera" (no model number). It was identical to an Olds O-25 trombone that I purchased recently for nostalgia reasons. It's every bit as good as I remember the "Opera." 0.554" bore, 0.565" bore F-attachment, single rotor, 8.5" red brass bell, engraved O-25 on bell. (No mention of "Opera" or "Symphony.") Nice trombone. Awkward (to me) valve lever ergonomics.
- JohnL
- Posts: 2529
- Joined: Mar 23, 2018
[quote="brassmedic"]I don't see the O-25 appearing until the 1973 catalog, and I don't see it ever being called "Opera". That's interesting that it isn't listed as "Symphony". I have seen a few people here refer to it as such (as well as the Hornucopia list). Looks to me like the O-23 was dropped from the catalog the same year that the O-25 was added. Was it a replacement for the O-23?[/quote]
From what I can tell, Olds dropped both the O-15 and O-23 when the O-25 was introduced. I suspect Posaunus' Opera-marked O-25 was a very early one.
Someone asked if Operas were rare? Well, they're far less common than a Bach 42 or a Conn 8H/88H, but they're not "rare" in the sense that scarcity impacts value.
I've got multiple theories as to why Olds changed from .547" to .554" on the Opera, but I think the most likely is that someone decided that drawing .547" tubes for the Operas (which weren't selling all that well) and .554" tubes for the S-20/S-23 basses which were probably selling somewhat better) didn't make sense.
One thing I have never seen (nor even heard of) is a yellow brass Opera with an f-attachment. If one of those were to surface, now THAT would be rare.
A question I'd like to put out there:
Does anyone have, or has anyone ever seen, an O-23 with a factory mechanical linkage? I don't recall ever seeing one that didn't have an 88H-style string linkage.
From what I can tell, Olds dropped both the O-15 and O-23 when the O-25 was introduced. I suspect Posaunus' Opera-marked O-25 was a very early one.
Someone asked if Operas were rare? Well, they're far less common than a Bach 42 or a Conn 8H/88H, but they're not "rare" in the sense that scarcity impacts value.
I've got multiple theories as to why Olds changed from .547" to .554" on the Opera, but I think the most likely is that someone decided that drawing .547" tubes for the Operas (which weren't selling all that well) and .554" tubes for the S-20/S-23 basses which were probably selling somewhat better) didn't make sense.
One thing I have never seen (nor even heard of) is a yellow brass Opera with an f-attachment. If one of those were to surface, now THAT would be rare.
A question I'd like to put out there:
Does anyone have, or has anyone ever seen, an O-23 with a factory mechanical linkage? I don't recall ever seeing one that didn't have an 88H-style string linkage.
- brassmedic
- Posts: 1447
- Joined: Dec 14, 2018
Mine has string linkage and plastic stop plate (boooo!).
- jej
- Posts: 78
- Joined: Mar 23, 2018
I have an O-23 listed in the classifieds. It has a mechanical linkage.
- Okknothead
- Posts: 5
- Joined: Aug 05, 2022
Jej if that 0-23 you have listed is a 0.554 bore that is the first time I’ve seen photos (outside of a catalog) of a horn identical to mine. And I’ve owned mine since 1972.
- Okknothead
- Posts: 5
- Joined: Aug 05, 2022
Does anyone know where I can get the lyre music holder that goes with my horn?
- BGuttman
- Posts: 7368
- Joined: Mar 22, 2018
[quote="Okknothead"]Does anyone know where I can get the lyre music holder that goes with my horn?[/quote]
You are going to have a real problem trying to find an Olds lyre. Aftermarket lyres are available. I'd avoid the ones that have two fingers squeezed together with a screw as these can't hold a heavy music book (I've had lyre books that weighed almost 500 grams (1 pound)). If the King lyre fits on the cork barrel, it's probably the best one I've tried. There is a Conn lyre that clamps on to the straight part of the mouthpiece receiver, but no guarantee it will fit. It's usually sold with the student horns since they are most commonly the marchers. There are even lyres that clip to the bell -- OK if that's a good reading distance for you; bad for me.
You are going to have a real problem trying to find an Olds lyre. Aftermarket lyres are available. I'd avoid the ones that have two fingers squeezed together with a screw as these can't hold a heavy music book (I've had lyre books that weighed almost 500 grams (1 pound)). If the King lyre fits on the cork barrel, it's probably the best one I've tried. There is a Conn lyre that clamps on to the straight part of the mouthpiece receiver, but no guarantee it will fit. It's usually sold with the student horns since they are most commonly the marchers. There are even lyres that clip to the bell -- OK if that's a good reading distance for you; bad for me.
- Bonebrain
- Posts: 4
- Joined: Oct 10, 2024
Hi Guys and Girls.
I'm new to the forum but have been enjoying the posts as an observer for a while now.
I'd like to chime in with a request for parts.
I am after a complete gooseneck assembly for an Opera trom.
I recently purchased one in beautiful condition that had the bell crumpled in transit before it reached me.
I have sourced a bell but it is yellow brass not nickel.
After much deliberation I have decided to get the crumple repaired instead of changing to the brass bell and I thought it would be better to have the brass bell built and have both.
I would need the entire gooseneck sans bell flare.
I realize this may be a big ask, but can anyone help me out?
Thanks in advance.
I'm new to the forum but have been enjoying the posts as an observer for a while now.
I'd like to chime in with a request for parts.
I am after a complete gooseneck assembly for an Opera trom.
I recently purchased one in beautiful condition that had the bell crumpled in transit before it reached me.
I have sourced a bell but it is yellow brass not nickel.
After much deliberation I have decided to get the crumple repaired instead of changing to the brass bell and I thought it would be better to have the brass bell built and have both.
I would need the entire gooseneck sans bell flare.
I realize this may be a big ask, but can anyone help me out?
Thanks in advance.